Bombs to stop genocide in Iraq. Wtf DO WE CALL WHAT'S GOING DOWN IN GAZA?

[elehhhhna]

Wow this is Bushesque bullshit.

[NightWatcher]

1. ISIS needs a better lobbying firm to cut checks to US politicans

[Cali_Democrat]

2. I'm not sure I understand your point

are you suggesting we bomb Israel?

[LordGlenconner]

7. I have a feeling if we were bombing Israel

It would make a few folks around here pretty happy. For example, the same people who create OPs like this.

[elehhhhna]

13. I suggest we bomb nobody and the irony is off the fucking charts here

that's the point.

[LordGlenconner]

14. Of course it would be nice if the world were exactly that way

But wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Unfortunately violence has been, is, and always will be part of human nature. It is our most fundamental flaw.

[laundry_queen]

50. My ex used to say that all the time

whenever I brought up some moral stance I had. Interesting that you use it too. I guess we should never aim for anything higher, we should just say, "Oh fuck it, war happens." I'm glad I'm not THAT cynical and jaded yet. Or maybe I just realize that violence has very specific causes that CAN be addressed. By people who care about it, that is.

[elehhhhna]

77. you're my hero, l-q!!!

[SammyWinstonJack]

101. +1!

[woo me with science]

125. Third Way blase.

The moral dumpster fire.

[Ash_F]

61. You sound like a sociopath with that creepy comment

Ahh...the internet. Where one can truly let it all out.

[ReRe]

63. That's right....

.... after all, it happened in the Old Testament all the time.

[kentuck]

46. But we have to bomb "somebody"...

Them's the rules.

[rhett o rick]

20. What makes you think and say that the OP author wants to bomb Israel? No one here has advocated

bombing Israel. Are you ok with the bombing in Iraq? How about Palestine?

[ballyhoo]

39. I didn't see that either.

[SammyWinstonJack]

102. Neither did I.

[obxhead]

37. Or

we could just cut off all aid and weapons shipments. Maybe even set up a few blockades.

[sabrina 1]

129. That would be a very, very few, if any at all, since most people here oppose

and always have, bombing anyone. If you know who these few are, point them out, alert on them, and they won't be here very long.

Meantime as one of those who vehemently opposes both US and Israels 'policies', if you can call them that, of brutal invasions as a means to 'bring about peace, if I could be God for a day, I would destroy all bombs and other WMDs and if politicians want to fight, I would force them to go face to face, no army, and do it with whatever they can find around the house or garden. The rest of us could watch it on TV and bet on the winner.

I have a feeling there would be very few 'contests' considering the amount of 'courage' generally displayed by the average warmonger in the world today.

[msanthrope]

3. Are you suggesting we bomb Israel? nt

[enid602]

29. money

We just need to stop sending them money umtil they play nice.

[ancianita]

56. ISIS just swooped in, cleaned out Iraqi banks and military supplies we sent to Iraq's government.

[elehhhhna]

78. Debunked.Not true after all.

[ancianita]

82. Debunked by whom? I'm trying to get the facts straight. VICE reports don't seem to help. Not sure

I trust them as anything but a sensationalizing media org, anyway.

[elehhhhna]

84. google, i'm tired.

[ancianita]

87. Sorry. I'll keep researching. Found lots more stuff in wikipedia than anywhere else so far. Thanks.

[rhett o rick]

41. What? Strawman via question. nm

[msongs]

4. ISIS does not "buy" billions in weapons after we give them the money up front nt

[Fred Sanders]

5. Orwellian is another word for the sheer balls of the mass media.

To be fair Obama said "potential genocide", Gaza is potential genocide while in actual progress.

[elehhhhna]

8. and our CINC now, imo

HE said genocide.

[HERVEPA]

52. It's fucking not genocide. If it were, there'd be hundreds of thousands of dead people in Gaza.

Words matter.

[blackspade]

55. So hundreds of thousands starving...

And without shelter, water, and medicine is not genocide?
What about the targeting of shelter, schools, and homes?

What does the body count have to be?
Do they only count if the deaths happen over short time?

