General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's important to notice the complexity of prostitution.
One of the constant difficulties with the debate about prostitution is that it is almost always couched as a debate about prostitution as such: is "prostitution" exploitative or abusive? Should "prostitution" be legalized or decriminalized?
But prostitution/sex work is a widely varied phenomenon. There is street prostitution. There are brothels. There are sex workers who find customers and arrange encounters over the Internet. Some work for other people; some are self-employed. They make widely varied amounts of money and face different levels of compulsion and coercion (from physical coercion to economic necessity to just wanting additional disposable income). Their different circumstances of work also afford them different levels of opportunity to vet potential clients for risk of being cheated or being robbed or being assaulted. And those different circumstances also pose different social costs; it's one thing to live in a community where there is a lot of street prostitution, another where sex work is mostly done invisibility through online arrangements. (You could well live in such a community already.)
This is part of what makes prostitution hard to study. (How could you possibly go about finding a representative sample?) And it is part of what drives the emotional tenor of this debate, because anyone of any ideological standpoint can find people who fit their preferred narrative. There are people who fit the libertarian view: "I have the freedom to sell my body for sex so I can make some more money." There are people who fit the left-wing harm reduction view: people (often part of vulnerable and marginalized social groups) who engage in survival sex and for whom legal obstacles to their work tend to endanger and make things worse. And there are people who fit the left-wing feminist abolitionism view: people for whom prostitution is little more than institutionalized rape and sex slavery.
You might think that this way of framing the issue favors the "legalize and regulate" solution: why not just make it legal and regulate it to eliminate the bad aspects? But the problem is that this proposal may overestimate the ability of the government to effectively regulate prostitution. Prostitution is still intensely socially stigmatized, especially for people who work in it themselves, so legalization by itself doesn't move it "aboveground" such as to make it easy to administer regulations. The regulations legislatures and government bureaucrats draw up don't always have much connection to the actual lives of those people, so they may be ignored and much of the industry left in a legal gray area. Mistrust of government and police doesn't go away with legalization (nor should it, because government and police often behave abusively toward marginalized groups of people). And coercive sex trafficking by all appearances is still profitable enough post-legalization that "legalize and regulate" doesn't stop it. So it is far from obvious that there is a regulatory scheme available to effectively alleviate sexual coercion and other negative aspects of prostitution, and insofar as legalization amounts to a grant of permission for (almost exclusively) men to purchase sex, legalization can make those negative aspects worse by increasing demand.
But abolitionism is problematic too. Obviously abolitionism is appropriate for cases of coercion. But that is not all prostitution. Most obviously, abolitionism hurts anybody who sees sex work as their best option in their circumstances. It reinforces social stigma (which, even under the Swedish model that only criminalizes purchasers, tends to target sex workers too). For those sex workers who have some ability to control the circumstances of their work, it limits their flexibility, by imposing legal risks on customers and on third parties (landlords, banks) that make them more anxious and less cooperative. It licenses abusive behavior by officials and police, who, whatever the official ideology of the law, rarely tend to make the actual well-being of people in prostitution their priority.
The point here is not to say what policy approach you should support. I don't have the answers. And maybe there is no good answer as long as our society is so deeply suffused with patriarchy and sexual shame. One minimalist answer: it is definitely true (and should be a point of consensus) that no one should be criminalizing or shaming the people who work in prostitution. And whatever policy approach you advocate beyond that, be aware of the people whose interests you might be neglecting and whose voices you might be silencing.
BainsBane
(53,012 posts)Warpy
(111,138 posts)They're the one who recruit desperate, thrown away kids with sweet talk and drugs. They're the ones importing women from overseas. They're the ones sending prostitutes into residential areas knowing the johns will follow and not giving a shit that women and children in that area will have to put up with jackasses who try to grab them off the street, thinking everybody in the area has gone pro.
They're at the center of all problems surrounding prostitution and the ones who make all the money.
It wouldn't be that hard to track them, just go through the records of who is bailing out all the women (and men) taken into custody for prostitution.
Anti prostitution laws haven't worked well. Anti john laws haven't been tried here and it's very unclear whether or not they'd work, either, except by making them a little more subtle in the kind of neighborhood I live in. We might not need them once the pimps were out of business, especially if pimping were treated as harshly as it should be, the ruin of so many lives putting them into prison for a very long time.
Unvanguard
(4,588 posts)Yes, you want to get rid of people who abuse and exploit. But anti-pimping laws (like Canada's ban on "living on the avails of prostitution," recently struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada) can prevent sex workers from working with other people to help them protect themselves or vet customers.
And, again, it's the same problem you see with the issue as a whole: how do you figure out who is and who is not a "pimp"? To the extent you liberalize the rule, do you make it easier to exploit and coerce people? And to the extent you make the rule stricter, do you make it harder for people to do sex work in relative safety? No easy answers.
ismnotwasm
(41,965 posts)IF prostitution were a respected profession with schools to learn in. A young adult choice to be made; if if so much of it wasn't heteronormative and youth based( not all all of it is by any means-- but a lot) I'd be more supportive of it as a profession. As it is the Nordic model seems the best solution at this time. Perhaps that will change if humans mature sexually and economic equity for women actually is obtained
I think part of the excitement of procuring a prostitute is the 'dirty' part of it-- like a bad joke. And the perceived power over a human body. There are too many countries and too many poor women for it to seen as or supported as 'legitimate' legal or not, in the eyes of much of the countries involved.
