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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsrael claims it is defending itself, but I have a question.
Where are the pictures of Israeli towns or villages destroyed - you know, like the ones in Gaza? Could it be there aren't any? I'm sure that, if they existed, Israel would publish them, just for propaganda purposes if nothing else. I think it's significant there hasn't been any.
Not that I WANT to see such pictures, but I find the pictures and videos of the destruction of Gaza to be devastating and heart-breaking.
Could it be that Israel is up to something more than just "defending itself"?
hack89
(39,171 posts)That is what they are defending themselves from.
Iggo
(47,486 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)There have been many reporters in both Israel and Gaza that talk about how many (yesterday it was around 100) rockets fly from Gaza into Israel. Don't let your disdain for Israel overcome your good sense and make you ignore reality. Just this morning one landed very close to a school.
Response to leftynyc (Reply #67)
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Recursion
(56,582 posts)Only one of them is actually killing civilians, though. The other is just trying to.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Unless provoking the IDF to kill their people is their tactic. Don't you have faith that Hamas knows what they are doing?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Think the IRA in the 30s or the ANC in the 60s or the LTTE in the oughts.
The depressing fact is that terrorism has been the most successful tactic against occupations yet invented.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:23 PM - Edit history (2)
The Israelis have effectively walled off the Palestinians - there have been no suicide bombings in a long time. Hamas' ability to kill Jews is extremely limited and with the blockade will remain so.
The IRA and ANC won by making their countries ungovernable. Hamas can't do that to Israel.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Israel does this through entrance interviews, too, so literally no one is coming in and doing something without some serious failure in the entrance interview system (which so far has proved to be infallible, I have to wonder if they have an AI lie detector; yes they exist).
Basically the "fight from within" is not going to happen to Israel because of their policies.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)You always do it
hack89
(39,171 posts)They never have been. The people of Gaza are double victim - of both Hamas' stupidity the the response it provokes.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)and Israeli weapons. Strangely Hamas is made up of Palestinians, I wonder why? could it be because of Israeli oppression?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)has right in their charter - in writing - that their aim is to destroy Israel and kill Jews. They don't want their own country - they want Israel - ALL of Israel.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Spare me.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)I repeat, Palestinians are and long have been subject to oppression by (and summary death from) Israeli forces. Do you want them to just lie back and think of Israel?
What was your opinion of the Provos? Do you think their long struggle was uncalled for?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)of terrorists. And since hamas is too cowardly to allow another election, I blame them for the oppression of Gaza.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Are the Palestinians to blame for that? Please, tell me how
Response to hack89 (Reply #1)
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snooper2
(30,151 posts)she brought me a beer LOL
4now
(1,596 posts)Knowing that this close to a US election no American politicians would say a word.
He chose to kill so many Palestinians so that the world would know Israel has the power and the US is the puppet.
Viva_Daddy
(785 posts)Just a piece of land here...a piece of land there...until Palestine itself ceases to exist...or moves entirely to Jordan...and then Jordan will be next.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Israel does not need the Gaza fields to be energy independent.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Money is the primary purpose of natural gas exploitation
truth2power
(8,219 posts)If the elites can make another nickel, what are another 2000 lives?
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)There are no Israeli towns/villages destroyed because Hamas is not good enough in their attacks to make that much damage. The rockets Hamas is using are not that accurate. The Israeli defenses do a good job at shooting down the rockets that get close to the major towns/villages.
On the other hand, the IDF is very good at its military offensives and has the quality weapons to achieve its goals.
4now
(1,596 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)4now
(1,596 posts)Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
So the IDF is much better at killing civilians then militants.
From Washington Post Gaza counter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
217 were armed Palestinian militants. Of those, 2 were children.
1396 were Palestinian civilians. Of those, 222 were women and 418 were children.
Mosby
(16,158 posts)4now
(1,596 posts)"Statistics on death tolls during active conflict are often difficult to track accurately. A note on our sourcing:
For death toll numbers from within Gaza, we receive daily or sometimes twice daily updates from the head of the Information Management Unit in the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the Occupied Palestinian Territories field office in the West Bank. The field office gets updates from multiple sources within Gaza, including U.N. agencies and the Palestinian Medical Authorities. They then create and continually update a spreadsheet of all available data. These numbers are often not complete, but represent the best available data and do tend to clarify over time. Israel disputes the numbers provided by the United Nations, saying that a large number of those killed, particularly males over 18, were armed terrorists and not civilians.
