Why have there been no fatwas against the slaughter of Yazidis especially since its being

[snagglepuss]

done in the name of Allah? The silence is deafening. Could it be that this sort of slaughter of non-believers is condoned? That forced conversion if condoned? THere is certianly not the world wide Muslims outrage with saw with a bunch of crappy cartoons.

[MADem]

1. Why are you saying there have been none, as though that is fact? Perhaps there have been.

We don't necessarily hear every proclamation from every masjid in the world.

Islam is a decentralized faith--they have no Pope-like figure. They have leaders in cities, in countries, and in regions, but it's not full-bore lockstep across the board the way other religions are.

[snagglepuss]

2. No one needs to go hunting for fatwas when Korans are burnt or other such things.

I've been googling for the last month looking for fatwas against ISIS.

[MADem]

9. Well, not every fatwa is posted to Google. That said, you need to Google harder!

Ayatullah al-Sistani issued his back in June. Apologies for the source, t'was the first one that popped up.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2014/08/muslim-leaders-join-in-condemnation-of-isis/

So far as I know, there has been no Fatwa against genocide. I found one Fatwa issued against ISIS by Ayatollah Ali Sistani, who is said to be Iraq’s most influential religious leader. Ayatollah Sistani called for a Fatwa urging Iraqis to fight against ISIS. However, I believe that this particular FATWA was aimed at defending Shia Muslims against Sunni Muslims. I do not think it addressed the slaughter of Christians and Yazidis.

Before the security collapse in Mosul, the conventional wisdom among Iraq experts was that Iraq had two options to guarantee security when faced with challenges above the capacity of the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF): the United States and Iran. Following this thinking, many of the critics of President Obama's reluctant show of support for Prime Minister Nuri Al-Maliki government argued that the slow U.S. response will force Al-Maliki to resort to Iran and might even open the door for Iranian military intervention. As the U.S. placed impossible political conditions before providing any help and Iran had elected to wait for a more suitable timing before offering assistance, the recur came in the most timely fashion from an unexpected source. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani issued a religious edict (fatwa) calling on Iraqi "Citizens to defend the country, its people, the honor of its citizens, and its sacred places."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/luay-al-khatteeb/what-do-you-know-about-si_b_5576244.html


More:


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12567-prominent-scholars-declare-isis-caliphate-null-and-void

The International Union of Muslim Scholars, led by influential Sunni cleric Dr Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, released a statement on Friday concerning the recent declaration of a "caliphate" by the Islamic State in Iraq and Levant (ISIS). The union said that the caliphate declaration is "null and void" and "lacks any realistic or legitimate standards." It warned of serious consequences of the declaration on both Sunni Muslims in Iraq and the revolution in Syria.

[snagglepuss]

11. I've been looking fro weeks. THe two you produce say nothing of what is happining to Yazidis.

[MADem]

19. You aren't going to do any better than a fatwa against ISIS.

You should understand that the religious scholars who issue these things generally operate on an "All Politics Is Local" mindset. They aren't going to worry so much about other communities, their "charge"--if you could call it that--is to make known their disapproval with regard to actions that affect THEIR community--if someone is messing with their people, or poisoning their minds with "dangerous" images or ideas, they're going to complain about it.

For any Ayatullah to issue a fatwa condemning the conduct of anyone towards the Yazid (who are pre-Islamic and a bit "cult-y" from their perspective, as they follow a polyglot sort of belief system) is as likely as an Ayatullah issuing a fatwa condemning the conduct of anyone towards, say, Catholics or Jews.

Fatwa tend to be "All about MEEEEEEE and MINE" exercises.

[snagglepuss]

37. Perhaps you need to try harder niether addresses the plight of Yazidis.

[MADem]

38. We had this conversation already. nt

[NuclearDem]

3. Funny how when you brutally slaughter those who oppose you

the rest of the opposition tends to be silent.

It's almost as if that's how terrorism works.

[snagglepuss]

5. Are you saying that ISIS has power through-out the Mulslim world?

That Muslims throughout the world are cowed? Of course that is piffle.

[NuclearDem]

7. I'm saying it's not the Muslim world's job to appease bigots in the West.

[snagglepuss]

12. I see you take the same path as those in Jewish community who condemn

critics of Israel as anti-semitism. So original.

[NuclearDem]

15. That analogy only works if you equate Israel with all of Judaism.

[snagglepuss]

18. Exactly and that is exactly what Zionists do. Zionists dismiss criticism of Israel

as a anti-semitism. Taking this victim posture has been extremely successful for Israel in silencing criticism which is why Muslims have adopted this tactic.

[Scootaloo]

4. Because Muslims worldwide want to help you justify your hatred of all 2 billion of them, clearly

Seriously, your attempt to cast mass guilt on basis of your belief that 2 billion human beings are obligated to inform you, personally, of their disdain for a couple thousand yahoos Somewhere Far Away™ is bigotry and far more appropriate for FreeRepublic or some other islamophobia-positive fuckhole place.

