Guardian UK - Robin Williams's Death: A Reminder that Suicide and Depression Are Not Selfish

[Hissyspit]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish

Robin Williams's death: a reminder that suicide and depression are not selfish

News of Robin Williams’s death due to apparent suicide, said to be a result of suffering severe depression, is terribly sad. But to say taking your own life because of such an illness is a ‘selfish’ act does nothing but insult the deceased, potentially cause more harm and reveal a staggering ignorance of mental health problems

- snip -

If you are such a person who has expressed these views or similar for whatever reason, here’s why you’re wrong, or at the very least misinformed, and could be doing more harm in the long run.

Depression IS an illness

Depression, the clinical condition, could really use a different name. At present, the word “depressed” can be applied to both people who are a bit miserable and those with a genuine debilitating mood disorder. Ergo, it seems people are often very quick to dismiss depression as a minor, trivial concern. After all, everyone gets depressed now and again, don’t they? Don’t know why these people are complaining so much.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; dismissing the concerns of a genuine depression sufferer on the grounds that you’ve been miserable and got over it is like dismissing the issues faced by someone who’s had to have their arm amputated because you once had a paper cut and it didn’t bother you. Depression is a genuine debilitating condition, and being in “a bit of a funk” isn’t. The fact that mental illness doesn’t receive the same sympathy/acknowledgement as physical illness is often referenced, and it’s a valid point. If you haven’t had it, you don’t have the right to dismiss those who have/do. You may disagree, and that’s your prerogative, but there are decades’ worth of evidence saying you’re wrong.

- snip -

Depression is not “logical”

If we’re being optimistic, it could be said that most of those describing suicide from depression as selfish are doing so from a position of ignorance. Perhaps they think that those with depression make some sort of table or chart with the pros and cons of suicide and, despite the pros being far more numerous, selfishly opt for suicide anyway?

This is, of course, nonsensical. One of the main problems with mental illness is that is prevents you from behaving or thinking “normally” (although what that means is a discussion for another time). A depression sufferer is not thinking like a non-sufferer in the same way that someone who’s drowning is not “breathing air” like a person on land is. The situation is different. From the sufferers perspective, their self-worth may be so low, their outlook so bleak, that their families/friends/fans would be a lot better off without them in the world, ergo their suicide is actually intended as an act of generosity? Some might find such a conclusion an offensive assumption, but it is no more so than accusations of selfishness.

The “selfish” accusation also often implies that there are other options the sufferer has, but has chosen suicide. Or that it’s the “easy way out”. There are many ways to describe the sort of suffering that overrides a survival instinct that has evolved over millions of years, but “easy” isn’t an obvious one to go for. Perhaps none of it makes sense from a logical perspective, but insisting on logical thinking from someone in the grips of a mental illness is like insisting that someone with a broken leg walks normally; logically, you shouldn’t do that.

Stephen Fry, in his interview on Richard Herring’s podcast, had a brilliant explanation about how depression doesn’t make you think logically, or automatically confide in friends and family. I won’t spoil it by revealing it here, but I will say it involves genital warts.

MORE AT LINK

[joeybee12]

1. KNR

[enlightenment]

2. Thank you for posting this.

There are few things that irritate me more than listening to that sort of self-centered nonsense. The moment I hear someone say "how selfish" I know that they have a lack of empathy that borders on its own pathology.

One thing I will disagree with is that a depressed person is, by virtue of the disease, not thinking logically. That may be true - but it isn't a given. That presumption is built on a baseline of what constitutes "normal" - and the writer is honest enough to admit that the term is also open to debate. To say that someone suffering from severe depression isn't thinking the same way as someone who is not suffering from severe depression is reasonable - but it doesn't follow that the sufferer isn't thinking logically.

[LordGlenconner]

20. "I know that they have a lack of empathy that borders on its own pathology"

How about instead of writing people off because we think they are ignorant sociopaths, we educate them instead?

I had this same experience last night with someone who I have known for 20 years who is an otherwise well meaning, compassionate person who is very socially conscious. I had to walk her through many of the concepts contained in this OP before the light finally came on.

[enlightenment]

25. Okay -

how about reading what is written instead of inventing commentary?

I did not suggest that people who do this are "ignorant sociopaths" or in any way suggest that I "write them off" because of their comment. I said that I find it irritating and that it shows a distinct lack of empathy that borders on its own pathology.

