There's a difference in a community and a forum.

[madfloridian]

One of the main clues that a place is becoming just another forum is the lack of respect when posters leave after years here.

We should be caring and understanding why it is happening instead posting unkind stuff about it.

Just my opinion. Two who left today were longtime posters, good ones. They should be heard respectfully. Bigtree got a PM from me when he left thanking him for his Ferguson posts. They were enlightening and well done.

To many of us this has been a community. To some it is just a place to post.

There should be room for both.

[NYC_SKP]

1. I can't tell, but can't help but wonder, how much of this is due to the jury system.

I can't even begin to get into bigtree's brain, but also can't get away from thinking that hides, or failures to hide, were behind the decision.

I tend to think it was failure to hides and I wish we and bigtree had some resolution.

Please note a question, as yet unaddressed, by bigtree in the ATA forum.

Posted some time before departure.

Very sad.

Bigtree was and will always be an asset.

The question is, why do they leave?

[madfloridian]

3. Because it wears one out to post a well-researched post...

when there are some waiting and lurking to pounce. It's tiring.

[NYC_SKP]

7. Is it the hides, or failures to hide by juries, or something else entirely?

If only we could ask them directly.

I honestly don't know, I'm not one of the folks leaving anytime soon.

Some people have left after one hide, others left for other reasons.

Who know, I'm just glad you are here, and glad I'm here, too!

[madfloridian]

9. For me...

it is knowing that no matter what I post it will be nitpicked until the thread is useless.

Which means it was probably posted in vain. Unless it got a lot of tweets, and many do. That means it is being read at least.

I always liked the mod system best myself. I thought most were fair, though of course there were a few who got heated during the primary wars of 04..but then we all did.

[ballyhoo]

21. That's what I think. A large part of decisions to leave

are based on the jury system. If one has to be so careful of what he/she posts for fear of being juried, then how much free thought is really being given? And these jury decisions based on a URL someone gives as reference where the person using it didn't even know it was taboo to use it are rather ridiculous. And there are people on this board who monitor URLs for propriety. I just don't give URLs any more with my posts, and I still don't start posts at all. There is more, but I'll get close to danger territory so best I stop. I enjoyed Big Tree's posts. I didn't always agree with him/her, but he/she always seemed to speak from the heart, and to me that is important, particularly at a time when heart-thought is being less considered in our daily lives.

[justiceischeap]

33. I think a lot of it is the jury system

When you have things that are hidden that don't seem to need to be hidden or posts alerted on that shouldn't have been alerted on or you see some people often alerted on, you know it's become more about a clash of personalities than anything else. There ARE people on DU that use the jury system to go after other people, hoping if they can achieve the goal of the "hide" rule, they can get people kicked off the board for a while. Then there's the comments that just blatantly attack people and then the Lord of the Flies takes affect and then more people gang on this one person... well, there's a lot of people lately on DU that make it suck and I always thought making DU suck was against the rules.

Then there are those that think we should worship President Obama as though he were some kind of deity. That if we somehow question his motives or policy, that the person doing the questioning isn't a true Democrat or Liberal or is a troll, etc., etc., etc.. And those folks, IMO, get too much leeway to act out like children. Though the President is a Democrat, he's also human which makes him imperfect and sometimes he does stupid shit and as citizens, we should call out that stupid shit. Anyway... yeah, I think there are a lot of reasons that people are leaving but some of the things I outlined above I think play a major role.

I also think removing the META forum brought a lot of the META issues into GD. It was nice to have a place where people could go and "fight it out" so it wouldn't spill over into GD. Since META has gone, GD is now that place that people fight it out.

[DonCoquixote]

76. and some on the other side as well

"Then there are those that think we should worship President Obama as though he were some kind of deity. That if we somehow question his motives or policy, that the person doing the questioning isn't a true Democrat or Liberal or is a troll, etc., etc., etc.. "

However, the point is not whether or not you like or dislike Obama/insert figure here, the point is that personal attacks, which are AGAINST THE TERMS OF SERVICE, have not only become perimitted, but enocuraged, up to and including outright ABUSE of the jury system. To paraphrase Voltaire, we need to be able to geuinely believe and exopress that we think a viewpoint is wrong, but defend a person's right to express that point. That has not happened, period, and yes, the Jury system is a major part of that, becaus eit allows the brave soul "No comments given" to keep tiping the scales 3-4.

