1: Charge the cop with murder. 2: Fire the police chief.

[Stinky The Clown]

If the cop is innocent or if he's guilty, let the courts figure that out based on actual evidence. Hold the trial in an impartial venue. Charging him now seems justified based on the number of shots that killed an unarmed 18 year old man. (Civil rights violation charges may also be in order.)

The chief of police (think Rod Steiger in the movie "In The Heat Of The Night&quot is arguably derelict in his responsibility to train his officers if we have a cop fire multiple shots into a man who was "walking in the street".

If these two things were to happen, it seems to me that Ferguson would soon return to some semblance of calm.

Going forward, how does it happen that a town with the racial makeup of Ferguson wind up with a nearly all white police force and an all white city government?

[Cleita]

1. Actually, that was suggested by some lawyer type pundits on the TeeVee today.

The cop should be charged. He could still be out on bail. No paid leave, of course. Then the courts could sort it out eventually.

The police chief has to go and probably a lot of the police department with him.

[Horse with no Name]

2. Not to mention that he wouldn't allow medical personnel access to Brown once he was obviously

"contained".

That goes against just about every law enforcement protocol that exists.

[pintobean]

6. That's false.

[Horse with no Name]

7. What is false? n/t

[pintobean]

8. That he wouldn't allow medical personnel access to Brown

Medical personnel was there almost immediately.

[Horse with no Name]

9. That goes against the eyewitness accounts that I have read...if you have further info, please post i

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322617/-Ferguson-a-few-questions-for-the-police#

4) Why was Michael Brown denied medical attention?

The testimony of several eyewitnesses indicates that nothing was done to check on Brown's condition after the shooting. Not even so much as someone kneeling to check his pulse. At least one witness has said that a trained nurse was denied access to Brown while he lay roasting in his blood on the asphalt. Why? Why was no ambulance called? Wouldn't this have been routine? Who declared Michael Brown dead at the scene?

5) Were phones confiscated at the scene, and why?

Several witnesses have stated that they were either stopped from recording the scene, or that phones were taken. If one of those phones has evidence directly related to the shooting, then there's a good reason it should be held, but where is the chain of custody for these devices? Where is the documentation showing that they were properly collected and turned over to an investigative team, rather than immediately falling into possession of the man who shot Brown or other officers with an interest in removing evidence

[ReRe]

17. I've heard that...

... I've also heard many more times from reliable sources that he laid there for the better part of 4 hours. What did the "medical personnel" (EMT, I assume?) do? Treat the cop and leave?

[pintobean]

24. The two shots to the head

killed him almost immediately and were untreatable is what Dr. Baden said. How long do you think it would take EMT to figure that out? I would guess, in a matter of seconds.

There's video of EMT checking him. I can't imagine how gruesome that was for that person.

[ReRe]

25. So, if the person is dead...

... there's no rush to get him to the hospital or to the morgue? I know they had to wait until the coroner got there, but 4 hours? His body needed to be preserved and tested for evidence. And besides, I have never heard of anything more disrespectful in my life.

You're feeling sorry for the gruesomeness of an EMTs job? You have certainly got to be kidding me. You, pintobean, would not believe what EMTs do.

[pintobean]

28. Wow

Don't know what caused that hostility. I addressed the EMS, not the body being there so long.

I know cops, firefighters and EMS. I know what they do. They're still human, regardless of how often they deal with gruesome things. Yeah, I feel for them. They're doing shit that the rest of us don't want to even think about.

[ReRe]

30. I'm sorry...

... I totally misunderstood you from the beginning, I guess.

[Lurks Often]

32. Once the EMT's confirmed he was dead, removing the body

would have contaminated the crime scene. Police rarely/never remove a dead body from the crime scene until the coroner does his job, the crime scene is photographed and all other procedures involving the crime scene with the body present are completed.

If they can do successful autopsies on people dead for months and years, 4 hours isn't going to be much of an issue.

[ReRe]

33. Thanks for that info...

I knew about the coroner, but just felt like 4 hrs was a bit too long. Maybe that's a standard amount of time. Later friend.

[truedelphi]

36. Senator Wellstone, his wife, daughter, staff and two pilots - their bodies remained

In their charred private airplane overnight. For some damn reason or other.

I am offering up that fact just to show that some weird stuff happens when something political goes down.

[ReRe]

37. That's horrible...

... Angels, every single one of them. I will never ever forget the day that happened. I was on a road trip and had to take a break for a while to pull myself together.

[truedelphi]

39. It really was horrible. And I knew in my heart of hearts that so much surrounding

the event indicated a coverup.

I was told again and again by the authorities that the bodies being left inside a plane overnight was just "standard operating procedure." But any thinking person knows if this had been George and Laura' Bush's plane that went down, a night time recovery of the bodies would have proceeded.

For whoever was behind it, it was supposed to be a "two for." Ted Kennedy had planned to be on the Wellstone plane, and only at the very last minute did he make other plans.

[ReRe]

59. Agree on all counts. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

38. an EMT does not have the independent right to declare someone dead

that can only be done by a doctor, a nurse with special training or a Justice of the Peace.

