How the hell does consensual prostitution harm anyone???

[davidn3600]

Im not talking about sex trafficking or pimping or anything like that.

If a man pays a woman for sex, and she agrees and its all consensual and she wants to do it, and there is no violence and she can stop it at any point....what the fuck is the problem???? And why is it anyone elses business???

Sure there are criminals involved with it. There are criminals involved with everything. We don't shut down the entire internet because of hackers or people from the "Nigerian lotto" trying to scam people. We don't ban DVDs because a few people decide to pirate movies with it.
No one here is supporting rape. No one here is supporting sex traffickers. Those things are illegal and will always remain illegal.

We are talking about CONSENSUAL sexual activity here!

What's next? Feminists telling us that masturbation perpetuates rape culture? I'm surprised we haven't been told that yet! They already think pornography should be banned even if the people in it are willing participants.
I dont know who I fear more...these type of people who want complete control of society or the far-right Christians. Both of them want the government to bust down bedroom doors and enforce morality on consenting adults. It's getting to be a scary nation, that's for sure.

Just keep building more prisons!!!

[2naSalit]

1. The problem is

the gray area surrounding consent. How does a John know when his prostitute isn't forced into sex slavery? How does the purchaser know whether the purchased is consenting out of fear for their safety and life? How does the purchaser know for certain that the purchased is not trafficked? Does the purchaser ask for papers or proof?

It also implies that misogyny is okay because man has to be satisfied one way or another because sexual pleasure is what it's all about.

[davidn3600]

2. That's why you should have regulated establishments

Places where there are strictly enforced rules. The women (or maybe even men) can leave the business at any time. The sex workers pay social security taxes and get benefits. The place is regulated so no drugs or STDs. etc, etc....

This would remove demand from the streets.

[hlthe2b]

3. Three words...

Rubber Inflatable Dolls...



When real people are involved, exploitation nearly always follows.

[2naSalit]

5. However...

it still confirms that misogyny is okay. Why is it that women are expected to keep to themselves with regard to sexual activity and condemned for not keeping to themselves or not wearing sexually appealing attire and men are exalted for their sexual prowess and activities and having the biggest junk?

There is a major inequality that is so pervasive that it boggles the mind, quite similar to the income inequality problems. But I see/hear only men promoting the acceptance of prostitution. If women were equal and had better means of supporting themselves, prostitution would be a thing of the past.

[PowerToThePeople]

13. There are male prostitutes that service women too. n/t

[2naSalit]

17. as well as other men. n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

23. Yes. n/t

[AverageJoe90]

37. Yes, this. nt

[2naSalit]

6. See Reply #5.

[2naSalit]

14. Those two

conditions are what drive prostitution as an event and as a business "opportunity".

[former9thward]

7. Make it legal.

Sex is no different than any other human need. People are exploited and others make money for food, water and shelter. Are you going to avoid those too?

[2naSalit]

10. Hmmmm

You may be human, however, contrary to popular marketing campaigns, you cannot have it all.

[former9thward]

11. Humans want it all.

That is what drives us. But we still have the remnants of Puritanism in the U.S. when it comes to anything sex.

[2naSalit]

21. My my,

Attacking me personally is an interesting tack, but does not address the point I was making.

It's more of an economic situation including the part where women, and some men, are conditioned - socially - to see themselves as marketable in the sex market due to social pressures like attractiveness or the condemnation of behavioral confines dictated by popularity and the criteria for acceptance on those levels... including the ability to acquire the funds needed for daily survival. Gorilla lifestyle by selling sexual favors, happens in the corporate world too, for the sake of survival or elevation of position for better survival conditions.

I was merely commenting on a topic I found interesting, suddenly you have chosen to make it a personal attack device... interesting. Must have struck a nerve of a conscientious nature.

Have a nice day, I have more pressing matters to tend to for the rest of the day.

[redqueen]

18. Stop saying sex is a need

#its fucking not a basic human need or else lots of people that have ever had sexual frustration would be dead by now

"Give it to me straight doc, is he gonna be okay?"

"No ma’am I’m sorry but we were too late…your son just couldn’t get some. There was nothing we could do."

*mother crumbles to the floor, curses the friendzone to the heavens. Doc lowers fedora over corpse’s eyes respectfully*

http://phantomrose96.tumblr.com/post/87752697312/kazifer-stop-saying-that-sex-is-a-basic-human

[former9thward]

30. No, I will not defy science.

I will leave that to you.

[LanternWaste]

71. Hence, the person who is unable to perform does not exist as they defy science?

Hence, the person who is unable to perform (some paraplegics, some cancer patients, etc) does not and cannot exist as they defy science?

Or do we finally realize that it is not in fact, a need (e.g. breathing, eating, etc), and one may exists with or without it?




(insert rationalization here, or move goal posts to better validate bias)

[AuntPatsy]

44. Lol loved this

[Katashi_itto]

45. Lol! Max-Neef classifies the fundamental human needs as:

Max-Neef classifies the fundamental human needs as:
subsistence
protection
affection
understanding
participation
leisure
creation
identity
freedom

Affection: respect, sense of humour, generosity, sensuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs

[opiate69]

49. Oh, well that anonymous blogger is

faaaar more qualified than Maslow to speak on such matters, obviously.
Omfg. and... the font of all this wisdom garnered her amazing insight into such complexities in a mere 18 years existence!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

85. Maslow defined 'needs' rather interestingly, and I think he got that one wrong.

If you notice, every other physiological 'need', if denied, results in you actually dying. Sex is the only 'physiological need' that you actually can live for 80 or 90 years without meeting. Any of the others, you'll die within a month or so tops if you fail to meet, and most within minutes to days.

In reality, sex should only show up in the yellow or above - things you obviously 'want', but do not actually 'need' to survive.

[opiate69]

88. His inclusion of sex in the physiological needs is in reference to species, not individual, survival

Sexual intimacy is included in the higher, third tier, as an emotional/psychological need.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

90. Well, if it's in reference to the species

(and I haven't reread the original journal article in a while, so I'm not surprised I forgot that), then it obviously has no bearing on the 'needs' of the individual in re prostitution.

