The Blue Devil in Miss Belle Knox: Meet Duke Porn Star Miriam Weeks

[redqueen]

...

None of which, she maintains, has anything to do with why she entered the sex trade. When Weeks started at Duke, her father was working in a private practice. Then he got called by the Army Reserves to go to Afghanistan for less than half of his previous salary. Weeks says she begged Duke to revisit her financial-aid package, but "they didn't care." Staring at a monthly bill for $4,300 that they couldn't pay, her parents suggested she take out private loans, despite the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt she'd rack up by the time she graduated. In high school, Weeks had worked as a waitress – a job she has said she found more degrading than the sex trade – so she knew how impossible it would be for someone without a car or a college degree to make anywhere near enough to cover her tuition. In desperation, Weeks joked to her roommate, "Oh, screw this, I'll just be a porn star."

And then, having said the words, she started to actually consider it. "I Googled 'how to be a porn star,' and all of these agencies popped up. And then there's this website called SexyJobs.com. It's like the Monster.com of porn." Weeks took a few naked selfies and submitted them, along with her height (five feet four), weight (95 pounds) and a short description ("'I'm a college girl with a naughty side' or something like that&quot . Within days, she got a call from a company called Facial Abuse that offered to fly her to New York for her first shoot, at a rate of $1,200 per scene. The night before leaving, Weeks says, "I was horny. I remember thinking, 'This is gonna be really hot.'"


While Weeks maintains that everything that happened at the shoot was consensual, it was not the best experience. "They try to figure out what makes you tick and fuck with you. I remember getting naked, and the guy said, 'You have cuts on your legs. You're a cutter.' He could tell I had written the word 'fat' in my thigh, so he started calling me fat." Once they called "action," she was pushed to the ground and slapped. "And I said, 'Stop, stop, stop. No, no.' And then they stopped, and they were like, 'We have to keep going.'

"And I was like, 'Just please don't hit me so hard.' But it went on like that, me getting hit, pushed, spit on. I was being told I was fat, that I was a terrible feminist, was going to fail all my classes, was stupid, dumb, a slut. But I got through it. You know how you kind of zone out sometimes? I just disassociated." It wasn't until she got back to Duke that she felt the weight of it all. "I remember just being a wreck, like, 'Oh, my God, what have I done? This is the most embarrassing thing ever. What if somebody finds it?'"

...

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-blue-devil-in-miss-belle-knox-meet-duke-porn-star-miriam-weeks-20140423#ixzz327lW3iwU

People keep throwing our the canard about banning porn, but most anti-porn feminists don't talk about the ubiquitous misogyny, assault, and rape in this industry with the goal of banning it. Most just want to make people aware. There are some whose desired outcome is that maybe after being made aware of the methods that most in this incredibly profitable industry use to make all that cash - and after considering what the trade off is for - that most will reconsider using porn to facilitate their precious wank sessions. No, not all companies are this bad, but that's beside the point. Those who defend the industry insist there's "nothing wrong" but anyone who has looked an inch below the glossy, overhyped surface knows better.

It is important to note her comment that waitressing is more degrading than porn. Reading about the experience above, it is impossible to interpret that claim as anything more than a defense mechanism. Many women who have been in the industry discuss this common method of dealing with repeatedly exposing oneself to traumatizing situations.

I fully expect the usual avalanche of childish responses. I wonder if they convey to other readers what they do to me.

[msanthrope]

1. Another porn thread about this woman? nt

[redqueen]

2. Well spotted!

Good job!

[msanthrope]

8. Seriously, redqueen....this particular excerpt

has been posted here a few times. What are you trying to accomplish by reposting it?

As a feminist, I'm pretty tired of all the porn threads. You'd think we could maybe focus on our brains, rather than our vaginas?

[redqueen]

11. As a feminist, I'm tired of the widespread abuse, assault, and rape in porn being ignored,

whitewashed, minimized, and dismissed.

This isn't about "our vaginas"

It's about a multi-billion dollar industry that is poisoning our culture by sexualizing misogyny, inequality, violence, and racism too.

[msanthrope]

15. No...this is a story about an overprivileged, white, Libertarian twit

and her first-word problem of how to pay for Duke.

And you've posted a story about her that details her search for panties to sell at a porn convention.

What does this tell me about feminism? Absolutely nothing of worth or merit. She's an adult...and she will have to live with the consequences of her decisions.

[redqueen]

17. It is a story of a woman who was beaten and spat on at a job. And it was filmed

for people to get off on.

Rich white libertarians think that those things are just fine. As a feminist, I don't.

If it bothers you to see the issue discussed, hide the thread.

[Yavin4]

51. "It is a story of a woman who was beaten and spat on at a job." Yet, she stayed in the profession.

She could have left that shoot, but she didn't. She could have stopped making movies, but she didn't. She could have not porn at all, but she didn't.

She made her choice. It would be misogynist to take away her choices.

[redqueen]

54. Yes, it is misogynistic to criticize an industry in which women are beaten and spat on

despite them making it clear she did not want them to hit her so hard.