For death toll numbers of Israeli soldiers, we rely on Israel Defense Forces press releases and their Twitter account. For Israeli civilian deaths, we rely on news reports and our reporters in Israel and Gaza. These numbers are similarly tentative initially but clarify over time."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
If you have a better source on the death toll in Gaza please share the link.
Thanks
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I'll save my shaming finger for the terrorists.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israels responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion. The ICJ explained that an armed attack that would trigger Article 51 must be attributable to a sovereign state, but the armed attacks by Palestinians emerge from within Israels jurisdictional control. Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering. The statement that no country would tolerate rocket fire from a neighboring country is therefore both a diversion and baseless.
Israel denies Palestinians the right to govern and protect themselves, while simultaneously invoking the right to self-defense. This is a conundrum and a violation of international law, one that Israel deliberately created to evade accountability.
elias49
(4,259 posts)of Ferguson.
Helluva a thing. Familiarity breeds
Viva_Daddy
(785 posts)Here are cops, safely cocooned in their "protective gear" (re: Iron Dome), still terrified of the "darkies" and over-reacting/over-compensating for that fear.
elias49
(4,259 posts)not so much Missouri.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Or am I missing the point.
Try a little search called suicide bomber and anything remotely about Israel.
For example
Search : "suicide bomber" and let's say "bugs friggin bunny".
That ought to be close enough to get you some info.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)The question of the OP was basically what's Israel defending itself from. You bring up suicide bombings as though they're still happening. Their point in asking you when the last one happened was to point that out.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)Though as yr still not getting the point even after having it explained to you, I'm not sure how successful it'd be...
hack89
(39,171 posts)Don't blame dumb - you are smarter than that.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)I figure you don't like giving the Palestinians credit for making good decisions, but an enterprising and committed suicide bomber could easily have found many of the parts of that 'big wall' that weren't built yet to get to where they wanted to go...
Recursion
(56,582 posts)How on earth is that a "security" issue?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)A blockade is an act of war, which legalizes Hamas's attacks. Gaza, like Israel, has a right to defend itself.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Let's just be hopeful then for resolve.
Response to Boom Sound 416 (Reply #26)
Recursion This message was self-deleted by its author.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Take it up with them.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Arriving means they could've brought something in.
It's not really that complicated.
Why doesn't Hamas just let a third party inspect all shipments (with both Hamas and Israeli inspectors)?
Simple enough.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They don't even have to have a berth with offloading facilities.
Why doesn't Hamas just let a third party inspect all shipments
Why doesn't the US allow China to inspect ships coming in to Oakland?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Maybe I don't understand the logistics.
Allow everything but weapons in. That seems like a practical solution.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I've yet to hear a reasonable argument for that.
former9thward
(31,798 posts)Just ask Germany and Japan. Gaza attacked. Where are the pictures of destroyed U.S. towns and cities from either WW I or WW II? That did not stop us from destroying our attackers.
malaise
(267,784 posts)This is genocide and land theft with support from the West.
nookworld
(22 posts)they attack a vastly superior military and then cry when they get their asses kicked.
then they do it again.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)I have a lot of respect for the Palestinians' will to fight the occupation of the West Bank and entrapment in Gaza. Their tactics aren't usually very wise and the outcome is almost assuredly against them. But they have no other alternative except to give the Israelis the West Bank and control of the Jordan river.
nookworld
(22 posts)without question.
It can't possibly succeed.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Tell that to any successful partisan movement.
Certainly insurrections can't usually succeed in the short run. It is asymmetric warfare and those involved know it is a long term strategy, costly strategy. Often the price is worth paying.
nookworld
(22 posts)This is their homeland & religious holy land.
There are no jungles for rebels to hide in
Military technology has advanced leaps & bounds since the 1960's.
Today the superior technology will win...every single time.
What real purpose does firing rockets across the border serve??