Yes, words do matter. So do definitions.

[Fred Sanders]

65. He would prefer the term "mowing the grass", reducing the value of human life to that of plant life

[enid602]

95. siege

Seven years of siege, and little land to grow food for almost 2 million people. Maybe some of those 'terror tunnels' were used to smuggle in food and pampers? UN facilities bombed, and US charities denied entrance by the Israeli authorities. The main power plant bombed, to ensure there's no power for cell phones and pc's. So much for Pallywood. I fully support Obama's airlift to the people stranded on the mountain in Erbil, Iraq. We need to do the same for those stuck in Gaza.

[notadmblnd]

76. Hitler and the Nazis didn't kill 6 million Jews + in one day

I Imagine that was the final total after Germany's defeat.

You're right though, words do matter. Not only those said/written, but also some words not said/written.

[oberliner]

89. About 11 million people over a period of 4 years

Over a million children.

Two-thirds of all the Jews living in Europe (9 million) were killed during that time frame.

Are you really comfortable making this comparison?

[notadmblnd]

90. I may not have the numbers right, but my point is that it didn't happen in one day

And if I'm not mistaken I did say 6 million Plus. So yes, yes I am comfortable

[oberliner]

100. So you think Palestinians may be in danger of that same fate?

You see some evidence pointing in that direction?

[notadmblnd]

113. Yes.

[elehhhhna]

80. Bibi's not done yet, oh great decider of genocide/not genocide.

[MFM008]

126. hundreds are dead

gen·o·cide

/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun
1. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre, annihilation


how large does large have to be?

[Skidmore]

6. I understand your point

completely. Crossed my mind more than once today.

[Fred Sanders]

9. Some do not want to understand because it would rip their hypocrisy apart..they will deflect.

[Cha]

19. Except we created this shit in Iraq under bush and the President is trying to do the best thing

possible to help.

hopemountain makes some good points..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5356924

[Skidmore]

21. Indeed.

I've seen Bush's face on the teevee so many times today. I just feel angry. Disgusted and angry. So many bad actors over such a long period of time has created this black hole in the ME which just sucks the life out of the world.

[Cha]

24. Oh dear.. see what I'm missing by not having a tv!

[Jefferson23]

30. You're better off, especially when Cheney is on..ugh. n/t

[Skidmore]

31. I have stifled the urge more than once today to

throw something besides a pillow at mine.

[Cha]

47. See.. I turned off all corporate news in 2002.. ya'll have stronger stomach's than I. I wanted to

crash myself through the damn tv.

[obxhead]

42. No, we did not.

We upset a violent balance.

We removed a brutal dictator that had control of a region with 1000's of years of war and turmoil.

We were wrong.

We can not fix it.

Iraqis are the ONLY people that can fix Iraq.

[Cha]

48. Yes, bush created the shit.

[obxhead]

53. Bush 1 did

Arguably, Reagan did.

However that's not the point.

Someones got to END it.

Obviously Obama is content with continuing it with just planes and bombs so our next President can make the hard choice of boots on the ground.

I voted to END our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, not continue them.

[ZombieHorde]

93. So did all in Congress who voted for it. nt

[elehhhhna]

81. Bombing for peace AGAIN, eh?

[Cha]

85. Oh yes, elehhhhhnaaaa "bushesque" and all that shit.. wah wah wah wah you got your talking

point down whether it makes any fucking sense or not.

[elehhhhna]

88. what a thoughtful response

[sheshe2]

91. and your OP was...

Bombs to stop genocide in Iraq. Wtf DO WE CALL WHAT'S GOING DOWN IN GAZA?

Wow this is Bushesque bullshit.

So very profound.....

[ZombieHorde]

92. True, but the US does fund the Israel/Palistine conflict. nt

[leftstreet]

10. Are there any US military contractors in Gaza?

I mean 'US personnel'

[DocwillCuNow]

11. +1000

[malaise]

12. Asked hubby the same thing

and apparently there's no need for a humanitarian approach for the Palestinians.