Practical reform ideas:
Reinforce once and for all that while you can be intense, even offensive, you cannot attack your fellow forum members personally. You can post and say "Obama is a (fill in profanity here), but you cannot say "Forum member Z is an Obama Bot/Insert insult here." Yes, this would go for the people who geuinly love Obama, but the kminute they break out the equally nstupid insults (Paulbot/Puma/etc.) they would get penlized

This is somethign that needs to be BEYOND THE JURY SYSTEM, as too many times, the Jurists have shown they do not give a DAMN about the Tos. Too many of these creeps will then get on that NASTY site that rhymes with "obstructionist" and high five each other that they got seabeyond banned AGAIN. They will then celebrate by posting some of the "women are evil and that is why they need to obey us nice guy white males" crap that IS tolerated on that site, but should NOT be done HERE!

My second idea is to question ananymous Jury posting, or at the very least, demand that whoever renders a verdict MUST ADD AT LEAST A ONE SENTENCE EXPLANATION. Frankly, if someone cannot put in a sentence, they have no buisness passign sentences. Even anonymous Juries in rl have what they say documented to prevent any sort of bribery/ratfucking, where we learn that Juror number one said that cops were good, etc. We may never know who Juror number one was, but we have a good idea what they thought.

[BrotherIvan]

11. I believe it was this

When he posted criticism of the President on torture apologia, he became a target. The one post of his that really got to me is when he wanted Obama to speak up about Ferguson and they attacked him mercilessly. He kept posting his picture and with an open heart and integrity, stated that he was a kind and committed person and not all those things they were accusing him of. It was like a pack of jackals. And it seemed to happen about once a day after that even though his threads on Ferguson were the most up to the moment and introspective.

[madfloridian]

12. Yes, it got vicious. Frankly, I don't blame him.

I know of many others here who are longtime posters who do NOT attack others....and they are thinking of doing the same. Me among them. I did leave for a year once.

[BrotherIvan]

14. Dissatisfaction often leads to new organization

If you catch my drift. That would be great rather than just butting heads with the same people over and over for basically the same singular reason. I come here for some news and information, but mostly to waste time. I always looked forward to your threads and bigtree's as well.

[redruddyred]

20. sorry but does this sort of thing really bother you so much?

I don't mean to be one of the "grow a thicker hide" insensitive jerks, but omg try spending an hour on reddit! I've spent years on the internet and I'm well-used to total strangers saying terrible things about me. I mean, it's utterly meaningless, and should be taken as such.

[BrotherIvan]

23. Every person has their own perspective. Thanks for sharing yours.

Most places are just as meaningless as you described. But even for the few years I have been hanging out here, you get to know people's thoughts and values by reading them every day. Bigtree in particular really struck me because he had been a very big supporter of President Obama. Lots of positive posts and pictures to celebrate the President or First Lady. But then when he posted criticism of the President's statement about torture, those who had always been his biggest supporters turned on him.

That's why DU is a little different from Reddit. You may or may not like that. Some posters throw out worthless snark, but some really do take the time to write out thoughtful arguments, to educate, to discuss deeply. I appreciate the work that many posters do. I'm not a long-timer with lots of posts like many people here, but I do appreciate some of the very well educated people who post here.

[redruddyred]

25. hah, no worries on that count.

not a fan of reddit, not at all.

yeah, I feel like it's okay to disagree with someone. why would this be seen as an act of betrayal? kind of scared at the thought that so many DUers are so easily offended; it makes me afraid to express myself fully.

