I have a seventeen year old brother and I fully understand that kids do things

[La Lioness Priyanka]

some are stupid, some are exploratory, and some are innocuous

If he stole some cigars (maybe, as a prank), smoked some pot (who hasn't, really), or jaywalked (again, who hasn't?), I really hope no one believes that this is a reason to gun him down.

This narrative coming from a racist police force and being perpetuated by a media that is often uncritical of authority, is really maddening.

[gollygee]

1. The cigars are a red herring

The police officer didn't know what was happening, and even if he had known, stealing cigars doesn't make someone so threatening you have to gun them down.

But yeah.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. its all red herrings. i think that is my point

[gollygee]

5. Yeah

How long does marijuana stay in your system? It's a long time. If they tested every member of the police department, I have no doubt at all that a decent number would have marijuana in their systems. Does that make them crazy?

And jaywalking? I think that was made up as the reason Michael Brown was stopped. I think it's more likely they just randomly stop African American young men. Because that's how our country works.

[hollysmom]

38. OOoh OOOh so true

I am the weird one who never tried drugs but I do drink and have drunk too much occasionally, but only one at college who never smoked ha ha
Anyway, Just after college and after I got married and was having a dinner with a girl friend and not my husband, I had a cop try and pick me up and say some very rude things as if he thought I was like the town slut - (it was the 60's I was not into free love either even though I had long straight hair and short skirts - every woman did). I told him I was not interested and he called me a damned hippy and cocked his gun, held it to my head and asked me to sing the star spangled banner. Luckily several of his friends and an alderman took him down before he could shoot me. If I sang he would have shot me, I can not sing on key to save my life. They apologized for him and said he was high on pot - go figure - who was the criminal there, I was just eating dinner with a friend.

[Cali_Democrat]

3. Michael Brown had weed in his system!!! Don't you see!!11!!

Only black teenagers smoke pot...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. lol. everyone i know must be black then, besides my actually black ex gf

who is maybe the only person i know who hasn't smoked pot.

[gollygee]

8. I've never smoked pot

although I hear it's good for migraine headaches so maybe I should try it.

But I don't think everyone has. Maybe a majority.

My migraine headaches are why I never tried it - I knew cigarette smoke triggered my migraines and I assumed marijuana would too.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. i said everyone i know. i live in an highly urban area and most people i know are well under 40

so maybe that has something to do with my perceptions of pot usage.

[phylny]

53. White, 56 years old here, don't smoke pot anymore, but

most people I know did when they were younger, some friends of mine still do.

[AngryAmish]

15. Black folks use drugs at a lower rate than white folks

They just get arrested for it more.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. i know. nt

[phylny]

54. REALLY. Do tell. n/t

[jwirr]

9. Or maybe only black teenagers get shot for it. Of course I know others have but to get shot for

something that is so close to becoming legal is beyond belief.

[fishwax]

6. as you said upthread, all red herrings

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. all things to malign the victim. none really proven at all.

[exboyfil]

7. Shoplifting some cigars is different

than pushing a storekeeper into a rack and then going back to intimidate him. There is some question as to the reason for the confrontation, and the storekeeper did initiate the first physical contact (it was slight). He had every right to detain a suspected shoplifter.

It is not a reason to shoot Brown at a distance, but I would have no difficulty understanding how Brown could have initiated the initial physical contact if he had been stopped by the police. It really hurts the initial narrative of a Brown innocently walking down the middle of the road.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. again, since he was not tried by a jury, we don't actually know if he was guilty

or exactly how that 'crime' went down. or if at all it did go down.

my point is that i can imagine a really good kid (including my brother, who is by all accounts a really great kid) stealing something minor for some reason that only teens can really fathom

[Travis_0004]

35. The defense will argue that he is not the gentle giant he was portrayed as

If assulted a store keeper 10 minutes ago and likely didnt want to be arrested it is more likely that he would have assulted a cop to get away. The cop didnt know about the robbery yet but mike didnt know that.

In that sense the robbery is relevent and it certainly boosts the cops defense.

[louis-t]

51. I still think Mike was up to some shenanigans, but..

if you watch the part of the tape where he appears to pay for the items, then reaches behind the counter, jumps back when the cashier yells at him. Then you see them both putting a bunch of packages back on the counter but some boxes fell on the floor. He calmly picks them up and counts them, then walks away. Did he have more boxes then he paid for?

