Will justice only be served if George Zimmerman is convicted?

[Snake Alchemist]

I'm going to take the unpopular stance that I want to wait to see how the trial unfolds. I am anxious to hear the witness and coroner testimonies. I'm going to approach it with an open mind and see what comes to light.

[dkf]

1. The whole thing has already been prejudged.

Personally I want to know what the autopsy shows about who was where then the shot was fired. If Zimmerman was on top that screams guilty to me. If he was underneath then I'd listen more to what he has to say. But all this stuff coming out is ridiculous if we want an impartial jury.

[Snake Alchemist]

4. That will definitely be a key finding. nt

[HIMYM]

99. I agree completely!

the all and powerful media has already convicted Zimmerman.

and despite how much people hate the media, they tend to listen when their statements are the same as theirs.

Lets let the trial tell us the facts and not the media.

[greyl]

107. Has Fox News convicted Zimmerman? nt

[rock]

2. Since I am finding it extremely difficult to get the facts in this case

I too, want to suppress any pre-judgement and wait to see what evidence is presented.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Blackstone: Better 10 guilty go free than one innocent suffer

Though I have serious doubts how this could be justifiable.

[dkf]

6. It's based on his state of mind.

I'm not sure how a persons own bias would affect that. I imagine someone who is generally more nervous would find it reasonable while someone who isn't would think it was too much.

[LiberalArkie]

5. With the stand your ground law, he might be really not guilty.

[treestar]

7. Good point

the worst part about this law is that it makes is so easy to claim self defense and standing your ground - really an ill advised law that could lead to a lot of deaths/beatings that might not have happened.

[Snake Alchemist]

8. How difficult should it be to claim self-defense?

That is an interesting question.

[treestar]

120. Many states - it is an affirmative defense

It shouldn't just be the shooter said so.

[arthritisR_US]

30. My understanding of the law is that you can

stand your ground if you are approached aggressively and there is no alternative open to retreat. Here Zimmerman did the approaching, against advisement not to do so and wait for the police. It strikes me that in applying this law it would be Trayvon who could claim it's usage not Zimmerman, IMO.

[treestar]

121. I thought it meant though you could retreat, you don't have to

Which really caters to anyone spoiling for a fight.

[arthritisR_US]

122. I may be wrong but I thought it only

applied to a no choice situation. Otherwise, what you would have is open season for anyone with a grudge, be it race, gender or orientation.

[BklnDem75]

9. It will be a step in the right direction

Even if a shitty law condones murder, it's still murder, not justice.

[Snake Alchemist]

12. so regardless of what comes out in trial, you've

Already made up your mind?

[BklnDem75]

14. Yes

Just like with Sean Bell, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and countless other verdicts, you don't need a jury to know an injustice was done.

[Snake Alchemist]

21. glad you are that confident. nt

[BklnDem75]

25. Practice makes perfect

So do you think justice was served in those verdicts I mentioned?

[Snake Alchemist]

40. What about Casey Anthony, OJ, Duke Lacrosse, Reginald Denny?

Were those verdicts correct?

[NoGOPZone]

42. There was no verdict in the Duke case because

there wasn't any trial

[Snake Alchemist]

44. Very true. But many were convinced of their guilt early on. nt

[BklnDem75]

45. Those cases makes my point more, don't you think?

[Snake Alchemist]

46. No. nt

[BklnDem75]

50. So you believe justice was served in those cases?

[Snake Alchemist]

51. Maybe. Hopefully, the jurors made the decision they thought was best. nt

[BklnDem75]

56. Seriously? Caylee Anthony had justice with that verdict?

[Snake Alchemist]

59. So you're sure she did not? nt

[BklnDem75]

60. Once again, yes

Juries aren't infallible. Let's not pretend justice begins and ends with them.

[Snake Alchemist]

61. Glad to know that you are better informed than many juries. You should sell your services. nt

[BklnDem75]

65. Your mistake is thinking jurors are more informed simply because they're jurors

How do you feel about overturned cases? Was justice served until it wasn't?

[Snake Alchemist]

67. No. But I do believe they may be more informed than joe sixpack off the street.

I do not believe cases should be overturned unless their is evidence indicating they should.

