"Cowardly, Selfish"

[TygrBright]

Last edited Tue Aug 12, 2014, 06:11 PM - Edit history (1)

(Trigger warning: I will be discussing suicidal thoughts.)

Right here on DU, someone explained it: Suicide is an inherently selfish act -and in that one, there's the implication of cowardice, as well. ("never allows for resolution of issues for that person or others around them".)

And someone else here on DU noted that the Guardian's science blogger is wrong about it not being selfish.

I acquit folks writing such stuff here on DU of malice. I don't think they intend to hurt, denigrate, or perpetuate stigma.

But such a monumental lack of understanding and unwillingness to even nod in the direction of empathy is part of a problem for me today.

For me, and many others who suffer from chronic brain disorders-- particularly depressive disorders-- Mr. Williams' widely-reported and -discussed suicide is like having a scab ripped open. It exposes, suddenly and searingly the pain of a wound I am dedicated to healing.

I totally understand Mr. Williams' coping mechanism of humor although I've never been bright or desperate or creative or witty enough to use it successfully myself. But, damn, do I ever do a topnotch impression of "normal." Pulled-together, organized, thoughtful, pleasant, blah-blah-blah... on the rare occasions I have to acknowledge my disease to comparative strangers they are utterly gobsmacked-- they never imagined.

But under the mask I wear, just like under Mr. Williams' more flamboyant, beloved mask, and under masks worn by so many of my fellow-sufferers, the jerkbrain is still trying to kill me.

It's powerful, insidious, and effective. It's nearly succeeded a couple of times. What stopped me wasn't any altruistic impulse or sudden access of courage. Something closer to Divine intervention, maybe.

Be that as it may, here's what I was doing, those times when I decided not to continue breathing:

I was ending pain. I was ending weariness. A seemingly-endless weariness that offered no hope nor joy nor light nor love, nor even real pain or desire or strong feeling of any kind other than desperate, overwhelming gray numbness.

And I knew, because my jerkbrain told me so, that my misery was a drag on everyone else, too. People had to pretend to be nice to me. They had to consider my feelings, even though, lets face it, it had to be a terrible effort for them. Because being around me had to be an awful downer for them. How could it not be? Being around me is a terrible downer for ME. The voice of my jerkbrain tells me:

They would be so much better off without me.

Without my pain intruding on them.

Without my ugliness, my awkward attempts at humor, my fumbling and pathetic attempts to be "one of the gang"-- the human race, that is. Really, much better to leave them to get on with the living that seemed to work pretty well for them, and not have to try and fit such an un-fit-able object as myself into their lives.

And it would be a two-fer! In addition to giving others the gift of not having me around anymore, I'd be done. The effort of rolling the god-damned boulder of existence up the rocky, dusty, acid slope of life would be over.

The jerkbrain comforts me: You never belonged here, anyway.

It unrolls before the long history of rejection, bullying, every pain and every disconnection from the rest of you smooth apes. I am not of the tribe, clearly. I was a mistake.

Each breath continues the mistake of my existence and existence is a wearing, dragging agony of tiredness and numbness and tunnel vision into an endless future of more of the same.

This is not "selfishness." It is an act of altruism to allow the rest of you to continue without having to deal with my pain.

This is not "cowardice," it's just the last erg of energy leached from a weary existence, acknowledged.

Oblivion looks sweet, and beautiful, and NOTHING, a consummation devoutly to be wished, indeed.

If you were the wretched thing I am, you would do this, too. And yes, it may jolt you for a while, temporarily, that I chose this last act of controlling my destiny by ending it, but you will get over the jolt, and the shadow my existence, that interfered with your joy, that will be gone and the sun will shine fully upon you.

I don't pretend to speak for others who have been to that gateway, neither those who have turned back, nor those who stepped through. Nor is that voice "me."

That voice is my jerkbrain, my disease, the thing inside my head that wants me dead.

I choose not to let it win, each day, twenty-four hours at a time. Because twenty-four hours is all I can manage, even with medication that does help, even with a Program that functions as a lifeline, even with the love of friends, family, and dearest soulmate.

THIS twenty-four hours, I choose to keep the jerkbrain from winning.

Not from altruism, not from courage, but because I have given up. I am no longer fighting, I am no longer trying to control it, I have given that control over to a Power Greater than myself, and that Power gives me each twenty-four hours as a precious gift.

So when discussion like today's rips the scab off, I want to share a little of this experience for you, for others, because understanding of WHY suicide happens is so very necessary to helping us KEEP it from happening.

Saying it's about being "selfish" or "cowardly" does not help. It does not make me feel challenged to prove you wrong, or to 'buck up' or to stop being what I am-- a person with a chronic brain disorder. I have no control over that, and your ignorance and lack of understanding does nothing but convince me that the gap between my reality and yours is so wide and unbridgeable I might as well not even try. It gives the jerkbrain one more tool to use against me.

Please think about that, before making assertions about that of which you obviously know nothing.

firmly,
Bright

[PowerToThePeople]

1. I agree

In the end, it is "his body his choice." He was the captain of his ship. This has been the discussion here for some days now, other areas of control but still the same.

[el_bryanto]

2. Well said

It's hard to know what to say about this, once you move past sympathy for Robin Williams and his family. Everybody is different and every case of depression / suicidal thoughts is different. I can talk about how I pull myself out of my depressions, but it may or may not work or even apply to anybody else.