[snagglepuss]

6. Why then mass outrage in the Muslim world when some crappy cartoons that hurt no one

are published?

[Scootaloo]

8. Thanks for underlining my point for me

[snagglepuss]

13. Since ISIS is quoting the Koran for its forced conversions and slaughter of those

who reject Islam why wouldn't Islamic scholars at least tweet that forced conversions and slaughter of those who reject Islam is not Islamic. For us non-beleivers it appears that the silence is due to the fact that there is no protection in the Koran for people not of the Book.

[MADem]

22. For the same reason major Christian faiths don't "correct" the Westboro Baptist Church on every

dumbass pronouncement they make.

You legitimize groups when you engage them in that fashion. I'd say "Everyone, up off your behinds and fight and crush these assholes" is about as good as you're going to get.

Islam is not a unified faith. It's leadership is very local and regional. There is no Muslim Pope.

FWIW, the term "People of The Book" has a specific meaning and it includes Christians and Jews. The Yazid have a shatanic element to their faith which puts them outside the Ibrahimic/Abrahamic traditions. In Islam, shatan is more "present" than he is in some other faiths' ideations, he is the enemy of the faithful, and the whole "lead us not into temptation" admonition is a very big deal in Islam. In fact, the term "jihad" actually means "struggle," and the biggest "jihad" of Muslims is against shatan's influence.

[Recursion]

10. Are you not familiar with Google?

That's the only amusing thing about questions like this. They're actually easily answerable.

[snagglepuss]

14. Like I said I've been googling for weeks. Be my guest do a search and prove me wrong.

[NuclearDem]

16. Took me all of two minutes.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8113.htm

Among them some of the most widely-circulated Arabic-language news sources like Asharq Al-Awsat, and the Secretary-General of the Arab League.

Or, as you call it, silence.

[snagglepuss]

17. NONE of those pertain to Yazidis. I'll not hold my breath while you

search.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Those of a Manichaean bent won't admit this

While it's true that Islamophobes include some truly vile people, it
would behoove DUers to remember that the virtuous do not have a
monopoly on truth.

As is true for almost all armed conflicts throughout human history, no party has
clean hands in Iraq and Syria...

[MADem]

21. Find the fatwas opposing the Holocaust during WW2, why don't you?

Find the ones protesting the Armenian genocide, too, while you're at it.

Maybe you aren't clear on what those fatwahs are all about. It's a religious leader, talking to HIS people, about stuff that affects THEM.

It's not like the Pope talking about Peace, Love and Understanding. These Ayatullahs do not have that degree of reach, nor does their concern extend very far outside their own particular sect. They'll deal happily with other Muslims, so long as there is no conflict of interest, and they will "respect" people of the book (Xtians and Jews) but they really don't have a lot of love in their hearts for what they regard as Shatan-worshipping weirdos, which is how they view the Yazid. They feel the same way about Zoroastrians.

I imagine you've turned blue, and passed out, and begun breathing in a ragged, uneven way once more as you slowly regain consciousness after your breath-holding exercise, because you aren't going to find any full-throated defense of the Yazid coming out of the Ayatullahs. If you know anything about grassroots shi'a Islam you already know this, so why ask? The best you're going to get is that generic "Iraqi people, fight the invaders" argument, and since the Yazid are Iraqis, they're included in that exhortation.

[snagglepuss]

23. Given that ISIS is quoting the Koran of course this affects all Muslims because it

will raise suspicions in non-believers as to what Islam is all about. On one hand Muslims refer to themselves as the Uhmah, that they are all one then suddenly they claim there is no one Islam even though Salafis and others do claim there is just one Islam. When one looks at Islamic regimes that have stone people to death and find justification for such practices in the Koran then any non-believer finding that ideology/religion objectionable is rational. That said I find the bi-polar god of Abraham objectionable, an authoritarian, vicious war god. By your fruits ye shall know them.


As to Yazidis being Iraqis. They have always been persecuted. That info is easy to find. "Organized anti-Yazidi violence dates back to the Ottoman Empire. In the second half of the 19th century Yazidis were targeted by both Ottoman and local Kurdish leaders, and subjected to brutal campaigns of religious violence. "Yazidis often say they have been the victim of 72 previous genocides, or attempts at annihilation," says Matthew Barber, a scholar of Yazidi history at the University of Chicago who is in Dohuk interviewing Yazidi refugees. "Memory of persecution is a core component of their identity," he says. "

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140809-iraq-yazidis-minority-isil-religion-history/


As for your whataboutry. Whataboutry simply shows there is no valid argument.

[MADem]

24. Listen to what you're saying. I mean, really--your view is rather naively parochial, and

I don't think you even realize it.


Let me do some substituting and let's see if your argument holds water when the shoe is wedged on the other foot.