At least that.

Yes, she agreed to let them continue to insult her. Berate her. Spit on her. Just not hit her so hard.

But that was too much to expect apparently. And here you are defending the guys who did it. Because after all it was her choice to stop objecting to bring hit so hard.

And I didn't say she isn't free to do it. I'm just posting it so people know how far too many of these women are treated.

Yep, I'm a misogynist. You've got me pegged.

[Yavin4]

55. Do you understand fetishes?

There are people, male and female, that engage in that type of fetish as a release. I don't like it. I don't watch it. It does not appeal to me, but it does appeal to some, men and women.

[redqueen]

57. Do you understand the word 'no'?

She said no. They didn't listen.

Would you like to be the second to go on record here and explain to me how that isn't sexual assault?

[msanthrope]

66. So your issue is with workplace safety? Ms. Knox isn't complaining to OSHA, and

I don't see why she shouldn't face the consequences of her own decisions.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for her?

[stevenleser]

71. I wonder how she would feel about RQ's characterization of her statements?

Maybe I will find out.

[redqueen]

73. Why don't you find out why all those other ex porn performers say it about their statements?

Tell me that.

Why don't you look into those women's stories?

[stevenleser]

76. For starters, each interview takes a lot of work just to set up. But, we'll see.

I'm first interested in what this person whose statements you have characterized a certain way, thinks about the things you have said. Not because it's you and I think you are wrong, but because your opinion is probably shared by a sizeable amount of people and I think it is newsworthy to have them addressed by the person who lived through it.

On edit: But certainly, if you are interested in doing the work to set the interviews up, I'm interested in talking to current and former performers on both sides of the issue.

[redqueen]

77. My opinion is by far the minority opinion. You would rather interview the pro-industry woman

than focus on the ones who speak out against the abuses in the industry. The ones so many find so convenient to ignore.

A very popular position, yours.

[stevenleser]

78. Did you even read what I wrote? nt

[redqueen]

80. Of course. Have fun backing the multi-billion dollar industry by focusing on its supporters.

You have plenty of company there.

[stevenleser]

81. I encourage everyone to read my post #76 and then RQ's responses. nt

[msanthrope]

84. Why aren't you taking Steve up on his offer? nt

[redqueen]

86. He tried to get me PPRd for saying that people were posting MRA talking points on DU.

He can make his own damn appointments or find someone he didn't try to have PPRd to do his work.

[msanthrope]

89. Cite? nt

[redqueen]

92. It was in Meta, which is gone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers. nt

[msanthrope]

96. He's right--serious accusations against DUers without proof should be PPR worthy. nt

[redqueen]

101. You need proof that MRA talking points are posted here?

Really?

[msanthrope]

108. Yes. I do it all the time when someone posts a RW meme....if you accuse someone, cite

where you found the talking point. An MRA website? Fine, cite it. An MRA writer? Cite it.

You cannot possibly think that merely pointing at something and saying it is an MRA talking point is a credible argument.

[stevenleser]

111. Exactly. Just like accusing someone of using KKK or Nazi/stormfront talking points.

Its an extremely ugly and inflammatory accusation and should require proof or the accuser should be sanctioned.

Certainly, accusing someone of that in the real world can open you up to litigation.

[opiate69]

112. Sadly, her prodigious posting history suggests she indeed does believe that...

[stevenleser]

93. Oh she doesn't have to cite, I think willy-nilly accusations of DUers being in hate groups without

firm evidence that they are is PPR worthy and I said that to her flat-out and that she deserved PPR for doing so..

That doesnt excuse her making the accusation that I didn't want to interview folks on her side of the issue when I made the offer to do exactly that.

[redqueen]

97. Did you also contact the admins about your opinion that I should be PPRd for saying

that people were posting MRA talking points on DU?

[stevenleser]

104. Several times, not mentioning you specifically. nt

[redqueen]

107. And are you still confused at all about whether those kinds of talking points are posted here? nt

[stevenleser]

110. Not confused. It's rare. But your accusations of people using them is not rare. nt

[redqueen]

115. It's rare now.

Since a few people have been PPRd - several who notably frequented a particular group here - that noise has died down a good bit. No thanks to those who defended their right to post that shit here.

In this thread there are people claiming that she had no right to expect that her objections to being hit so hard would be heeded. Got anything to say about that or is that less compelling than pretending that I'm the reason you choose to interview pro-industry performers as opposed to those whose stories aren't so popular with your audience?

[stevenleser]

123. It has always been rare to have MRA talking points here. Here are MRA Talking points

From http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

Note to alerters/jurors please do not alert/vote to hide, these are not my viewpoints, they are examples of horrific viewpoints from MRA websites that the Southern Poverty Law Center posted on their page as evidence of how hateful these groups have become:

"“Just as the Nazis had to create a Jewish conspiracy as a way to justify mass slaughter,” one post declares, “so feminists have to create patriarchy as a way to justify mass slaughter of innocent unborn, and the destruction of men and masculinity."