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Maybe you need to read up a bit on military strategies and insurgencies before you post anymore.
You made a blanket statement that It's futile to go to war against a superior military. I gave an example that disproved your statement. You were wrong.
If you want to make the argument that Palestinian resistance can never work, you are wrong again. But, I won't explain it to you. Do a little reading and you'll find out how it can work.
nookworld
(22 posts)the Superior Military will win.
the nature of warfare has changed greatly with the introduction of high technology.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I think you have it exactly backwards: modern warfare favors the insurgent.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Israel could completely flatten Gaza if it wanted to (which is why I was dismayed by the Warshaw Ghetto posts, totally completely and utterly different scenario; show a flattened block and presenting it as if all of Gaza was flattened, a joke).
If Israel would act the way they're being portrayed, then they'd be sanctioned and probably wiped off the map by Muslim invaders. Not saying Israel isn't using excessive force, but they are regularly accused of far worse atrocities (genocide comes to mind).
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)I'm not countenancing endless war or a garrison state but isn't that what the invaders tried unsuccessfully to do in 48, 67, and 73.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Please spend some time educating yourself on this issue. It is not just a matter of technology, in fact military superiority is only one factor.
The US had all the advanced technology in Iraq and still was almost stalemated by an insurgency. It was only after the US was able to bribe Sunnis not to fight that the insurgency calmed down. Money stopped that insurgency, not technology.
Calista241
(5,584 posts)And doesn't have to secure that territory like the US did in Iraq.
Which means Hamas has to bring the fight to the Israeli's. In this case, Israeli technology sets a very high bar for Hamas to overcome.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)I wish people would do a little reading on insurgencies and asymmetric warfare before they make comments on this situation.
Technology is an advantage, but it is not a decisive advantage.
Calista241
(5,584 posts)Hamas is digging tunnels because they haven't been able to attrit the Israeli's appreciably through the tactics they're currently using.
And I don't see the Israeli's suddenly opening the border for other reasons and allowing attacks that Hamas has so far not been able to successfully prosecute.
Hamas's only real options are:
1. Upgrade their rocket forces
2. Stage a breakout / raid through the wall into Israel
3. Lure Israeli military forces into gaza and into a trap.
Effective Asymmetric warfare requires mobility, stealth and access to resources. Hamas has none of these things.
Sun Tzu (who basically invented the concept of asymmetric warfare) said "the wisest strategy avoids the enemy's strength and probes for weakness."
What weaknesses do the Israelis have that are exploitable by Hamas? Hamas is trying to attack a superior opponent on that opponents home territory. And when Israel does invade gaza periodically, Hamas is unable to capitalize.
Killing 50, 60, 200, or a thousand soldiers does not change the situation or alter the balance of power.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)You are also misunderstanding what the goals of the insurgency are. They don't have to change the balance of power. The Palestinians will never have the military might of the Israelis. They simply have to make the cost of the status quo unpleasant enough that the Israelis come to the bargaining table ready to make a fair and just peace.
The primary goal, apologies to Sun Tzu, is to survive as a fighting force. The Palestinians have to take the long view.
They can continue the struggle by acknowledging that one of their strengths is the ability and willingness to take casualties. That is a possible weakness on the Israeli side. The implications of this approach are dreadful, but it is a strategy.
Also technological side, Israel, incurs much higher economic costs to support their military structure. Replacement costs are high. The Palestinians have an advantage there as well, although they cannot realize the benefits until the US stops bankrolling Israel's military.
The Palestinians also have a potentially winning external strategy--win over the rest of the world to the justness of their cause. The Palestinians have been very poor at exploiting this strength. The Israelis have been moderately successful in marketing the fight as against terrorism rather than the maintaining of an occupation.
These are just a few strategic areas where the Palestinians have some potential advantages. There are many more tactical items as well. These could be decisive over a long, drawn out conflict. We are already starting to see some of the support for Israel around the world decline.
