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MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 12:53 PM Apr 2012

The Gunshine State


How the NRA attained dominance in the 'Gunshine State

By DARA KAM
Palm Beach Post Capital Bureau
Updated: 9:21 a.m. Saturday, April 7, 2012
Posted: 11:18 p.m. Friday, April 6, 2012

TALLAHASSEE — Gun rights supporters and gun control activists alike see Florida as one of the nation’s gun-friendliest states.

Its reputation as the “Gunshine State” is rooted in politics, culture and the seemingly irresistible force of Marion Hammer, a soft-spoken grandmother who parlayed her gun rights advocacy in Florida into becoming the first female president of the National Rifle Association.

The Feb. 26 shooting death of unarmed Trayvon Martin by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in Sanford has cast a national spotlight on Florida’s first-in-the-nation “stand your ground” law, which allows individuals who feel threatened to use deadly force to defend themselves in any public place where they have a right to be.

But that law is just one of a slew of pro-gun laws that Florida has put on the books in the past 25 years.

It started in 1987 when Florida became the first state to create a “shall issue” concealed weapons license.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/how-the-nra-attained-dominance-in-the-gunshine-2288357.html?cxtype=rss_state
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The Gunshine State (Original Post) MrScorpio Apr 2012 OP
And yet overall crime here is down to a 40-year low. Daniel537 Apr 2012 #1
Quiet, you. How dare you introduce facts or logic into such an emotionally-driven subject? Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #2
Time for Fact-control then i guess. Daniel537 Apr 2012 #3
To some, facts are doubleplus ungood. Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #5
However, murders in Miami-Dade county doubled from 2009 to the year 2020. Kaleva Apr 2012 #7
Monroe County actually, and i believe they meant to write 2010, however Daniel537 Apr 2012 #9
But the justifiable homicide rate has tripled SecularMotion Apr 2012 #10
Can you prove that any of those cases ruled as justifiable was in fact not? n/t Daniel537 Apr 2012 #11
Was the murder of Trayvon Martin justifiable? SecularMotion Apr 2012 #12
I certainly don't think so. So what about the other cases? n/t Daniel537 Apr 2012 #13
But you're sure all the other cases were justifiable? SecularMotion Apr 2012 #17
Where did i say that? Daniel537 Apr 2012 #19
Where did i say that? SecularMotion Apr 2012 #21
Wild West? Daniel537 Apr 2012 #22
Dodge. PavePusher Apr 2012 #14
Avoiding the question. What about the other cases? Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #15
has that case been declared justifiable homicide yet belcffub Apr 2012 #20
Which is kind of the point krispos42 Apr 2012 #34
The point is that gun violence has increased and Florida is becoming the Wild West. SecularMotion Apr 2012 #37
Really? bongbong Apr 2012 #28
Better policing and many other factors may be the reason ... spin Apr 2012 #32
which is why I'm perplexed. I would like to sell off some of my guns NightWatcher Apr 2012 #4
Well, that's certainly your choice. Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #8
none of them are old. NightWatcher Apr 2012 #31
You're far more likely to get a good price that way. You could also put the up for consignment Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #36
You could, of course, talk to a local gun shop about doing transfers with a NICS check. PavePusher Apr 2012 #16
My rule is that I only sell a firearm to a person who has a valid concealed weapons permit ... spin Apr 2012 #33
Thanks for the link. -..__... Apr 2012 #6
as long as the counts are less then NY we should all be safe belcffub Apr 2012 #18
Dude, you've been swamped -- Hell Hath No Fury Apr 2012 #23
"HOLY .357 MAGNUM, BATMAN"!!! -..__... Apr 2012 #24
I remember this one. Blatantly pro-gun control issue which actually donated the proceeds of the Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #26
I wonder if DC Comics was on the NRA "enemies list" ellisonz Apr 2012 #27
--- -..__... Apr 2012 #29
Nah. It was a one-shot. Johnny Rico Apr 2012 #35
Wow. I can't even do the percentage increases and I'm good at math. CanonRay Apr 2012 #25
Gimme my guns! Gun grabbers! Kingofalldems Apr 2012 #30

Kaleva

(36,248 posts)
7. However, murders in Miami-Dade county doubled from 2009 to the year 2020.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:16 PM
Apr 2012

"but the county saw a 100% increase in murders: from 3 in 2009 to 6 in 2020."

