A Question

[H2O Man]

A while back, I heard a talking head on television say: “Isis is no bad that even al Qaeda despises them.” And I remember thinking, “gosh,” when I heard that. Because for about a full decade, al Qaeda was definitely the most evil, deadly, vicious collection of mean people in the history of the human race. I mean, there aren’t many enemies who are so evil, deadly, vicious, and mean that almost the entire American public was happy to have strong and heroic leaders -- and I’m talking Bush-Cheney -- destroy the Constitution of the United States, in order to protect us.

I mean, al Qaeda hated us for our freedoms. So we submitted those freedoms to Bush and Cheney. And now, Isis hates us. Obviously, they can’t hate us for our freedoms now. So, like, what is their problem? In my quest to find the answer to that question, I have continued to watch and read the news. I took special interest in the experts, almost all of whom were soon saying, “Isis is so terrible, that even al Qaeda hates the.”

Now, I’m not the type of guy who would enjoy having any religious fanatic chop my head off. That just seems unpleasant to me. And while I enjoy talking/ listening to other people, including those who hold different opinions or beliefs than me, I’m not particularly interested in hearing out a religious fanatic who cuts other people’s heads off. If they cut their own head off, then maybe I’d be curious to hear their explanation of why they opted to do such a thing.

So, I’m good with the bit about Isis and al Qaeda being bad guys. Very bad guys. But I still haven’t heard anything that proves that Isis is so bad, that even al Qaeda hates them. Instead, I’ve heard more and more talking heads on my television repeating that.

Now, I know that before they changed the name of their team to “Isis,” some of them were known as “al Qaeda in Iraq.” That was the name our politicians and media gave them, though. It wasn’t like they came up with that name, and then took a vote. I suspect Bush-Cheney called them that, in part because the real al Qaeda wasn’t in Iraq (they were in the Saudi and Pakistani intelligence). But, if there wasn’t any WMD or al Qaeda in Iraq, the American public might have questioned what the heck we were doing there. And if they knew the answer to that, they might actually have been less inclined to hand in their constitutional rights.

So, now we know that Isis is extra-evil, so much so that al Qaeda hates them. It’s one of those lines (almost left the “n” out) that prepares the American public that we absolutely need to attack them. For humanitarian reasons. We must! And to prevent their attacking us. We must! And to protect the American energy executives now inhabiting a city in northern Iraq.

Must we?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. Erect Bogeyman, wave flag, declare we need protection, give more money to the MIC.

Works every time.

[H2O Man]

16. Right!

Thanks!

[Enthusiast]

49. That is the same impression I get.

[elleng]

2. No, H2O Man, we must not.

Clark: ISIS is forcing a 'moment of truth'

America was rightly shocked by the brutal, videotaped murder of American journalist James Foley.

But we should not have been surprised. The Islamic State, as the jihadist group calls itself, has murdered, raped and savaged its way across borders in the Mideast and into the headlines as the latest terrorist foe from the region.

Foley's murder not only gives terrorist stature to ISIS but also, if it draws U.S. ground troops into the fight, will have given ISIS a recruiting bonanza. So the U.S. response requires, not just a set of airstrikes in revenge, but serious strategic calculation.

The U.S. must build a coordinated regional response -- diplomatic, economic and military -- with ground troops from our regional allies and friends, and with possible U.S. support with intelligence, logistics and airstrikes. But we cannot fight this war for our Islamic friends in the region. . .

The U.S. can use diplomacy and economic assistance, and it can strike using airpower, or special forces, to reinforce the efforts of our allies, but we cannot fight a religious war as proxies for our Islamic friends in the region.

The Mideast is approaching its moment of truth, particularly for Saudi Arabia. Having exported and promoted extremist Sunni religious ideology, Saudi Arabia must face up to the threat posed by its own, even more extremist progeny. It must summon the courage to take a firm stand now, before ISIS becomes even stronger.

For the U.S. there is nothing to be gained by delay. We must work urgently, behind the scenes, to shape an effective regional response, in coordination with our friends and allies, now.

http://www.kesq.com/news/clark-isis-is-forcing-a-moment-of-truth/27744016

edit: Posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016100884

[H2O Man]

17. It's our oil.

They're trying to steal our oil. Why, that's worse than al Qaeda.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Covering all of our bases, no matter which group we end up attacking, or both....

...it will have been the right thing to do.