“Having their cake,” asserts that “Western women … act, dress, and look like hairy fat pigs, but get angry when they can’t find a man … act like bitches, but expect men to respect them … don’t know what the hell they want, but seek power over men and over everything.”

"American women (are) “generally immature, selfish, extremely arrogant and self-centered, mentally unstable, irresponsible and highly unchaste. The behavior of most American women is utterly disgusting.” ... “I think we should export all american (sic) bitches to other countries and take in women from other places. … Have you noticed how fat these sluts get AT AN EARLY AGE… . (I)f you were allowed to beat your wife we wouldn’t be dealing with this crap.”"

“Boys,” a January posting urges Marky Mark’s readers, “don’t get involved in American women; they’re sluts, skanks, and disease ridden whores.”

"there is “undeniable proof” of an international feminist conspiracy involving the United Nations, the Obama Administration and others, aimed at demonizing men."

"Roosh Vörek is a Maryland-raised PUA (“pick up artist”) whose specialty is sex with foreign women; his blog is a sales vehicle for his books like Bang: The Pick Up Bible and Bang Iceland: How to Sleep With Icelandic Women in Iceland, which one Icelandic feminist group described as a “rape guide.” Vörek likes to talk about his many “notches” (seductions) and such things as “American cunts who I want to hate fuck.” He adds: “I’ll be the first to admit that many of my bangs in the United States were hate fucks. The masculine attitude and lack of care these women put into their style or hair irritated me, so I made it a point to fuck them and never call again.”"

"“AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.”"

Now, those are genuine MRA talking points. And no, I do not see them or statements that resemble them on DU almost ever.

Your accusations of MRA talking points vastly outnumber their incidence on DU.

[seaglass]

161. What do you want a membership card Steven? Do you think you know more than women who are the

targets of these types? Why don't you look up galileoreloaded's posts on DU and then look up the continuing vile crap he posts on Discussionist under galileosghost?

The women who paid attention here knew what galileoreloaded was long before EarlG finally banned him as a misogynist. You have ZERO understanding or empathy for women who put up with this vile crap and continually dismiss the women who recognize it. No clue why you expect people whom you continually dismiss to help you or believe that you could conduct a fair and unbiased interview.

[stevenleser]

162. Don't give me that, that is a copout. It's not hard. When we talk about hate groups like

MRA or KKK or NeoNazis/Stormfront, we're not talking random insensitive statements.

As I posted in #123, MRA talking points are beyond an insensitive comment or moderately sexist. They are vile and ugly through and through.

To use anti-semitism as an example, I think that various posts regarding the whole Gaza issue were moderately antisemitic. But they do not qualify the posters as NeoNazis and would not excuse people of accusing posters of those statements to be NeoNazi talking points. NeoNazi talking points are very different.

I accused a poster the other day of making a sexist comment when he made a negative statement about Hillary involving "pantsuits". That was as far as I am concerned, an obviously sexist comment. That doesn't make it an MRA talking point and it wasn't an MRA talking point.

Accusations of fellow DUers being in hate groups is not something that should be carelessly thrown around.

You mentioned galileoreloaded. I would like to see that persons individual posts. I will bet they were in fact sexist. That person may in fact be somewhat misogynistic. That does not make him an MRA and it does not necessarily follow AT ALL that the person was spouting MRA talking points.

On Edit: Take a look once again at my #123. Look at what REAL MRA talking points are. Then show me posts here on DU that resemble those.

[seaglass]

163. How interesting, you dismiss what I say with zero evidence. You had the tools at your fingertips,

the search functions at both DU and DI, and couldn't even be bothered doing any legwork because you are so convinced you are right.

Dismissed.

[stevenleser]

164. If he is your source that you are citing, you provide the link. Lets see it. nt

[stevenleser]

166. Half an hour later and you still couldn't provide links. I scanned some of his posts. No, he

doesn't seem like an MRA. He seems like an insensitive jerk in general to everyone about just about everything, but no, not an MRA.

Here is just a little about what I found out about him:

1. He thought Trayvon deserved to be killed and that we were all leaping to conclusions about Zimmerman

2. He believes just about everything bad said about Obama.

3. He made a number of sexist or at least insensitive statements.

[msanthrope]

82. Definitely....maybe you should have redqueen on your show with Ms. Knox. Or she can certainly call

in. I know I have!

[stevenleser]

83. See my #76 above. RQ seems to want to namecall and criticize rather than do any work at all.

Even to find folks for me to interview on her side of the issue.

Check out her responses to that post.

[msanthrope]

87. Unsurprising. nt

[stevenleser]

91. And now check out the excuse she is trying to use. But she could accuse me of not wanting to

interview folks on her side of the issue when I as much as engraved the invitation to do so.

[msanthrope]

94. I think there's a bit of a double standard here. nt

[LanternWaste]

75. We should never feel sorry for anyone compelled into a decision via the righteous...

We should never feel sorry for anyone compelled into a decision via the righteous American mechanism of economic coercion. Underpaid fast food workers, predatory payday lenders, even (dare we bring up the Holy of Holies) Enron are all paragons of society who would never dream of exploiting someone without complete and full understanding of all participants.