I guess the only thing you can really do is listen and offer what support is requested.

Bryant

[TygrBright]

33. That's actually quite a LOT-- "listen and offer what support is requested."

Feeling helpless in the face of someone else's pain-- especially when it's someone you love-- can be a terrible feeling indeed.

All too often, we rush to "fix" that other person's pain partly because of our own terrible feeling of helplessness. Downthread someone posted some links to Hyperboleandahalf blog, one of the best pieces on depression on the whole Intertoobz, in my opinion.

And she addresses this-- really, what CAN you do for someone else?

Acknowledge their pain without burdening them with your consciousness of it. If they reach out, it's incredibly significant, more than you may be able to imagine, because sometimes the reaching out looks so casual and small. But simply connecting in those moments can be more helpful than you know.

appreciatively,
Bright

[Luminous Animal]

3. This is a remarkably brave and beautiful post. Thank you, Bright.

[smirkymonkey]

52. Yes, it was.

Such a perfect description of how it feels and what the thought process is.

[GitRDun]

4. Thank You!

I could not have said it better myself.

[niyad]

5. you are an incredibly courageous and beautiful soul. there are no words

adequate to thank you for this post.

people who have never experienced this, whether in themselves, or with someone loved and cared for, have absolutely NO idea what is going on, and should keep their ignorant mouths shut.

[get the red out]

6. Thank you

The hatefulness people express toward those who commit suicide is unfathomable.

[hedgehog]

7. Well said! I wish the English language had a different term for clinical depression -

it's not about feeling sad or "depressed" over a life experience such as job loss or death of a loved one (although that can be a trigger). It's not about being pessimistic. (I am generally over-optimistic, and I suffer from depression.) It's not about needing to exercise more, or getting out in the sunshine or doing something fun (It's a side effect of depression that either you can't do those things and/or you get no benefit.) It is pain from within that has no rhyme nor reason.

The best explanation I ever saw was given by Allie Brosh


http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html


http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

[TygrBright]

34. Thank you, thank you! Allie's 2-part blog post is amazing.

It is THE BEST description of depression I have run across on the whole Intertoobz. It's what I send people to, when I just don't have the energy to explain.

"Having no rhyme or reason" is one of the cruelest aspects of this pain. You can appear to have it made, be sitting in the catbird seat, surrounded by material security, loving people, great weather, work you love, everything anyone could ask for... and the jerkbrain turns it all inside out and tells you what a bad person you are for not appreciating all that stuff more. A horrid, horrid negative spiral.

The luckier I am, the less I deserve it, therefore the more awful a person I am... Learning the crazy scripts your brain uses to submarine you can be helpful, but it won't "stop" the brain chemicals from going wonky on you.

appreciatively,
Bright

[LisaLynne]

8. Thank you for writing that.

It was an honor to read it.

[ellaydubya]

9. The Jerkbrain

I don't comment very often but I thought you deserve to know how much your post moved me and how well you described depression- that jerkbrain that dwells in many of us.

Thank you and I wish you well,
Ellaydubya

[bvar22]

10. DURec X 1000

Thank You, TBright.
I've always felt a kinship with you since you started posting here in 2001;
now I know why.

You are a talented writer,
but the above may be the best piece you have ever posted at DU.
It should be spread far and wide,
and included in the Psych Textbooks we studied in college in the vain hope of fixing ourselves.

"I was ending pain. I was ending weariness. A seemingly-endless weariness that offered no hope nor joy nor light nor love, nor even real pain or desire or strong feeling of any kind other than desperate, overwhelming gray numbness."

[TygrBright]

36. Thank you. Yes, we DO connect.

Some of my most valuable and supportive connections are folks on the Internet. No big deal, we just share information and "get it" for one another.

Funny how feeling connection and feeling disconnected happen in the brain, without a whole lot of context in physical interaction.

warmly,
Bright

[bullwinkle428]

11. Honored to K&R this beautiful post.

[world wide wally]

12. That is the most enlightenig insight to come out of this tragedy so far.

I think that when people use words like "selfish" or "cowardly" to explain something like this, they are trying desperately to simplify the matter for their own benefit.

Best of luck to you and hang in there for the next 24 hours.

[locks]

13. A humble thank you

If only we could heal minds, not just bodies.

[amuse bouche]

14. Shep Smith apologized on Tuesday for calling Robin Williams "cowardly" on air.

Many do think suicide is a cowardly act, but they come from ignorance or personal pain

Knowing someone, let alone loving someone, who has committed suicide, is usually a very depressing and agonizing experience. These people are victims too.

[ColesCountyDem]

15. This +1000 ^^^^^! n/t

[steve2470]

16. excellent OP, thanks from a fellow sufferer nt

[calimary]

17. See, this is why we have to dig WAY deeper than just some trite surface dismissal.

There's a Rude Pundit essay elsewhere here - and it really, seriously illustrated (and PAINFULLY, from Rude's own experience) how far we still have to go in our understanding. We have so much rehabilitation to do with our thinking and assumptions about this whole concept and the breadth and depth of this affliction. This is NOTHING simply to be shrugged off, or diminished as cowardly. It's so damn misunderstood, as are those who intimately struggle under the weight of it.

Really needs to be "grokked." http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025373614#post5

The whole thread is worth it.

[TygrBright]

37. Yes! That's an excellent thread, and the Rude One totally gets it.

I was also deeply moved by your post sharing the memory of encountering Mr. Williams when he was "off stage," as he so rarely was.