[hifiguy]

123. I was going to post this.

Thanks for doing so.

There are some for whom ideology trumps actual science and expertise ten times out of ten. The proper term for them is Lysenkoists:

"Lysenkoism is used metaphorically to describe the manipulation or distortion of the scientific process as a way to reach a predetermined conclusion as dictated by an ideological bias, often related to social or political objectives." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism (emphasis added).

[betsuni]

50. Ha!

I wanted to say that but couldn't think of a funny way to do it. "Sex is a need" is an excuse.

[MadrasT]

47. Sex with another person is a want. It is not a "need".

If you need to get off, and no one is around to assist that endeavor, then masturbate.

Plenty of people don't have sex. Nobody dies from it.

"Need" my ass.

[former9thward]

53. Your opinion.

Not the opinion of scientists.

[gollygee]

62. What scientists think you will die without sex with another person?

[opiate69]

63. What scientists think survival is the only criteria for need?

[gollygee]

64. A need is a requirement

If it's something you'd just like, or would make you happier, it is not a need.

Show me the scientists who call sex with another person a need.

[opiate69]

67. Abraham Maslow, for one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Also, your definition of "needs" is lacking..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need

A need is something that is necessary for organisms to live a healthy life. Needs are distinguished from wants because a deficiency would cause a clear negative outcome, such as disfunction or death. Needs can be objective and physical, such as food, or they can be subjective and psychological, such as the need for self-esteem. On a social level, needs are sometimes controversial. Understanding needs and wants is an issue in the fields of politics, social science, and philosophy.

[gollygee]

69. That's tenuous

He doesn't say you have to have another person available. Maslow's hierachry of needs lists all physiological things together, and "sex" is not specifically sex with another person but sexual feelings, which could be fulfilled with masturbation. Find me a quote of his where he says someone needs to have sex with another person.

[opiate69]

80. From his original paper, "A Theory of Human Motivation" (1943)

" Love and affection, as well as their possible expression in sexuality, are generally looked upon with ambivalence and are customarily hedged about with many restrictions and inhibitions. Practically all theorists of psychopathology have stressed thwarting of the love needs as basic in the picture of maladjustment."

"One thing that must be stressed at this point is that love is not synonymous with sex. Sex may be studied as a purely physiological need. Ordinarily sexual behavior is multi-determined, that is to say, determined not only by sexual but also by other needs, chief among which are the love and affection needs. Also not to be overlooked is the fact that the love needs involve both giving and receiving love"

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Maslow/motivation.htm

[gollygee]

83. That doesn't say what you are claiming

Love is one thing and requires another person, sex is physiological and is something else entirely. Sexual release does not require another person. You have not found a quote that says it does.

[opiate69]

86. I had to pay for my advanced psychology classes.

I suggest you do the same. But, hey.. maybe you're happy going along believing that psychological and emotional needs are never as important (or the consequences of their being unfulfilled as potentially devastating) as existential needs. In that case, carry on.

[gollygee]

87. I'm saying that the physiological need of sex does not require another person

[opiate69]

91. But, the psychological need (tier 3, "sexual intimacy") kinda does...

I mean, I'm as happy with a bit of Onanism as anybody, but I don't think it rises to "intimacy", particularly when you see that entire tier is focused on interactions with others.

[gollygee]

94. That's up on the hierarchy a bit

No one needs to attain self-actualization. Plenty of people get by without sex with another person, just like plenty of people get by without family. People would be happier with sexual intimacy (and with family) and would get higher up on the pyramid but that doesn't make sex with another person a need.

[opiate69]

95. And, again...

Needs are distinguished from wants because a deficiency would cause a clear negative outcome, such as dysfunction or death.

Many people become susceptible to loneliness, social anxiety, and clinical depression in the absence of this love or belonging element.

[gollygee]

106. Well love and belonging and prostitution aren't really the same

No one has a right to another person's body, and no one has a right to another person's love. People live without either.

[laundry_queen]

66. links? nt

[former9thward]

75. Plenty of information in this thread.

But if you need to read a DU thread to understand sex then I think it is not worth the bother.

[Scout]

79. so in other words, you got nuthin'

figures.

no scientific data that one MUST have sex to continue to live.

[former9thward]

81. Another strawman knocked down by Scout!

How unusual. Not.

[laundry_queen]

89. As I though. Nothing. nt

[Scout]

70. oooooh baby if you loved me, you'd blow me, else I might die!!!

oh the humanity

[LanternWaste]

72. Which scientists believes that one many not exist if sexual gratification is not present?

Which scientists believes that one many not exist if sexual gratification is not present?

[former9thward]

76. Cotton Mather lives on.

[LanternWaste]

93. Hence, no objective support to your imagined premise. I am shocked.

Hence, no objective support to your imagined premise. I am shocked.

(insert additional petulance here to maintain self-validation)

[BainsBane]

8. You're not talking about actual prostitution

like it actually works, but the theoretical notion you have in your head of it.

FYI, children can't consent to sex. Many prostitutes are well under age. There have been dozens of threads and as usual you haven't read any of the responses of the feminists you malign.

[TDale313]

9. Spot on.

Also, so very tired, on a supposedly Democratic board, of seeing Feminist treated like a slur by some. It's beyond frustrating.

[Travis_0004]

20. How many legal prostitutes in Nevada are underage?

I would guess none. A brothel doesnt want to loose their licence and they perform background checks.

I dont believe that you will ever stop prostitution, but I believr if you make it legal you can make it safe. Brothels ahould be regulated, workers tested, and with it legal they can call thr police if needed. With it underground it is far more dangerous and most would be afraid to call the police if needed.

[redqueen]

24. Most of the prostitutes in Nevada, even in counties where it's legal, are not legal ones.

Demand drives down prices. Prostitutes in brothels have to hand over money to the brothel owners. So many don't sign up to be in the happy legal shiny safe brothels.

Also, traffickers know many men don't want to use condoms, don't want to restrict themselves to acts that legal prostitutes will agree to, and want to have sex with underage prostitutes.

Where it's legal, demand goes up, prices go down, and traffickers come in to cash in on the demand driven by those men.