[Lee-Lee]

10. While it is no reason to shoot anyone

Stealing cigars and using physical force against a store employee to do it is NOT a "prank", and the attitude that dismisses criminal behavior like this as a harmless prank it what leads to kids growing up thinking it is acceptable. Kids thinking it is acceptable leads them to do it, that leads to getting caught, that leads to starting life with a criminal record and putting them onto a path of almost certain poverty by stacking the odds against them even more.

Stop calling actions like that a "prank". It is anything but, it shouldn't be tolerated or excused among our youth if we want them to have a decent chance at a future or have a civil society and good neighborhoods that attract good jobs.

Look at it this way- had he just been caught and arrested, it's a felony under MO law because he assaulted the store employee. I am sure his defense and the prosecution would have struck a deal for a lessor charge, but he would have had a record following him for life and might have screwed up his chances of going to college in the fall. He would no longer have the option of joining the military, becoming a cop, getting any job requiring a background check for the next 5-8 years, and it would be more difficult to rent an apartment.

That's not a prank- it's behavior that we shouldn't tolerate or excuse because it's bad for those doing it and bad for society.

Quite tolerating, making excuses for, or diminishing this kind of stuff when our youth do it. Whenever you do you are putting out the attitude that it's no big deal and helping perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. First of all, we don't know that he did it. When kids do things we shouldnt escalate

into criminality, especially when years of social science has shown that we assume Black teens are adult men, whereas white and Asian kids are still considered kids.

Quit pretending race is not an issue when weighing the criminality of a deed. Also, quit pretending that you actually know whether or not he was guilty of this 'crime'.

[Lee-Lee]

16. He was 18, an adult

And the elements of a crime exist regardless of race.

My whole point is that even if he was alive, this one incident could have resulted in an arrest and conviction that followed him the rest of his life- and that is a big deal. The kind of big deal that puts more roadblocks in the path of young men and women who already have too many, and results in a life of poverty they can't escape.

It's not a prank, calling it that does a great disservice to our youth who need to be guided down a better path.

[Gormy Cuss]

21. That this country has lost its mind on appropriate response to minor criminal behavior

concerns me more than whether or not this action was a prank.

I have no doubt that white college boy from a family with middle income or higher would have been arrested, had the charges set aside under the guise of it being a youthful indiscretion, and suffered no lifelong consequences.

[Lee-Lee]

23. Assaulting a store clerk during a theft is not "minor"

And your attitude calling it suck is part of the problem I am describing.

[Gormy Cuss]

25. The theft was minor. If the clerk grabbed him first, or physically tried to prevent him from leaving

then grabbing the clerk was defensive, not offensive and yes, a minor offense in the greater scheme of things, or at least it used to be treated as such if the person had no violent criminal history.

Your attitude of trying to elevate the nature of the behavior to serious crime is an example of the problem I described. The country has lost its damn mind when that level of incident is enough to screw over someone's potential jobs, training, etc. for life.

[Lee-Lee]

29. No, the clerk had every right to stop him under the law

In no way was what we saw on the video justified as a "defensive" move, even if the clerk touched him first.

[Gormy Cuss]

32. If a clerk grabbed me when I tried to exit, I'd push back.

It's a natural, defensive reaction. If the law allows a clerk to commit battery because he/she thinks I'm a shoplifter, the law is screwed up.

[Lee-Lee]

34. Look up "shopkeepers privilege" nt

[Gormy Cuss]

36. Missing the point, again.

Last edited Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:13 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't care if the shopkeeper has the legal right to detain me that way. It's a natural reaction to push back and it's a PROVOKED assault and battery.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. ' screw over someone's potential jobs, training, etc. for life. '

and it's never just someone, it's someone of color.

this entire pretense that we judge criminality the same regardless of who is committing crime, is just white privilege in action (this statement is not addressed at you gormy but to the person you are responding to)

[Gormy Cuss]

33. Someone will leap in and say it's a class issue, not a racial one

so we might as well cover that one now.
Income matters, but only to the extent that higher income whites get a pass. Higher income POCs don't.

[lolly]

37. Well, since the shopkeeper didn't even report it

And apparently didn't consider it a crime, then no, it probably wouldn't have followed him.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. I think there's a big gap between "tolerating and excusing" and "shooting", don't you agree?

Someone caught stealing should be prosecuted... by the courts. Not executed by the police.

[Lee-Lee]

20. Agreed- but we also shouldn't be calling it a "prank" nt

[Glitterati]

24. The courts would have

why not us?

Look, we have no idea WHAT happened in that store. What we DO know is that it was so minor the employee never even bothered to call the cops about it. Yeah, call that a "felony" if you want but you, like the press and the racists PD, are blowing this all out of proportion.