[awoke_in_2003]

15. Mowing the grass...

at least that is purportedly what it is called over there

[hopemountain]

16. the palestinians do not want our help

nor have they asked for it. nor do we have any military presence there.

the iraqi asked for help to stop the genocide. and the u.s. has personnel there.

what do you want? that we should start world war 3 and bomb the israelis? neither side of this conflict wants it to end in a peaceable compromise to stop the killing.

the president is making a very clear distinction with this aid with regard to conditions for involvment.

the "bushesque bullshit" statement is wholly incorrect. but you knew this.

[Cha]

18. Mahalo hopemountain.. you said it so much better than I.. just added that

the US created this horrible mess in Iraq and the President is trying to do the best thing possible.

[Violet_Crumble]

97. And I just want to add something else...

In response to the 'What do you want?' question. What I want is for the US to stop funding Israel's military machine and to show some backbone and speak up against the massive loss of civilian life in Gaza. Instead all I see is the American Congress passing totally one-side resolutions supporting everything Israel does and not saying one single word about the civilian victims...

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. +1!

[840high]

23. ...^ that

[sheshe2]

25. ^^^This^^^

Exactly this! Thanks hopemountain, well said.

[Violet_Crumble]

98. But it was wrong. They don't ask for US assistance because the US is complicit...

I mean, what would the point be?

[Jefferson23]

32. The Palestinians do not want our help? Please explain. n/t

[swilton]

36. Precisely which Iraqis asked for our help

It's not like there is one voice in the mess created after Hussein's overthrow.

[obxhead]

45. Why would the Palestinians want our help?

Every time we help an Israeli fires a bullet stamped "made in America".

If I were a Palestinian, every cry of Fuck Israel would mean Fuck America!

[woo me with science]

79. Perhaps help in the form of not arming and funding those who are carpet bombing them?

Perhaps?

We certainly do have a military presence there. See post 45. Every time one of our dollars funds a bomb or a bullet blasting into a child, that's a pretty damned significant military presence.

Maybe it never occurred to them to ask our help, since we are actively helping those who are slaughtering them.

[Cha]

17. Except the United States Under Bush Created this Shit in Iraq and President Obama is

trying to help in the best way possible. "bushesque" my

[hopemountain]

22. agreed, cha ~

bush created the iraqi mess by dividing up the country of iraq and pitting her people against one another, disrupting the tried and true tribal traditions of compromise - as way to control the country's oil resources.

we can also see how those tactics are being played out right here in our own country ... the slivering and mongering is nonstop.

[Cha]

26. It's unbearably sad what happened 11 years ago when bush Bombed the shit out of Iraq.. so

many of us knew the giant can of snakes he would unleash. This is a horrible situation.

Mahalo for your post, hopemountain

[former9thward]

34. That is somewhat a revision of history.

It was the British and French after WW I who drew the lines and divided up the area pitting people against one another. Saddam Hussein kept it together through a brutal dictatorship. Bush broke it apart and now we live with the results. To paint Iraq as ideal before Bush is a distortion.

[Rex]

28. It could also be said the POTUS is trying to help fix a horrible war crime

committed by his predecessor. Even if people don't want to admit to it, we are largely responsible for what is going on in Iraq and I think President Obama not only knows that but would like to show how different Ds and Rs are in handling a crisis.

Of course we are all free to sit here and watch on TV as ISIS murders 40,000 people...glad to see the POTUS is doing something about it.

Very insulting to say it is 'bushesque'...nothing even close to Shock and Awe. This time, we have a valid REASON for being in Iraq.

[pampango]

27. Or what has gone on for 3 years in Syria. n/t

[Baclava]

33. 100,000 dead Syrians don't count - the Jews weren't killing them

seriously

[riverwalker]

49. we are not bankrolling Assad

we are Israel.
False analogy.

[Baclava]

51. I didn't say anything about Assad - we are heading for a regional war

much more complicated and serious

[obxhead]

35. POTENTIAL genocide

Bombing in Iraq to stop potential genocide, while we supply weapons and coordinates to Israel to COMMIT genocide.

GObama!

This is exactly what I was thinking when I voted for hope and change.