Because they're all just awful, one group even worse than the last.

Except when they're not.



Reagan once said of the contras in Nicaragua:

"the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers"

And some of us remember the Iran Contra scandal. It's likely that he'd have said the same of the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan.

[H2O Man]

18. Oh, beautiful!

You nailed it.

[KoKo]

22. omg....I never knew that... Thanks!

John McCain proudly photo oping his meeting with ISIS or what became ISIS, Bush II with Bandar and his crowd...but, I didn't know that about Reagan..

[scarletwoman]

39. Edited subject line: Reagan met with the Mujahadeen but the quote is about the Contras in Nicaragua.

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:24 PM - Edit history (1)

I personally remember it, since I paid attention to politics then just like I pay attention now.

In Central America, Reagan Remains A Polarizing Figure

<snip>
The United States also organized Nicaragua's contra guerrillas, who fought that country's revolutionary Sandinista government. Reagan referred to contras as "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers" and the United States spent $1 billion on them; the fighting in Nicaragua killed as many as 50,000 people. Honduras was a staging ground for U.S. Nicaraguan operations. (my bold)

I SO despise internet "memes".

[NYC_SKP]

43. Excellent clarification, thanks!

I wouldn't doubt that he'd have expressed the same thought during the Afghanistan war against Russia, toward the Afghan Mujahideen, however.

It's a shame that the image that came up in a Google search was inaccurate in the caption used.

[scarletwoman]

44. Yeah, that picture has been spread around quite a lot, unfortunately.

It turned up in a DU post a couple of months ago or so, and I posted a correction then, too. I just really dislike such misinformation getting spread around.

The thing is - as I said - I LIVED through those years, I remember very well exactly when Reagan said those words, and the exact context in which he said them. It was a speech to Congress when he was trying to get them to appropriate more money for the Contras. Congress refused, and that's when the whole business of secretly selling arms to Iran got started - what is now known as the Iran/Contra "scandal".

Additionally, there was no Taliban in those days. The Afghans in that photo were, as you said, Mujahadeen, along with two Pakistanis. But the Taliban did not form until some years later.

[former9thward]

47. No, Reagan did not meet with the Taliban.

The did not even exist until the early 90s. He left office in Jan. 1989.

[scarletwoman]

55. You are correct - I misspoke (miswrote?)!

I actually brought up the fact that it wasn't the Taliban in the photo in my post #44, but I should have also corrected my subject line in this post, too - I just didn't think of it at that point. Thank you for your correction!

[former9thward]

45. That picture has been debunked so many times.

The Taliban did not even exist until the early 90s, long after Reagan left office.

[NYC_SKP]

46. Misleading image removed, reply edited.

Hope that helps. Let's please not threadjack an important post. Next time please try a PM.

[Enthusiast]

50. Reagan really wasn't very well informed.

That's the impression I get, anyway.

[alsame]

4. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

[sabrina 1]

5. You're not the only one wondering about this 'new, much meaner, more brutal remember the

the spate of beheadings in 2004, right after we found out about the torture program which so horrified us we as a nation were supposed to forget our horror at our own torturers and decide that it was necessary after all. Then we heard no more about these brutal tactics. Did they STOP? No one ever told us.

I remember the 'costumes' and the scary 'training videos' and the 'flags', so well coordinated, 'made in China' maybe? Definitely seemed like a Hollywood set to many of us on the Left. And then we learned about our PR Corps, people like the Rendon Group eg.

And along with these grotesque images came the 'security experts'. Almost like a script. And the 'military experts', all telling us stuff about these 'terrorists' that could scare the daylights out of anyone, well, anyone who didn't question any of it. Which we on the Left DID. And we got SOME answers.

War IS Grotesque. Innocent people get blown to bits.

I blame Cheney/Bush for all of this, right up to the murder of Foley. THEY are responsible, and so are all those who fell for their lies, or knew they were lying and went along anyhow.

And since we've been at war to 'end terror' for over a decade now, and apparently, SEE ISIS, have failed miserably, it seems to me we should get it. More bombs isn't going to 'end terror'.

No, more bombs WON'T end terror. ISIS IS PROOF OF THAT. What? Did they think we would say: Hey, we need to go in there and BOMB the s&^t out them, THAT'S the way to END TERROR??

I guess they did ... and we probably will, sadly.