I'm very happy you were able to educate your friend.

[hlthe2b]

3. Boy... is this article welcome and needed.

Those "selfish", "chose easy way out" comments are so untrue and so horrendous--especially to the survivor's family, I can only hope that society will learn to know "better" and to think accordingly towards those who make those cruel comments/assessments.

Until you have walked a mile in the severely depressed individual's shoes (or those of the family of the "lost&quot , you have NO idea.

Bless Robin Williams and all who have suffered that horrendous dark pain. May we find better ways to treat it and move from our ignorance on its causes and consequences.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

4. k and r big-time.

Dismissing an amputation because you once got over a paper cut. Great analogy.

[LittleBlue]

5. That word is disgusting

"Selfish"

F- that.

[Shemp Howard]

6. This article is just plain wrong.

The author is saying that if you consider suicide to be a selfish act, then somehow you aren't seeing depression as an illness.

Nonsense.

Depression is an illness, and often a serious illness. And, as the author said, many who suffer from it are not logical. Those who commit - or attempt - suicide are not evil or stupid people.

But what is a selfish act? It is an act where you put your own needs above the needs of others. It is an act where you are focusing on your own perceived benefits, and not on the possible damage that can be done to others.

Depression is not a selfish act. Depression is not an act at all. It is a condition, an illness.

But suicide is a selfish act. It fits the definition, any way you look at it. The reasons for a particular suicide can be understood, and those hurt by it can forgive. Nevertheless, suicide is a selfish act.

I am not calling a person who committed suicide a selfish person! Just as I would not call a desperate, hungry person who stole food a thief. I am not criticizing the person. I am calling the act just what it is.

[LanternWaste]

18. suicide is antithetical to selfishness as it illustrates anything but care to oneself.

Seems to me that as part of the definition of the word Selfish is 'devoted to caring only for oneself', suicide would be antithetical to selfishness as it illustrates anything but care to oneself.

[Rex]

19. I just don't get how people misunderstand that one crucial point.

If one was selfish, (caring only about themselves) then suicide seems to go directly against the 'caring' part.

[passiveporcupine]

22. You are wrong

Would you consider "assisted suicide" of a terminally ill patient who is suffering or soon going to be unable to make decisions for himself a "selfish" act?

Yes, death does leave mourners behind, but often death relieves serious pain and suffering for the person who died.

I don't call choosing that end a selfish act. I call it a very sensible act for someone who feels like the pain is never going to end.

I feel the most strongly about older people who have suffered from depression their whole lives, like Robin has. Young people can often get help and live a good life, but if you've been living with depression on and off your whole life, it doesn't matter that maybe it can be fixed for awhile...what matters is you know it's going to come back. You know that death is the only way to end it for good. Why should one person have to spend a lifetime of suffering to prevent grief for a loved one...grief may last a long time, but not a lifetime. I wouldn't want one of my pets suffering to keep me from grieving their loss, nor would I a family member.

I believe in assisted suicide in terminal cases. I don't believe someone suffering from life-long depression is criminal for taking their life, or doing a selfish act. They are taking the only action they know how to take to stop a situation that they have suffered with their whole life. I don't blame them at all. I do grieve for those who have to live with the loss, but they should not blame the person either. It takes a lot of courage to take your own life. Nobody wants to die. If you take an action that extreme, to stop suffering that there is no other way to stop, I think you are brave (and maybe right in doing it), and I am just very thankful and relieved your suffering is now ended. I have empathy for your loved ones, but we all have to learn to deal with grief and loss in our lives. It's part of the human condition.

People who don't suffer from serous prolonged depression may never understand this. I get it...but it does not make "suicide" a selfish act.

[Shemp Howard]

24. You missed my point.

I am saying that suicide is a selfish act.

You are actually talking about something else, that suicide is sometimes the proper thing to do. Well, sometimes a selfish act really is the proper thing to do. But that doesn't make the act any less selfish.

There are rare cases when a suicide isn't selfish. That would be when the person actually believes that others would be better off without him/her.

But in most cases, suicides are not like that. The person commits suicide to escape pain or anguish. The person is thinking more about his/her own pain, and less about the pain of others. That's understandable, and in some cases it might even be "proper", but it is also selfish.