[swilton]

38. ++++++

[ballyhoo]

40. +++++++++++

[RufusTFirefly]

43. Kerry's remarks were mind-bogglingly ironic

"ISIL's Israel's campaign of terror against the innocent, including Yezedi and Christian minorities, and its grotesque and targeted acts of violence bear all the warning signs and hallmarks of genocide. For anyone who needed a wake-up call, this is it."

[oberliner]

44. Are you suggesting that genocide is taking place in Gaza?

Is that a fair read on your post?

[RufusTFirefly]

58. "...this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza."

Excerpts from remarks by Israeli deputy Knesset speaker Moshe Feiglin in an open letter to Netanyahu:

“What is required now is for Israel to internalize the fact that Oslo is finished: That this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza. There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.”

...

2. Definition of the tasks: Conquest of the entire Gaza Strip and elimination of all fighting forces and their supporters.

...

4. Definition of war ethics: “Woe to the evildoer, and woe to his neighbor”

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... The entire letter is chilling. I left out many of the worst parts.

[oberliner]

60. He is one of 10 deputy speakers

From the far right fringe of an already right wing party.

Ahmed Tibi is another of the 10 deputy speakers. His opinions on the subject could not be more opposite.

[RufusTFirefly]

62. Thanks. I feel so relieved

I trust that Netanyahu and the IDF will ignore Feiglin's remarks and continue to gently prod the people of Gaza as before.

[oberliner]

69. It should be slightly

I mean, at least he isn't in charge.

[Ash_F]

64. The far right is the fringe in the US too, but it still dictates policy

The far right is historically more powerful than its number in all countries.

[onenote]

118. So far right crazies that want to lock up gays and deport all illegals are setting US policy?

Who knew?

[Ash_F]

127. Your name is pretty apt. /nt

[TexasProgresive]

54. What are the odds

if the U.S.Airforce dropped humanitarian aid in Gaza and the West Bank that they would come under Israeli fire?

[oberliner]

66. Hundreds of truckloads of humanitarian aid cross into Gaza from Israel daily

You could even donate if you want.

[elehhhhna]

83. oh my

[oberliner]

86. Here's a link if you are interested in helping

https://www.unrwausa.org/donate

[TexasProgresive]

96. I'm talking about during this current operation.

Like the food and supplies that were dropped to the Kurds pre Iraq war and recently to those peole caught up in the mountains.

The airdropped aid would be to supplement the "diet" imposed by Israel.

So, my question is still, if the U.S. did food airdrops into Gaza would they face A.A. fire from Israel? You understand this is a hypothetical question, but is nonetheless begging an answer.

[oberliner]

99. "Despite the end of the ceasefire, aid is getting through..."

"Despite the end of the ceasefire, aid is getting through and many of our member agencies are still working on the ground. But with the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, they urgently need more money to scale up their life-saving work."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28715052

[TexasProgresive]

105. You should run for office

because you can dance around a question with the best of them.

I can see that you will not answer my question so this discussion is at an end.

[onenote]

117. As I pointed out below, humanitarian aid is getting to Gaza during this crisis

$47 million from the US. Additional amounts from other countries. Some comes through Egypt, some through Israel, which has accommodated aid getting to Gazans by, among other things, providing for temporary cease fires.

Remind me again, does ISIS offer cease fires so humanitarian aid gets to the Yazidi?

The facts are inconvenient to your position, but they're still facts.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-send-47m-humanitarian-aid-gaza-strip-205105077--politics.html
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/gaza/369201--italy-sends-emergency-aid-to-war-torn-gaza
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/europe/13020-scandinavian-countries-condemn-israels-disproportionate-violence-sends-millions-to-aid-palestinians
http://venezuela-us.org/2014/08/06/venezuela-sending-16-tons-of-humanitarian-aid-to-the-gaza-strip/
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13103-jordanian-aid-convoy-arrives-in-gaza

[madokie]

57. Whats happening in Gaza is with Gods blessing,

And that my friend is the difference.

