We broke it, we buy it? Bullshit.

[Jackpine Radical]

I can understand the implications in a china shop, but what the fuck does that mean in the context of the Middle East, anyhow? How do we "buy" a country, or a region? Who's the "seller?" What, exactly, would be "sold?"

Maybe people mean something like "You break it, you fix it." But there are some things that you just can't fix, especially if your only tool is a wrecking ball.

We supposedly went into Vietnam to keep people safe from Godless Commies. We went into Iraq to keep everyone safe from Saddam. We all know how well that worked.

I could maybe see evacuating the victims of an ongoing genocide, finding places to relocate them where they can live decent lives. But blowing the shit out of one people to save another group never works. Has never worked. Always makes things worse. For every "enemy" we blow up, we make 10 new enemies.

[Scootaloo]

1. So does the US then have no obligation to the people of hte nations it has destroyed?

That's what the term means, when applied like this. We destroyed them. we are obligated then, to rebuild.

No, that does not mean "bomb the shit out of someone else," but it DOES mean "Don't stand by and let some assholes slaughter vulnerable people."

[Jackpine Radical]

5. I could see evacuating threatened minorities & relocating them.

Maybe bringing them here as we did with Hmong and Somali groups. However, I don't think bombing anyone is the answer.

[Scootaloo]

10. Just minorities? So by definition, do the very least we can for the fewest people

Even though we're the ones that made the entire populace so vulnerable, even though it is our funding, training, and arming being turned on them by these conquest-bent bandits we hired?

[Jackpine Radical]

15. What would you do? What would make it better?

Yes, we did unforgivable things, and we should make amends if we could, but I don't know how to fix it. Bombing more people does not seem to be the answer. Maybe a UN action, financed by us but controlled by multinational agreement, would be useful.

We have done a lot of harm in the world, to our own people as well as to many others. Central America comes to mind, for example. I hate it; I'm sickened by it. But these things are only symptoms of the disease of imperialism that has driven us for most of the last century. Until we make a massive shift in the soul of our nation, these things will keep on happening.

[Scootaloo]

23. First, yes, military action against ISIS to protect the people of Iraq, Syria, and wherever

However this does not mean "throw bombs at it." This lazy thinking, that air power alone will carry us, is a relic of the cold war - and even then, it was obsolete, as the Vietnamese showed us, and as Israel is learning right now. ISIS is out to capture territory. Bombing does not prevent that, it - at best - degrades infrastructure. At worst it just kills a lot of people to no benefit.

No, there needs to be a ground push to recapture territory. and yes, it needs to be a coalition - but not the US, France, Russia, all the white christian colonial powers coming in and handing down mandates like emperors. Rather, the US needs to shed its binary view, of white hats and black hats. When it comes to ISIS, Syria and Iran are on the same side we are. And for all their distrust towards the Syrians and Iranians, Iraq is going to trust them more than it would the UK or Australia or whoever from Far Far Away.

Iraqi ground troops in front. Syrian and Iranian allies on the sides, with the US providing intelligence, some training, and occasional air support. Bring in Turkey as well, that'll help smooth it over.

At the same time, bring to the UN all the collected evidence of the Saudis and gulf states fomenting this group. Bring the culpability to their doorstep. They'll squeeze off the tap before the word "sanctions" ever has to be uttered.

Push Isis bck, and in the wake, begin rebuilding iraq- call on money and aid from every nation that jumped in woth hte "coalition of the willing" - don't forget Poland! - to do so. teh US wasn't the only country that broke Iraq, after all.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Given the ethnic problems in the region, I'm not at all optimistic

that we can somehow establish any sort of lasting peace there. I sometimes think that the only way out is to abandon all the old colonial lines and let the ethnic groups regroup among themselves and form self-determined nations. But nobody's gonna do that, and so the killing goes on fueled by new hatreds piling up on top of the old ones.

[Divernan]

18. Do you not understand the difference between the Marshall Plan and continued bombing?

[Scootaloo]

21. Do you not read posts before replying to them?

[Divernan]

22. It all comes down to your supporting bombing the shit out of people, i.e, more war.

[Scootaloo]

24. Which is exactly the opposite of what I said in my post

I support intelligent and measured military action to protect civilians. I supported it in Yugoslavia, and I would have supported it in many other places as well. There's a difference between defensive action and offensive action, and the primary question isn't what I endorse or not, but rather whether the seated administration can tell the difference any better than the previous 43 ever ould.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. You break it, you pay for it.