[Gormy Cuss]

48. It's not the disagreement, it's the uncivil disagreement.

Most DUers aren't easily offended. They're just tired of having intelligent conversations derailed by ad hominem attacks, RW propaganda, and other nonsense.
They're tired of seeing posts hidden for minor personal attacks like "You're a poopy head" while racist, sexist, or homophobic posts are allowed to stand as a difference of opinion.

[madfloridian]

49. ....

[redruddyred]

59. you have made your point.

thanks much.

all that said, I'm super-impressed that Duers are respectful as they are. I think a lot of people are kind of resigned to all internet forums ever being full of jerks, and I like to mention this one as a counterpoint.

[JTFrog]

31. He also had a history of NOT being an Obama supporter.

The 2008 primaries were particularly nasty here. I always had the feeling that some folks might have just changed their posting style for a while in order to keep their posting privileges.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. I think that permitting personal attacks is what caused this all

DU has become a perpetual steel-cage death match.

[madfloridian]

4. ....

Feels like it sometimes.

[joshcryer]

18. When people can post snark as alter ego personas, yeah.

Slighting anyone who dares disagree as third way, union busing, right wing, CIA lackey, stuff I've been called in recent weeks, etc. It's quite difficult not to respond in kind as you well know.

[davidpdx]

29. Can I call you Joshy?

[joshcryer]

32. That'll be Sir Joshy to you, tyvm.

[davidpdx]

34. ....

[MannyGoldstein]

47. Can you point to some examples?

Thanks.

[pnwmom]

58. That would be calling out. Are you trying to set a trap? n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

61. Since callouts haven't been against the rules for some time,

E.g., http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5184352

it wouldn't be a very good trap.

[madfloridian]

67. Trust me, I know. Call outs are fine and dandy here now.

I know it very well. Several frequently post old old old old posts of mine to try to negate what I post now. One linked to a post from 2005.



Yep...call outs are just fine now.

[MannyGoldstein]

69. I look forward to posts in the future

"Remember the time when Manny tried to set a trap but stupidly didn't even realize that call outs were legal?" Because that's the only reasonable conclusion.

[madfloridian]

74. ....

As people link back to my old old old old posts to play gotcha....they also remind me they are doing it because it is legal.

They seem to think they have to do it because it is legal.

[joshcryer]

60. Trivial, Third-Way Manny is easily linked:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/~MannyGoldstein

You literally add your alter ego posts to your journal. Then there's a trivial Google search for your nickname and "TWM" as you are happy to sign your snark posts with it.

[MannyGoldstein]

62. That part's easy, I wanted a link to this part:

"Slighting anyone who dares disagree as third way, union busing, right wing, CIA lackey,"

Thanks

[joshcryer]

64. I didn't accuse you of that.

I was speaking generally. I think the alter ego snark posts are used as a trampoline for harassment and insulting other DUers.

[MannyGoldstein]

65. They simply call out hypocrisy and silliness

Without pointing to specific people on DU. It's a "if the shoe fits..." kind of thing. Dumb ideas deserve to be ridiculed, I think.

Only on one occasion do I remember TWM parroting someone specific to cause indigestion, and it got locked. There may have been other times that I'm not remembering, but if TWM's being unnecessarily mean to people rather than to ideas, I'd appreciate examples.

[joshcryer]

66. The shoe never fits, though.

It's far too broad of a brush. I literally cannot think of any DUer who holds the ideologies espoused by Third-Way Manny's character. Literally not one DUer whose ideologies I have pinned down. I don't even think such a character exists in the political sphere as a whole, because TWM actually, ironically, exhibits a "Third Way" uncompromising mentality. That actually goes against the idea of the Third Way approach which exists in reality to get the Progressive Caucus and the New Democrats and the Republican Study Committee to meet in the middle!

TWM isn't necessarily mean, just, sly and devilish and allows others, who really are nasty, to pull the punches and innuendos (never of course directly calling someone something). When someone calls the President a peace of shit used car salesman his supporters are inflicted, because logically that means we buy from a piece of shit used car salesman and are idiots. In fact, accusing Obama supporters of being "played like fools" is a common theme in these arguments (can't have a discussion demeaning the other side without taking a paternalistic tone).