God bless America, God bless the free market, and God bless your little heart...



"Are we supposed to feel sorry for her?"
Just humans... everyone else can tell her to face the consequences of her own decisions.

[msanthrope]

79. Economic coercion? Yes--she had no choice but to do porn in order to pay for Duke. No other

options available to her. No other resources, no other family members, no ability to get a student loan.....nothing.

Yes---she's JUST like an exploited fast-food worker.

[redqueen]

116. Most women in porn aren't doing it to pay for Ivy League educations. But you know that. nt

[msanthrope]

118. We are talking about Ms. Knox. Not other women in porn. I mean, if you wanted to talk about

other women in porn, why didn't your OP reflect that?

[redqueen]

119. You mean like pretty much everything I wrote after the excerpt?

Did you even read the OP?

[msanthrope]

121. You mean where you write about Ms. Knox and waitressing? nt

[deaniac21]

129. Methinks...

You get it.

[Squinch]

3. You will get those responses, but this is a good OP. Even that .00001% of the girls who are

actually "working their way through college" are abused in the porn industry. And given that she did have other options (she could have dropped out of school, and would not have starved) hers is one of the best possible experiences for a woman in the porn industry, even though her experience was abusive and traumatic.

Though I feel certain that none of those who are standing up for "women's rights" will be considering that the next time they use a film or photo of an abused or traumatized woman.

[redqueen]

5. And you have seen how many women who worked in porn have shared examples

of this kind of treatment.

Documentary filmmakers have seen it first hand.

[redqueen]

7. I consider widespread workplace abuse - including assault and rape - to be a political issue.

Not to mention misogyny.

[Calista241]

6. Eh whatever.

Not like this is going to follow her around for the rest of her life.

Can you imagine the rumors at any place she works in the future?

"That girl in cubicle 14 used to do porn." But hey, if that's what she wants to do, who am I to say shit about it.

[RiffRandell]

138. You just did. nt

[Calista241]

149. Just because I don't approve or disapprove doesn't mean she won't face societal consequences.

Who knows, she just may like doing porn.

[Yavin4]

9. How do you know?

You posted:

It is important to note her comment that waitressing is more degrading than porn. Reading about the experience above, it is impossible to interpret that claim as anything more than a defense mechanism.

How do you know that her statement is a "defense mechanism"? I've seen waitresses and secretaries be openly degraded and humiliated, and I've also seen rude customers at a strip club get tossed out on their asses.

So, how do you know that her statement is a "defense mechanism"?

Also, from the article that you posted:

Weeks is actually entering a discussion that's been around for decades. "I still get people telling me we're all brainwashed, and we choose to do this because the patriarchy blah-blah-blah-blah," says Nina Hartley, the godmother of sex-positive feminist porn. If Weeks becomes a lawyer, Hartley tells me, "she'll have to be twice as good for people to get over her past." Sasha Grey, Weeks' porn-star idol, rose to prominence because of both the intensity of her scenes and the intelligence with which she supported her right to film them. "Just because I enjoy sex that's considered more perverse than perhaps my mother might be into doesn't mean I am anti-feminist," she says. "I think it's great that Belle wants to balance sex and education. I just wish it wasn't presented as something scandalous."

[redqueen]

10. Because she isn't the only one who has exposed the way this industry operates.

If, as you seem to think, she actually considers being punched and spat on less degrading than waitressing, that still leaves all the other abuses and assaults and rapes dealt out to so many other girls and women being chewed up by the industry. The fact remains that so many of them have come forward and shared their experiences, and explained how they lied to themselves and others just so they could keep going.

This isn't just about her, or what she considers degrading.

[Yavin4]

30. Let me get this straight...

So, women "lied to themselves and others just so they could keep going"? Are you then saying that women are unabele to make choices on their own?

[redqueen]

31. Not at all. Maybe you should read my comments in the OP again. nt

[opiate69]

13. How does she know?

That, and, luminaries from the religious right such as Judith Reisman and Shelley Lubben sez so!

[joeybee12]

12. What's up with the cutting?

That can't be good.

[hedgehog]

14. If her measurements are honest - at 5'4", 95 pounds, she has a BMI

of 16.31 - Underweight. Her lowest recommended weight? About 110.

[joeybee12]

16. Yeesh, and she probably looks all those 95 pounds in the mirror

and thinks she's still too fat...she needs help, and quite frankly a career where appearance is everything, she's in trouble.

[LittleBlue]

18. If not porn, what would you suggest to fuel wank sessions?

There are some whose desired outcome is that maybe after being made aware of the methods that most in this incredibly profitable industry use to make all that cash - and after considering what the trade off is for - that most will reconsider using porn to facilitate their precious wank sessions.

Unless one already has a live-in partner, the alternative is casual sex with strangers. Which is probably not very safe. Especially for teens.