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
9. Monroe County actually, and i believe they meant to write 2010, however
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:21 PM
Apr 2012

is there any proof that Stand Your Ground had something to do with those additional 3 murders? Do we even know the method of killing?

 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
10. But the justifiable homicide rate has tripled
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:23 PM
Apr 2012

"In the seven years since it was enacted, the Florida law and others like it have become an effective defense for an increasing number of people who have shot others, according to state records and media reports.

Justifiable homicides in Florida have tripled, according to Florida Department of Law Enforcement data. Other states have seen similar increases, FBI statistics show."

http://www.adn.com/2012/04/08/2412644/justifiable-homicides-increasing.html

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
19. Where did i say that?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:49 PM
Apr 2012

Your the one questioning whether all the cases were correctly ruled, so as such i'm asking you if you think the police/state attorneys/judges/juries got them all wrong.

 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
21. Where did i say that?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:54 PM
Apr 2012

The point is that Florida is turning into the Wild West since gun laws have been weakened.

Statistics that show a decrease in crime rates don't tell the whole story. Gun violence has increased since murder-by-gun has been decriminalized.

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
22. Wild West?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:56 PM
Apr 2012

I take it you've never heard of Caracas, Baghdad, Mogadishu, Ciudad Juarez etc...? If things are really that bad here, you should tell all those Cuban rafters who try to reach our shores every week that their headed towards a hell-hole! Turn back while you can!

belcffub

(595 posts)
20. has that case been declared justifiable homicide yet
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:50 PM
Apr 2012

I posted this in another thread... seems to still fit

Under Stand Your Ground law a spike in justifiable homicides but there may be many causes

The majority of justifiable homicides among civilians occurred during commission of a felony by the victim. But the data show fully 60 percent of all killings ruled justifiable from 2000 to 2010 in Florida involved shootings by police who, because they deal with armed criminals on a daily basis, are trained in the use of deadly force and granted greater leeway in applying it.


so from your earlier posting and what I have read elsewhere the number of justifiable homicides in Florida went from 12 to 32ish per year... but if 60% are committed by law enforcement you are probably talking about 14 non-law enforcement justifiable homicides.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
34. Which is kind of the point
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:46 PM
Apr 2012

Although keep in mind that they "tripled" from about 35 to about 100. So those 800,000 CCW permittees managed to kill only an extra 65 people in self-defense in a year, some of which will be home-defense situations where CCW is not a factor.

I don't see the problem with an extra 65 violent attackers dead by their intended victims a year. Probably stopped 10x that number of violent crimes.

 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
37. The point is that gun violence has increased and Florida is becoming the Wild West.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:16 PM
Apr 2012

It makes no difference if the shooters were civilians or police, if the killings were justified or not, or if the shooter or victim were criminals. They were all incidents of gun violence.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
28. Really?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 02:24 PM
Apr 2012

The earth got warmer too. Why do you think that gun laws caused the lower crime rate? I contend that it is the warmer earth doing it.

Prove me wrong.

spin

(17,493 posts)
32. Better policing and many other factors may be the reason ...
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:09 PM
Apr 2012

but while the new gun laws may not be the only cause of the decrease in the violent crime rate the fact that the violent crime rate decreased does prove that the new gun laws did not cause the violent crime rate to skyrocket.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
4. which is why I'm perplexed. I would like to sell off some of my guns
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:10 PM
Apr 2012

but there's no way I want them to fall into bad hands. I've quite a few handguns and rifles (including big scary ones I used to use for work- security and investigations) that I no longer need. I'm hoping to find friends or family who will give them a good home. My friend said I could sell them online, but I'd hate myself and be racked with guilt if they were ever used in a crime or accident.

 

Johnny Rico

(1,438 posts)
8. Well, that's certainly your choice.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:17 PM
Apr 2012

You're certainly restricting your ability to sell them by not being willing to sell them to someone you don't know personally. Be aware that if you did choose to sell them on the internet (at a website such as gunbroker.com) you would have to sell them to someone who already had a Federal Firearms License (FFL) unless the buyer was in your state. Even then, some states require such private sales to go through an FFL. The FFL-holding person you sold it to would then have to follow all Federal firearms laws if they chose to re-sell it.