Until that person is legally declared dead by a person of such authority, that EMT is OBLIGATED by license to perform BLS/ACLS protocols.

So, if it is true that an EMT circled the body and decided he was dead, someone needs to hold him accountable in this murder as well.

[truedelphi]

40. I don't think that is true at all.

I have declared at least one of my patients to be dead, and then called authorities. The highest medical ranking I ever received was Certified Nursing Assistant.

I do think charges can be made if something questionable is proven.

But when one person finds another person in the middle stages of rigor mortis, lips blue, cold to the touch, there is really not much that can be done. (Unless you know where you can find Jesus.)

[Horse with no Name]

41. Outside of the hospital the protocol is to call a Justice of the Peace or transport to a hospital

for declaration. In your practice, you may have noticed someone to be obviously dead, but you were not authorized to "declare" time of death and sign a death certificate stating that.

An EMT cannot pronounce death but can refuse to treat if a patient has dependent lividity (rigor mortis) or is decapitated. They can also phone a doctor and a doctor can declare over the phone a patient is dead.
One of the reasons that these types of trauma patients are taken to the hospital is because they are EXCELLENT organ donors, so despite the fact that there might have been brain matter splattered, putting this patient on life support and transporting was the correct thing to do so that the situation in its entirety could be assessed. This cop took a lot of choices away from this family that they were rightfully due.

There is an actual process to the declaration which eyewitnesses would have noticed someone doing, however, eyewitnesses stated that they didn't even notice anyone do a pulse check.

[truedelphi]

42. Points taken. But in this case, if police had "secured' the area, I doubt that any EMT

(unless they had the weapons and the abilities of a Rambo), could overtake that police holding, and help a patient the police did not want them to help.

[Horse with no Name]

45. and that is the problem, lol. n/t

[pintobean]

43. The EMT in this case

got on the phone right away.

[Horse with no Name]

46. Eyewitnesses say he did not do a pulse check

how did he determine death?

[Horse with no Name]

47. Cause you don't just get to sit back and do a look-see on these types of things

a stethoscope to the chest for one minute would have been the most rudimentary of procedures in this situation.

[pintobean]

48. Other eyewitnesses say he wasn't there.

[Horse with no Name]

49. there are gaping issues with this

that I doubt will ever be addressed.

[truedelphi]

50. Pintobean - That is part of my point.

"Horse with no name" is saying to charge this anonymous EMT with charges about the EMT not tending to an injured or dying man.

But we don't even know if the EMT phone line was called. Michael Brown didn't get a chance to phone for help. And I have heard that witnesses had their phones taken away from them. The police certainly wouldn't call for help for Michael.

The EMT's do not sit around listening to police scanners. They are totally busy, especially in this day and age of government cut backs. They only come when there is an actual call placed to the EMT center.

Same as it ever was. (And please I am not justifying the police and their murderous scumbag activities)

Fred Hampton was wounded in the Chicago police massacre upon Black Panther "Headquarters"

Decades later, the public comes to find out that Hampton had been given a kill shot or two to finish him off, and then declared dead. How can anyone blame the EMT's in Chicago for this?

[polly7]

51. Exactly right. nt.

[ncjustice80]

53. What state?

Not all states have Justices of the Peace. Laws vary from place to place.

[Horse with no Name]

60. The protocols don't change

The JP or County Judge or some other designated official that performs at this capacity.

Depending on the jurisdiction, they may just transport to the hospital.

[iscooterliberally]

52. I agree.

I am a certified firefighter in the state of Florida. I graduated from Fire Academy in 1981 and also had an EMT license. My EMT license expired in 1986 though, and I haven't worked in the field since then. I do remember from my ambulance time that EMTs cannot pronounce someone dead. Maybe things have changed since then, or are different in MO? I don't know for sure. What we could do was tell if someone was 'obviously dead'. This is pretty much what it sounds like, and if you have any basic medical knowledge you'll know what I mean. I would go through what we called our ABCs back then. ABC in this case meant Airway, Breathing/Bleeding, Circulation. If I rolled up on the scene and the police let me near the body, this is what I would go through. Back in my day there were Paramedics with much more medical experience than I had, so I usually just did what I was told. Paramedics went to school for 2 years. I only went for 6 months. If I were the first responder and the person was still warm to the touch, but not breathing, I would start CPR immediately. Even if the person ended up brain dead, they could be an organ donor (sorry to be ghoulish, but it saves lives). There is nothing usual about this case at all. Every dead body I ever saw got covered with a tarp, but then again I didn't hang out in crime scenes either. I dealt with the living, and took them to the hospital.

[Maedhros]

56. Is there a link to the video? [n/t]

[pintobean]

57. Part of it is in this CNN story.

The raw video that was on youtube has been made private. It had been posted several times on DU, so you may have already seen it.

[Maedhros]

58. I hadn't - thank you. [n/t]

[oldandhappy]

3. Agree! Very Clear!!

Thank you. With you.

[Amonester]

4. Lack of Leadership.

I mean, lack of a real True-Justice minded leadership.

Just a bunch of Profit-Oriented minded lackeys.