[KoKo]

19. Were you here on DU for the "Fat Osama, Skinny Osama" Latest Video Debate?

Last edited Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:07 PM - Edit history (3)

I remember what you do about the spate of beheadings but do you remember the Osama Video Releases? DU'ers started to joke because the videos always seemed to show a different Osama. I checked archives and found this thread...but, there were more and photos of the differences were posted. Not sure if they copy through from the archives.

I'm wondering if our "PTB Propaganda Machine" thinks we don't remember all the false reports from that time....or, maybe they think a new generation will be incited to war with these latest threats and beheading (as tragic as that is). And, with Michael Gorden still doing his propaganda at NYT while his fellow Co-Propagandist link to the Pentagon, Judith Miller, is now out of the picture.

We have a right to be skeptical...because we were fooled so badly once before..

Here's a post about Osama's changing appearances from our DU Wayback Machine.

I wish I could access the varying photos of him that DU'ers posted at the time.

---------------------

Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 04:59 PM
Original message
BREAKING: Bin Laden reportedly to release video on 9/11

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM by Junkdrawer
Al-Qaida leader will address U.S. on 6th anniversary of attacks, group says

BREAKING NEWS

Updated: 22 minutes ago
CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden will be addressing the American people on the sixth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks with a new video, Al-Qaida's media arm announced, according to SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Islamist Web sites.

The organization's announcement showed a still from the upcoming video that portrayed bin Laden addressing the camera. His beard, which in previous messages had been streaked with gray, was entirely dark.Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 04:59 PM
Original message
BREAKING: Bin Laden reportedly to release video on 9/11

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM by Junkdrawer
Al-Qaida leader will address U.S. on 6th anniversary of attacks, group says

BREAKING NEWS

Updated: 22 minutes ago
CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden will be addressing the American people on the sixth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks with a new video, Al-Qaida's media arm announced, according to SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Islamist Web sites.

The organization's announcement showed a still from the upcoming video that portrayed bin Laden addressing the camera. His beard, which in previous messages had been streaked with gray, was entirely dark.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20629354 /





...You say that gray is making you less frightening....
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of COURSE he is! RIGHT before the 9/11 anniversary!

Will it be Fat Osama or Skinny Osama?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks to digital technology, they're resurrecting Young Osama...

He had WAY better ratings...
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Maybe he'll sing a duet with today's Osama, like when Natalie and Nat King Cole sang Unforgettable.

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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder if we'll see Fat Osama with the gold wedding ring.

Or, maybe they have a new actor, now.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. A week before the sixth anniversary of 9/11. SHOCKING!


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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. right on sked! duck and cover BL is on a terror binge!

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Osama wants that $50 Billion to be forked over.

The US Occupation over Iraq is good for al Q business.
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hope he doesn't wear white in this video.

That would be so tacky after Labor Day.
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's booked the same studio they used for the fake moon landings.

n/t
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. That was very funny!

Welcome to DU.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Halloween stuff comes out earlier every year. Boo!

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Osama's a has been his last video sucked. He's over the hill like Madonna was...

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM by originalpckelly
At least Madonna has managed to come back with some cool shit lately, but still he's like Madonna a couple of years ago when she was doing that weird crap.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Is this the Unrated Director's Cut Special Edition?

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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. LOL!! Does Osama have a fucking State of the Terror Organization now?



Do they really expect us to buy this shit? After everything that's happened and all that they've done? REALLY?

I wonder whether it's Fat Osama or Thin Osama?
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. yes, they REALLY DO expect us to "keep believing"...I do

believe, I do believe, I do believe.....this the ENTIRE Bush/Cheney Admin, just keep believing you fools and we'll just keep on killing and stealing.
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partylessinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. The plane, the plane --------------- oh, sorry, terra , terra, terra

See the latest Osama Video brought to you by RoveProductions.

Shiver and shake, my lovelies.



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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. Oh, how odd. Just when General Petraeus was about to release

his edited report. A skeptic might wonder if someone had been holding back the Bin Laden tape to release at the same time. But I'm sure that our noble administration would never do such a thing.
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. Well they

do have to remind us how dangerous he (UBL) still is, you know, so that when Pertraeus tells us we are about to turn the corner on winning and have to keep fighting them over there for the next 15 years. Makes perfect sense to your typical freeper, scared that they will follow us here.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. expected. He's got a CD coming out. I expect he'll tour, too! Maybe open for Bruce.