It's very hard when we see a life stop before WE think is a reasonable time for it to stop.

Yet it's also important to remember that for all the pain in Robin Williams' life, there were many moments of quiet beauty and fulfillment and even joy, too. Each life is, in fact, a perfect whole, complete in itself, no matter how long or short it is, or how it ends.

Mr. Williams' was a work of art, haunting and beautiful.

sadly,
Bright

[onecaliberal]

18. If you have never

Suffered from depression or any form of mental illness do us all a favor and refrain from comment if all you have to say is negative. You would never tell someone with cancer they are selfish for not beating their disease. When you have no point of reference and a lack of compassion for shoes you've never walked in, your comments are pointless.

[Tribalceltic]

19. Thank you

[jeff47]

20. Utterly fantastic post (nt)

[MFM008]

21. excellent

TY

[LoisB]

22. Very well said. Thank you for posting.

[mnhtnbb]

23. Thank you for the discussion

and links to the guardian article.

I have a nephew who made a fb post yesterday--having been tempted to suicide in his teens--
and asserting that The Dead Poets' Society movie helped him to understand how
'selfish' suicide was. I did not know of his 'depression', although I've known
that his mother has been depressed for years and years. (My husband is a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst)

I had coffee this morning--pre-planned coincidentally--with a friend, a mom whose oldest son committed suicide 10 years ago
and my oldest son was asked to be an honorary pallbearer at his funeral.

I appeared in a 2 person play with a woman who later committed suicide. I had not known her very well, beyond
our professional interaction, but I did learn of the anger her brother had (who had cancer) and his accusations
of how 'selfish' she was.

So, we have had personal and professional experience with suicide in our house.

It makes me wonder whether the anger and sadness of loved ones--friends, family--left behind, does not
cause them to strike out with the judgment of "selfishness" applied to the act of suicide, because, indeed, they can
only think of what they are going through, rather than understand the unbearable pain of the person who decides to commit
suicide. Could the label of selfishness really be a case of projection?

[TygrBright]

39. That is very insightful.

There have been two suicides in my family, and I have known personally and professionally at least three individuals who chose to end their own lives because of chronic brain disorders.

As a surviving family member, I know that my own reaction included more than a little selfish "how could they do this to me" feeling, as well as quite a bit of "I totally get that" empathy.

The evolutionary drive for survival is not just an individual drive. We are a social species and we need each other, to form families and tribes for mutual survival and passing on our DNA. At the root, our lives DO belong to one another, in part. So the sense of "How could they?!?" is a very strong one, and even more so when it mingles with a close personal loss.

thoughtfully,
Bright

[BlancheSplanchnik]

24. I wish I could express this stuff

But without sounding whiney and pathetic. !


I don't even have family, or a soul mate. Just my Shrimpy and one friend who I know would be there for me......and many people who like me but have other priorities.

There, see? I sound whiney and pathetic already.

Thanks for speaking up, Tygr. Your eloquence is a wonderful thing.

[TygrBright]

40. Sounding whiney and pathetic goes with the territory.

I think it's also part of the mask.

It's easier to focus on what we wish for and don't have, than on how we are feeling and why. I see this all the time with myself.

It's also a great jumpstart for the jerkbrain to tell me how awful I am for being whiney and pathetic! The ju-jitsu of the disease turns all our attempts to be insightful and mature against ourselves.

So, be kind to yourself.

warmly,
Bright

[BlancheSplanchnik]

42. thanks Bright,

It's true, you're right....the jerkbrain really beats me for sounding whiney and pathetic. That leads to isolating.

[Stuart G]

25. so poignant and honest. and also...

Your last sentence says more than anyone can imagine.

"Please think about that, before making assertions about that of which you obviously know nothing."
Those who have experienced this awful mind retching disease are often referred to in stupid insensitive ways..

Also,,,It takes tremendous courage to keep going with this ...yes it is living this 24 hours only..this 24 seconds..I don't know how we do it..And I can understand when a person may choose to end this..."jerkbrain " self talk...it wants to win..and sometimes, sadly, it does win.

So far, for today, it hasn't won for me and for you...Let us keep trying to "turn it over" and perhaps we can continue on for today, and perhaps, just maybe, we help someone else in the process...maybe......

(like you did in this incredible insightful post..)

Thank You ,


Stuart G

[Jack Rabbit]

26. K/R

From a sick, grumpy old man who has major depression and had his demise all worked out, but didn't go through with it.

[albino65]

27. K/R 100X

[Paka]

28. Thank you for those words.

I too have been there and know what it's like.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. I used to believe just that...

Experience has taught me otherwise. I've dealt with depression personally, and have felt the despair that comes with it. Luckily, I also suffer from existential anxiety, so it kind of equaled itself out for me.
I have friends who have suffered from depression and were suicidal at times. I always made sure to give them an ear, and to get them help when need be.

Depression is a terrible mental disorder that is too often terminal because of the common misconception that one can just "snap out of it" or "it's all in your mind". Awareness is key. Let's hope that Robin's death can help to create some awareness around the subject.

[freedom fighter jh]

30. Your post is eloquent, TygrBright.

May you have peace and happiness in your life.

[Granny M]

31. Thank you, TygrBright. nt

[russspeakeasy]

32. Well done ! Thanks for the post.

[ybbor]

35. Incredible post!

As someone who has thought of suicide many times myself, this week even, I never think of someone, of whom I know far too many, who has taken their life as cowardly or selfish. They/we are just really sick.