[BklnDem75]

69. Have you ever been a part of a jury pool?

Where do you think these juries come from? Unless there's a media blackout, we all get the same information.

[Snake Alchemist]

82. yes. the media often is inaccurate. especially initially. nt

[BklnDem75]

91. I was referring to live coverage, not speculation.

[Snake Alchemist]

92. There was live coverage of the shooting? Then it should be a quick decision by the jury. nt

[BklnDem75]

93. Mind sticking to the subject?

Did you forget we were talking about jurors? Please try to keep up.

[Snake Alchemist]

94. You said there was live coverage, no? nt

[BklnDem75]

97. Of court cases, remember?

Jurors and non-jurors getting the same information? Do you need to reread the thread? I'm in no rush, take your time.

[Snake Alchemist]

100. Oh, then I agree that if someone watches 100% of the live coverage and reviews 100% of the evidence

exhibits then they may have a valuable opinion concerning the verdict.

[BklnDem75]

103. You're welcome

[Snake Alchemist]

104. Wait, are you going to buy me a 4 million dollar ring? nt

[WeekendWarrior]

27. I'm pretty confident myself

I heard the 911 recording:

Are you following him?

Yes.

We don't need you to do that.

OK.

Yet he went forward anyway. He was pursuing an unarmed kid and carrying a gun. That kid is now dead.

If anyone could claim self-defense, it's Trayvon Martin. Do you think he would have been given the same benefit of the doubt?

[Snake Alchemist]

34. Surprisingly, you are allowed to follow people. nt

[WeekendWarrior]

41. I think if the police tell you not to and you're carrying a gun

you should probably listen to them and get the fuck back in your car.

Zimmerman did all he needed to do. Notified the police. Anything beyond that is on him. And a young man is dead because of it.

[Snake Alchemist]

43. Does not mean you cannot do it though.

I also do not believe he was given an order.

[WeekendWarrior]

53. You're right, he doesn't have to, but

look what happened. A man wound up dead. At his hand. And he was the only one carrying a gun.

And, to my mind, if Trayvon lashed out in any way, HE was the one defending himself. HE was the one standing his ground.

Your concern for Zimmerman is noted, however.

[Snake Alchemist]

55. In your mind? Hopefully, the trial will leave little room for doubt in whichever direction it takes

Also, I have no love for Zimmerman, but having been burned before I am willing to wait to see how everything unfolds.

[WeekendWarrior]

62. You're Kidding, Right?

Trials are FULL of doubt. The outcome of most trials doesn't come down to the evidence but to the skill and likeability of the attorneys involved and their ability to sway a jury despite what the evidence might say. That justice is sometimes served is a mere by-product of the process. So this belief that a trial will clear anything up is a dubious one.

In this case, however, based on that 911 recording alone, Zimmerman did what he shouldn't have been doing—following what he thought was a "thug" and confronting him. After he had been told not to do that. And despite what you think about the words on the recording, Neighborhood Watch people are ROUTINELY told NOT TO PURSUE, MERELY REPORT. For their own safety. And because Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain, he would know this.

And your own personal bias—having been burned—has nothing to do with this particular case.

He followed an unarmed boy who was merely walking home from the store and shot him. There is no justification for what he did.

[Snake Alchemist]

63. Confronting him?

Unfortunately or fortunately, our jury system is the best option we have.

[WeekendWarrior]

64. Yes, and they sometimes get it wrong

Hopefully, in this case they won't and Zimmerman will be convicted. And maybe his conviction will be a warning to all the gun happy idiots out there who take to the streets trying to play hero.

[Snake Alchemist]

66. Hopefully, all evidence will be reviewed and the right verdict will be reached. Whatever that

may be.

[WeekendWarrior]

108. I agree. And in my opinion

—which is all anyone here has to offer—the right verdict is guilty. I'm not beholden to the law in assuming that a man is innocent until proven guilty. That's a legal concept.

[H2O Man]

127. I am, too.

[SaltyBro]

10. Of course

This man stalked and executed a child based solely on his skin colour.

[Snake Alchemist]

13. why do we even need a trial? nt

[SaltyBro]

17. because that is how our country works

we're a democracy and we have a bill of rights. the right to a fair trial is one of them.