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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Right.

That's why they went after him instead of Saddam Hussein.

I'm sure BushInc. probably meets with Bin Laden frequently and they all
have drinks together and just laugh at the rest of us.
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agent46 Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. Naaaah...I'll pass

Gonna wait for the special edition DVD box set "Osama!" to come out this Christmas.


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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. No Play For Mister Gray! n/t

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. LOL


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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. And just in the nick of time to be the top story on ABC/CBS/NBC Evening News.

What a coinkydink.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. just for osama.....you'd think junior had used up all his favors by now

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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. He's going to announce he's running against Fred Thompson!!!

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. He may win...depends on how pretty his wives are....

Success is measured by the appearance of trophy wives....
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. so THIS is what Ari Fleisher's PR firm has worked up


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Maggie_May Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ok I am not biting at all

His last taped message before 2004 election was blurred and you couldn't see him at because it wasn't him.The Repuks wanted you to be scared and vote for that asshole. Now this video his beard is all dark what the hell would he dye his beard for. Not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. I don't think he still alive and I think the administration wants us to keep thinking he is so they can pull their propaganda shit.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. You mean this guy?

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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. People will believe whatever they want... It doesn't matter...

The P*TuS himself might puton a fake beard and pretend to be OBL. Actors may not be around now with his declining support.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bin who?

...never heard of him...
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. "i don't spend that much time thinking about him" (not verbatim)

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:36 PM by djohnson
Be careful, that's close to *'s trademarked passage:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22i+don%27t+spend+that+...

Edit: every single hit brings up a reference to ass.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
30. Jeez. It's bad enough they report non-news, now it's future non-news.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. PHOTOS: (Can't make this shit up)...



http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/al-qaeda-an...

(tip 'o the hat to DUer merh)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20629354





...You say that gray is making you less frightening....
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of COURSE he is! RIGHT before the 9/11 anniversary!

Will it be Fat Osama or Skinny Osama?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks to digital technology, they're resurrecting Young Osama...

He had WAY better ratings...
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Maybe he'll sing a duet with today's Osama, like when Natalie and Nat King Cole sang Unforgettable.

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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder if we'll see Fat Osama with the gold wedding ring.

Or, maybe they have a new actor, now.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. A week before the sixth anniversary of 9/11. SHOCKING!


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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. right on sked! duck and cover BL is on a terror binge!

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Osama wants that $50 Billion to be forked over.

The US Occupation over Iraq is good for al Q business.
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hope he doesn't wear white in this video.

That would be so tacky after Labor Day.
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american_typeculture Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's booked the same studio they used for the fake moon landings.

n/t
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. That was very funny!

Welcome to DU.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Halloween stuff comes out earlier every year. Boo!

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Osama's a has been his last video sucked. He's over the hill like Madonna was...

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM by originalpckelly
At least Madonna has managed to come back with some cool shit lately, but still he's like Madonna a couple of years ago when she was doing that weird crap.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Is this the Unrated Director's Cut Special Edition?

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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. LOL!! Does Osama have a fucking State of the Terror Organization now?



Do they really expect us to buy this shit? After everything that's happened and all that they've done? REALLY?

I wonder whether it's Fat Osama or Thin Osama?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top

katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. yes, they REALLY DO expect us to "keep believing"...I do

believe, I do believe, I do believe.....this the ENTIRE Bush/Cheney Admin, just keep believing you fools and we'll just keep on killing and stealing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top

partylessinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. The plane, the plane --------------- oh, sorry, terra , terra, terra

See the latest Osama Video brought to you by RoveProductions.

Shiver and shake, my lovelies.



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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. Oh, how odd. Just when General Petraeus was about to release

his edited report. A skeptic might wonder if someone had been holding back the Bin Laden tape to release at the same time. But I'm sure that our noble administration would never do such a thing.
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. Well they

do have to remind us how dangerous he (UBL) still is, you know, so that when Pertraeus tells us we are about to turn the corner on winning and have to keep fighting them over there for the next 15 years. Makes perfect sense to your typical freeper, scared that they will follow us here.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. expected. He's got a CD coming out. I expect he'll tour, too! Maybe open for Bruce.

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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Right.

That's why they went after him instead of Saddam Hussein.