If anything, I have thought of them as brave, and when in my deepest throes of despair have asked for strength from them to help me do it. I can only thank The Lord that I have never been "brave" enough to follow through.

It is times like these that I pray for Robin having not known his personal hell, but having been in the neighborhood.

As said many times above it is the stigma attached that makes it worse. You feel that it is a sign of weakness. I am also the happy, jovial person on the outside to hide my inner torment. I would never tell any but my closest friends that I suffer, and even then never let them know I am suffering now. And even if they were to ask, I would never admit for fear of seeming weak.

Anywho, thanks for the amazing post that captures my illness so well, and allowing my personal rant. I think it was a little therapeutic for me.

[TygrBright]

41. One aspect of the Program that keeps me alive is helping others who share this pain.

So, you telling me that responding to my post allowed you to feel understood and get in a little therapeutic rant-- that is important feedback for me.

Now, I'm sharing that back, with you. Your appreciation helped me.

We are connected in the disease. I am grateful.

appreciatively,
Bright

[ybbor]

44. No Thank You!

Your reply means so much to me!

Ybbor

[heaven05]

38. + 10000 --I understand and have

only empathy for people like Robin Williams, et al. I have and am still going there. Peace to you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. Could be worse....

Check out this bile:

http://creationsciencestudy.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/robin-williams-in-hell/

Sorry to hear about your struggle.

[Ferretherder]

45. Thank you, Bright, for what must have been a difficult thing to do.

I've followed your posts for years, and have ALWAYS felt, after reading your comments, just a little more enlightened about the topic of conversation at hand. This post was a very good example of just WHY I have been following your contributions to DU, these many years. I have nothing 'witty', or 'thought-provoking', or the least bit erudite to add to what you have said, other than to offer what I know will sound somewhat trite and even a little bit maudlin, but, I don't care...I think I can even say, with some small bit of confidence, that I speak for most all of us here when I say, DU is here for you.

Anyway, you CAN'T leave us...it's obvious that I am not the only one who waits for your next insightful missive!

And seriously, thank you for bringing some VERY personal, and NEEDED, perspective to this discussion.

[TygrBright]

47. Thank you, Ferretherder! It's been an amazing ride so far, hasn't it?

I think you and I modded together on Old DU at some point, and I told you about the ferrets my cousin keeps-- such smart, funny little friends.

I appreciate the kind feedback more than I can say. DU is sometimes a chaotic place, sometimes a moshpit of passion and differing views, and sometimes the conflict gets to me and I have to take a break from it.

But it IS always here, and people like you and many others are part of what I count on, when there's something important to connect about.

appreciatively,
Bright

[Ferretherder]

68. Truth be told, my friend, I sometimes find it hard to recognize...

...anything resembling the old DU in the current form it has taken. But(sigh), it's the one place I can get the TRUTH about most news stories and (mostly) a reprieve from the right-wing spew that I endure from most of the people that I have to work with and interact with on a daily basis.

And there are some good people here.

...I'm talking to one.

[ms liberty]

46. Thank you...

You are a courageous person to share this with us, and I really appreciate your perspective. Very well written.

[veness]

70. {{{EEO}}} may your life be much easier, sweeter, and pain free.

[TNNurse]

49. Emotional pain is just as real

As physical pain. Sometimes we cannot be aware or see the cause, but it can be debilitating and overwhelming.

I have cared for many patients who have made serious suicide attempts, it is very hard to see alongside someone desperately fighting to live, but we must know and accept that their pain and suffering is real.

[rustydog]

50. I am so tired of hearing "healthcare professionals" and those who work alongside them

refer to a person who attempted suicide as a Coward or someone who took the easy way out...Really?

How did we become so shallow, so uncaring as a nation? Rush, care to answer that?

[bhikkhu]

51. I can't imagine calling suicide selfish or cowardly

...much less entertain arguments like "he was so rich, what could he have to be unhappy about?". It comes down to one's own deliberate decision, however painful or hard that is, or however hard it is for other people. We can't demand to be free, and theorize about free will, and then deny that to someone who sees no other way out or forward, because it is against our own wishes.

I remember growing up myself, often plagued with suicidal thoughts. There was no objective reason for them, I had a good upbringing and a good family, more material goods than most people, and no great traumas in my past. Work and relationships and getting along in life wasn't easy, but it wasn't too hard either. Sometimes things just don't work as they should inside, and sometimes there's no outside reason for it. I kept myself safe by deciding very early to not act when I was feeling low, as I knew objectively that times would follow when I felt fine and I didn't want the bad times to destroy the possibility for good times. It took a good 20 years before I put all that internal division behind me and made the choice to live fully and deliberately.

I wouldn't judge anyone for what they've gone through and the choices they've made. Most of the time we can't see the reasons. I had it pretty easy in comparison to many others, and compassion and understanding (however hard) is still the best approach to anyone, living or dead.

[rurallib]

53. so many things I could say, but mostly I say Thank You

[Iwillnevergiveup]

54. Remarkable post

and all of us are so much the better for reading it. Thank you very much indeed.

[secondwind]

55. Bright, this is so poignant... everything you posted is true... depression hurts and it

can even kill.

please take care of yourself... we care!

[ocd liberal]

56. YES

That's it - you nailed it.