[BainsBane]

27. Underage prostituion continues in places where it has been legalized

like Germany, and in fact studies show human trafficking, which is largely of underage girls and boys, increases. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065 So while there may not be underage girls in NV brothels, I can guarantee you there is widespread illegal underage prostitution in Nevada.

The fact is many Johns want sex--which in reality is rape since they are too young to consent--with children and teens, which is why so many prostitutes are underage. Legalization doesn't make that go away. In fact it may well increase it.

[reorg]

46. again with the BS

the summary of the study you linked and cited doesn't even mention children.

Human trafficking is NOT "largely" of underage boys and girls. It is of poor people in third world countries and eastern Europe that are lured to Germany with the false promise of a well-paying job. It the huge income disparity didn't exist, and if there were better possibilities for these economic refugees to enter the EU, most of the trafficking would go away immediately.

[theHandpuppet]

122. Correct.

Rachel Lloyd, MA, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Girls Educational and Mentoring Services (GEMS) in New York, NY, stated in her Apr. 19, 2012 NYTimes.com article titled "Legality Leads to More Trafficking":
"The presence of an adult sex industry increases both the rates of child sexual exploitation and trafficking. It may be true that some women in commercial sex exercised some level of informed choice, had other options to entering and have no histories of familial trauma, neglect or sexual abuse. But, these women are the minority and don’t represent the overwhelming majority of women, girls, boys and transgender youth, for whom the sex industry isn’t about choice but lack of choice.

The argument that legalizing prostitution makes it safer for women just hasn’t been borne out in countries implementing full legalization. In fact, legalization has spurred traffickers to recruit children and marginalized women to meet demand. Amsterdam, long touted as the model, recently started recognizing rates of trafficking into the country have increased and is beginning to address the enormous hub of trafficking and exploitation that it's created."....

The US Department of State, in the June 2007 issue of its "Trafficking in Humans Report," stated:
"Sex trafficking would not exist without the demand for commercial sex flourishing around the world. The U.S. Government adopted a strong position against prostitution in a December 2002 policy decision, which states that prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing and fuels trafficking in persons.

Prostitution and related activities—including pimping and patronizing or maintaining brothels—encourage the growth of modern-day slavery by providing a façade behind which traffickers for sexual exploitation operate. Where prostitution is tolerated, there is a greater demand for human trafficking victims and nearly always an increase in the number of women and children trafficked into commercial sex slavery. Few women seek out or choose to be in prostitution, and most are desperate to leave it. A 2003 scientific study in the Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape prostitution but had no other options for survival."....

Richard Poulin, PhD, Professor of Sociology at the University of Ottawa, wrote in his article titled "The Legalization of Prostitution and Its Impact on Trafficking in Women and Children," posted Feb. 6, 2005 on Sisyphe.org:
"Although there was a belief that legalization would make possible control of the sex industry, the illegal industry is now 'out of control'. Police in Victoria [Australia] estimate that there are 400 illegal brothels as against 100 legal ones. Trafficking in women and children from other countries has increased significantly. The legalization of prostitution in some parts of Australia has thus resulted in a net growth of the industry. One of the results has been the trafficking in women and children to 'supply' legal and illegal brothels. The 'sex entrepreneurs' have difficulty recruiting women locally to supply an expanding industry, and women from trafficking are more vulnerable and more profitable."....

A short list of other sources:
http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/643
http://blog.acton.org/archives/58525-does-legalizing-prostitution-reduce-child-sex-slavery.html
http://www.equalitynow.org/sites/default/files/Does_Legalizing_Prostitution_Protect_Women_and_Girls_EN.pdf

[Iron Man]

15. It doesn't.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. Even if we were to stipulate that your hypothetical, idealized consensual form of prostitution

does not harm anyone (which probably isn't true anyway, but that would be a far longer comment), we actually face the reality that probably 99.999% of prostitution doesn't occur in that idealized way.

Argue from reality, not some utopian archetype.

[redqueen]

29. Apparently recognizing the facts you just pointed out

means you think sex is dirty and you're a puritan.

So much blatant stupidity here.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. Yeah, I just saw that other thread.

By Mr. 'I like to have sex NSA' bewailing 'puritans'.

An army of strawmen marching around the site these days.

Sex isn't dirty unless you're into having sex in the dirt, or haven't showered lately, and no one cares if he has sex with strangers who also want 'no strings attached' sex.

[CTyankee]

102. I think it is embarrassing to proclaim one's sex life on an internet site...

I also don't understand it. But I didn't read whatever thread/s that appeared on.

[joeglow3]

58. If you are going to throw out a percentage, you should be able to cite it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

60. Laugh.

Because there is any way to actually tell? Get back to me when you find any realistic study that can be generalized world wide that isn't simply depending on a whole bunch of fudge factors.

Do I have the exact number? No. And neither does anyone else. But apart from Elliot Spitzer's 'bit of fun', I've never seen a mug shot of a prostitute on the news of a woman who looked like she was enjoying herself, and the vast majority looked like they spent most of their time drugged out of their minds to avoid facing reality.

[joeglow3]

97. What did the abortion industry look like in the 1960's?

How about the pot industry 40 years?

Making activities illegal create self-fulfilling prophecies. Most upstanding people who would participate in an activity will avoid doing it simply because it is illegal. You end up with less than desirable people being the ones willing to get involved.

It has nothing to do with the activity, but rather the fact that some felt the need to make it illegal.

[hifiguy]

125. You are making far too much sense.

[reorg]

107. Would the numbers about job satisfaction count?

A study by the German Federal Ministry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth: "Health, Well-Being and Personal Safety of Women in Germany" found that prostitutes are on average less satisfied with their work than other females.

But, asked to "grade" their job satisfaction on a scale of 1-6 (that's the old system of school grades in Germany where 1 means very good, 2=good, 3= satisfactory, 4=sufficient, 5=insufficient, 6 unsatisfactory), 33 percent checked 1 or 2 and 30 percent 3 or 4.