What would be a practical alternative to pornography?

[redqueen]

19. There is erotica in which oppression and dehumanization is not sexualized.

If people are really that unable to use their imaginations, there are other options besides supporting an industry which sexualizes misogyny, violence, racism, etc.

[LittleBlue]

20. That is still porn

It doesn't suddenly not become porn just because the two people in the video are pretending to have a relationship. Or pretending to enjoy it.

And since most porn is got for free at free sites, will it make a difference whether people choose violent, hardcore porn or so-called erotica? For instance, whether Pornhub runs a banner ad in a hardcore or erotica, doesn't the ad money still go to the same place?

[redqueen]

21. Dude, go find someone else to play this game.

I made myself clear in the OP.

If you simply want to play 'gotcha!' or defend sexualizing violence I'm done.

[LittleBlue]

24. Then forget I said anything about violence

And just ponder why it would matter what kind of porn a person watches if they don't pay for it. It's not much different than pirating a TV show.

There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason here to watch one kind of free porn over another.

[freeplessinseattle]

43. Thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing this out!! n/t

[msanthrope]

147. So porn is not okay but erotica is? Can you point to some acceptable erotica?

Seriously.....Al Goldstein, publisher of Screw is famous for this quote on the difference between porn and erotica......

"The feminists say they are anti-porn, pro-erotica, but they offer nothing in illustration of the latter. I wish they would offer up some of their erotica so I can jerk off to it. But the truth is, it's all semantics; if you like it, it's pornography, but if they like it, it's erotica."

Seriously...can you offer up some acceptable erotica???? As a female and a feminist, I want to know what's allowable....

[conservaphobe]

27. I'm just going to keep wanking it.

To whatever video that tickles my fancy without taking into consideration how it arrived on my screen.

The same way I eat whatever food I want without taking into consideration how it arrived on my plate.

I have no room in my life for sanctimony.

[Scout]

42. oh my god

'cuz you know, people NEVER were able to masturbate before they had porn.

no imagination?

[LittleBlue]

99. Oh, they were

but it's much better with porn.

Hence porn's immense popularity.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. People used to have pointless arguments before the internet, too.

But technology has significantly enhanced and facilitated the process!

[Dorian Gray]

157. Thank god

for the internets and the significant enhancement!!! Now we can pointlessly argue forever.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. So your suggested solution to the "porn problem" is "stop looking at dirty pictures"?

Oh, why would anyone think there's an agenda, there?

[LeftyMom]

22. I find your dismissal of her lived experience disturbing and inconsistent with feminist scholarship.

That waitressing and other pink collar service jobs are degrading and harassment is endemic is hardly news, nor would it be disputed by you in any other context.

[redqueen]

25. Except I didn't say other jobs were 100% not degrading and harassment-free, did I? nt

[LeftyMom]

28. She's done both. She's comparing the two. She's qualified to do that.

You're dismissing her because her life experiences don't jibe with papers you've read. Behavior like yours is the entire reason that feminist scholarship exists as an academic pursuit, but you're so bound up in being right that you aren't living by your professed principles.

[redqueen]

34. No, this is not based on papers I've read.

Like I said, many other women have come forward to talk about how they were treated in this industry.

She might be one who insists to her dying days that being punched and spat on wasn't as degrading as waitressing. Or she might be one who eventually starts talking about those comments the same way so many other ex porn performers have. Only time will tell.

And in the meantime, if people are going to defend statements like "there's nothing wrong with porn", I will do my best to make sure they know how incorrect that statement is.

[Blue_Adept]

88. You also get, in many of the documentaries...

performers that make it clear that they just shouldn't have been in it to begin with. That it wasn't right for them, that it was a mistake or something else. I've watched a number of these documentaries over the years and it's certainly cherry picked to some degree with who they talk to, but often you see that a good number of those that leave and speak out against it tend to have either found religion or rediscovered it as well. Makes you wonder if there's a connection.

[redqueen]

95. Jenna Jameson has plenty of bad things to say about the industry

and she's no born again Christian. Whether you choose to dismiss her opinions as well, simply because you think she just never shoild have done it is up to you.

[Blue_Adept]

98. Where did I dismiss an opinion?

I just want to know so I can make sure I don't do it again because that was not my intent.

[redqueen]

100. Here.

often you see that a good number of those that leave and speak out against it tend to have either found religion or rediscovered it as well. Makes you wonder if there's a connection

It seems that you're saying here, once the ex performers profess a belief in a higher power, that makes all their claims about this industry suspect, so we can just ignore those.

Also, one documentary didnt pick anyone. They just followed a woman from the UK here who was looking to be a porn star. They ended up almost witnessing a rape.

[Blue_Adept]

102. I think you inferred that then. Because that's not what I said at all.

Pointing out that a lot of the performers that leave and have significant complaints and are vocal about it are heavily involved in religion is a worthy discussion point. It's not dismissing anyone in the slightest.

[redqueen]

103. What is the point of mentioning their religion?

Does it mean they're lying?