[MannyGoldstein]

70. Here's the latest TWM post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025443100

Does that not fit a group of DUers? (Other than the Clapper thing - that was just for fun.) They won't say it does, but it fits their actions, no? Do I need to find examples?

[joshcryer]

75. I can't think of one.

TWM's statements there are completely absolutist. I would say most people who "agree" with Rand Paul don't actually know what they're agreeing with and that's why I make it a point to clarify the Pauls' positions on things, because they're not what they seem.

Otherwise it's fine to agree with the spirit of what people perceive as Rand Paul's positions and I think most people if not all who call out "Paul supporters" hold the same perceived positions (ie, they're anti-war, too, but know that Rand Paul isn't really).

I should point out that people perceive a Paul bash as a bash on them, because they agree with Paul on something. That's not the intent. Paul is not an ally.

As far as the Hillary statement goes, there are 3 DUers, only 3, I can name who support Hillary. Sid, msanthrope, and hrmjustin. That's it. Maybe there are a few others (McCammy I think is how their nick is spelled?). But most DUers don't want her as a first or second or third choice. I'd place her fourth. So it's just mind numbing because, here's the stickler, even those who would have her as a last choice, they still feel attacked, like "Paul apologists," because they have no malice or intent there.

The biggest difference is that they will openly disagree with Hillary on issues they disagree with her on, but the "Paul apologists" (people who agree with a perceived overlap with their views and Ron / Rand Paul), are too afraid to come out and say they disagree. Especially when it's pointed out that the Paul's views are completely and utterly incompatible with progressive views. They simply refuse to admit it when it's utterly plain as day.

Clinton says she wants equal pay for equal work for all genders. Big deal, right? That's plain as day. What she says that's what she means.

Paul says he wants to go after the banks. Hell yeah! Except what he means is that he wants to eradicate the federal reserve completely. Arrest tens of thousands of robo callers. And let most of the bankers walk because most of the verifiable illegal activities were done at a lower white collar level. Oh, and the small guy doesn't have billions that they can use to tie up the courts for years, ala Ken Lay (went 6 years). The Pauls have no intention to actually arrest a damn single banker. And they know it's an easy commitment because they will be immune from prosecution in just a few more years. In fact, the Pauls would want to repeal things like Dodd-Frank! Making the actions that the bankers did more legal! It's literally the exact opposite of what you think they're saying!

[PragmaticLiberal]

77. "Dumb ideas deserve to be ridiculed, I think. "

Personally, I don't think dumb ideas deserve to be ridiculed per se.

I think you explain to the person why you think their ideas are flawed but ridiculed? Nah.


Just my opinion.

[TexasProgresive]

28. Funny, that's the rare thing I vote hide

When I"m on a jury. If I were on a jury to judge the continuation of the jury system I would vote kill it. The only way I could see it work is bring back the moderator system. When someone alerts the moderators can send it to a jury if they deem the alert has merit.

I have served on 60+ juries and I would guess that 95% of those had no merit and of the remaining 5% maybe 1% was strong enough to hide. And yet some 50% of the total were voted to hide.

[davidpdx]

35. That's the problem, it is based on opinion

and most people's opinion is going to be way different than yours.

The number of juries I've served in isn't on my profile. I'm not sure what the hell happened to it.

I suppose if I had time and I was dead board I could go back and see what the jury opinions were in each one I've served on. Problem is I have no recollection of how I voted. (I maybe that's a good thing)

Edit: I found it, I've served on 100 exactly.

[LittleBlue]

5. Just like a community, some neighbors will be really sad

when someone leaves, others will be happy, and some won't care because they really didn't know the Smiths that well.

Bigtree, if you're reading this, I'll miss you.

[Skittles]

6. oh fuck those selfish pricks who don't give a damn

ya know?

[raven mad]

15. +1000

[BlueCaliDem]

8. I've noticed that, too. The few jeering

sarcastic, and denigrating posts that followed were heartbreaking - especially after everything bigtree has contributed to make DU such an informative place.