Whereas only 16 percent of other females said they were not satisfied (5 or 6), 37 percent of prostitutes made that assessment. Which confirms the general prejudice that prostitutes are unhappy with their job and would love to get out rather today than tomorrow. The prejudice has a sound basis. But it is not representative for all and not even for most prostitutes.

http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/Service/publikationen,did=20560.html



http://blogs.taz.de/latinorama/2013/06/21/wir-sind-alle-prostitutas/

[LostInAnomie]

32. It doesn't.

Consenting adults should be allowed to determine what they wish to do with their bodies. If two consenting adults decide that they wish to enter an exchange of sex for money then society as a whole shouldn't be in the business of stopping them. For some reason the more puritanical members of society can't have people making decisions about their own sexuality though, so they conflate the issue with human trafficking and child prostitution.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Wouldn't the solution be for law enforcement to focus on trafficking and child prostitution...

Wouldn't the solution be for law enforcement to focus on trafficking and child prostitution since coercion is part and parcel of those activities instead of interfering with the activities of consenting and fully emancipated adults?

[LostInAnomie]

34. I would think so, but I'm not one of the people looking to conflate the issue.

Human trafficking and sex with children is already illegal. Society would be better served by having our police officers focus on those two crimes than by having them arrest consenting adults, or by wasting countless man-hours setting up prostitution stings.

The simple solution it to regulate it. Create licenses, establish zoning, test for std's constantly, and tax heavily.

[whosinpower1]

113. Has not stopped human trafficking in the red district in Holland. nt

[LostInAnomie]

115. And?

Bad people will do bad things. That's why there are laws against sex slavery.

Would you prefer a situation like Thailand or maybe Saudi Arabia? Laws do nothing but give sex workers no place to go for help.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. Child prostitution is a huge problem in many Asian and Eastern European nations.

Westerners going to those nations to seek sex with underage boys and girls should be severely punished. It is really , really... messed up.

However , in the USA, the lion's share of men and women working as prostitutes are adults. I see no good coming from throwing them in the hoosegow.

[hifiguy]

126. Logic would seem to dictate just that.

[whosinpower1]

74. That isn't conflating

Open your eyes - the reality is that women are exploited, pushed down socio-economically, to the point where they(and you) are demanding some sort of quasi-self affirming argument - "my body is my temple and I can do with it whatever I want."

The reality is that the vast majority of females in the sex trade have been abused in the past, they may have come from disadvantaged broken homes, they may have addictions problems. They are fucked, emotionally, mentally, psychologically.

And there you are trying to defend this by suggesting that a woman who sees her body as an orifice from which a man pays money to take sexual release from is not anything other than demeaning and degrading is abhorrent.

Human trafficking, sex slavery and child prostitution are tied intrinsically to this phenomenon that women are objects to be used.

Bringing money to the table, warps, in every sense of a persons decisions regarding their sexual preferences in partners.

[PowerToThePeople]

82. Are we moving to a moneyless country?

Bringing money to the table, warps, in every sense of a persons decisions regarding their sexual preferences in partners.

There is no sexual interaction, directly purchased or not, that money is not "brought to the table." Please show me one single example of a supermodel having sex with a homeless man (of similar age and physically fit, attractive, etc.)

Money is ALWAYS on the table, whether it is discussed or not.

http://patch.com/georgia/marietta/the-top-10-reasons-marriages-end-in-divorce_14370092

10 Reasons Why Divorce Happens

1. Lack of communication. This is one of the major reasons why divorce happens. Distance is created quickly if you don’t share your feelings, don’t tell your partner what’s happening, and keep your feelings to yourself. A successful relationship constantly keeps the lines of communication open.

2. Finances. Money talks and can make your life better or in some cases worse than you were. If money becomes a consistent topic of disagreement, the road to divorce is certain.

[LostInAnomie]

103. Yep. It absolutely is conflating.

Last edited Mon Aug 11, 2014, 05:31 PM - Edit history (1)

It's quite obvious conflating too, because the anti-prostitution side doesn't even address the idea that adults with full agency should be allowed to do with their bodies as they please. Whether what they do offends you or not, is absolutely immaterial. Instead, you dive head long into saying that human trafficking and child prostitution are inseparable from sex work. Which not only is not true, but also has nothing to do with the argument that anyone is making.

"The reality is that the vast majority of females in the sex trade have been abused in the past, they may have come from disadvantaged broken homes, they may have addictions problems. They are fucked, emotionally, mentally, psychologically."

Prostitution is a reality, and always will be. Our current laws on sex work only serve to entrench the absolute worst practices in the industry. It perpetuates the misery of its workers, and ensures that the industry's workers are people with no other outlet. By making it legal and regulating sex work we would be able to protect prostitutes from violence, make sure that they are tested for disease and drugs, and make sure they are of age and not being coerced. With these protections in place, the solicitors wouldn't have any reason to go to illegal prostitutes, unless they are looking for something that is already covered by current rape and statutory rape laws.

"And there you are trying to defend this by suggesting that a woman who sees her body as an orifice from which a man pays money to take sexual release from is not anything other than demeaning and degrading is abhorrent. "

Hmmm... I didn't realize that only women work as prostitutes. Believe it or not, there are some people who find nothing degrading about sex. They aren't shackled by the antiquated morality that sex is demeaning, dirty, or oppressive. They would also feel that people telling them so are trying to infatilize them and take away their agency to make their own decisions. Personally, I find going to work every day at my job and only being paid a fraction of the value of my labor to be degrading and demeaning, but I don't try to dress it up in any faux-morality.

"Bringing money to the table, warps, in every sense of a persons decisions regarding their sexual preferences in partners."

People make decisions based on all kinds of factors. I wouldn't go to work everyday if I wasn't getting paid. Does that mean I'm immoral because I sell my life in eight hour segments doing things I don't really want to do? Nope. Does getting paid to have sex make a person immoral? Nope.

[whosinpower1]

110. Such bullshit all the way around

"By making it legal and regulating sex work, we would be able to protect prostitutes from violence, make sure they are tested for disease and drugs, and make sure they are of age and not being coerced."

Such a huge heap of hogwash. You will not be able to protect prostitutes from violence - regardless if it was legal or not. Violence against another person is always illegal - is it not? I was not aware of ANY such law that states if it was a prostitute - then it is okay to exert violence upon that person. Ask yourself this question - WHY is there even a risk of violence within that environment? Would it even be considered an increased risk? WHY? Be honest.