[Snake Alchemist]

35. But if we already know the correct verdict than maybe it is a waste of time. nt

[Becka2515]

20. Please stop it

You or I don't know precisely what went on that night and what was going through Zimmerman's mind at the time, I think him guilty of Manslaughter at the very least but there is no credible facts that point to 1st degree murder.

[obamanut2012]

33. The poster didn't mention M1

[Becka2515]

79. The post i replied too

sounded like Zimmerman committed M1, stalking and executing sure sounds like M1. I dont believe that happened that night.

[HooptieWagon]

11. Justice will be served...

... if there is competent prosecutors, competent defense, competent judge, and a competent jury that examines the evidence presented to them and renders a verdict.

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. Barring some heretofore unknown, definitively exculpatory, evidence, yes. n/t

[Lex]

16. Probably a dumb question at this point, but was an autopsy performed on Trayvon?

And (if there was one) did it show if he was shot in the back or in the chest or what?

[OneGrassRoot]

22. The autopsy should answer many questions.

From what I can tell, the results are still sealed.

I was also wondering how valid the funeral director's comments were. I didn't realize he actually spoke with someone in a fairly public, official way about what he saw:


The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin's body for burial told a TV anchor that Martin had no injuries to his hands or arms that would indicate a fight had occurred.

Richard Kurtz told CNN's Nancy Grace on Wednesday that Martin had a gunshot wound to his upper chest, but any other injury would have been difficult to detect because an autopsy was performed on the teen's body before he received it.

"As for his hands and knuckles, I don't see any evidence he had been fighting anybody," Kurtz said.

http://www.nbc12.com/story/17286084/trayvon-martins-autopsy-still-under-seal

[Lex]

26. Yes, the autopsy results will be key then.

I was slightly worried that they hadn't done one because of how badly bumbled (perhaps intentionally) things have been.

The special prosecutor has seen the results of the autopsy before deciding to file 2nd degree murder charges, and they've been sealed, so there must be some very interesting things in that autopsy report.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. Exactly. n/t

[obamanut2012]

36. I was thinking the same thing

Because I thought the charge would be Manslaughter, but if the autopsy reports show some "interesting" things...

[NoGOPZone]

38. The affidavit the prosecution filed during yesterday's hearing

indicates that Trayvon was shot in the chest. See third paragraph from the end in the following document. Autopsies are routinely performed in cases of violent deaths. That's one thing Sanford got right.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

[csziggy]

77. In the Special Prosecutor's Affadavit of Probable Cause Trayvon was shot in the chest

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf
"Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest."

[leftynyc]

18. Of course not

and I suspect you're merely wanting to stir people up with even asking this ridiclulous question. If it's a fair and public trial and no jurors have been paid or threatened, they will have done their jobs and whatever their decision is is what it is. I don't have to agree with the jury in order to say justice has been done (I think OJ is guilty as sin).

[Snake Alchemist]

37. Check out some of the posts above ours and you will see some will only be satisfied with one

conclusion. I used to think OJ and Casey Anthony were guilty as sin. Now I'm not 100% positive for either one.

[leftynyc]

47. Then some people are not interested in justice

Justice is a fair trial - all many people were asking for Mr. Martin and his family. If that SYG law is seen by the jury as an acceptable defense, then so be it. Work to change the law - we cannot bend the laws to fit our worldview.

[RZM]

19. People walk all the time for crimes they have committed

It's part of the game.

That being said, I haven't seen all the evidence and I'm not a lawyer, so I really can't say whether or not Zimmerman committed second degree murder. That's what the trial is for I guess.

[Johonny]

23. Most DUers wanted the victim to have a day in court

I don't think any DUer will know how the court case will turn out. Other high profile cases have surprised in the past.

In true metaphysical sense "justice" is beyond knowing or reaching a conclusive definition on internet boards. For starters some think justice can never be served unless the dead kid can pop back to life... defining what justice means to people compared to the justice process is in the US is likely a murky topic.

[Life Long Dem]

24. The goalpost seems to be moving

First it was for justice that he have a trial. Now this is being expanded to a conviction. I myself am still in the camp of innocent until proven guilty. So I'll wait until trial, and hold any mob mentality at bay until then.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

29. Justice will be served when we know the facts of this case

and respond appropriately.