[pipoman]

5. How about charge the cop with something he may actually be convicted of?

Or maybe Zimmerman II is OK with some...

[Solomon]

21. lol. Now if thats not white privilege i dont know what else is. lets just charge white people only

things they can get convicted of. Guess that's why y'all don't get busted for drugs and other shit. Meanwhile charge away on black people. You can convict.them of anything, even shit they haven't done.

Perfect!

[pipoman]

23. the level of ignorance of our justice system never ceases to amaze. .

[truedelphi]

44. How does Solomon's post indicate ignorance?

A lot of the "Justice" in our nation comes about in the backseat of an police car.

In fact, the topic we are posting on here involves just that sort of justice.

If you live in a suburb, and you have always had a decent bank account (except maybe when slumming it during your college years,) you really cannot address what happens to most African Americans, most other people of color, most mentally ill people, most totally poor people.

It is common practice for police to simply detain people, for their amusement and their personal gain, if cruising around one night and bored.

Young 20 something guy, looks to be semi-employed, and something tells the police that he does drugs. Search the kid, then tell him you will forgive the minor drug charge for the weed in his back pocket, but believe you me, the kid knows better than to ask for the few bills and change back.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, perhaps you have forgotten the week long discussion we had here on DU not too long ago, about the Chicago police man who tortured black men into confessing their having committed major crimes. Those men went on to serve decades long sentences, for crimes they did not even know about until tortured.

If you want more info, visit any of the Project Innocent websites and read through the hundreds and hundreds of cases of innocent people convicted of a crime because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[pipoman]

55. Ignorance is public outcry and demand for murder charges

When there is not enough (or any) evidence to support such a charge, then proclaiming corruption of a racist jury when they aquit. (See Zimmerman) Had the public pressure and threats of rioting if Zimmerman wasn't charged with murder not happened, and instead he was charged with a lesser crime, he would more likely have a conviction right now...

As for the rest, I have a better understanding than most having spent the better part of my adult life as a defense investigator, including many hours each year pro bono, and on low paying court appointments for indigent defendants. I've seen it all and more, you will be hard pressed to find a more devout civil libertarian than me.

[TransitJohn]

31. Fuck that. Charge him like anyone else: stack them up sky high!

Any non-cop would have around a dozen or 20 charges stacked up on him. They do this to keep cases out of court, and people plea down. Conviction rates stay high.

[pipoman]

34. Exactly the point

In the Zimmerman case the public screamed for murder charges. The prosecution was very reluctant because they knew they didn't have a murder case, but succumbed to the public pressure and lost the case predictably. Had this been a less public case, he may have been charged with negligent homicide or something and the chances for an actual conviction would have been better.

once again we have the know-nothing public screaming for murder charges....

[erpowers]

10. Organize the People of Ferguson

The people of Ferguson need to be organized. Then black people need to be encouraged to run for office and encouraged to vote. Most likely the only reason the city has a mostly/all white leadership is because the black people of the community do not vote in local elections.

[MrMickeysMom]

11. Said it earlier… I'll agree again now...

Live in a mixed demographic municipality of 27 thousand that has one black cop, and rid itself of the other one. Oh, and one female cop. Lots of things over the years… slow boil…

The police chief gonna be just? Just? Oh, come on...

[Faryn Balyncd]

12. 3. Charge the Chief with obstruction of justice.

[KauaiK]

13. This is right on point!

[SoapBox]

14. I agree with both points.

[grasswire]

15. Stinky, did you see the info about the cash cow racket in Ferguson?

The people have truly been oppressed by a racket in their town, perpetuated by the police and the courts. The "overlords" are just using the population as a cash cow.

No wonder they want to maintain the status quo. It pays better than cotton farjing, apparently.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Stinky.

[Live and Learn]

18. 4. Demilitarize the police. nt

[ncjustice80]

54. 5. DISARM the police

They cant be trusted with, nor do they need, firearms or body armor.

[ReRe]

19. I second your motion.

Be done with it all. Maybe the locals will do it tomorrow ahead of AG Holder coming to town on Wed? Seems like they are into that... one-upping their peer orgs or uppers. Yeah, that Police Chief came straight out of the past, didn't he? That's what you call an old-fashioned "Good-Ole-Boy" right there. KKK-type. I bet you they've got some serious history in that town. I think I'm going to run and see what I can find on it's past. I'm thinking along the lines of vigilantes.

[uponit7771]

20. +1

[NuttyFluffers]

22. overdue, and yes, such actions would help.

the suspect, a.k.a. cop who shot Mike Brown, should have been arrested and processed in the jail.

the police chief has visibly shown he is incompetent in the face of a real crisis, and should be relieved immediately before he causes greater harm to the community.

this is not a palliative to the community, some sort of "appeasement". it is straight up justice – and community self-interest for de-escalation. any more waiting is just dumb.

[Gothmog]

26. The police chief has been relieved of all responsibility in this matter

[JustAnotherGen]

27. Amen

[R B Garr]

29. Totally agree.

K&R

[eleny]

35. Tamron Hall just interviewed the Ferguson, MO Mayor....

He just told her that there isn't a racial divide in Ferguson.

We're a long way from rational solutions.