[hedgehog]

57. If there is anything good about this event, it's the general care with which it's been reported -

difficult to put into words, but the tone is that even though he did hang himself, Mr. Williams was killed by a disease.

[mopinko]

58. they would be so much better off without me.

if i hadnt been able to answer that fear with a desperate knowing that there was no one else, i might have easily believed that a bazillion times.
perhaps if my kids had been happy and normal, i would have trusted them to the fates. but they were all so weird. and troubled. hmmmm. weird circles in life.

cowardly? that is one that always cracks me up. always said by those afraid to look death in the face. those who could never muster the positive affirmation of life that it takes some of us to climb out of bed in the morning. those who would crumble into dust if they ever examined their life the way some of us do every day.

fuck those people.

[navarth]

59. One of the most compelling posts I've read here on DU.

I'm surprised someone said something so asshole-ish as to call Robin cowardly, even if they really think it's true (which makes them at least a quiet asshole).

Your post made me feel very deeply. I'm already crushed that we just lost 3 of the greatest people ever:
Jimmy Garner
Robin Williams
Lauren Bacall

and I just heard from a friend that his 2-year-old boy has cancer. I'm feeling a lot right now, and your post touched me deeply. If it gives you any happiness at all, please know that.

Feeling Bad Sucks.

[cleduc]

60. I agree "Cowardly, Selfish" is nonsense and horrible way to express what went on.

I reject that while feeling we don't have a ton of facts to be very conclusive and we may never know.

29 years ago, I lost my best friend. He also had a drug and drinking problem. His grandfather, father, brother and sister all graduated at the top of their medical classes. So he had a lot of good medical support. He also had a couple of friends who really cared and did everything we could imagine to help him. He died after going on a bender and inhaling his vomit.

It was easy to conclude alcoholism and drug abuse was his downfall but it troubled me. We had done every single step of the 12 steps of AA and a whole bunch of other things thoroughly yet still lost him. I continued to communicate with his other good friend over the last 29 years and we'd gone over it and over it trying to figure out where we let him down or screwed up. (and I don't need the customary "it's not your fault" because I needed answers - it bugged me)

Last year, the guy who replaced him as my best friend started to behave somewhat similarly. I was all over it because I didn't want to get hurt again. It was the worst wound of my life. So I went to court and had my friend committed to a psychiatric hospital. They let him out and I had to do that two more times until they kept him for a while. The diagnosis was hypomania bipolar disorder. And I had my answer.

What we (the smart doctors and family) missed 29 years ago was the psychiatric diagnosis and treatment. The drug and alcohol abuse was just a symptom. In fairness to the doctors, not as much was known 29 years ago and the treatment choices we have today are substantially better. But we had treated the symptom of alcoholism and not the whole psychiatric problem. My current dear friend is not out of the woods but we're still working on it and we still have a chance.

Even today, as many would know, the problem with bipolar is kind of like alcoholism - not everyone can be treated successfully and a fair percentage take their own life. With hypomaniacs, the highs are awesome - like a great drug but the lows can be pretty nasty as I understand it (I haven't experienced it).

I'm no psychiatrist but my impression of Robin Williams and his behavior has a ton of similarities to my friends. He struck me as being bipolar with hypomania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania

pressured speech
inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
decreased need for sleep
flight of ideas or the subjective experience that thoughts are racing
easy distractibility and attention-deficit similar to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
increase in psychomotor agitation
involvement in pleasurable activities that may have a high potential for negative psycho-social or physical consequences (e.g., the person engages in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, reckless driving, or foolish business investments).

Now Robin did not publicly display "inflated self-esteem". I don't know if he drove recklessly. He apparently had some money problems which is kind of wild for a guy who is in the top 10 grossing film actors of all time - in spite of his $30 mil combined for two divorces. They don't have to exhibit all the symptoms to be diagnosed with it. It is very common for folks with this condition to deny they have it even after the diagnosis. Sometimes, they take the medication and never accept they have the condition for the balance of their lives.

Having said that, I'm speculating. I don't know for sure. Just passing along some thoughts. But I think that speculation is closer to the mark and more humane than "Cowardly, Selfish".

I haven't been too caught up in the lives of celebrities over the years but a few losses have really got to me: JFK, RFK, MLK and John Lennon. Although they were gunned down and Robin was not, Robin stole my heart and I've been feeling a similar sort of profound loss since I heard the news. From that, I find "Cowardly, Selfish" offensive.

[chervilant]

72. This is the letter I wrote to my bipolar niece (name changed for obvious reasons):

Dearest Susie:

I love you very much. You are my most precious niecie.

I fear you’ve lost sight of that fact. I wonder if you see me as “just like your mother,” or as “the Bad Auntie,” because you seem to interpret all or almost all of my utterances as negatives or “attacks.”

I recognize that a depressed person’s mind can be a never-ending loop of painful, destructive thoughts. I recognize that you want recovery, and that your recovery is a deeply personal experience. I do know that depression is the filter through which you interpret everything, and that negatives are a constant in your experience of your environment, AND those of us with whom you interact.

I confess that I don’t have the skill set necessary to effectively communicate with you. So, I’ve asked a friend of mine if I can quote her most recent blog regarding her challenges, which are so very similar to yours.

So, here goes:

“You have a chronic brain disease. You are mentally ill.”

“You are not a criminal; you are not crippled; you are not thoughtless, you are not dangerous.”