I'm sure BushInc. probably meets with Bin Laden frequently and they all
have drinks together and just laugh at the rest of us.
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agent46 Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. Naaaah...I'll pass

Gonna wait for the special edition DVD box set "Osama!" to come out this Christmas.


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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. No Play For Mister Gray! n/t

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. LOL


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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. And just in the nick of time to be the top story on ABC/CBS/NBC Evening News.

What a coinkydink.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. just for osama.....you'd think junior had used up all his favors by now

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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. He's going to announce he's running against Fred Thompson!!!

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. He may win...depends on how pretty his wives are....

Success is measured by the appearance of trophy wives....
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. so THIS is what Ari Fleisher's PR firm has worked up


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Maggie_May Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ok I am not biting at all

His last taped message before 2004 election was blurred and you couldn't see him at because it wasn't him.The Repuks wanted you to be scared and vote for that asshole. Now this video his beard is all dark what the hell would he dye his beard for. Not falling for the banana in the tail pipe. I don't think he still alive and I think the administration wants us to keep thinking he is so they can pull their propaganda shit.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. You mean this guy?

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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. People will believe whatever they want... It doesn't matter...

The P*TuS himself might puton a fake beard and pretend to be OBL. Actors may not be around now with his declining support.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bin who?

...never heard of him...
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. "i don't spend that much time thinking about him" (not verbatim)

Edited on Thu Sep-06-07 05:36 PM by djohnson
Be careful, that's close to *'s trademarked passage:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22i+don%27t+spend+that+...

Edit: every single hit brin

gs up a reference to ass.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
30. Jeez. It's bad enough they report non-news, now it's future non-news.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. PHOTOS: (Can't make this shit up)...



http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/al-qaeda-an...

(tip 'o the hat to DUer merh)

[sabrina 1]

56. Yes, I remember the 'fat' Osama and the 'thin' Osama, the dark and the grey bearded

Osama. It was as if they really thought the people were so stupid they didn't need to pay for quality propaganda, any old Osama would do.

The recipe is the same. People are claiming that ISIS is WORSE than Al Queda. They must have forgotten how BAD Al Queda was, at the time.

I remember the beheadings, the death squads in Iraq, the bodies found floating in the rivers, the rivers of blood on the streets.

The bottom line is that it was for the most part, all propaganda to keep the American people in a state of fear.

I'm even hearing the same old talking points: 'Either we fight them over there, or we'll have to fight them here'. Heard it again this week.

Thanks for the links. It seems like yesterday.

War without end, that was the neocon dream. Looks like they are going to get their wish because there doesn't seem to be anyone who can stop it.

[R.Quinn]

6. So much fear-mongering going on in the media.

This is like a recurring nightmare.

[phantom power]

7. Somehow the answer is always "we have to go back in"

No, this time it's really bad, don't you see?

And next time, it will also be really bad, not like the last time, don't you see?

[MH1]

8. The people running ISIS do not hate us.

They love the money they are making from their war, kidnapping, and recruiting, based on convincing other people that we are to be hated.

No, I suspect they are very glad their "America" bogeyman exists.

Just like our own war profiteers are glad that groups like ISIS exist.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

9. The programming of America is at full throttle. The propaganda is rife on MSNBC today.

I don't know about the other "news" networks, but so far today on MSNBC it's been wall-to-wall. Mrs Greenspan had Kirby from Defense on and it was ALL about the threat of ISIS, including the chyron that said: ISIS A Direct Threat To America and ISIS An Imminent Threat To Homeland.

"Homeland" being used a LOT the past week or so, and moreso this week. It's almost as the the Mike Brown story forced the propagandists to stand down due to its distraction from foriegn events and they now must double-down to catch up and meet their "imminent" schedule.

All day: ISIS threat is imminent, American ISISes coming to kill us all. WAR! WAR! WAR!

[jtuck004]

10. Haven't learned the lesson yet...

#t=47

Maybe one day there will be a party again to carry that message, instead of how good it is for us to make bankers wealthy at our expense.

[Voice for Peace]

11. if we don't watch out, we'll soon be arming al Qaeda to defeat ISIS.

:/

[rurallib]

15. bringing back the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" days

[sabrina 1]

40. I think they've told us so many stories, THEY can't remember who is who so you may

be right.

Remember Al Zarqawi eg? The one-legged man according to Cheney who was THEIR proof that AQ WAS in Iraq.