Er, I don't suppose any of those handguns are military issue, WW2 or earlier...?

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
31. none of them are old.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:02 PM
Apr 2012

I forgot if I went online that the buyer would have to be checked out by the ffl where they received the shipment. I may look into that. Thanks

 

Johnny Rico

(1,438 posts)
36. You're far more likely to get a good price that way. You could also put the up for consignment
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:16 PM
Apr 2012

at a local gun shop; the same rules would apply.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
16. You could, of course, talk to a local gun shop about doing transfers with a NICS check.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:37 PM
Apr 2012

Come on, you don't really need us to do this thinking for you, really?

spin

(17,493 posts)
33. My rule is that I only sell a firearm to a person who has a valid concealed weapons permit ...
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:30 PM
Apr 2012

and I also have to personally know the buyer.

The last time I sold any firearms was five years ago when I retired and moved from the Tampa Bay area of Florida. I sold five handguns to a co-worker and fellow shooter who had a carry permit and therefore had went through a background check. He tried out all these handguns on the range and was very satisfied that they were in excellent condition and functional reliable and accurate.

I was confident that my firearms had found a safe owner and would not be misused. I had found other handguns though the years which I personally preferred and rarely took the weapons I sold to the range.

I would like to see the NICS background check system currently in use for new purchases required for the sale of all private firearms or at least opened up for sellers who wished to insure that the weapons that they sold we not being bought by an individual with a criminal background.

I understand your concern. I would never want to see one of my firearms misused.



 

-..__...

(7,776 posts)
6. Thanks for the link.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:13 PM
Apr 2012

Some pretty impressive accomplishments on the NRA's behalf...



Florida gun laws

The National Rifle Association has achieved many victories in Florida 
in recent years, but it’s been forced to compromise on a few measures.

NRA victories

Lists (2004): Prohibits creation of lists of gun owners by any governmental agency or private person or entity and creates a $5 million fine for creating any lists or registry.

Stand your ground (2005): Expands the ‘Castle Doctrine,’ which allowed people to use deadly force when acting in self-defense in their homes, to include cars and any public place where they have a lawful right to be. Gives the presumption of innocence to people who claim self-defense when they use deadly force. Also removes a person’s duty to retreat in the face of peril that was required under a previous self-defense law.

Public records (2006): Exempts permits to carry concealed weapons from public records laws, allowing people who have the permits to remain anonymous.

Pawnshops (2009): 
Blocks law enforcement officials from collecting data on firearm sales at pawnshops.

Adoption (2010): Prohibits adoption agencies from requiring prospective adoptive parents to disclose information about gun ownership and restricts 
 gun ownership from being used to determine someone’s suitability to adopt a child.

Local laws (2011): Prevents local governments from enacting ordinances regulating firearms and ammunition. Includes a $5,000 fine, possible suspension, for elected officials who violate the law. The new law forced counties and municipalities to wipe hundreds of ordinances off the books. The Palm Beach County Commission has sued Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi over the law, arguing its sanctions ‘are a form of political bullying that serves no governmental purpose.’

Age limit (2012): Requires the state to issue a concealed weapons permit to applicants younger than 21 if they have military experience and are otherwise eligible. Otherwise the age requirement is 21 and older.

belcffub

(595 posts)
18. as long as the counts are less then NY we should all be safe
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 01:48 PM
Apr 2012

NY has around 1,000,000 permit holders now... Erie County (where I live) I think was around 50,000 permit holders... but I would have to double check when I get home for an exact count... I get a yearly update to all NY weapons laws and they publish the numbers by county...

 

Johnny Rico

(1,438 posts)
26. I remember this one. Blatantly pro-gun control issue which actually donated the proceeds of the
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 02:14 PM
Apr 2012

sales to a gun control organization.

 

Johnny Rico

(1,438 posts)
35. Nah. It was a one-shot.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:15 PM
Apr 2012

While mainstream comics can be counted on to have the occasional anti-gun message slipped in (especially in Batman books), in large part they stay away from politics.

CanonRay

(14,084 posts)
25. Wow. I can't even do the percentage increases and I'm good at math.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 02:11 PM
Apr 2012

Astounding and very scary. i'm sure all 42,000 of those Orange county folks are responsible though. Right.

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