“Chronic brain disorders affect nearly one in three people, at some point in our lives, at some degree of acuity. Some of us experience one temporarily; some of us live with one (or more) for life.”

“Mental illness is not equivalent to stupidity. It is not equivalent to moral turpitude. It is not equivalent to inferiority.”

“If you look at the roster of humanity’s greatest artists, inventors, humanitarians, and idealists, you will find a very high percentage of them with chronic brain disorders.”

Susie, I am concerned that you seem to interpret your mental illness as a definition of who you are—or that you think others do. I am concerned that you are assigning negatives to your disease—and to your presenting issues. I think that avoiding ANY discussion of your disease will keep you mired in the worst of your presenting issues, and render your chances of recovery slim.

Susie, I feel it’s important to mention three of your chronic presenting issues—all of which I’ve been witnessing for the last three months.

First, your dog: he needs and deserves targeted attention. When you interact with him, you sometimes act as though his needs are burdensome, especially when he needs to go out in the early morning. He is smart enough to get that. I am concerned that you seem not to think about his tiny bladder, and how uncomfortable he must feel when he has to wait to go outside.

Second, your attention to your personal hygiene isn’t as effective as it once was. (I had this presenting issue when I was depressed, and I wish someone had told me—I found out by accident…)

Third, your precarious financial reality seems insignificant to you, as you tend to spend borrowed money as though it’s your own hard-earned cash. I am concerned that your dependence on your parents’ money will continue to mire you in debt, and delay your autonomy and independence.

Susie, with any other disease, we don’t stigmatize sufferers. We don’t tell a cancer patient to suck it up and ‘think positive thoughts.’ But, our species certainly does stigmatize those of us who suffer from mental illnesses, and I don’t see that changing any time soon. I mention this, because you seem to view your disease so negatively that you find it easier to deny or minimize your illness, rather than exploring essential steps towards recovery.

I found another resource I want to share with you, written by a young woman who has struggled with depression since she was a child. It’s titled “Ways to Show Love to Someone with Depression.” There are ten ways listed:

1) Help them keep clutter at bay.
2) Fix them a healthy meal.
3) Get them outside.
4) Ask them to help you understand what they’re feeling.
5) Encourage them to focus on self-care.
6) Hug them.
7) Laugh with them.
8) Reassure them that you can handle their feelings.
9) Challenge their destructive thoughts.
10) Remind them why you love them.

I love you because you are YOU, Susie. There is not another human being on this planet with your unique personality, intellect, creativity and sense of humor. I will always love you, precious niecie.

And, with this letter, I hope to encourage you to accept your disease as a manageable fact of your life, and to recognize that you can take steps to pursue recovery, no matter how scary or daunting those steps may appear.

Love always,

Auntie

Because I've done advocacy for survivors of relationship violence for more than thirty years, my niece asked to stay with me for a while to 'pursue recovery.' That's not what happened, ultimately, but -- after she asked for feedback -- I wrote this letter. I don't think she has ever read it, because her mother interceded and 'rescued' her. The positive of this outcome is a strengthening of her relationship with her formerly estranged mother.

Meanwhile, I have noted to trusted friends that our species has not developed strategies for discussing depression and bipolar disorders AND we don't offer love and support to those who suffer. Instead, we act as though they are "dis-eased" and coddle or exclude them. As is obvious from some of the responses to Williams' suicide, many will offer "advice" or assert that the depressed individual should "suck it up!" and "get over it!" Sadly, we don't teach active listening and reflecting back feelings. either.

I believe that depression is the epidemic du jour. I think many, many of us are stressed, depressed, and hanging on by a thread. We live in exponential times, and our bodies are still in linear mode. I hope that my friends are right that "this, too, shall pass."

Thanks for listening. This is the most profound OP I've seen on DU in a long time. I hope that TygrBright will let us send this OP to family and friends.

[cleduc]

76. That was a real nice letter

It's hard to tell what gets through. Sometimes you have to think it through and attempt some different approaches, trying for one that will take hold or be more effective.

I've agonized over Robin's loss some. This article hit home and resonated some with our discussion in this thread:

Carrie Fisher on Robin Williams: 'He Was the Opposite of Selfish'
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/carrie-fisher-on-robin-williams-he-was-the-opposite-94639993537.html

During an exclusive chat with THR by telephone from London, Fisher recounted the details of their discussion in her dressing room. And while she said she had seen Williams between that night and his tragic suicide on Aug. 11, something about that particular evening — his energy and their conversation about bipolar disorder (a prominent subject of her Broadway show and book of the same name) — has stuck with her all these years.

"He … looked lost, kind of, and he said that he didn’t think he was bipolar. He took the test that I gave the audience and got all the answers right, but didn’t think [being bipolar] was something that had anything to do with him," recalled Fisher, who has been candid about her own struggles with mental illness and addiction. "I never heard anything so off the mark. Like I did, he was driven by that frantic eagerness that you don’t just want someone to like you, you want to explode on their night sky like a miracle. And he did."
...
Even off-set, Fisher said she was blown away by his charisma and the way in which he absorbed his surroundings. “Robin had rampant empathy,” explained Fisher, who is currently on location reprising her role as Leia in J.J. Abrams’ Star Wars: Episode VII. “Everything would end up on his grid. He’d walk in a room, and all the energy there would impact him. He was the opposite of selfish. Anything would hurt him. Or … impact him somehow.”