If I want juvenile jeering and denigration, I'd go to Yahoo forums or YouTube which is 95% Teahadist territory these days, and where there are nasty posts that are allowed to remain while they congregate in groups to vote your post down - as the obstinate children they are who won't tolerate other points of view and excoriate anyone who dares to post them.

Now we see that even DU is not safe from Teahadist-like posts, disrespecting and patronizing long-time posters who are leaving because it's just become too much to take being ganged-up on and "alerted" on for the dumbest things and zero ToS violations.

It's sad really.

[madfloridian]

10. .....

[The Straight Story]

13. 2004. Guess me and others took a wrong turn on the way to Albuquerque

Been here over 10 years and shared a lot, not just online but on the phone/fb/etc with folks I have met here. DU was a place for support in bad times, not to mention good times. It was a place to meet up with others. A place I came to many times to vent to like minded people on some things.

People helping people - in addition to everything else. A community.

I have left DU, for the most part. It is no longer, to me, a community.

Have went from being a liberal here to...well I am not sure. I am just a misogynist white privileged person. I have been reduced to a few simple phrases. I hate women, love guns, and think every shooting in the news is cool. I am pro choice on home schooling, pot, reproductive choices, pro gay marriage, anti-war, and take a lot of leftist positions here and on the new site.

DU has taken a turn for the worse - we are eating our own. People we would normally identify with we rip to shreds over every little thing.

Obama is either right in everything or you hate him and liberals. If you don't agree every SI cover or comic is sexist you hate women and are sexist. There is no room for real discussion - either you are pure enough or you are a rw troll.

DU has become a parody of itself. We simply attack everyone who does not tow a certain line. Object to proposed gun legislation? You love guns, hate freedom, want to see people killed. Aren't as outraged as someone else over a comic book cover? You are dumb and don't understand the issues and you hate women. Think Obama is wrong on something? You hate Obama and aren't a real liberal.

I would rather argue with people elsewhere whom I know are right wingers than to try and fight all the time to try to prove here day after day that I am a liberal and care about liberal principles. At least fighting with them I, and they, know where I stand. Here everyone is suspect, your credentials are always suspect, and if you don't always agree on everything you aren't a 'real liberal'.

I can fight with rw'ers all day long. At least when I argue with them I get labeled a liberal. Here when I don't agree with someone I am everything from a flaming libertarian to someone who hates women and loves seeing them repressed.

The puritans around here are winning.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Some folks have cranked the suck up to 11, that's fo sho.

Personally, my answer is to not take shit so seriously, to find the humor in some of the rather, ah, over the top hyperbole (like when not finding spiderwoman's butt objectionable is compared, with a presumably straight face, to being in the klan, for instance)

Course, when I do that, I'm accused of "mocking". i'm horribly mean and inappropriate, even when I respond to OTT personal attacks with total reasonableness. Shit, I try to be nice to people who are flat-out nasty to me, and I'm guilty of provoking them into getting posts hidden with "microagressions"



But, fuck it. It's clear to me that nothing short of not believing the incredibly annoying onerous things I believe- on issues like personal freedom, free expression, etc- will satisfy the people I piss off, so, what to do?

Like I said, I just don't take it - or those parts of it - that seriously anymore. I take what is good, leave the rest. Life is too short.

[The Straight Story]

17. And that is how it seems to be now

I don't take that stuff seriously - I just can't. It gets so over the top..."I am outraged over X, you aren't outraged in the same way? You hate! You are no liberal! Skinner should ban everyone who doesn't show the same level as outrage as I do!"

Truly sad when even Du'ers are laughing at DU now. And when people who are liberal are kicked to the side for people who say they are the true liberals because they are more pure than you because they are more upset than you are.

It's gotten to the point that I don't even think I am liberal anymore (though the rw'ers on FB and discussionist see me as a flaming liberal). 10 yrs on DU and I get why people are upset and leaving - this is NOT a place for all liberals. Just a few purists who spend their time telling the rest of us we are all sinners and need to understand there is only one true way (yeah, sounds a lot like conservative Christians to me too).