He, according to Cheney, Condi et al, was wounded and went to Iraq to receive treatment. He thought we did not know that Saddam HATED and FEARED AQ, but that's another story.

Once the war started, Al Zarqawi wasn't mentioned much. For a while.

But soon we heard about him again. We had failed to 'get' OBL in Afghanistan and besides, Bush seemed to have lost interest in him. So we needed a bigger, angrier, more terrifying reason to stay in Iraq.

Suddenly Zarqawi replaced OBL as the biggest threat to our 'national security'. No one EVER saw him, not even a photo.

He was, we were told, the most dangerous man in the world.

Over the course the next few years, we 'killed' Zarqawi, about nine times! It become one of the biggest jokes of that tragic war. 'Have we killed Zarqawi yet today'?

Finally they decided it was time to totally 'kill' him once and for all. People were beginning to ask questions.

The media went wild that day. 'Zarqawi Dead'. Right wingers cheered their 'hero' Bush (unlike the 'left', the 'right' totally bought the Legend of Zarqawi'. 'We Got Him! Bush is a Hero!' Faux was all over the story!

They forgot one thing however, they forgot all about the fact that Zarqawi had only one leg, well, according to them. So when they were asked how they were SURE they 'got him', they claimed he was identified by his 'tatoos'!

Oops! No mention of the missing leg. And Zarqawi didn't have tattoos.

Dan Rather had gone to Jordan to find out WHO this 'dangerous terrorist' was. He learned that he was just a petty thief who had spent some time in jail. He was not known to be affiliated with AQ, not smart enough to be any kind of 'leader'.

And then the NY Post published an off the record statement by one of our generals about Zarqawi which pretty ended the 'myth' that he was ever anything more than another 'Curveball', a nobody. The Gen said that Zarqawi was the 'most successful Psyops operation in Iraq'.

They forgot their own story about Zarqawi. They probably have forgotten much of the propaganda about AQ. So it's entirely possible we will hear that we are being joined by Al Quada now in the fight against ISIS.

So many lies, that led to so many tragic deaths.

And now we have a NEW and BETTER 'Terrorist Organization'.

[valerief]

12. al-Qaeda, ISIS, and the wheel. All inventions, but only one benefits humankind. nt

[eggplant]

13. I'm remembering the IRA bombings way back in the day.

Enemies come and enemies go, violence escalates and occasionally peaceful resolution occurs.

All I can opine about ISIS is that (to me) they seem to be an actual violent force in the Mideast, and the idea that they would have any interest in attacking US soil is up there with Saddam wanting the same thing. Propaganda.

But it is disturbing to see what amounts to significant border shuffling. This is actually quite rare, beyond long-standing back-and-forth fighting (eg, Kashmir, and unfortunately Gaza). Major boundary changing offensives seem limited to Putin and ISIS these days.

[H2O Man]

14. The IRA

were true freedom fighters.

[eggplant]

30. Heh. I knew I'd be opening a can of worms here.

I wasn't trying to equate the motives of the two groups, merely tactics. My point was that the behavior of violent groups does not have to remain a constant. It is possible for groups to come together. (My wife is partly from Ulster -- she would tell me about when she was a kid in Pittsburgh having her mother dress her in orange on St. Patrick's Day.)

[H2O Man]

31. No, not at all.

The only "worms" were those seeking to exploit the land's resources, including human beings.

Your point was well taken: "they" create monsters, and scare people. I'm not trying to pin an anti-Irish pin on you. I'm agreeing with you.

Your friend,
H2O Man

[eggplant]

32. I'M NOT SHOUTING!

http://movieclips.com/DFibf-clue-movie-im-not-shouting/96.44/111.61

Peace, brother.

[sabrina 1]

36. Yes, they were ...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Wait till America no longer cares about Islamic Terrorists....

That's when the next big threat will be aliens.

[madfloridian]

21. You eloquently put into words what I have thinking.

Just like you often do.

Thanks.

[H2O Man]

26. Thank you!

I want to say that what has been a painful day, your post brought forth grins of happiness. Thank you, very much!

[whatchamacallit]

23. al Qisis

deja vu - bogeyman - horror show - mind fuck

[lark]

24. Hell freaking NO, we don't need to go!!!

If they are so bad and dangerous, what are they doing with all America weapons? They got them in Syria, from what I've heard, from the groups that were supposedly the good guys there. Is this just a faux group to keep us at war in the middle east and keep the MIC fat and happy? If this gropu is so all fired dangerous to the entire world, why isn't Saudia Arabia and Jordan fighting them? Why is it America's job and only America's job?