Perhaps it was that unrelenting stream of emotion that led Williams down a difficult path with substance abuse, she said. The comedian had been open in various interviews over the years about his struggles with alcohol and cocaine, as well as stints in rehab. “It’s fun to be brilliant, but who are your peers? Who was his peer?” asked Fisher. “It’s incredibly lonely to be that. And he didn’t have a choice. And that’s why you take drugs, so you can slow up and smell the roses just to know that they are there, and it’s not all you. Drugs for a lot of people kept them alive. Without them they would’ve committed suicide. Not that I think that in any way drugs are positive. But I can certainly understand what drove his need for them, his appetite for them.”

Substances aside, Fisher described Williams as the “center of attention” in any room, which is why she said she was so drawn to him. “He was something you just don’t see, like a comet. I hope he’s like a comet and he comes again, but that would be selfish,” she said, adding that his energy and comic delivery was “unstoppable.” “I’m sorry he punctuated his sentence before it had run its course. But he packed in five lifetimes before he left.”

Fisher's "Wishful Drinking" show was in the Berkeley/San Francisco area around 2008 which is probably when Robin dropped by to see her backstage.

I get the feeling in that moment Carrie got closer to him than most of the other celebrities he worked with - even though they apparently didn't connect regularly.

She had wonderful things to say including "He Was the Opposite of Selfish". The stories about his philanthropy that are starting to come out reinforce that. If he had money problems, it's probably because he gave much of it away.

[cleduc]

81. I was thinking about this quote from my post above:

“It’s fun to be brilliant, but who are your peers? Who was his peer?” asked Fisher. “It’s incredibly lonely to be that. And he didn’t have a choice. And that’s why you take drugs, so you can slow up and smell the roses just to know that they are there, and it’s not all you. Drugs for a lot of people kept them alive. Without them they would’ve committed suicide. Not that I think that in any way drugs are positive. But I can certainly understand what drove his need for them, his appetite for them.”

Robin's death has really got to me. Try to be patient with my speculation below.

Bipolar hypomaniacs, that I suspect Robin suffered from, often do get successful treatment with drugs like lithium for example. BUT, a big BUT in Robin's probable case, and a different slant from Fisher's bolded comments above, if Robin took a drug like that to treat his bipolar condition, it would have taken the mania out of him. It would have killed who Robin perceived he was in the public's eye. It would have dramatically subdued his manic, high speed humor. It would have all but killed his perceived ability to do the only thing he was exceptional at in terms of work and creating art. It would have snuffed the endorphin high he talked about. It would have substantially curtailed his ability to put food on the table for his family and so many others he helped through his philanthropy that was so important to this highly empathetic soul.

Tragically, in Robin's case, even if he got diagnosed and good medication prescribed for this condition, and I suspect he did, he couldn't take the conventional nor probably any treatment for the mania or it would have ended or significantly compromised who he was in so many ways. Robin didn't have the choice most folks with this condition do.

Untreated hypomaniacs I've known are "up" a high percentage of the time. Eventually, like the laws of gravity, what goes up must come down. They don't sleep much while they're manic. Eventually, that catches up to them and they get tuckered out. Fatigue kicks in and the high speed mood swings to a real low, depressed mood while they physically recover their energy and heal up.

They can also suffer significant guilt or embarrassment for their out of control behavior due to things like promiscuity or hurt feelings or squandering money.

It appears that Robin lived this way for 40 or more years. Untreated, he would have hit some real lows along the way and it appears, one bad and low depression kicked in that he couldn't seem to get out of and it effectively, having happened many times before and worn him down over the 40 years, drove him to take his own life.

I could be wrong with the above but I suspect I'm probably not all that far off.

[chervilant]

82. I didn't understand depression

until I suffered an acute depression following my divorce from a man who spent 18 months convincing me we should be married, and then 14 months later was having an affair with a friend of mine from our church. The pain, the ennui, the hopelessness--it's incredibly difficult and scary. Countless times, I contemplated how to end the pain by ending my life.

The feelings I had--and couldn't elude at all--stood in sharp contrast to my 'normal' reality. Before Steve, I would typically wake up with enthusiasm and joie de vivre, filling my days with fun, social events. Thus, waking up wondering "why am I still alive?!?" really threw me. Wanting to die was a bottomless abyss I looked into too many times. My wonderful dog, Bear Doggies, pulled me back from that abyss. He would get his favorite squeaky toy and press it against my thigh (SQUEAKY! SQUEAKY! SQUEAKY!) until I would regain awareness, dry the tears off my face, and go play with him. He quite literally saved my life!

I noticed, too, that friends and family responded in kind to my self-isolation. The more I avoided social interaction, the less social were my friends and family. The less I answered phone calls, the less phone calls I received. No one came to see me, no one checked in on me. Ironically, the very isolation I succored was mirrored in the responses of those who 'loved' me--and this perpetuated my feelings of worthlessness and depression.

I'm better now. I am living in a beautiful, bucolic setting, and pursuing the art I've wanted to create my whole life. I'm learning woodcarving and blacksmithing--such incredible crafts! I have wonderful, funny, supportive, creative people in my life, and they are so very helpful! When my new friends try to 'set me up' to 'meet someone,' I simply tell them, "My picker is broken."

But, I'm not broken. And, I'm able to use what I've learned in my advocacy for survivors.

Thank you for your post, and for your thoughtful response.

[cleduc]

85. That was a very moving reply

I'm so sorry for what you went through in your divorce but glad that you have prevailed, moved on and found good supportive friends.