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Yeah, I'm sure there are people who have demanded I be banned, at some point or other.

Which is pretty fucking funny. In the real world, actual reality, Planet Earth, I'm about as textbook a Liberal Democrat as exists, in the wild.

But I'm supposed to be some kind of deep cover RW troll because I dont have a problem with the sports illustrated swimsuit issue?

... Insanity.

[Sherman A1]

22. I must agree with you.

I took a three month break earlier this year and I suspect that no one really noted my absence (hardly a surprise in such a busy forum). At times I guess one hopes for community, but it really is just a forum and one often filled with what appears to be sniping and oneupmanship. At times any post that suggests perhaps we not take the current "X" approach is shouted down as we are not pure enough for those who respond. Personally it was the lack of civility and not the disagreements that suggested a break was needed. Now I post mainly in the smaller forums and mostly stay away from the major topics of the day whatever they happen to be at the time.

DU still makes a fair news feed, but so does my FB page along with Al Jazzera and a few other discussion forums.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. Seems like we're becoming ossified...

part of it is strange battle lines being drawn-- post about a DUer running for office and the thread dies but post about Spiderwoman's ass and all hell breaks loose. People invested in fighting sexism or conservative bias in the Administration or just some religious view don't just see it everywhere but they have a lot of energy to fight for their cause. A lot more energy than the rest of us who don't rally care about every little snippet.

Another part of it is no meetups any more. There are a few groups that get together privately, but nothing like the hundred or so people in a Philadelphia bar. Remember those meetups Lynnsinn set up? Used to have dinner parties in NYC and I went to a few things in peoples' back yards in New England. Not any more.

Those were the days when we had a Bush to kick around and a Clinton that we weren't interested in taking down. We had fights, but we had unity, too.

I think the turning point was during the Kerry campaign when some elements drove out a Kerry campaign official who was posting here. Skinner never told us who he was, but verified that he was the real deal. It was unmerciful how he got attacked and finally driven out. We'll never know, but I'm pretty sure some of our more ignorant members got sucked in by outside operatives to get the job done.

And we haven't been the same since. Too many people are in fight mode now and the chance for this place to have an impact is long gone.

I'm not sure it's the Puritans winning. I think it's more like anyone who has the energy for a fight over bullshit. Or, perhaps, is being paid to fight.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. You don't see anything similar between people labeling you

and you turning around and labeling them 'puritans'?

The status quo of our society is racist and sexist. People who tell you you're supporting sexism or racism or whatever in these talks aren't saying you're a KKK hood-wearer, or that you think women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. They're trying to show you the ways, from the blatant to the subtle, that racism and and sexism are entwined in just about every aspect of society. Now personally, I think it would be easier to start people out on the things that are more blatantly and obviously harmful, and working towards the more subtle, but other people disagree with that strategy, and try to bring up examples that go more towards subtly shaping our overall worldview. And they really don't deserve to be labeled 'puritans' or 'frigid' or 'hysterical' or any of the other things I've seen thrown their way for their efforts.

[Unknown Beatle]

26. I looked forward to Bigtree's posts.

They were very well articulated and intelligent. Although I have only been a member for about a year and ten months, I will miss him.

[Enthusiast]

27. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

Thank you, madfloridian.

[davidpdx]

30. I know this is going to piss off a lot of people, though it isn't meant to

but I don't think any forum can be a "real" community due to the anonymity and ability of anyone to simply cut into other people on a whim.

I realize many of you DO know each other well from years and years of posting (and I've heard many people have met in person). I think that's great. However most people don't know each other from Tom, Dick, or Harry (Jane, Mary, or Rhonda if you will for the ladies).

DU has over 217,000 users, it's really difficult to define it as a community when you have that many people who are mostly anonymous.