And then there is this while we hear at DU debate the issue, the assault on women's reproductive rights continue. Quite frankly, I can't believe how that is simply ignored.
BainsBane
(53,012 posts)is maddening, particularly given the characters involved.
I certainly don't have the answers either, but I felt like part of the story was being ignored. Your testimony in HOF is powerful. I'm so glad you came through life on the street to become the woman you are today and help the rest of us understand some of those experiences.
Unvanguard
(4,588 posts)The issue ought to be how to achieve justice for and protect the well-being of the people who are within it. I don't care about whether the people who want to purchase sex can do so. And I agree that the desire to do so is often wrapped up in messed-up cultural views of sexual power and entitlement.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I think it would take a very different society and culture than the one we have. And I'm not talking the sort of thing you can "tear down' with some slogans and shit, we're talking about deep-rooted civilizational social order shit.
Sacred prostitution used to be a thing, in many societies. North Europe... was never such a society. Christian Europe, even less so. protestant christian northern Europe? Shit they'd have made genitals illegal if they could (and they sometimes tried!) These are the roots of the culture of the united states, however, and that's simply not going to change with some Abbie Hoffman stuff. nah, it'd take a shift in civilizational dominance... like... if the Yanomami took over the western world or something, who the fuck knows.
Point is, we can't do it with the cultural system we have in place now, and reinventing the system is so close to impossible that even Harry Turtledove couldn't write it. it might change on its own, history is fluid after all... But i think it's a moot point at hte present
redqueen
(115,103 posts)This
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I made a point in the other thread, I think the economic/exploitation issues would be best addressed (as they would across the board, in many areas) in our society with things like a livable minimum wage and a solid social safety net. At least for starts.
Give the people at the bottom more options to make their own choices.
Unvanguard
(4,588 posts)The more social security people have, the less vulnerable they are to exploitation and the more power they have over their circumstances. One good way to help break the binary of problematic policy choices.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)Here's where I stand: I have never prostituted myself. I have never paid for sex. I have never (knowingly) had sex with a prostitute. However, I have known a couple of porn girls, a rub n' tug girl (massage followed by handjob, widely tolerated in Australia), my SO was a phone sex operator, I write erotica and I once lived on the same street as a brothel.
Your BDFL (Benevolent Dictator For Life) says that in order to offer sex for sale, you must work out of a state-licensed brothel (and be able to produce your registration on demand) and that brothel must ensure that you are:
- Willing.
- Of legal age.
- Free of STDs.
- Free of illegal drugs.
- The brothel can have it's license revoked for violations of the above and/or disturbing the peace.
That's my best attempt to preserve the safety and freedom of those (both male and female) who choose to prostitute themselves for whatever reason which also keeping the trade (as much as is possible) free of underage and coerced workers and giving the workers some legal recourse if they're abused. Somebody on another thread asked if people would be fine with having a brothel next door to them. And under the conditions I laid out above, I'd be fine with it. The brothel I lived close to before was actually pretty quiet although, if you passed by, there was an odd smell, almost like patchouli oil.
That said, your BDFL also has a whole lot of stuff he'd like to do to improve the options for people in the underclass.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)and sexual shame."
Sadly, I tend to think this way as well.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)They are a social design and control system for the rich. And are designed to make shiftless, fatass donut-eaters look like they've earned their pay.
If I wasn't clear, let me repeat:
[CENTER][FONT SIZE=8]BULLSHIT[/FONT][/CENTER]
- We all sell our bodies. Just different parts.......
K&R
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Right Wing Conservative Religion is prudish on sex for fun just to point to the likes of us to call us perverts. So that means you are going to end up with a whole lot of fun activity defined as a violation. Their GOAL is to judge us based on what they define as a vice. This includes anything considered "deviant" or "improper" which encompasses a whole lot of things people don't even consider to be a big deal these days.
They tell their followers that being a prude is patriotic and then tell them society is collapsing because the law isn't arresting people for things that they claim are "perverted". (Which to them could include going to bed without proper Sears and Roebuck pajamas washed in Tide with Downey.) Further, they claim normal feelings of desire are actually the Devil tempting you into Hell with "sins of the flesh."
Meanwhile, the people selling this bilge are attending the next Republican National Convention and calling to see if the local "escort service" can make sure they have the usual goat available.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)With that being said, I really do not have any answers either.
But a damn fine start to a good discussion.
Kick. Rec.
Squinch
(50,911 posts)or not taking a stance, we are in fact taking a stance. So we have to try and identify the best of the bad options, the one that results in the least amount of human misery, the one that our political system will allow.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... economic system is one good way to reduce the harmful aspects of prostitution.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Bragi
(7,650 posts)We know what's needed.
Got a complex social issue? We've got a jail for that!
Signed, Every Fox News Viewer
redqueen
(115,103 posts)BainsBane
(53,012 posts)This is the only thread that seeks to examine many sides of the issue. Predictably, it doesn't attract nearly the attention of others.