The Palestinians unfortunately are their own worst enemies as far as implementing a coherent long term approach. Exhibit A for that would be the contemptible suicide bombing campaigns of a few years back.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)You are ignoring Sun Tzu's admonition that it is best to leave your opponent with a path of retreat lest he fight to the death because he has no other choice. We could afford to lose the Viet Nam War. Israel can't afford to lose a war. They have no path of retreat.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)It is the Palestinians who have nowhere to go.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Do you think an invading army is going to stop at the Green Line , especially Hamas whose goal is to liberate all of Palestine?
Hamas, imho, is playing the long game. They want to make it so unpleasant the Israelis will leave. But this presumes they have some place to go.
And the long game is a long time, longer than our lifetimes, that's for sure.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)First, Hamas is not a significant player at this time. They are the end result of the radicalization of some Palestinians. If Israel made a just and honest peace with the Palestinians, Hamas would wither away.
Second, the Israelis will remain the dominant military in the region for a long, long time. There will be no invading army from Palestine.
Yes, Hamas is playing the long game, as it Israel. But Hamas will not
last if there is a vibrant Palestinian state.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)You make it sound as though the Palestinians woke up one day and went 'Not much happening today. Why don't we just go and start unprovoked attacks on Israel for no reason at all even though they've always been the bestest neighbours anyone could possibly have!' The reality is that they've been living under Israeli occupation for many decades and have a right to resist, just not a right to kill civilians (a lesson Israel could learn as well)...
Might Makes Right is a very, uh, neocon way of thinking. Did you feel the same way about the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? Or past history where the aggressors have been vastly superior military forces? Coz I can think of a few that you really wouldn't want to be saying they 'cry when they get their asses kicked'.
MFM008
(19,776 posts)horribly murdered. Im sure there is a lot of crying going on. These are war crimes and Israel will never be considered in the same light again.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)from the futile attempts at resistance from those under its cruel boot heel.
Israel wants to grab as much Palestinian land as possible, but not so fast that the rest of the world steps in to stop it. Slow motion ethnic cleansing has worked for them so far. Of course, the Palestinians from time to time react to the daily outrages placed upon them by Israelis and Israel must defend itself from any such push-back. Any occupying tyrant does the same thing.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In Gaza?
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)But the West Bank is where the real target lies.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know some have suggested it, but I really do not see that happening.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)1. Some israeli soldiers and bulldozers show up at your house, kick you out and raze it to the ground.
2. They retreat.
3. Without a house, you go somewhere else.
4. The land is now essentially abandoned.
5. A settler shows up in a camper aaaaaaaaaaand your land is now israeli territory.
What do you think why Israel keeps destroying palestinian crops in the Westbank over and over again?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is the land grab a different issue from what is going on in Gaza?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Because neither side is willing to accept a treaty where it feels it's worse off.
* Israel (well, the cranky old men who form its government) wants to be a jewish state. This is a response to the genocide of WWII, when a huge part of jewish community-life was wiped out. I don't remember who wrote the article, but it was from a Jew and he said, that becoming apostate won't cause other Jews to expel you from the jewish community. But if you openly declare that you don't support the state of Israel politically, then you become an outcast.
* Religiously extremist Jews want all the land that belonged to the jewish kingdoms (Israel and Judea) in the Torah again to belong to the Jews. That's why they want all of the land, including the Westbank.
* The Palestinians want to return to the land of their ancestors.
* Their hatred is a response to the land-theft that allowed the founding of Israel and that continues with government-sanctioned illegal(!) means to this day. Those israeli bulldozers razing entire villages? They have zero legal basis to do that! And the Palestinians can't get recourse in court, so what other choice do they have than violence?
Israel wants peace, but they can't compromise due to the trauma and for religious reasons.
The Palestinians want peace, but they want retribution for what Israel has done to them.
The only glimmer of hope I see is that the new generations of Israelis are less religious and at least those outside of the fascist media-bubble are more liberal. Once the scarred old warriors are no longer in charge, I guess the odds for peace will increase.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm not sure I agree with your points though. For instance, I'm not sure that "The Palestinians want to return to the land of their ancestors". I think that most Palestinians would be happy to live a few kilometers away from the land of their ancestors as long as they can do so without interference from Israel. That is to say, with a functional autonomous Palestinian state. Much like the religious extremists you site among the Israeli Jews, there are religious extremists among the Muslim Palestinians who would like to see all of the land (including what is currently Israel) as an Islamic state, but for the most part, I think Palestinians would be happy with an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza.