And to save you some time, no need to respond with something like "you don't know how bad it can be..." I do know, and that's why I'm so passionate about this.

[passiveporcupine]

26. You need to find a better word

Selfish:
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

Doing what is right or necessary, or seems to be what is right or necessary at the time, does not mean you lack consideration for others or are doing it for your own profit or pleasure.

Sorry...the term selfish in this regard is just insulting.

[Shemp Howard]

27. I think you're right!

The word "selfish" still applies here, in the strictest sense of the word. But you're right, the word is harsh, and carries with it a sense of condemnation.

Please remember that I am discussing the act, not the person. And a person who commits suicide should not be condemned. For that person is not evil, stupid, lazy, or cowardly.

But that person is still inflicting a terrible pain on others. Perhaps that is unavoidable, and must happen. But yet it is pain.

So I agree, "selfish" is not the best word to use here. But what word can replace it, and still take into account the infliction of pain (however unintentional) on the survivors?

[passiveporcupine]

28. why is their temporary pain more important than his life-time of pain?

Of course if people loved him, they will suffer grief and pain from his death. But if they would look at it realistically, they would be relieved for his end of suffering and know that it was never intended to hurt them.

[Shemp Howard]

32. Why do you assume the survivor's pain will be temporary?

A number of years ago, my 16 year old cousin was dropped by his girlfriend. So he went home and killed himself. He was his grandmother's favorite. She died of grief within a year.

Her pain never ended. And you can be sure that she was not relieved that her favorite was no longer suffering.

It is difficult to discuss this. And please understand, in no way am I trying to make you feel uncomfortable.

In my own imperfect way here's what I am trying to do. I'm hoping that maybe one person somewhere will read my post, and think about what I had to say before considering suicide.

[passiveporcupine]

33. I'm very sorry for your loss and your Grandmother's (in-law?) pain and loss

Yes, for some people, the pain of losing a loved one can be terrible. It often happens with older people, that losing a spouse means they will quickly follow. Older people tend to be more emotional with fewer resources for recovery.

My Mom is old now too and we recently lost my brother-in-law. It hit her extremely hard, and her health has declined rapidly (her will to live is diminished). But parent's are supposed to die before their children (if only life was fair, right?). So yes, at times the grief might be too much for some frail people. But most of us do recover from our grief. We never totally lose it (we never really forget it), but it usually fades over time. Our systems are designed to accept and block the pain and try to remember the good times. I haven't gotten to that point yet with my BIL, and it's been over a year now. I'm still feeling hopeless about it. I'm not saying it's easy for the survivors, but the person who has lived a life of severe depression, how long should they have to suffer, just so no one else does?

In the case of your cousin, it sounds like something that could have been dealt with if he'd gotten help for it. Unless he too suffered from depression his whole life. If he killed himself over the failure of a relationship, it sounds like he had a lot of stuff going on for longer than just that event, and maybe he too was suffering for a lot longer than you even knew. If so, and if the rest of his life (had he continued to live) been hell for him, would you have wanted that, just so his grandma wouldn't have to feel the loss and pain of his death?

I understand where you are coming from, and why you are sensitive about this, but I'm not sure you are allowing yourself empathy for the person who is feeling the depression so badly they just need a way to stop the pain.

If you personally have never been that depressed, then perhaps you don't understand the pain suffered in a seriously depressed state. The absolute hopelessness and failure to thrive (no will to live). But it is still not a selfish act. It's self-defense.

I really hope that young people suffering from depression can get the help they need to change and learn to live a happier and more fulfilling life. But for those who have nothing but pain ahead, because nobody can fix their problem, I do not wish further suffering on them.

[Shemp Howard]

34. Very thoughtful post, thanks.

It's clear that we will agree on some things here, and disagree on others. But you have been very civil to me, and I hope I've been civil to you.

And when people who disagree have a civil conversation, both will gain perspective. That's a very good thing.

Perhaps the next time we cross paths at a post, we'll be in complete agreement. It could be at a "Bernie Sanders for President" post (just kidding...maybe ).

[uppityperson]

40. No more selfish than refusing chemotherapy when you have cancer

[malaise]

7. This should be added to that offensive thread from last night

Rec

[madashelltoo]

8. Todd Bridges said this on TMZ

And, if I had been close I would have popped him in the lips like a child who spoke an insult about what he did not know. Measuring others by your pain ruler is always going to be wrong. If we were cookie cutter images the world would be a boring place because genius like Robin Williams displayed would never exist.