We see far more victims of violence from what portion of society? Why is that?

Holland has a legal red district. It has not been successful at keeping out the sex slave trade. Oh, that is besides the point, right.

Spain has legalized prostitution. How has that worked out for them?

If you wish to label myself as having antiquated morality for acknowledging that sex trafficking, the human sex slave trade, and child sex labour is in fact demeaning, abhorrent and oppressive - then so be it. I am all of that.

I know you wish to separate this into some sort of myopic perfect state where were two consenting adults should be able to do what they wish. Is it ethical to exploit others for the purpose of sex? If the sex worker does not see it as exploitation - is it, in fact still exploitation? If the sex worker is coerced into the industry, is that exploitation?

If I note that your work is not equitably compensated, at what point is it exploitation - when I say it is, when you say it is? I would suggest that it becomes exploitation when you have no other options whatsoever at earning a wage - at that point, it is, in fact exploitation of your own circumstances.

You go to work every day and sell your life doing what you do not wish to do. You have options of leaving that job to find any other. I am not convinced that sex workers are afforded the same luxury. I am not convinced that sex workers, even if it were legalized would be afforded the same luxury. There are circumstances within their lives, that you obscure as if that were inconsequential.

[LostInAnomie]

114. Ah, I see. More dishonest conflation.

"I was not aware of ANY such law that states if it was a prostitute - then it is okay to exert violence upon that person. Ask yourself this question - WHY is there even a risk of violence within that environment? Would it even be considered an increased risk? WHY? Be honest. "

Really, you can't think of why solicitors/pimps might feel safe assaulting prostitutes? You can't think of any legal standing of the victim that might make perpetrator feel safe from being turned in?

"We see far more victims of violence from what portion of society? Why is that?"

You really can't see why a prostitute who is performing an illegal act might have a problem calling the police and reporting that a client beat them up or robbed them in the commission of an illegal act? You can't see why a person committing illegal sex acts might be reluctant to report the pimp that bails them out when they are arrested? You really can't think of a reason? Either you are naive or intentionally obtuse, so I will give you a hint: because they don't want to get arrested.

By making sex work legal the sex worker would be able to report clients that assault them, and they wouldn't need pimps to bail them out or provide protection.

"Holland has a legal red district. It has not been successful at keeping out the sex slave trade. Oh, that is besides the point, right.

Spain has legalized prostitution. How has that worked out for them?"

Maybe you should ask the legal prostitutes in those countries if they would like to go back to when it was illegal? Would they like to go back to the old model where they were subject to the constant threat of disease, violence, rape, and arrest? Would they like to go back to the system where they don't have the leisure to decide whether they want to have sex or not? I have a feeling neither they, nor their respective countries would go back.

But, none of that matters to you does it? That's the problem with the anti-prostitution crowd. They love to make the perfect the enemy of the good. Prostitution has and always will exist. You can't legislate or wish it away. So, the rational thing to do is ask ourselves whether the laws we have in place do more harm than good. The answer to that is a clear and resounding "Yes".

Sex slavery, child prostitution, human trafficking are all issues that need addressed. But, they are issues independent of whether consenting adults are having sex for money. The conflation does nothing to help anyone.

"If you wish to label myself as having antiquated morality for acknowledging that sex trafficking, the human sex slave trade, and child sex labour is in fact demeaning, abhorrent and oppressive - then so be it. I am all of that. "

Yes, taking a stance against the exploitation of human misery is a bold stance. You must feel very assured of your liberal credentials. But that isn't what you were railing against earlier when you said: "...a woman who sees her body as an orifice from which a man pays money to take sexual release from is not anything other than demeaning and degrading is abhorrent". That's just simple sexual puritanism.

"You go to work every day and sell your life doing what you do not wish to do. You have options of leaving that job to find any other. I am not convinced that sex workers are afforded the same luxury. I am not convinced that sex workers, even if it were legalized would be afforded the same luxury. There are circumstances within their lives, that you obscure as if that were inconsequential."

Their lack of options is a result of our lack of a social safety net. Laws against prostitution only serve to further entrench their lack of options by saddling these men and women with a criminal record.

[whosinpower1]

116. You would have to prove to me

That legal prostitutes in nations where prostitution is legal are so much better off. No, not only that - but society, as a whole is much better off.

Those issue, which I bring up time and time again are absolutely tied to the situation - regardless if you believe it is conflating or not. Regardless if you see it as "puritanism". So odd, you would choose religiously based words such as "morality, and puritanism." Not once have you ever acknowledged that men and women may be forced into the sex trade - your only solution to such would be that it should be legal, taxed, and regulated - because, you know - that is just the way of the world.

Legalizing prostitution in no way improves the social safety net. That is what you cannot seem to get your head around. Canada has never had criminalized prostitution. Did "clients" abuse them? YES. Were there many women within the sex trade that were murdered? YES. Are those workers exposed to a much higher risk of violence than other trades? ABSOLUTELY. Are there many who have addictions problems? YES. Did many of them "fall" into the sex trade underage? YES. Do many of them have a strong sense of self esteem? NO How about self worth? Any of that? Not really, no.

Countries with strong safety nets have the exact same societal challenges with prostitution. It isn't the sex. It is the violence. It is the exploitation of disadvantaged individuals for the purpose of sexual gratification. You obviously have no issue with that.

The phrase I used - "an orifice from which a man pays money to take sexual release", was from an interview with a sex worker. Was I appalled? Sure. Because no body, no person should ever consider themselves merely that. That she demeaned herself when she stated such. Unless that is simple sexual puritanism - to think that a person should feel more about themselves than just an orifice.....if that is the case, then I guess it must be so. I thought it was empathy.

[LostInAnomie]

118. How could legal prostitutes be any worse off?

That is where you have to start from. Prostitution is going to happen and nothing we can do is going to change this. The current situation we have now is one where the sex worker has no protections at all. They are always at the risk of violence from clients or predatory pimps. They have no say in who their clients are or if they are going to have sex. They have no real protection from STDs. They are at constant risk of arrest and each arrest compounds their legal trouble. It would be hard to imagine a worse situation for them or for society.