In terms of where the hatred and violence come from. The bulldozers you talk about are in the West Bank, not Gaza. The settlements are in the West Bank, there are none in Gaza. Yet, in spite of this, the violence has come primarily from Gaza (where there are no settlements) and not the West Bank (where there are many). Do you have any insights into why there is this seemingly incongruous situation between the two territories?
I also, sadly, do not share your perspective on the new generation of Israelis. I think they are actually more religious and less liberal. The more secular liberal-minded Israelis do not reproduce at anywhere near the rate as the religious and conservative ones do.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)... just have to take it when some idiot starts shooting at them? Nope.
Does Israel jsut have to take Hamas missles being fired at them even though they habe the iron dome? Nope.
Hamas could easily fire their missles from bombed out areas that are free of civilians, but they prefer a high casualty rate.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)have to lie their whilst they starve, are denied access to water and sanitation, and are treated as less than dirt?
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)itself.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Israel should just accept rockets raining down on them? The reality is if hamas laid down their weapons, they'd have peace. If Israel lays down their weapons, they'd be destroyed. It's right there in the hamas charter.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)to see Israel destroyed. I'm a bit depressed reading many of the replies on this forum.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)One where the far left doesn't insist they hold the majority of American's opinion on this issue.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)If Israel actually tried to make a just and fair peace with the Palestinians, there would be peace. The Oslo accords actually started that process, but right wing Israelis killed Rabin and then scuttled the Oslo accords, making peace impossible.
The Saudi proposal would have brought peace and acceptance of Israel by all parties, but again Israel totally dismissed the Saudi's offer.
The tell, the clear proof, Israel doesn't really want peace, but instead the land is the settlements. They represent ethnic cleansing, not peace offerings.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)because they don't want peace. How lovely to see so many try and revise history.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)To claim Israel did it for Peace is the biggest crock of baloney in the world. And quit projecting. It is you who is attempting to revise history.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The biggest complaint is the occupation. The Gazans were given every opportunity to live peacefully side by side with Israel - there was no blockade -another complaint that the Palestinian leadership (read: terrorist hamas) has nobody but themselves to blame for. It simply amazes me how so many just want to pretend rockets raining down on them is something they would tolerate. The Palestinian leadership has failed their people over and over again - stealing their money - buying weapons and building tunnels instead of lives - and you want to blame Israel. What a joke.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)From Wikipedia:
The Passover massacre[1] was a suicide bombing carried out by Hamas[2] at the Park Hotel in Netanya, Israel on 27 March 2002, during a Passover seder. Thirty civilians were killed in the attack and 140 were injured. It was the deadliest attack against Israelis during the Second Intifada.
In the evening of 27 March 2002, a Palestinian suicide bomber disguised as a woman approached the hotel carrying a suitcase which contained powerful explosives. The suicide bomber managed to pass the security guard at the entrance to a hotel, then he walked through the lobby passing the reception desk and entered the hotel's crowded dining room. At 19:30 pm (GMT+2) the suicide bomber detonated the explosive device he was carrying. The force of the explosion instantly killed 28 civilians and injured about 140 people, of whom 20 were injured severely. Two of the injured later died from their wounds. Some of the victims were Holocaust survivors.[3][4][5] Most of the victims were senior citizens (70 and over). The oldest victim was 90 and the youngest was 20 years old. A number of married couples were killed, as well as a father together with his daughter. One of the victims was a Jewish tourist from Sweden who was visiting Israel for Passover
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Massacre
The Hamas spokesman, incidentally, said: "We will never recognize the Arab initiative"
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)By using that as an excuse to reject the Saudi plan, the Israelis did what they always do--look for an excuse to avoid peace that would cost them the land they covet.
Hamas was a fringe group within the Palestinian community then. The Palestinian Authority, with a popular peace plan in hand would have had little trouble removing Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians were not Hamas supporters then.
By not taking the Saudi deal, the Israelis insured Hamas would grow in power--which is what the Israeli right cynically wanted all along. That gives them the lightning rod to hold up and claim "peace is not possible because they want to destroy us."