Does it mean if they weren't religious they'd find the abusive treatment acceptable?

[Yavin4]

32. I witnessed a legal secretary be called the C-word in an office full of people by a partner

Nothing happened to him.

[redqueen]

26. Many people are. But just like many other types of addicts, they are in denial.

Seeing how long one can go without is a good way to guage addiction.

But that's not the topic of this thread

[snooper2]

29. addiction sucks ass, I hate to admit it finally, but I'm addicted to twerking, can there be help?

I found this

[redqueen]

35. When she says "no", and they keep going, what do you call that? nt

[redqueen]

38. That's not what happened. They outnumbered her.

They got their shot.

She got a one-time paycheck. They're probably still cashing in on her filmed sexual assault.

[The2ndWheel]

47. The word abuse is in their title

Don't go there to get a paycheck.

[redqueen]

50. I fucking knew it.

Nothing more to say to you.

[The2ndWheel]

63. That's what she could've said to "Facial Abuse" before ever going there

[redqueen]

69. So you think women in porn agree to have their objections ignored? nt

[The2ndWheel]

85. If they go to a company called Facial Abuse, probably

Other companies with better sounding names may not be any better in taking objections to this or that act into account, I don't know. If they're clearly advertising the word abuse though, then that might be a hint.

If there's a sign somewhere that says "Danger: Do not walk in this area", and someone walks into that area anyway, after seeing the sign, and they get hurt in some way, are people supposed to feel sorry for that person?

[redqueen]

90. IYO, women in porn "probably" agree to have their objections ignored. Got it. nt

[The2ndWheel]

105. You clearly know I didn't say that

Don't work for a company with the word abuse in their company name. If you do, it's on you.

[redqueen]

106. So only the women in certain fetish porn should expect to have their objections igored? nt

[alp227]

137. So why should such companies exist in the first place?

I keep hearing the argument "don't work there in the first place" to excuse companies with shoddy practices, putting the burden on the employee not employer to make good decisions. What happened to defending workers' rights?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

165. good questions ... and ...

[LostInAnomie]

39. "A woman is free to make her own choices and do whatever she wants with her body...

... as long as I approve." - Misogynists and Anti-Porn Feminists

[redqueen]

40. Do me a favor and quote where I said she isn't free to do it.

I expected the thoughtless, childish quips. Well done providing one of the dumbest.

[LostInAnomie]

70. To be fair, it's brighter than cherry picking an article for inflammatory quotes.

Last edited Wed Aug 13, 2014, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

You don't say that she isn't free to do it. You just imply that this duke student isnt bright enough to make the correct decisions. Because if she were, she surely wouldn't find porn less exploitative than waitressing. That has the be a "defense mechanism", right?

[redqueen]

74. No, I didn't imply that. You inferred it because it is preferable to acknowedging her assault.

The assault which calls into question how many other, even less privileged women had their "no" ignored.

[LostInAnomie]

130. Uhhh... no. You literally said that her feeling less exploited...

... is impossible to see as anything as a defense mechanism. This woman has worked in over 30 porn films amd is bright enough to double major at Duke. She should know tje level of her exploitation if there is any. In your OP, you literally tried to substitute your own biased judgement for her own. It's pathetic that to would use your own biases to try to infatilize another woman.

[alp227]

59. The problem is, how many women who get into porn make well-informed decisions?

And criticizing something doesn't mean not allowing it. I'm tired of seeing that.

[LostInAnomie]

68. Let me ask you a question, in your opinion, is it possible for a woman to ever be well-informed...

... enough to get into porn? Seriously, is it possible for a woman to be educated, self aware, secure in her own sexuality, etc., that you would qualify her decision to get into porn as well-informed? Or, do you feel that on some level there is always coercion?

[kcr]

113. What does it matter if they were coerced in the first place?

She was asaulted. That's wrong whether she fully gave informed consent or not. And that's not unheard of. I also think the the way those who criticize the industry are shamed and shouted down makes it harder for women to become informed.

[redqueen]

117. A few here have implied or said outright that she had no right to expect

that her objection to being hit so hard would be heeded.

[kcr]

120. It's unbelievable

But you should be banned if you accusing anyone of being an MRA troll, of course

[redqueen]

125. If only it were. People's priorities are so revealing, aren't they? nt

[LostInAnomie]

128. Because, that is not what I asked

Is it possible for a woman to ever be well-informed enough to decide to get into porn. It's not that hard of a question.

[kcr]

139. And the question doesn't matter.

Informed consent does not mean open season on human rights.

[LostInAnomie]

146. The question does matter. I absolutely speaks to the agency of all women...

... and their ability to make their own decisions about their sexuality. Is it possible for a woman to make a well informed decision to get into porn?

[kcr]

150. Agency does not mean freedom from criticism of whatever thing a person chooses to participate in

By your logic we should never criticize sweat shops or black market organ traffickers because there are willing participants.