Something is really off with this whole ISIS thing, even the name is suspicious.

[Zorra]

25. Yes, we must. You seem confused. "Reports that say...that something hasn't happened

are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

Do you get it now? Hopefully, this clarifying statement made by Donald Rumsfeld in 2002, outlining the absolute necessity of perpetual war, will remove all doubt from your mind about the need for the US to go to war...somewhere.

Congress understood this infallibly logical reason to go to war back in 2002. Do you think you are smarter than Congress? Wait...uh, oh yeah...scratch that last sentence; you don't need to answer that.

Now do you get it? Because Isis is double extra evil, we need to strike quickly to destabilize the status quo in Outer Mongolia, or somewhere else. For clearly, we are dealing with unknown unknowns...you know, the ones we don't know we don't know.

I trust this was helpful.

[H2O Man]

28. Beautiful!

Oh, I love it! Many thanks!

[zeemike]

27. There is an other possibility.

That none of it is real...and none of us really know.
After all all we know comes from the tube and that tube is a tool for propaganda now more than ever...and is under the control of the PTB, just as surely as in 1984.

But we should know by now that we are in a permanent state of war, and a new generation is growing up with nothing but war and fear of the evil enemy who we ourselves do not see, but is created every day on the TV in both news and entertainment.

Where all of this will lead I cannot say, but I fear for our posterity.

[Major Hogwash]

29. Evidently, you were not aware that the head imam in Saudi Arabia declared that ISIS . . .

. . . is no way a muslim group, following any teachings of the muslim faith.
When muslims declare that a group calling themselves the Muslim State are denounced by recognized leaders of the muslim church, you can pretty much be sure that they are not recognized by anyone as anything but terrorists.

The Arab street has already joined forces against ISIS.
The Arab nations have already denounced ISIS.

[Blue_Tires]

33. As far as I can tell,

What makes ISIS "different" (for lack of a better word) from AQ is:

1. Their indiscriminate wholesale killing of fellow muslims -- AQ sort of drew a line at only killing muslims who were clearly helping the western interventionists...ISIS seems to regard anyone, civilian or whoever, that isn't ISIS as an enemy...The fact that they supposedly want to take out Assad, who in theory should be a ally, is perplexing to say the least...

2. I don't know how the "sales pitch" goes, but ISIS has had a LOT more success in recruiting westerners who had never seen a warzone, and who once upon a time, seemed to have normal, everyday lives...ISIS has employed a lot of "western-style" marketing and PR techniques to spread their message, so we aren't dealing with uneducated yokels like the Taliban's rank-and-file -- There is a surprising amount of savvy and sophistication...


FWIW, as far as ideology and sheer inhumane brutality go, I'd say Boko Haram is worse than ISIS and AQ combined...But BH operates in a very remote region slaughtering people the media care little about, and they don't have ISIS's funding+resources...

If I'm wrong on any of this, please correct me, anyone...

[ProfessorGAC]

53. Your First Point Seems To Define . . .

. . .gangsters. Anyone not with us is the enemy. That sounds more like a gang of thugs than anybody with a real purpose.

GAC

[madfloridian]

34. Why is this back on page 3?

I am kicking it.

[scarletwoman]

35. I think of it as an old Johnny Carson routine:

Johnny: ISIS is so bad...

Audience: (shouting) How bad are they?

Johnny: ISIS is so bad, even Al Qaeda hates them!

Audience (and Ed McMahon): HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[sabrina 1]

41. Lol! Good one!

[morningfog]

37. This had been a long steady march to war.

It is all so obvious.

[RagAss]

38. The American Prayer...

"As it was in the beginning, it is now and ever shall be, war without end. Amen."

[suffragette]

42. The drums of war are beating ever louder - Again.

Glad to know others here are also noticing how much this reeks.

[GeorgeGist]

48. Even dear Rachel is calling out the wusses.

[Amonester]

51. There is no hope.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade.

The Dream is Over came after Imagine...

Followed by the getting murdered in the back by a(nother) gun nut.

Get it while you can.

(Won't last long now.)