[rickyhall]

9. Yes, depression is a disease, however,

I'm not convinced prescription anti-depressants do all that much good, except for big pharma. I myself have tried several, they were hard on my liver, they put me through withdrawals which were worse than they depression and they really didn't help much. In my own case, like quitting smoking, I had to do it by myself. The only thing that ever helped me is still illegal in most red states.

[get the red out]

11. They saved my life

and my quality of life. Everyone is different. If someone had told me you will die in a year if you take these yet feel like I do now while taking them. I would have still taken them.

Mine are also generic. No "big pharma" making current loads of money from them. There is so much anti-mental health medication sentiment these days that it makes me want to become a supporter of Big Pharma and totally kiss their ass just because I'm so tired of purists vs medical care.

[hunter]

15. Can I live with you if I go off my meds?

I'm a difficult person to live with even when I'm stable on meds.

Off my meds I'm impossible to live with. I'm the scary homeless guy you don't want to make eye-contact with for the superstitious fear that some of his dark demons will leap out and take you too.

I know from research and experience that "big pharma" is as corrupt as big banks or the military industrial complex. Nevertheless, modern meds keep me somewhat functional.

Some people have mental health issues that don't respond to current medications, or issues that are not of a chemical origin to begin with. There are doctors who are too quick to prescribe anti-depressants just as there are doctors who are too quick to prescribe antibiotics, just to get a patient out the door. But for many people meds, either psych meds or antibiotics, can be life savers.

[davidpdx]

39. That sounds very familar

I'm a difficult person to live with even when I'm stable on meds.

I'm the same way. Thankfully I haven't missed my meds in a long long time.

[laundry_queen]

16. I think it depends on the person and situation

I was told I was suffering from post-partum depression after my second child and went on anti-depressants. I stayed on them for the next 8 years, only going off twice (when I was pregnant with #3 and 4). I found they made me somewhat zombie-like. I didn't break down and cry anymore (at one point, I went without crying a single tear for 2.5 years. No crying at all, which was not like me at ALL, even as a kid I cried all of the time, especially when I was angry) and the happy moments were 'meh'.

Eventually, I went off of them against the advice of my doctor and wow. I realized that my husband was emotionally abusive. I had been putting up with it because it didn't bother me while I was on the meds. I found out he was cheating and didn't want to work on the marriage so I left. It was during that time I was dealing with withdrawals of the meds too - not a fun time. My psychiatrist gave me a tranquilizer to put under my tongue to get me over my panic attacks. I only used it once - just knowing it was there helped. After a few months I realized - I was NEVER depressed. Not clinically. I did have some post-partum anxiety that could've used some cognitive behavioral therapy, but almost every issue I had, even the anxiety, stemmed from the fact that my husband was emotionally abusive, not supportive and manipulative (he's a sociopath for sure). It's like my subconscious knew and triggered the anxiety, but the medication made me just accept and deal with the abuse. I had no ambition to improve the situation until I went off the medication. I feel like anti-depressants really fucked up my life and made me WASTE 8 years with an asshole (at least I got 2 more beautiful kids out of it).

However, I do know many people who have benefitted from the meds. I know many women especially that needed them temporarily so they could DEAL with life while they went through post-partum depression or divorce. The meds can be helpful. The biggest problem is that GPs are allowed to dish them out. It should be illegal to allow someone those drugs without getting therapy first or with them. In my case, a good therapist could have helped me to see the situation I was in. Instead, the meds masked it. I never should've been on them in the first place.

[steve2470]

17. My meds keep me alive, it is NOT the placebo effect nt

[fascisthunter]

36. ummmmm

nope

[get the red out]

10. When someone calls it "selfish"

I think of them as saying "How DARE they use this "depression" excuse to cause even more problems for everyone than they already have?"

[Shoonra]

12. It may seem paradoxical ...

It may seem illogical or counter-intuitive that some who had gotten treatment for severe depression, and supposedly was improving from it, would then commit suicide. But you'll notice that many of the anti-depression medicines being advertised on TV include some warning about 'beware of suicidal thoughts'. You may wonder, Why would someone commit suicide when they have already been lifted above their lowest point.