[LostInAnomie]

151. Sweat shops are explicitly coercive. Black market organ trafficking is illegal. Porn is neither.

So the question stands, is it possible for a woman make a well-informed decision to get into porn? Yes, or no?

[kcr]

152. So you can't criticize things that are legal?

No, the question doesn't stand. The answer is it doesn't matter. There is coercion in porn, too. The difference is in degree, not kind.

[LostInAnomie]

155. Sad. It is a simple question with a simple answer.

Either you respect women enough to believe that they can make informed decisions about their own sexuality or you don't. If you do, then you should respect their choices because it is their body and none of your business. If you don't, you should ask yourself why your opinion is more valid than the thousands of women that go willingly into porn each year.

So, I will ask the question again: Is it possible for a woman to make a well-informed decision to go into porn?

I'm guessing that you don't but are afraid to admit it.

[kcr]

160. And I'll answer your question again

It doesn't matter. I'll ask you a question. How is it disrespecting women to point out the problems in the porn industry?

[alp227]

136. unfortunately there's mostly coercion to get into porn

whether peer pressure or economic desperation. I wish I lived in a world where everyone made well-informed decisions whether in voting or diet etc.

[LostInAnomie]

145. Again, that is not what I asked. Can a woman make a well-informed decision...

... to become a porn actress?

[alp227]

148. OK, I should've provided a straight answer. I'd say yes,

but it'd be VERY hard...nothing in life comes easy.

[LostInAnomie]

153. Good.

So, then what we are brought to is the question: How informed does a person have to be to be informed enough? Personally, I would say that there is no concrete answer for that, because it would vary from individual to individual. Some extremely sexually adventurous people would only need to know what they are going to be doing and what they will get paid. Others would need much more information before they would feel comfortable. Either way though, we have to respect their decision because they are adults and they are entitled to do with their bodies as they see fit.

The problem I have with threads like these is that they are rife with latent "slut shaming". Some women disrespect what other women do with their bodies so much that they can't accept that it is done under free will. They find the way these women choose to express their sexuality so degrading and demeaning that they have to believe it is coerced (even if they have to invent the coercion). Just look at the OP. Belle Knox says in the article that she enjoys working in porn, she is consensually taking part in every scene, and she finds the work to be less exploitative than waitressing. Even with that, the OP implies Belle Knox is hiding behind a defense mechanism to deal with her exploitation and that she was raped. It's disgusting that a woman can disrespect Belle Knox so much that she doesn't trust her own ability to judge if she was raped or not. That's what flies as feminism on here sometimes though.

[Yavin4]

41. You left out the portion of the article where she was flown to L.A.

paid $7,000 for a shoot and had a better experience.

[redqueen]

44. RTFOP

No, not all companies are this bad, but that's beside the point. Those who defend the industry insist there's "nothing wrong" but anyone who has looked an inch below the glossy, overhyped surface knows better.

There is a four-paragraph limit.

Do you think that in an OP meant to counter the statement that "there is nothing wrong with porn", I should waste one of those to the two slices of edible pizza*?

Of course you do.

I'm pretty tired of any feminist critique of porn, in order for it to be seen as valid, the author is expected to like pornography and heartily endorse it in a disclaimer. The happy, fun, consent-filled, queer and woman-friendly stuff we see on the internet is a rarity compared to the hateful (not a strong enough word) disgusting and degrading reality that is the whole picture. Say you have a pizza, and 14 out of 16 slices are covered in broken glass and dog shit, but two slices are cheesy and perfectly delicious. If I'm reviewing it, should I have to make some statement about how great those pieces fit for human consumption were? Should I support Pope Benedicto's Dog Shit N Broken Glass Pizza Parlour because they manage to make two edible slices of pizza per pie? It not only distorts the reality of the situation, but also seriously diminishes the pain and suffering of the vast majority of human beings who've actually been through it (eaten pizza/been involved in the pornography industry.)

[Yavin4]

48. As An African American, I see other African Americans do things that I don't like, but...

I don't use DU to call them out or bring shame or anything else. They're free to do what they want. For example, if they want to do an entire video using the N-word, then so be it. The price to pay in a free society is that we have to live with choices of others that make us uncomfortable.

Belle Knox wanted to be a porn star, and now she is. She is making money and getting national acclaim for it. And, she seems to be enjoying her choice. Whether you, or anyone else, is unhappy about it is completely besides the point.

[redqueen]

52. You must be actively working to miss the point. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

45. And yet your other thread calls for criminalizing a similar sex trade because of misogyny,

assault and rape. Why would you seek to ban one but not the other- would it not be more consistent to be calling for the criminalization of all porn consumers, or alternately regulation and "raising awareness" in prostitution?

Why the dismissiveness of this woman's experience with waitressing, and the armchair diagnosis of PTSD denial? It's perfectly possible to interpret in the exact sense she said it- that the low wages and overwork of waitressing are indeed more degrading than sex work. I've said it a few times myself. Why invalidate the experience of other women?

[redqueen]

46. No, not criminalizing a similar "sex trade", criminalizing the buying of sex.

It's called the Nordic model and it isn't solely my idea. Nor is it new.