That doesn't mean you 'own' whatever it is you broke, especially if it was never merchandise in the first place.

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. rec!

[malaise]

4. It's all bullshit bro

Loot and plunder - just change the exhausted narrative

[PowerToThePeople]

6. Not a china shop. A used car lot.

Yes, we thought is was a reputable place. Turned out, not so much.

Where is the "better business bureau" we can have intervene on our behalf?

[IronGate]

11. Still using the subtle insult against President Obama?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025357861#post23

[arcane1]

7. It's a rhetorical device to trick us into accepting the status quo

Although we did "buy" it in the sense of selling off all the country's industries to foreign corporations, with absolutely no trade or labor protections. But surely no one in the country would be upset by that

[Proud Public Servant]

8. Does this sound better?

"You created the problem? Congrats -- it's now your problem."

Because that's what happened. Saddam was his own special brand of nasty, but he was a secular strongman who kept Iraq relatively harmless to us and relatively stable (with an educated middle class, a functioning electrical grid, and everything). He was a check on both Iran and Saudi Arabia; he was useful. But we blew that up, and are reaping the whirlwind. We broke it. We bought it.

If that upsets you, ask yourself this: do you want to live in a U.S. where we take moral responsibility for our fuck-ups, or a U.S. where we just do what we want with impunity and consequences be damned? Because the difference between those two attitudes is the difference between our two parties, or at least the dividing line between the two sides of the political spectrum.

[lunasun]

26. +1

[Chathamization]

9. You break it, you bomb it. N/T

[4139]

12. So, no welfare, no SS, no Medicaid, no Medicare .....

Survival of the fittest!



Hmmm, to whom much is given, much is expected

[bigtree]

13. like I told one poster here

. . . you don't bring the bull back into the china shop when you're supposedly cleaning it all up.

[pansypoo53219]

14. because leaving afghanistan in the 80's really worked out well. i say if the GOP wants action. the

TAXES revert to pre-reagan. the GOP can't have tax cuts AND WAR. this time it gets paid for.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. The Reaganistas were so clever with their financing of Islamic fundies

against the Russians.

[leftstreet]

17. And fuck the "we" bullshit

Multinational corporations and military contractors, and their CEOligarchic heads are not "we" the people

DURec

[woo me with science]

33. +1 And meanwhile, we can't even get a transportation bill

without "pension smoothing." We can't even take care of the basics at home without stealing from ordinary Americans, but we have billions for bombs.

[abelenkpe]

19. We are experts at fixing things with bombs

Not sure where we're getting the money for this though. Seems like just last year we were so poor we has to cut food stamps and unemployment and meals on wheels. Hell, we were so poor cutting social security was discussed. (Only for future recipients of course) But money for bombing Iraq? No difficulties.

[Octafish]

20. It's worse than that.

No only do "We the People" pay for what somebody else broke, we have to pay for what they stole.

[woo me with science]

27. +1

[LeftyMom]

25. The dissolusion of Iraq as curently constituted is inevitable.

Borders drawn for colonial convenience enclose people of different ethnic and groups, and they regard themselves as members of those groups and not of a nationality. Many do feel allied to religious and ehnic affiliations that cross national boundaries. Sunni Arabs with Syria, Kurds with parts of Turkey and Iran, etc.

Only another strongman or a new colonial regime will forestall this, and even then a Kurdish state is likely inevitable, which wreck the rest because they're sitting on almost all of the oil.

We really can't do fuck all to stop this.

[another_liberal]

28. Since we now own it (Iraq) . . .

It's ours to give back to the Iraqis, right?

Anyone else think that's a good idea?

[onecaliberal]

30. The people in that country were not

Fighting to control the government before bush illegally invaded Iraq.

[Jackpine Radical]

31. No, but they were under the thumb of Saddam.

The man was a monster who kept Iraq glued together by main force and brutality. I would not argue against that. The problem is that we went in there with our eyes on the oil, a toxic dose of hubris, and no understanding of the dynamics of the situation. There was nothing we could do to better anybody's life, any intervention--especially with no ethnic awareness--was doomed to disaster, and the results were sadly predictable.

[onecaliberal]

34. I agree with everything you said.

I protested against the war in the street before it started. There were plenty of people who predicted it would be a cluster fuck to go in there.
The fact is bush did illegally invade and we have caused a hell on earth for that country.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. The price of gas was dropping....

......nuff said.

[woo me with science]

35. K&R