By making sex work legal, we would be able to curb some of the problems associated with it currently. A legal sex worker has no fear of turning in violent clients. They wouldn't need a pimp for protection or to bail them out of jail. To keep their license they would be subject to drug and disease screening. They would also be mandated to use protection.

Society gains by gained tax revenue, freed jail space, reduced STDs, and citizens that are employable because they don't have extensive arrest records. Also, by limiting the areas in which prostitution can take place, they will have greater control over the conditions sex work takes place in.

"So odd, you would choose religiously based words such as "morality, and puritanism." Not once have you ever acknowledged that men and women may be forced into the sex trade - your only solution to such would be that it should be legal, taxed, and regulated - because, you know - that is just the way of the world. "

I haven't brought up morality or acknowledged forced sex trade because it is immaterial to the OP and only serves to confuse the issue. I am not in the business of second guessing a person's sexual morality, and neither should society. As long as all participants are of age and consenting, it is none of my business.

"The phrase I used - "an orifice from which a man pays money to take sexual release", was from an interview with a sex worker. Was I appalled? Sure. Because no body, no person should ever consider themselves merely that."

I agree, no one should think of themselves as an amalgamation of body parts and orifices. But, her own view on her self-worth is more of a reflection of her internalized sexual mores than it is that sex work is inherently demeaning or degrading. This antiquated morality is more harmful to society than legalized prostitution could ever be. It is the "morality" that causes society to view sexually active women as "whores", or that a woman has less value the more sexual partners she's had. It's an oppressive "morality" that we as a society should get over.

[whosinpower1]

129. You have brought up morality - repeatedly

Every time you suggest "antiquated morality is more harmful to society" - you are, in effect, bringing up your concept/disdain of morality - and also second guessing it and judging it.

Nor do you even bother to consider the socio-economic conditions which may have caused a person to enter the sex trade. That is inflicting morality into the equation where none need apply - is that about right? Except that refusing to acknowledge ethical considerations is a judgement - the judgement being that these things have no value. It is not significant that a person may have been victimized sexually as a child. That is not significant. That the person may have been forced to leave home because of an abusive family - that is not significant.

Every time you refuse to acknowledge that these issues are significant, the subliminal message is that males (because a vast majority of perpetrators of sexual violence and assault) can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and the victims emotional response, psychological trauma, personal intimate feelings towards themselves and their bodies - are the entire fault of society!?! Seriously? Not that someone took advantage of them - not that that someone has a responsibility and obligation to treat other people with respect and consideration, and rejected that for their own personal gratification, regardless of what the other was experiencing. That is not society's fault, for fuck sakes. A child who feels violated - FEELS VIOLATED BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN VIOLATED, NOT BECAUSE SOCIETY TELLS THEM THIS IS THE WAY THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO FEEL.

You even judged that the person whom I used as an example was grappling with antiquated morality which was causing her discomfort - not that she did in fact feel as a mere orifice as a result of her work experiences. You are not even aware of it, but you demean her very feelings, because you belittle them.

There is a vast difference between sexually active women, and prostitutes. I would suggest that a sexually active woman seeks out gratification from a partner, and is also willing to give gratification. There is a mutuality to the arrangement. A prostitute, forfeits her right to ask, or expect any gratification in the experience in exchange for money.

[treestar]

35. It is an economic question

Rich women don't consent to make a living this way. It's not a career choice.

It hurts the poor women who see it as a way to make money

If they are drug addicts doing it to support a habit then the alleged consent is questionable.

We need a better social safety net so no woman has to consider entering this labor market.

[LostInAnomie]

39. Most of the problems associated with prostitution...

... come with it being an underground economy.

Take away the illegality and the social stigma of sex work and the other problems will be lessened significantly. By licensing and regulating the practice you would take sex work and its seedier aspects out from shadows and shine a light on the industry. The coercion, the underage workers, the diseases, and the drug use could all be alleviated. Once those factors are removed and the industry as a whole is cleaned up, sex work would turn into a well paying job.

Rich people don't consent to making a living this way because it is an underground industry. Bring it into the light and you would probably within a year have some extremely attractive and talented prostitutes making millions of dollars a year. At that point, the stigma would have evaporated and rich people would be diving in.

As it is now, prostitution is the domain of poor women and drug addicts because they are the ones desperate enough to risk a run in with the law to support themselves. Poor women are there because they probably lack the skills, support, or education to do anything else. Drug addicts are there because the illegality of it makes it a higher paying job than they could find anywhere else, and there are no regulations preventing them from working while high on drugs.

I agree that we do need a better safety net. But, I do not agree that there is anything inherently immoral or wrong about anyone entering this industry. The stigma our society assigns to sex work says more about our own hang-ups than it does about the industry itself.

[treestar]

40. No, don't agree

Nobody would want to do this if they don't have to. It offends every idea we have of the good life. If it were regulated, the underground market would still exist, as the poor women, the drug addicts, likely couldn't afford the license or qualify for it. Try to regulate it and the first law would be no criminal record and no drug record. The only people who are desperate enough to do it would not qualify. Sex should not be "work" for anyone. That's an offensive term. They are using it to attempt to pretend anyone wants to do this. No, have a social safety net.

[LostInAnomie]

42. Meh... to each their own.

I wouldn't be so comfortable making the assumption that no one would choose sex work if it were clean, safe, and regulated, if I were you. Not everyone has the same hang ups about their sexuality. I personally, find the idea of working every day at my job and only getting paid a fraction of the value of my labor demeaning. So, I don't feel like I should make value judgements for others.

If it were regulated, safe, clean, and readily available, why would the solicitors go anywhere else? Why would they want to take the risk of getting a disease, arrested, or robbed to have sex with an illegal prostitute? That just doesn't make sense.

The poor will always be with us and prostitution will always be a reality. Until we as a society develop an effective safety net so people aren't driven to sex work that don't want to be, our current laws only entrench the current situation. The sooner we regulate it, the sooner the drug addicted and unwilling won't be part of that workforce.

[treestar]

54. Why is it a hang up about sexuality not to want to sell it?

Geez.