One of the hallmarks of deep clinical depression is that the mental gears are, in a manner of speaking, gummed up. The person in the depest depths of depression may think of suicide constantly - but he cannot cogitate on methods. Something in his memory suggests that suicide means, for example, jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge -- and that's it. He drags himself through the days saying, If only I could get out of here and had enough money I'd drive to the Golden Gate Bridge. He may go to work and come home, ignoring the subway tracks, the railroad tracks, the nearby river, the gas oven, etc., because he cannot, in his deep depression, fully analyze the issue of how to commit suicide by ways other than the Golden Gate Bridge. For countless depressives, this mental paralysis at the bottommost point of depression actually keeps them alive.

But when a depressive gets treatment and starts to improve, he says to himself, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, I can try to cope with life's difficulties .... and, by the way, now that I think about it, there are a lot of ways besides the Golden Gate Bridge, odd that I didn't think of them before.

Perhaps, once he's gotten treatment and is on Prozac or some other medication, he shows more normal behavior, gets some energy, does more stuff. But he's seen the pit of Depression already, he knows what hell it is, and he doesn't want to go back there. At some moment, maybe weeks or months or even years after his improvement starts, some event causes him to slip down into depression again. He dreads hitting bottom yet again - and this time, right now, not quite at the bottom thanks to his medication, he's got the energy - and, perhaps more importantly, the mental agility - to think of a suicide method much more practical and available than the Golden Gate Bridge. He will use his recently acquired improved physical and mental energy to euthanize himself rather than hit the bottom of depression again.

That's why they tell us to keep an eye on depressives who have responded to treatment. Your instincts tell you that suicide is no longer on the table, but in fact it may be even more of a possibility than before.

Robin Williams had been able to conquer, or at least escape his demons -- but they found his address, and rather than face them all again, he took a way out. It seems so illogical and painful to people who felt laughter and love because of him.

[Zorra]

13. Recommend nt

[progressoid]

14. Thanks for this Hissy.

I've heard Stephen Fry talk about his mental health often.

[NightWatcher]

21. Shame that we have to cross the pond for common sense from the media

But hey, such is life

[EEO]

23. Suicide is not selfish. It is the result of someone being in such overwhelming pain they can no...

... longer take it any more. It could be emotional pain, physical pain, or both. Not only have I witnessed and been impacted by the struggle of family members in all three cases, but I fit into the third. I don't know whether the first pain described resulted in the second pain described, or the other way around, but I do know they take a great deal of effort to fight every day.

[Uncle Joe]

29. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Hissyspit.

[brewens]

30. I once had myself convinced suicide was the logical thing to do. I mean totally.

I really wanted to hang myself. I was choosing that, even though I had guns, because I didn't want to leave a gruesome mess for someone to find and deal with. That part wouldn't have been selfish.

I even went so far as to devise an ingenious semi-automatic way to hang myself in case I didn't have the courage to actually kick over the stool. The only thing that stopped me was that my mom was still alive and battling cancer. I decided I couldn't do it. Good thing, because after awhile I got over being dumped by that girl, at least mostly.

Now I think I'm immune from anything ever messing me up like that. I don't think I can fall as madly in love or crash so bad. Kind of a shame about the love part but I'm happy with the woman I've been with for seven years now.

[WillyT]

31. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[fascisthunter]

35. Let us go

thanks...

Selfish? No, not really... not if you want us to live in pain. Who is selfish? Don't understand depression? Read up on it. Thanks in advance.

[LeftishBrit]

37. k&r

[Enthusiast]

38. Kicked and recommended!

Thank you, Hissyspit.

[Victor_c3]

41. I'm a recent suicide attempt survivor

My attempt was on 25 June 2014. I wrote a rather lengthy post about it a few weeks back in the veterans group on this forum.

10 days after being released from the psych ward I readmitted myself after more suicidal thoughts started to permeate my head. They aren't logical or controllable. At least for me, they take over every aspect of my being. I'm scheduled to return to a 45 day inpatient PTSD rehab program on Tuesday and I'm doing my best to make it until then.

I'm not sure if suicidal ideation, major depression, or PTSD is something anyone can ever really cure or get over. I hate to say it, but I'm less than optimistic.

Someone said something to me recently that really appealed to the "Soldier" in me. People like me suffer so that people like my wife and children don't have to. For that reason alone, I'm trying my best to keep on going.