The bottom line is simple, IF Michael Brown had been prosecuted for some trumped up "crime" here, it would have been pled down to a misdemeanor and on first offender status. The kid didn't have a record. Once he was sufficiently contrite to the court, his record would have been wiped clean. Yes, a prank.

For all we know, Michael paid for this cigars (we SAW that, thankyouverymuch) and the store clerk might have been harassing him for ID to buy the damned things, even when he's served him many times and KNOWS his age because he's seen his ID many, many times.

The bottom line is simple. Had Michael Brown been allowed to LIVE to face whatever his conduct was, the courts would have simply laughed the prank out of the courtroom and the prosecutor wouldn't have wasted valuable dollars to take it to court.

Instead, Michael Brown is dead. Murdered by a cop. In. The. Street. With. His. Hands. Up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. The theories, observations and factoids offered as expanatory of the shooting...

... are themselves phenomena almost as disturbing as the shooting himself.

i.e. "Do you really think that smoking pot, flipping off a camera or stealing cigars justifies lethal force?"

[bigtree]

19. it is maddening, La Lioness Priyanka

. . . your sentiment is evidently a powerful motivator for protest action among members of the Ferguson community. Our youth are to benefit from the lessons we provide them as they grow. That opportunity is tragically over for Mike Brown - still an imperative for those remaining.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. agreed, give these kids the benefit of the doubt and quit pretending that they are

hardened criminals of some sort.

[ismnotwasm]

22. I have a fully grown son

Who could be, quite frankly, an asshole when he was younger. For one fairly mild instance, one night, he and a friend shattered a bus stop plexiglass, his friend was difficult to subdue and spit on the cop car. Both were charged with resisting arrest.
Both are white. (actually my son is half Native American-- but he appears white) Neither were shot to death. They went to jail.

My son is doing ok now, has a decent life. White privilege in action. He got to grow up.

[Lex]

26. "He got to grow up."

Exactly. White kids are "just being teenagers" while black kids are being "dangerous."

Institutionalized racism.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. exactly this. nt

[think_in_code]

39. The media did him in

They played selective parts of the tape over and over again and didn't present the full picture. Yes, Brown should not have taken the cigarellos but describing what he did as a "strong armed robbery" was a bit much. He only grabbed the clerk when the clerk tried to prevent him from leaving. Ignorant behavior, yes, all out thuggary worthy of being executed for I think not. The funny thing about the media is that they love to call into question Brown's character but have done nothing to call into question the character of the police force. I mean for God's sake why is nobody in the media expressing outrage at the fact that the boy's dead body laid out on the concrete for hours before anybody even so much as put a sheet over him. Don't be fooled, the American media has and always will have an agenda. All they want to do is create anger on both sides and drive people to watch their shows so that they can reap more profits. Shameful.

[FiveGoodMen]

40. Do we even know that that was him?

I sure can't tell by looking at the video.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. no, we don't. i was just saying, even if the worst is true

the death is still completely unwarranted

[FiveGoodMen]

49. Agreed

It's just that post after post seems to imply that that issue is settled.

I just wondered if someone has corroborated that because if all they're going on is the video ... it doesn't look like much to me!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. also we honestly dont know how much this video was edited

or what preceded it. this police department cannot be trusted.

[Marrah_G]

41. It's not a prank, but it also did not require that level of force from police.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. well we don't actually know what happened, we can't even confirm that it was a robbery

given that no judge/jury/hearing/witnesses were involved.

this is what happens when the entire justice system is taken into the hands of cops.

[Marrah_G]

44. I mean that shoplifting is not a prank

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. i think it could well be for a teenager. nt

[Marrah_G]

46. I think maybe we have different ideas on what a prank is. :)

No worries- the important thing is the police's over reaction to the situation resulting in the murder of a young man.

[JI7]

48. also annoying is the Store owner himself is saying nothing that happened in the store

had anything to do with what happened to brown being shot and killed. the store owner himself didn't call the cops about anything.

and yet you have people trying to use it to justify him being shot .

[JI7]

47. i work in an area with a lot of bars

it's mostly white although there is a decent amount of diversity .

but i see white guys doing things all the time which when done by a black guy is described as thuggish and results in lectures about the black community. guys who are yelling and screaming and throwing things and harrassing women .

i see white guys being assholes to cops when they are drunk or even when they are not drunk. they start saying shit to the cops and usually the cops either just laugh at them and escort them away but they are never violent with them.