[Corruption Inc]

36. Good post, good responses.

There's a swarm of "purists" here, attack mode abusers whom instantly jump into action against the ones they've deemed evil others, which is all liberals. The "purists" are political operatives whether paid or not. The "purists" posts follow standard propaganda doctrines, ad-hom attacks, distractions and emotional rather than rational discussion. Which gets to the others, the personal agenda posters whom use the exact same techniques.

Years ago, this place was a decent news aggregate with some rational discussion following. Now it's like Yahoo's old boards with plenty of links to Yahoo news and every other thoroughly discredited corporate news frauds.

The population of people who have been politically active over the last 10 years are very well educated people and are the ones who are leaving due to the lack of intelligent thought here.

[carolinayellowdog]

55. what you describe is the willful destruction/disruption of community

Why it has been allowed remains a mystery to me but the jury system accelerated the downward trend.

[sibelian]

37. I was VERY surprised by the reaction to my GBCW.

VERY.

I was convinced everyone was going to be horrible. They were lovely. Well, none of my "opponents" showed up, but there you go.

I used to think of DU as just a place to post, and actually leaving made me fell more like part of it than staying.

I am not blind to its faults...

I still feel more at home on Discussionist, now. Not because there's a larger proportion of people there who agree with me,(there are some posting there who just aren't worth paying any attention to at all) but because the posting style is so much clearer and also because... for example.... there's a die-hard conservative there (thinks torture has it's place) who, upon finding out I was ill, gave me one of these:



So ... ...

Also, the feminists on Discussionist I RESPECT, DEEPLY. They seem to be VASTLY more clued up then a certain number of participants on this board and they NEVER re-interpret what I say into twisted junk. I disagree with some aspects of what they believe... but this disagreement would never cause me to mistrust them, they are never manipulative or self-absorbed... and our disagreements typically results in me having to think hard to myself "WHY do I disagree with them, what do I actually think about this..." and sometimes having to admit that the issue isn't as simple as I imagined, or even that I'm just wrong.

There have always been a number of people here for whom I have a lot of time... but looking at my activity here now it tends to be the people who listen.

I can't put up with people misrepresenting my or other posters positions any more. I just don't have the patience.

[Maeve]

38. Thank you

I've been here since early on and watched DU grow, bloom, fade and regrow. I remember 9/11, when Yahoo news was frozen, the disappointment of 2004, pouring virtual drinks in the Lounge, the thrill of 2008.
I don't post like I used to, but it's still a "home" on the internet and it is sad to see longtime posters leave.

[el_bryanto]

39. Certainly something to think about.

Some people do come here for the sport of debate - to fuck around with people. And some people come here for serious discussion - it's hard for those two types to live together.

Bryant

[deutsey]

40. I've been here since 2001

and I don't think I'm being wistfully nostalgic when I say I felt like DU was a community (albeit a virtual one) during the Bush years, even with our disagreements, dramas, and epic flame wars. I participated because I felt I was part of a community.

I think you're right...it's become more of a forum now, which is why I lurk a lot more than I post.

I still find DU a valuable source of information, but I no longer feel like I'm part of a community the way I used to.

No bitterness on my part, though. As Vonnegut once observed, "So it goes."

[madfloridian]

56. I don't see you post much anymore.

And that's a shame. So many posters I counted on for research in various areas just don't bother anymore.

[Starry Messenger]

41. This place is a business, sadly.

It's been made clear that our caring for each other is secondary.

[YoungDemCA]

80. People before profits!!

Except when it's your own profits, apparently.

[SidDithers]

42. DU ceased to be a community when Obama was elected...

up until then, we all had a common enemy.

Now, DU is a purposeless forum, with disparate elements all barking and braying about the topics that are important to them.

That said, there are communities within DU - groups of posters who share opinion on enough topics to build real camaraderie. Often, communities within DU will bump against one another, and is a major cause of friction here.


There are also fluid, dynamic allegiances, depending on the topic. I may agree with a poster on some issues, but not on others.

Lastly, DU is overrun with trolls, particularly multiply banned zombies, who have shown time and again that they can't remain on the good side of the Terms of Service. They conceal former identities, and often continue the behaviour that got them banned previously. They're not here posting in good faith.