[calilama]

67. God has nothing to do with it

The Palestinians walked away from the peace process or at least that's what President Clinton is on record saying....I'm sure you can find some anti Semitic piece of shit to twist that story as well...there will be peace between Israel and Palestine the moment the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist...just as Jordan and Egypt have done

How fucking complicated is this?

You say you plan on killing every Jew in Israel and you fire hundreds of missiles at civilian areas you deserve to get your ass kicked...if Hamas had ISIL's military skillset there would be 6,000,000 more dead Jews...

[madokie]

68. You haven't a clue

and I won't bother trying to clue you in either.
If you can't figure it out on your own there is nothing I can do to fix that.
Peace
Have a good evening.

Oh I forgot to remind you I'm none religious. don't believe in a supreme being or an after life. I like it this way too.
For a tip, according to the bible the Jews are Gods chosen people. LOL Thats why they get a pass on all this carnage.

[oberliner]

70. according to the bible the Jews are Gods chosen people

What does that mean exactly?

[madokie]

71. Ask the religious people

Not me. I don't believe in any of that crap.

[oberliner]

72. To be fair - you brought it up

You must think it means something to them.

[madokie]

73. Matters not that I said that

I speak truth on this subject. If you can't handle that I don't know what to tell you.

[oberliner]

74. I'm just not sure what point you were making

Doesn't every religious person kind of view themselves that way?

[riverwalker]

59. war crimes for sure

seems most of the injuries documented are devastating head wounds. Snipers? #GazaUnderAttack
the photos are unforgettable
The girl in the wheelchair who could not escape the bomb haunts me. Her mutilated body covered with a blanket by her brother, to allow some dignity. Her wheelchair twisted and mangled. Him sitting next to her in shock and grief, he could not save her.

The little boy who lost both eyes, and both his parents. What lies ahead for him?

[Marrah_G]

110. War crimes no one will ever be held accountable for

[KoKo]

75. Recommend...Hypocrisy of the situation is incredible..

All day CNN is saying "Genocide in Iraq." Yet not a mention of GAZA.

[Chathamization]

94. Yep. People here got upset when "genocide" was used to describe far more civilians dying in Gaza.N/T

[onenote]

116. You really want to make this about numbers?

It is estimated that there are between 600,000 and 700,000 Yazidi in the world. ISIS has already killed at least 500. There are approximately 40,000 that will die in the next few weeks if ISIS gets to them or they don't get aid. Moreover, ISIS has made it clear that they will kill any other Yazidis that they come across. In Gaza, 2000 of 1.8 million Palestinians (including some disputed number of combatants) have been killed in the current conflict with Israel. Another 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and 1.5 million in Israel are not under assault. You can do the math. (And remember, you're the one that made it about numbers).

[woo me with science]

130. [phone]

[oberliner]

103. Genocide is not happening in Gaza

People of DU please stop with this nonsense.

[SammyWinstonJack]

106. ...

[onenote]

107. People who are unaware of the legal and historical meanings of genocide use that term for

what's happening in Gaza. Or people who assume things about Gaza that aren't true. Or who simply use the term to further a political agenda.

Genocide has a specific definition in international law: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The "in part" aspect has been clarified in international law to mean a substantial portion of the group so as to threaten the viability of its continued existence.

What is happening in Gaza is horrible. But if one thinks that it is genocide, then one must think that what happens in virtually every armed conflict is genocide. One must think that the Germans were the victims of genocide when the British firebombed Dresden. That the British were the victims of genocide when the Germans bombed London. That the Japanese were the victims of genocide when the United States dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those actions killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of civilians and left enormous numbers of people homeless. But they weren't genocide.

As is the case in most areas that are locus of an armed conflict, Gaza is a horrible place to be. Even before the conflict, it was hardly paradise. But despite the blockade, which undoubtedly made conditions worse, it was not the hellhole some seem to assume it was.

Populations undergoing genocide don't grow. The population of Gaza has been growing, even during the blockade, at a rate far above the international average. Infant mortality in Gaza is half that of the international average and the birthrate is well above the average.

