Scientists, how can those who are born blind SEE during NDE's?

[closeupready]

I'm reading a good book about a serial killer, and I won't give away the story, but there is a discussion about near-death experiences (NDE's).

A character relates an anecdote (which is not unheard of) in which a woman born blind was admitted to the hospital and died, clinically, before being resuscitated. When asked about her experience in near-death, she accurately related the kinds of jewelry staff was wearing, clothing, and even identified a book, lying on top of a shelf, which had been orphaned some time in the past as it seems nobody was aware it was there.

Thoughts? Not really looking for a debate about peer-reviewed studies, controls, etc., more along the lines of rational theories that could explain this phenomena. Thanks.

[tkmorris]

1. Well the first thing I'd do is validate those extraordinary claims

I have seen such claims made before, but I have never seen them hold up under scrutiny.

[HERVEPA]

2. Nothing to explain. Didn't happened.

Yes, peer review is necessary whether you want it or not.

[Igel]

3. First, do as the other poster said.

Make sure the claims were made. Not just reported.

Second, make sure that if the person did describe things that there's not a confound. It's not uncommon for somebody to report seeing something and swearing to seeing it when all that happened is they *heard* about it. Sometimes the "telling" can happen when the person appears to be under anesthesia: Sometimes the brain's up and running even if the body seems out cold.

Third, and certainly related: Make sure that the facts weren't fed to the person, intentionally or during the interview and long after the "event". It's easy to leverage a little info or even a guess into a lot of actual information.
"I saw what she was wearing. Jewelry."
"Did you see the gold necklace Nikki was wearing? What color was the pendant, green or red?"
"Yes, I did see the gold necklace. And the pendant was green...."
"Are you sure the pendant was green?"
"No, it was red."
"See, she did see the gold necklace with the red pendant."

Fourth, and inversely related: Make sure that the facts weren't fed to the witnesses. It's easy to recreate memories and create new ones. You'd want to compare the claims with actual objective evidence--photographs, video. I had somebody once "testify" to my boss that he heard me say certain things, confirming what somebody else reported I'd said. Problem was his wife's in-laws had their wedding anniversary and her planner and photo album showed that he was across town at the time, and the second report was from somebody else who hadn't been present. They heard somebody say, "Oh, Igel said this" and with the telling promptly put themselves in the picture, swearing that they were there. Memory recall is memory *re-creation*. It's fairly easy to plant new memories, esp. when people want to or are led to it.

Then, once you've established there's something to find an explanation for, ask your question. Exceptional claims require standard evidence, at the very least.

[Lint Head]

4. Is the book fiction?

I can see! Wait I'm dying.

[closeupready]

13. Yes, "Adam" by Ted Dekker - not really my favorite, but

I'm hanging in there because I like mysteries/thrillers. This one is just way too dark, however. Why do authors forget that thrillers need to be as entertaining as they need to be dark/mysterious? When, for example, you're introduced to cute little puppy who promptly gets run over by a car and then close to death, his dying body gets eaten by coyotes, I mean where is the fun in reading about that? ???

In the same way, this book seems like one long depressing slog through the life and mind of a serial killer. If it were a true story, then I could see the value in reading it regardless because 1) there really are sick people whose lives are nothing but darkness from beginning to end, and 2) such an account can help people understand why people do bad things, in real life.

But since this is entirely fiction, it's difficult for me to forgive the author's failure (or deliberate neglect) to lighten the tale in some way, somehow.

[djean111]

5. Having had an NDE, I believe that, like the existence of a god, NDE's cannot be proved or

disproved. It has always puzzled me how fervently some try to prove NDE's do not happen, but that is really irrelevant to me.
(My NDE was not religious, and I am an atheist).
Unless the scene the woman described was verified, her NDE cannot be proven. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, unless someone fed her the information.

[napkinz]

8. this is a subject I am very interested in

Could you please share your experience? (unless that would make you uncomfortable, then I understand)

thank you

[djean111]

10. I'll send you a message in a little while.

I don't get uncomfortable, just see no need to feed the naysayers.

[closeupready]

14. Yes, if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me as well, I would be grateful.

Or not if you're not comfortable doing so - I will not share details with anyone, just curious for my own sake. TIA.

[longship]

17. Not only do NDEs happen, they can be reproduced, in part.

Neurologist Steve Novella has blogged about NDE and Out-of-body experiences. There are very well understood conditions which give rise to these. In fact there is a brain location which if impaired (by drugs, magnetic stimulation, or a seizure) can reliably and repeatedly give one an out-of-body experience. The rest of the NDE symptoms also have plausible natural explanations.

However, it seems natural for people who experience these to attribute some mystical or religious origin. However, there is little doubt that they are attributable to a variety of brain impairments.

So at least some elements of NDE can not only be demonstrated, they can be reliably repeated, which comes pretty damned close to proving they they originate in, and are part of brain dysfunction.

Regards.

[Orsino]

6. A person born blind suddenly able to interpret imagery?

Was the claim that she could identify colors, too?

Urban legend, probably. Not reproducible, certainly.

[Iron Man]

7. one cannot be rational when taking about NDEs.

The only way to get an explanation is do a scientific study. And since science explained NDEs already, this conversation is moot.

[TexasProgresive]

9. It is good to question

I have not even thought about born blind people having NDEs. In doing a search I find little or nothing proving they can not see during an NDE and quite a bit from questionable sites that they do. Here's one that appears to be interesting.
http://www.netplaces.com/evidence-of-the-afterlife/science-seeks-an-explanation/near-death-experiences-of-the-blind-dr-kenneth-ring-and-sharon-cooper-phd.htm

[NuclearDem]

11. Assuming this isn't an urban legend

There are completely rational explanations behind what are described as NDEs.

[sufrommich]

12. Is the book non fiction or fiction? nt

[closeupready]

15. Fiction.

"Adam" by Ted Dekker. Note that this anecdote is related in the story only in passing, but it got me thinking.

[Motown_Johnny]

16. I am not a scientist, but IMO...

The same chemical process which occur in the brain of someone who is sighted would also take place in the brain of someone who was blind from birth.


It has nothing to do with whatever caused the blindness. It is a stimulus directly inside the brain.



I think that the out of body experience you are referring to...

A character relates an anecdote (which is not unheard of) in which a woman born blind was admitted to the hospital and died, clinically, before being resuscitated. When asked about her experience in near-death, she accurately related the kinds of jewelry staff was wearing, clothing, and even identified a book, lying on top of a shelf, which had been orphaned some time in the past as it seems nobody was aware it was there.


... is the pure fiction part of that book.



Out of body experiences and near death experiences are not the same thing. They are sometimes reported to coincide, but are still separate and distinct from each other.

[MineralMan]

18. Once you wrote that the book was fiction,

I had to wonder why even post the question here. A writer of fiction can make up any circumstance he or she can imagine. The actual reality has little to do with it. So, a fiction writer described an NDE where the person, blind since birth, has recall of visual details. It's fiction. It's interesting that the author included this, but not all that unusual.

Fiction writers make things up. This fiction writer made something up. It's fiction. It can't be discussed as a real phenomenon, because the entire anecdote never occurred in real life. It was created in the author's imagination.

We can discuss things that are supposed to have actually happened. There's no way to discuss fiction as though a fictional thing actually happened.

The best answer is that such things can't happen. Unless you can find an actual account from someone saying such a thing actually happened, there's nothing to discuss nor any way for anyone to say how or why something that didn't happen happened.