Your reply proved beyond all doubt that you are definitely not broken!

All the best

[TygrBright]

79. This is a beautiful letter, thank you for sharing it with us.

And of course, anything I post publicly on DU may be shared anywhere, with anyone.

I'll hold Susie (and you!) in the Light.

One resource that has helped me quite a lot is the material here: http://stepsforliving.weebly.com/

appreciatively,
Bright

[chervilant]

83. I am in awe of your OP, TygrBright!

I wish I could sneak it into my niece's life, but she is no longer communicating with me. Would you mind if I post it on FB? I think she is keeping track of me through FB. (I know you said I could post anywhere, but FB tends to be misused and maligned...)

Thank you EVER SO MUCH for this amazing OP!!!

[TygrBright]

84. You are welcome to post it on FB.

Thanks again for the kind words.

I read what you wrote above on your own experience with depression and it touched me closely, too.

Because isolating is one of the things I do, and do it very well! Fortunately, I've built a pretty good support network who are more alert to that, and who help as much as I'll let them, when my depression is very bad.

As far as your niece is concerned, keep in mind that she, too, has a Power Greater, and that you are responsible only for the effort-- that is, the loving communications you offer. The outcome-- how she responds and what she does with it-- is still up to her.

respectfully,
Bright

[IrishAyes]

61. One of the best pieces I've ever read on the subject. Congratulations.

You're in my prayers. I firmly believe that every person on earth winds up at that crossroads at least once in life, from one devastating shock or another. Nobody has any business judging another, because there's no way we can predict ahead how it will turn out for us when it comes. Anybody who says they never sincerely WANTED to die is either 3 years old, or a liar. More than once I've stood on the edge of that dark cliff due to crushing events myself, and I cannot say I personally had anything to do with still being here today.

[dvg]

62. This is so true

I have a daughter that is bipolar and has come close a couple of times. It is always in her mind to make things easier on those around her. She truly believes that it would be for the best to end all the suffering that she is inflicting on others. It has been six years since the last attempt and she is now in her mid to late 20's and enjoys life, but I can see that it is still there and I have great admiration for what she goes through everyday just to function. To those with suicidal ideation's they believe it is for the best and it is a selfless act that takes courage the opposite of what most would think.

[liberalmuse]

63. Beautiful. Thank you.

You're not alone, and you've very eloquently described so many people's struggles so perfectly. I need to read this, and am very grateful to you for posting.

[ReRe]

64. Thank you, Bright

For saying what needs to be heard. DU you.

[Live and Learn]

65. It is not selfish or cowardly. In fact, most of those calling

it cowardly, wouldn't have the guts to do it themselves. How can it be selfish when the person that does it doesn't feel they have anymore to give to anyone else?

It is simply a release of a deep pain. Since others can't feel your pain it is difficult for them to understand. What we need to do is to seek real methods to relieve such pain. The current ones do not work for everyone.

And thank you for the wonderful and honest post.

[LeftishBrit]

66. Wonderful post.

[CallMeKat]

67. Thank you for this.

Just...thank you.

I've been on the brink myself, more times than I care to admit, and you're exactly right: it's about ending pain that feels like it will never end, and sparing those around me from having to put up with my (insert jerkbrain horribleness here).

I've been lucky enough to be pulled back from that edge, but there have been times when I hated those people pulling me back. I hated them for not letting me go, for forcing me to keep slogging through the pain. Thankfully, they didn't let go. But it was so close...

My heart goes out to Mr. Williams' family and friends, but especially to people like you, TygrBright, for speaking up and reaching out.

[peace13]

69. Well put!

Thanks for this. Peace and love, Kim

[VA_Jill]

71. A very dear young friend

found her beloved uncle when he killed himself by blowing his brains out with a shotgun. She was 14 at the time, and a very young 14 at that. I don't think her parents handled it very well at the time, including making her go to the funeral (!) and not getting her therapy, but that's neither here nor there. When I met her almost 6 years later she was still suffering and she had some of the attitude she'd absorbed from the people in the small town where she lived, that her uncle was "selfish" and "cowardly" for not facing up to his problems. I tried to help her see that he had a sickness and was so deep in his own pain that he could not see any other way out; he could not see how any actions he took would affect others. I think I was successful, because she was eventually able to understand her own pain and forgive herself for hating him all those years. It took a long time and a lot of long talks, though. One day I hope she'll have some strength and experience and maybe a little wisdom to pass on.

[Orsino]

73. As long as their have been people, people have been tortured to death.

It is not shameful, or should not be, to be in too much pain to bear, though the uninvolved seem to care mostly about fixing blame. Victims of depression suffer, some much more than others.

I will not take seriously anyone who dares to trivialize a sufferer's coping mechanisms as "cowardly" or "selfish."

[BobbyBoring]

74. Thank you TygrBright!

That really answered a few questions I've had for quite some time. I appreciate the honest and heartfelt explanation.
Peace!

[deafskeptic]

75. I had someone tell me that depressed people are selfish and self absorbed.

This was when I was undergoing severe depression and this was my own counselor who told me that.

[TygrBright]

80. Yep. Drowning people have very little interest in others' problems, too. n/t

[hibbing]

77. very powerful

Thank you for posting this, a will read it over a few more times.

Peace

[passiveporcupine]

78. Thank you Tyger

that was beautifully written. You speak for so many of us.