I'd rather starve, take welfare, or work any hard job. That's a hang up? No, I'd save sexuality for someone I loved who loved me. What a prude!

[LostInAnomie]

55. Great, if that works for you.

No one is looking to force you into doing something you don't want to do. But, not everyone has the same view on sexuality as you.

[treestar]

121. It would be nice if they didn't use names like "prude"

to describe my view.

[joeglow3]

59. You realize a lot of people have a different view regarding sexuality

[treestar]

120. Yes. Sucks to be them, I guess

Making it clinical and marketable means their lives are devoid of any charm.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

132. Acting in a charmless manner shouldn't make one a criminal.

Passing gas in public is charmless but I wouldn't put flatulent people in the hoosegow.

[whosinpower1]

61. thank you

Well said.

[AverageJoe90]

36. I'm a sex-positive feminist. And I support consensual prostitution 100%.

Regardless of what one may think about the act itself, it is, unfortunately, rather clear that the banning of prostitution has created far more victims, and victimizers, than it ever prevented.

Sure there are criminals involved with it. There are criminals involved with everything. We don't shut down the entire internet because of hackers or people from the "Nigerian lotto" trying to scam people. We don't ban DVDs because a few people decide to pirate movies with it.

What is needed on the legal end of things, more than anything, is *regulation*. Sweden has regulated prostitution and they're doing just fine.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

38. The DU default response to "consensual sex" is...

Something something it's misogyny, stupid.

[el_bryanto]

41. I'm just curious - have you spent time looking at the arguments of the feminists?

Trying to see things from their point of view? Don't you think that might be a valuable exercise.

Bryant

[reorg]

51. "the" feminists widely differ on that topic

I happen to know "their" views on prostitution since the discussion started and I don't think the version over-represented here - because everybody else has left the discussion - is leading nowhere and helps nobody.

Except perhaps what Laura Augustin called the "rescue industry":

Odd then, that so many Americans are blind when it comes to what they call humanitarianism, blissfully conscience-free about interfering in other countries’ affairs in order to impose their own way of life and moral standards. The Rescue Industry that has grown up in the past decade around US policy on human trafficking shows how imperialism can work in softer, more palatable ways than military intervention. Relying on a belief in social evolution, development and modernization as objective truths, contemporary rescuers, like John Stuart Mill 150 years ago, consider themselves free, self-governing individuals born in the most civilized lands and therefore entitled to rule people in more backward ones. (Mill required benevolence, but imperialists always claim to have the interests of the conquered at heart.) Here begins colonialism, the day-to-day imposition of value systems from outside, the permanent maintenance of the upper hand. Here is where the Rescue Industry finds its niche; here is where Kristof ingenuously refers to “changing culture”, smugly certain that his own is superior.

In the formation of the 21st-century anti-trafficking movement, a morally convenient exception is made, as it was made for military actions in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. The exception says This Time It’s Different. This time we have to go in. We have to step up and take the lead, show what real democracy is. In the name of freedom, of course. In the case of trafficking the exception says: We have achieved Equality. We abolished slavery, we had a civil-rights movement and a women’s liberation movement too and now everything is fine here.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/25/the-soft-side-of-imperialism/

[whosinpower1]

43. If it is consensual then,

Why is he required to pay for it?

Well......it could be absolutely nauseating to consider that money trumps all the hard work a man should do to court a woman with the eventual result being sex, but cheaps out by simply buying sex. It is lazy.

It also reinforces that notion that people can be bought, and is entirely exploitive of a persons disadvantage, whether that is emotional, social, or economic.

The very fact that you are supporting an industry that sells sex - SUPPORTS SEX TRAFFICKERS! You cannot separate one from the other.

[MadrasT]

48. OK that covers 2% of prostitution.

Yippee, go you.

[Scout]

52. choices are not made in a vacuum. Yes means nothing when no is not an option. n/t

[deaniac21]

56. Sex is never free.

[LanternWaste]

57. Payday lending rackets are consensual too.

Payday lending rackets are consensual too.

[opiate69]

65. They're also legal and regulated

They're also legal and regulated.






























(A little less reverb in the monitors please, soundman.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

133. Better than going to a loan shark who will break your knee caps if you don't pay./nt

[Tikki]

68. In a broad sense it can hurt the income of a family. I know, I know, get a divorce if your spouse/SO

is using the services of a prostitute.

Seems like a simple solution, probably complicated, though.

Tikki

[redqueen]

73. I know of a family wherein the wife and children all knew

that the father used prostitutes. The mom worked as a waitress at a strip club.

So much sadness there. And I can only guess at how the kids' ideas about sex and sexuality were influenced.

[bigwillq]

77. There's nothing wrong with that scenario. And it's none of my business.

If I want to pay or if someone wants to pay me, and it's consensual between two of age adults, there's nothing wrong with it, and it's none of anyone's business.

[snooper2]

78. you ever buy a used car?

those stains can be a bitch to get out

[Orsino]

84. How the hell does any workplace harm anyone?

By being unregulated, and allowing the pursuit of profit to supersede human rights.

Unregulated prostitution should be banned for the safety of its workers and customers.

[Throd]

92. It depends on where. I used to work in a hooker hot spot. It ruins neighborhoods.

Street prostitution brings with it all manners of problems that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[Blue_Adept]

96. SEX IS ONLY FOR SOMEONE YOU LOVE

Or that's what I keep seeing in multiple posts across these topics in the last few days. Which is interesting.

I'm sure a whole lot of people have only had sex with people they love.

I'm sure a lot of people have had sex with people they didn't. Including people they had just met, possibly even an hour earlier.

Folks need to stop conflating sex with love. They're two separate things that when together is fantastic, but each operates independently as well. And sometimes you just want sex and nothing else. Because that's what you need in your life at that time.

[LanternWaste]

98. I see more posts conflating sex with a need than with love in this thread.

I see more posts conflating sex with a need than with love in this thread.

[Blue_Adept]

99. Possibly.

But as I said, I was talking about across multiple topics the last few days. But both have cropped up here as well in tangents.

[PasadenaTrudy]

100. This is one of

the most idiotic threads I've seen in a while. Good grief. Carry on.