The rest of your post I addressed elsewhere.

[LadyHawkAZ]

64. So why not criminalize the buying of porn?

Why the inconsistency?

No, you didn't address the rest of the post, you just insisted that you hadn't said waitressing was harassment-free, which did not explain why you dismissed her statement as untrue and delusional. I'd like to hear why you know better than she does what her experiences were like.

[redqueen]

67. "untrue and delusional" - nice spin

Apparently you didn't understand the rest of my post upthread.

Given your fox-news quality spin trying to make me sound like I'm accusing her of lying or being "delusional", I'm not so interested in spelling it out for you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

144. I didn't figure you'd be able to answer those questions

You never disappoint.

[Warren DeMontague]

167. There are a lot of those sorts of questions, that never seem to get answered.

Funny, that.

[NCTraveler]

49. Thanks for the op redqueen.

Sorry about some of the replies. Some make such little sense that it is clear they just want to attack you, information in the op be damned. I found the person who claims to be a feminist yet reads you op and thinks it is about a vagina to be very disturbing.

[redqueen]

56. My pleasure. I was serious about making this issue clear, whether people want to address it or not.

I expected the childish replies. Nothing new on that front.

[Yavin4]

53. Belle Knox's choices, as per the article

1. Chose to seek employment in the porn industry by answering an ad.
2. Chose to fly to NY and appear in a fetish video with knowledge of what would happen.
3. Chose to continue filming the video after she was uncomfortable.
4. Chose to continue working in the industry after her initial bad experience.
5. Chose to make money by making public appearances and giving mainstream media interviews.

Those are all her choices. Taking away her right to choose is by definition misogyny.

[redqueen]

58. You need to re-read the thread. You are still making straw man arguments

and studiously missing the point.

[Yavin4]

65. Then what is your point exactly? n/t

[redqueen]

109. Still waiting for the citation for your claim nt

[alp227]

60. Unless i'm wrong, she did all this to pay for her college bills.

You can't call a decision freedom when money is holding somebody hostage.

[Yavin4]

61. You're wrong. She's made enough to pay for college.

She continues to work because she enjoys it.

[redqueen]

62. Citation please.

As of June she said she was struggling to pay her tuition.

http://time.com/2873280/duke-porn-star-belle-knox-college-cost/

[Laelth]

142. That's an excellent article.

Thanks for the link.

-Laelth

[LostInAnomie]

72. You can't be serious.

She decides to get into porn and stay in it because she finds it less exploitative that working at her old job as a waitress, and you are saying she's being held hostage.

Maybe you should just let her decide what is best for her.

[alp227]

124. so i can understand her opinion if she felt she had bad experience as waitress.

but it's just my opinion her choice to work in porn is a questionable one. also that no one should have to rely on a dehumanizing profession just to pay the bills.

[Yavin4]

126. If I could make money in porn, then I would quit my job tomorrow.

There are several performers who make a lot of money doing porn without doing any violent or rough stuff.

[jeff47]

122. So everyone who isn't independently wealthy is a hostage?

'cause while my job has nothing to do with porn, there's no way in hell I'd work here if I didn't need the income.

[brooklynite]

127. ...and she's being held hostage if she gets a job at the College Bookstore?

[alp227]

131. for the most part, college bookstores don't mistreat workers as much as the porn industry. nt

[redqueen]

132. I think you missed the part where it was stipulated that she has no right to object to this abuse.

She asked for it, in other words.

[alp227]

133. Wai-wai-wai-wait. What the heck did I miss? nt

[redqueen]

134. Notice how no other pro-industry posters have shit to say about it, either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5379353

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5379822

[DemocratSinceBirth]

159. She could have went to a state college at a fraction of the cost.

How would this be different than some guy selling coke out of his Harvard dorm so he could use the extra cash to go there instead of,say, the University of Massachusetts?


I don't want to see anybody forced into jobs they don't want out of economic necessity. I'm all for giving them better opportunities. The problem is that some sex workers are very highly compensated and there aren't many jobs available to "average" folks where they would be making more money.

[dilby]

135. People make decisions every day that are either positive or negative.

She made the decision to go into porn and the decision to stay in it. She could have gone to a cheaper college, took out student loans or a multiple list of other options than porn. She seems content with her decision and who am I to judge how she decides to pay for her college.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. "precious wank sessions"

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm lucky if 5% of my "wank sessions" qualify as "precious"



Most are perfunctory, even dare I say businesslike. Such is reality, with a busy life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Why doesn't she just leave the industry?

There are some things I find so repugnant that I wouldn't even do them for money.

[LostInAnomie]

156. 2nd to last paragraph in the article...

... "This has been the craziest, most random year of my life," she says from behind the lectern. "But I'm so grateful to be here. I love being in porn."


Apparently, she likes it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

158. I would think that would settle it./nt

[Warren DeMontague]

168. That part, like, totally doesn't count.

She clearly doesn't know what she's saying, there.