Populations undergoing genocide don't have positive growth in gross domestic product. WHile the blockade has set back economic development in the occupied territories, it has not stopped it cold. According to the official Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, from 2008 to 2012, GDP in Gaza and the West Bank grew from 1.17 billion to 1.72 billion. During 2012, GDP in Gaza alone grew at a faster rate than GDP in the West Bank (6.6% v. 5.6%). GDP growth continued during 2013, but at a slower rate.

And this assumes that Gaza is somehow separate from the other occupied territories (West Bank and East Palestine). If Israel is pursuing a policy of genocide against Palestinians, it is hard to explain how it is that there is no armed conflict in West Bank. It is hard to explain how the 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs in Israel not only are not being killed but, in fact, can become Israeli citizens, can vote and elect representatives to the Israeli government (there are around a dozen Palestinian Arabs in the Knesset) or serve on the Israeli Supreme Court.

I know I will be accused of minimizing the horror that is currently Gaza. I recognize that it is horrible. I agree that it merits international condemnation. But the devastation rendered on the people in Dresden, London, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and untold other locations also was horrific. But they were not genocide. And neither is what is happening in Gaza.

[elehhhhna]

109. Oh maybe it's just Nationcide. So, if you happen to

terrorize and kill Palestinians it's a coincidence rather than genocide?

[onenote]

114. Are West Bank Palestinians or Palestinians in East Jerusalem or Israel being killed/terrorized?

Last edited Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

I've made it clear any number of times that the goal should be negotiations leading to the a two state solution. But those that label the armed conflict that is occurring in Gaza as "genocide" do so out of ignorance or in pursuit of whatever political agenda they are pursuing.

[bahrbearian]

108. When do the people of Gaza get their humanitarian aid air drop?

[Marrah_G]

111. All day long in the form of bombs.... They are "helping" to save Gazans from Hamas...

....By killing them. Freedom is death or death is freedom or some shit like that.

[onenote]

115. They get it overland from the US and other countries.

Sometimes the facts are inconvenient to a particular narrative, but it doesn't change the facts.


They get it from the US
http://news.yahoo.com/us-send-47m-humanitarian-aid-gaza-strip-205105077--politics.html

They get it from other countries.
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/gaza/369201--italy-sends-emergency-aid-to-war-torn-gaza

And they get it during cease fires that allow the safe distribution of this aid. In case you haven't noticed, ISIS isn't into cease fires.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. In Gaza, we call it "collateral damage", "unfortunate mistakes", "precision bombing".

And, give the killers more weapons to provide the "collateral damage", "unfortunate mistakes", and "precision bombing".

[Boom Sound 416]

119. FAIL

[woo me with science]

120. Foreign policy does not change from administration to administration.

The deep state is continuous.
Secret government is continuous.
The MIC is continuous.

[Sheepshank]

121. so why are you deliberately ignoring the safety of American Assets in your statement?

having trouble drawing a parallel between that and the conflict in Gaza?

Are they EXACTLY the same thing and should be treated in EXACTLY the same manner?


Shheeeesh, the one size fits all commentary is a huge, huge fail!

[riseabove]

122. Huge fail? Lol, I guess we can't evacuate the few advisors we have? Obama said he would...

If after bombing the crap out of people and sticking our nose in others peoples business didn't work first, as usual.

He said he would evacuate them, why not just do it, so we don't have to start bombing?

[Sheepshank]

123. yup huge fail. They are NOT the same and agreements and policies are NEVER one size fits all.

Iraq asked for help, US has no agreements with Isis. The issues and terms are NOT the same. To pretend they are IS a huge fail.

FWIW, I'm not advocating for Israel I'm simply stating that actions in one part of the world is never an excuse for identical action in another. The merits of it's own situation must stand.

Are you suggesting USA must advance air strikes towards Israel?

[woo me with science]

124. Bushesque bullshit.

Kicking again for a succinct and spot on post.

[Unvanguard]

128. Horrible, immoral, unwise, and at times amounting to war crimes, but not genocide

And in terms of immediate risk to human life, just in cold, quantitative terms, at least an order of magnitude less serious than the threat posed by ISIS (and that's a conservative estimate).

[woo me with science]

131. kick