They refused to listen.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. Juan Cole: Islamic State of Iraq & Levant too Extreme for al-Qaeda (Not the Onion)

By Juan Cole | Feb. 4, 2014

Ayman al-Zawahiri, now the leader of the international terrorist organization, al-Qaeda, has disavowed the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). ISIL (also called ISIS, substituting Syria for ‘Levant’) controls Falluja and part of Ramadi in Iraq, along with parts of Aleppo and its hinterland in Syria. It has been involved in a sanguinary battle with other Sunni extremist militias in northern Syria, including Jabhat al-Nusra (the Succor Front) for several weeks, which has left 2000 dead at a time when the Baath regime of Bashar al-Assad has regrouped and launched assaults on the rebels. I found the Arabic text with an Arabic web site search but am not linking for obvious reasons.

Al-Zawahiri said, “Al-Qaeda al-Jihad announces that it has no link to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. It did not create it, did not invest it with authority, did not consult with it, and did not express approval of it. Rather, al-Qaeda ordered it to stop its actions. Therefore, it is not an al-Qaeda affiliate, no organizational relationship binds the two, and al-Qaeda is not responsible for its behavior.”
...
The letter underlines what I have been saying for some time, which is that it is a mistake to see the so-called al-Qaeda affiliates as the same sort of phenomenon as core al-Qaeda. It is clear that ISIL does not have a reporting line to al-Zawahiri and has repeatedly just blown him off. The same is true of the other “affiliates.” These radical Sunnis just declare an al-Qaeda affiliation to increase the fear with which they are viewed. It isn’t organizational, and al-Zawahiri has admitted as much. That isn’t to deny that some core al-Qaeda operatives have occasionally shown up in the affiliates, or that al-Zawahiri tries to communicate to them. But he can’t give them orders. Moreover, they are interested in the ‘near enemy,’ in taking on regional leaders like Bashar al-Assad in Syria or PM Nouri al-Maliki in Iraq. With the exception of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen (AQAP), they don’t seem interested in hitting US targets, and that kind of thing seems to have tapered off in AQAP in any case.

ISIL is a nasty piece of business, a kind of religious/ political license for serial killing. So is al-Qaeda. But that the latter is embarrassed about the former is telling.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/02/islamic-levant-extreme.html

[myrna minx]

54. It reminds me of the children's song: I know an old lady who swallowed a fly -

except she was forced to buy the fly, spider, bird, cat, dog, goat, cow and horse from no-bid military contractors.

[Chan790]

57. Okay, that's a long post and I read it all...

There is a reason why IS and OG AQ hate each other...it's actually not a new hate...it goes back to when IS was AQ in Iraq (and no, we didn't give them that name, they chose it.) and their leader, Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi, asked for resources and weapons to purge Iraq of Shia and Kurds and all the same people they're killing now. AQ told them no and to concentrate on US. That led to a bit of bickering that ended with Ayman al-Zawahiri and Osama bin-Laden having Abu-Musab killed..indirectly, they tipped off US intelligence intentionally so we'd kill him for them. Since that time AQ in Iraq has slowly radicalized into IS unto the point where not only did they disregard direction on not attacking minorities in Iraq instead focusing on us, they took to attacking and killing other AQ-aligned insurgents for not being ideologically-pure enough and not also attacking religious minorities. In response, AQ recognized a different affiliate as the "only legitimate AQ affiliate in Syria and Iraq" and disowned them. That sent things around the bend and IS became actively hostile to the point of targeting leadership of that other affiliate for assassination.

(That's a fight we shouldn't get in the middle of as they might actually kill each other and solve a lot of problems for us.)

Beyond that, IS really is too anarchistic-radical as an Islamist group for other Islamist groups. For AQ, there is an agenda and compromises will be made to advance that agenda. (We may not want to reason with that...but we can reason with that.) For IS, there is only ideological purity...



Must we? (Go to war?) No.

Must we? (Pursue an agenda to curb their influence down to the point that cannot do harm?) That one is a probable qualified-yes. There are ways to combat a threat like IS that are not strictly military in nature. Designating any person funding them, no matter their connections to...say...the Saudi Royal Family, as subject to asset-seizure by OFAC would be a good start...it's not military, it doesn't put US troops in harm's way...and emptying their "checkbook" would do a good deal to curb them. They don't have a lot of ideological friends...nobody is going to give them anything they can't pay for. Dry up the well, so to speak, and they'll be dying faster than they can sustain.