Sid

[madfloridian]

43. "barking and braying about the topics that are important to them"

What in the world is wrong with posting about issues important to us? Isn't that how social media is meant to be used?

[SidDithers]

44. Leaving out "disparate elements" alters the meaning of the statment...

What I see is mostly single issue posters talking past each other.

Sid

[Rex]

81. That is an odd thing to say imo.

Very condescending and I guess that includes every last one of us...including Sid himself.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Completely agree.

The amnesty seemed like a good thing, but it allowed too many who aren't here "in good faith" to start their shit again. The jury system is hopelessly flawed, but it does show the problems which exist here.

[hifiguy]

79. There is a lot to this.

Few things unite a disparate group like a particularly loathsome common enemy, and the Chimp/Darth maladministration was about as loathsome as anything can get. Without that common target some fault lines have inevitably developed.

MIRT generally does a fine job of nuking the obvious trolls, but some trolls have become smarter about going right up to the line without getting tombstoned.

[Jefferson23]

45. Bigtree left?

I read redqueen left too..I had not communicated with either much, if at all, but read their OP's so, yea..that
is very unfortunate.

[leftstreet]

46. DURec

[The Magistrate]

50. I Will Miss Them Both, Ma'am

Did not always agree with either, but frequently did, and they were good people.

[aikoaiko]

51. It depends on the GBCW OP

Really I think most of them are vain, but some people put thought into them and generally those go well.

Others just say they are leaving because DU sucks and those get same sentiment in return.

When people who leave post as if they are a part of the community DU responds accordingly. And vice versa.

And most of them come back regardless of how they GBCW.

[steve2470]

53. I think my points have all been covered above already....

I wasn't here in the glory days of 2001-2003, but I caught the tail end of 2004 and the remaining years of the awful Bush regime. Once President Obama was elected, this place lost its collective unifying purpose of opposing the evils of Bush/Cheney.

When moderation was in place, we were spared 99% of the negativity, but apparently that came at too high a price to both the Admins and the moderators. Now the hostility is on full display, and it's very distasteful to me. I didn't always agree with either bigtree or redqueen, but they both deserved a kind and respectful sendoff, even if they both come back one day.

This place is more than just a place to post cat photos, even though I love cats and puppies and animals. It's more than just a place to wrangle over the details of saving Social Security or electing more progressives. At least it is for me. If it's just a place to spend a few idle minutes for you, at least try to be kind and respectful to people. One can dream, at any rate.

[madfloridian]

54. Very little room left for serious posts.

They drop so quickly it's not worth the effort. Yes, both deserved that respectful send-off.

[obxhead]

57. How do we "fix" it though?

The 2 today are just added to a very long list that I suspect many more will join.

[madfloridian]

63. We can't fix it ourselves.

Basically it is not our forum, we only post here. I would like to see us go back to the moderator system. We had our differences then, but overall things were handled more fairly IMHO.

[obxhead]

73. Maybe.

The favorites thing existed, but it wasn't as significant as it is now.

The other side of the coin is the party in power being more important than the policy we need. That is a massive hurdle to overcome.

[Iron Man]

71. I post on two comic book forums.

I have been on both forums since the 90s. I've formed great relationships there. They both are a community of like-minded individuals who'll offer support to anyone who has a problem. It's nice to see that.

However, there'll be the usual few posters who thrive in drama and create chaos and misery for everyone else. Then when others call them out on their crap, they'll post gbcw posts and leave for a few months, six months, and always come back and repeat their drama-filled posts.

I guess my point is that forums can and do become a community. Like a real life community, there are wonderful people who'll do anything for you. But then there are those who just want to watch the forum burn. You'll see that everywhere.

[Jamastiene]

78. I rarely post here any more because of all the right wingers who

post here now....and rude ones, at that. There are way too many rude right wing types here now. They are total assholes to long timers too. It is hardly Democratic at all any more. It's more like Conservo-Libertarian Underground now. Most of the good Democrats here are being slowly run off, one by one.