[Douglas Carpenter]

101. I agree

[panader0]

104. I haven't replied to the many prostitution posts yet, but here goes.

In my opinion, 90 plus percent of women who prostitute themselves (or men for that matter) do so because of financial need, not the desire for sex or (my god) love. Consensual ONLY for that reason. I've never been with a prostitute. I admit there were times when I thought about it. But when I am with a woman, (and it's been Jeannie for 14 years) it's because there is a MUTUAL attraction, not a cash deal. Does anyone really think that prostitutes like their job? It's for money, maybe a child at home, maybe a dope habit, maybe the only choice on a dead end street. So the real key here is your word CONSENSUAL. If the sex is forced by financial hardship, would you really say that is consensual?

[reorg]

108. My job is forced on me by financial hardship

If I had enough money, I'd hand in my notice tomorrow. OTOH, given my choices, it's not that bad at all. Being realistic I can see that I couldn't do better.

All in all, I'd rate my job satisfaction on a scale of 1-6 somewhere in the middle, 3 perhaps, at times it got worse, at other times I even felt good there for a while.

So, is it consensual that I stay? Hell, yes. I'll sue if they attempt to fire me.

[panader0]

109. A person is very lucky who can make a living doing what they love.

I work construction. I actually love my job. I take some pride in my work, I build things, make people's ideas into reality, but at age 63, it is getting harder to do.
I guess, in a way, I sell my body (Physical labor) for money. But selling the intimacy of sex is a bit different to me. Plus, at age 63, I don't think there are many who would pay me for sex.

[reorg]

111. I don't think prostitutes see it as "selling the intimacy of sex"

The fact that they are selling it makes it a lot less intimate than what goes on between lovers.

In one of the documentaries I watched, a prostitute said it's not intimacy, not even really about sex, it's like satisfying an addiction of the customer. Another statement I saw, by Domenica, a rather famous prostitute in Germany, now deceased, said: We just assist some men to do their little business, those who cannot manage to get on with it by themselves.

[Hugabear]

105. At one point, I would have agreed with you. But the more I learn, the more my opinion changes

At one point, I didn't see anything wrong with prostitution and porn. However, having gathered more information over the past few years, my opinion on these topics has done a complete 180. While there may be a very small number of women who enjoy prostitution and porn, fact of the matter is that most women are forced into it in one form or another. Whether it's being sold into sexual slavery, supporting a drug habit, or even just to make ends meet, it's not really a "choice" for most of these women. To that end, there really isn't much in the way of consent.

[troublesome_mind]

112. Consensual prostitution ...

doesn't harm anyone any more than playing the dating game. In some cases it can actually be beneficial to a couple's relationship if communication and honesty is present and strong. I know and talk to quite a few people in the sex work field and couples with open relationships that have very healthy families.

[opiate69]

117. Now now.. No reason to bring rational thought into this lol

[hifiguy]

130. Eeyup.

[WillowTree]

119. "Why is it anyone elses business?" Here's how it becomes someone else's business.

Chances are better than not that Johnny isn't making his CONSENSUAL hook-up with Ms. Hooker known to his wife/girlfriend/multiple girlfriends/boyfriend/multiple boyfriends/etc. In other words, in many, if not most cases, there is at least one additional person who is involved and is never given the chance to CONSENT or not. And the consequences for that party can be serious.

I'll let you guess how I know.

[redqueen]

124. *crickets*

... of course

[davidn3600]

137. How does adultery play into this?

Are you suggesting every man that cheats on his wife or girlfriend is doing it with a prostitute?

If a man is going to cheat on his wife, he's going to do it whether its with a prostitute or not. There are no shortage of single women in the world willing to have sex with a married man, for free.

Unless you also want to make adultery a criminal offense...Im sure Rick Santorum will agree with you on that too.

[PowerToThePeople]

127. Well

That "Johnny" is going to cheat regardless. It has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of prostitution.

[hifiguy]

131. There you go again

looking at human nature as it IS and not the way you think it's SUPPOSED to be. Silly rabbit.

[WillowTree]

135. Neither is OK.

Whether he's cheating with a pro or someone else, it's still exposing the third party to things that she (or he) didn't bargain for and has no protection against unless they lock themselves in a room and never engages in a relationship at all.

[PowerToThePeople]

136. So you want to jail whoever

the partner of your cheating spouse was?

The commonality was not who your cheating partner was fornicating, it was your cheating partner.

[WillowTree]

139. Please show me where I said anything at all about jailing anyone.

The question was "How the hell does consensual prostitution harm anyone?" and I stated what is, in my opinion and based on personal experience(s), how someone can be harmed. Sorry if you can't handle it if someone doesn't agree 100% with every point of view you espouse on every possible subject, but that's life. Deal with it.

[PowerToThePeople]

140. Your view doesn't bother me

Your lack of proper logic does. I am actually trying to assist you with getting your logic straight. But, I fear there may be too much emotion for you to be concerned with such trivialities.

I will never "deal with" a conclusion based on false logic.

You equate all cheating as harming to another party, so logic says that if one should be illegal because of the harm it causes, the second should have the same penalty. Thus someone that sleeps with a married person should be in prison just as a prostitute should, for the both caused harm to an unknowing spouse. That is the logical conclusion to what you stated.

edit -

The question was "How the hell does consensual prostitution harm anyone?" and I stated what is, in my opinion and based on personal experience(s), how someone can be harmed.

No one was harmed by the prostitution. Someone may have been harmed by a cheating spouse though.

[Squinch]

134. Please link to any post where anyone here said anything against any consensual sex act.

I have written this in every one of these bullshit threads, and so far, no one has been able to link to a single post in which anyone had any problem with any consensual sex act.

But keep fucking that chicken, bucko.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. No, because they know that doesn't play well. Instead, they just DEFINE acts they don't like

Like, say, having sex in front of a camera- as inherently non-consensual.

But you do get points for the Ernie Anastos reference.

[mazoo11]

141. Prostitution

I think prostitution should be completely legal. It brings more money to the government, sex workers will be safe and the pimps will not make money. If you look from the http://www.wikisexguide.com and type any country to the search box, you can see the current sex laws and information if the prostitution is a problem in those countries where selling sex is legal...