Given that Westboro Baptist Church is quoting the Holy Bible of course this affects all Christians because it will raise suspicions in non-believers as to what Christianity is all about.

Yeah, that works... The one without the "valid argument," I fear, is you.

From a Muslim POV, Islam is the Be All and End All--they don't give a shit what "inferior" religions think of them. Their attitude is that Christians and Jews are "misguided" (to be polite about it) and they certainly aren't going to lose any sleep over what "erroneous" people might think of them.

No one said that Yazids didn't get the hairy eyeball as a consequence of their pre-Islamic and shatanic faith elements down the years. They just weren't slaughtered in the streets, as ISIS is doing.

[snagglepuss]

25. The comparison with Christianity doesn't work because Christians identify themselves

and other Christians by the branch of Christianity they belong to, that is unless they are arrogent and assume their brand of Christianity is the only one.

The fact that Christians identify with their particular sect is a good thing in so far as each sect can denounce and separate themselves from other Christians they fervently disagree with. So when it comes to Westboro most Christians would Protestantism and many nonChristians would accurately place them on the far end of Protestantism. Muslims, on the other hand, seem, for lack of a better word, schizophrenic about their identity in that they don't want to identified by their respective sects until something horrific happens at which point they assert that Islam isn't monolithic.

[MADem]

30. Yes, it DOES work. Your assumption that Muslims don't identify themselves by their branch is NAIVE

and very wrongheaded. Do you actually not think that each branch of Christianity believes that THEY are the "way and the light" and that every other branch has it wrong? Sure, they can play the ecumenical game, but they belong to their OWN club for a reason--because they think their group has it right.

Do you think the Shi'a who were assaulted and murdered by fervent Sunnis in Egypt for the "crime" of being Shi'a last year said "Oh gee, they don't mean it, they don't identify themselves by their 'branch' of Islam---we're all in this together...please, no, stop beating me to death!!! Don't set me on fire!!! We're a team!!!!"

:large
al-Nour party poster reads: Together against the Shia.
They insult the prophets, they distort the Quran, they kill Sunnis

You call that "not wanting to be identified by their respective sects?" That's politics--and that's LOCAL.

There is so much you don't understand about Islam I just can't even begin... I'd suggest you do some reading. You do realize that your comment that Muslims are "schizophrenic about their identity" is pretty frigging, well, hateful, and if that kind of comment were made about Episcopalians or Jews, you'd probably be eating a pizza. You just might want to recalibrate.

Here's the bottom line--in Islam, like in Christianity and in Judaism, there are a few loony tunes. These people get all the press but they are not representative of the whole.

[snagglepuss]

32. A bigot is someone who treats members of a group (racial or ethnic ) with hatred & intolerance

There is nothing in what I said that indicates that I treat anyone in such a manner. The accusation is simply a smear. Taking issue with a religion has nothing to do with bigotry. If disliking an idea were bigotry than you'd have to argue that most every DUer is a bigot given the hostility to the GOP.

[MADem]

33. You said it, not me.

I'm pretty much done interacting with you. Your comments are offensive and you're doubling down on them. They don't belong on a progressive message board.

Life is short, and I have better things to do than deal with someone who paints all Muslims with a "schizophrenic" broad brush. Your remarks are insults on a number of levels and you really need to check yourself.

FWIW, I never knew that "GOP" was a racial or ethnic group--oh, the things one can learn here at DU...

[snagglepuss]

34. Republicans not a racial group? 87% of Republicians identify themselves

as non-Hispanic white.


http://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/economic-demographics-republicans/

[MADem]

36. Again, you said it. Don't tell Michael Steele or Herman Cain or Ileana Ros-Lehtinen or Marco Rubio

or Mario Díaz-Balart or Nikki Haley or JC Watts or Bobby Jindal or Mel Martinez, etc.

I'm sure they'd be very surprised to learn that GOP was a synonym for non Hispanic white.

[samsingh]

26. it says a lot about supporters of isis and those doing so quietly

- would themselves never want to live under isis mind you - but won't condemn them and might even take joy in their success

this is what happened after 911.

[JCMach1]

27. not 'people of the book' so it shouldn't be a shocker

i.e. check the laws about being an atheist in Saudi Arabia these days...

[CJCRANE]

35. Except they managed to get by in Iraq before the foreign vandals came along.

And the Sunni Kurds and Shia Arabs and Persians accept them or at least tolerate them.

[JCMach1]

39. They share some ethnic background (if not religion) with the Kurds...

As for the Iranis...

Fortunately for the Yazidis there are not that many there. I had a student whose family was Zoroastrian... The government and the religious leaders give a hell of time to that minority.

[Maedhros]

28. Wow. Open bigotry on DU.

We've come a long way, baby.

[snagglepuss]

29. Biogtry? Oh really. Please do elaborate.

[MADem]

31. It's not just me, then. Phew. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who was appalled

by all this broad brushing and nastiness.

I'm pretty offended, to be blunt about it.