[Marr]

31. I think that's obvious.

Zimmerman chased and murdered an unarmed boy-- that's not even in dispute. So yes, I think it's fair to say that justice will only be served if he's convicted and sentenced.

But these things aren't about justice. They're about law, and those are completely different things. A jury will decide whether there's a case to convict Zimmerman on the charges, not what is "just".

[Snake Alchemist]

39. Chased? Maybe. nt

[Lex]

48. Pursued, at least, AFTER being commanded not to do so.

nt

[Snake Alchemist]

49. He was commanded? nt

[Lex]

52. Told, instructed, advised. He pursued anyway.

nt

[Snake Alchemist]

54. I believe he was told it was not necessary. Far cry from a command. nt

[Lex]

57. Fact remains the 911 record shows he was in pursuit.

And that is exactly where a jury will place weight.

[Snake Alchemist]

58. Yes, and you are allowed to do that. nt

[Life Long Dem]

72. I believe your not allowed to be the aggressor and then claim the SYG law as a defense.

[Snake Alchemist]

84. I do not believe that the law considers following an

Act of again aggression.

[Life Long Dem]

96. Stalking is a form of aggression.

[Snake Alchemist]

98. I am not sure at what threshhold that it becomes stalking. nt

[Life Long Dem]

102. Could be a repetitive thing

But I think GZ would have a hard time claiming the SYG law when he pursued Trayvon.

[Marr]

71. Not maybe. This isn't in dispute.

He pursued Martin after being informed he didn't need to do that. He said Martin was running, and followed. That's chasing.

[Snake Alchemist]

81. following is not chasing. nt

[Marr]

86. Yes it is.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chase?s=t

to follow in pursuit: to chase after someone.

But you're making a legal argument here, when you began with a question of justice. Zimmerman may very well legitimately avoid legal prosecution. That has nothing to do with justice.

Given the uncontested information available, I think a reasonable person could say that justice would not be served if Zimmerman walked.

[Snake Alchemist]

88. If p then q <> If q then p

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/follow

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chase

Very little is uncontested.

[bluesbassman]

95. So is it your contention that Zimmerman needed to "follow" Martin...

in order to fulfill his duties as a Neighborhood Watch Captain?

[Snake Alchemist]

101. No, merely that following is not always chasing. nt

[Yo_Mama]

32. Justice can only be served if he gets a fair trial

Since we don't know all the evidence, esp. the most important stuff, no one of us can truly "know" now that he is guilty of murder two. Granted, we have highly reasonable suspicions. Until the trial we don't know if they are well-founded. Under our system, crimes have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court. Sometimes that lets the guilty go free or be convicted of lesser charges, but it's still better than shifting the system so that more accused people are convicted of crimes they didn't really commit. Enough are already.

Ultimately the "justice" in a justice system isn't true justice. There's no victim compensation fund that can give the Martin boy his life back, or let his parents get even one more chance to hug him. It's all gone. The only thing we can give the parents now is the knowledge that we all did care about what happened to their son. But that's not justice.

A justice system can only be a search to find the truth and to penalize the truly guilty, but it doesn't provide true justice, and most of us here believe that the goal is not to inflict damage on the guilty comparable to what they inflicted on their victims. Really. we believe in attempting to correct the correctable, and in attempting to defend against further wrongs.

I think the closest we can come to abstract justice is to protect the rights of the accused, and conduct ourselves so that we reiterate to ourselves and all society that the wrongful death of or wrongful injury to any one of us is an offense to all of us. That would be progress, compared to a century ago.

But we shouldn't fool ourselves about justice. There's no way we can make this whole. There's no justice that can be rendered in a true sense.

I don't know why such bad stuff often happens to such good people. What I've seen of the parents is heartrending.

[Kesiyu]

68. We are not the jury

Let's not forget Trayvon Martin inflicted a wound in the back of Zimmerman's head. Many of us progressives originally thought Martin had not hurt Zimmerman at all, but that was not the case. Zimmerman was definitely under Trayvon Martin on the ground, contradicting initial (false) claims that a slim, weak Martin could not have outpowered the large gorilla that Zimmerman was (gorilla he isn't, because recent pictures do not show him as being nearly as heavy as we thought).

Let's wait and see what the jury has to say.

[uppityperson]

70. What proof of that "wound" do you have? What proof of Zimmy "was definitely under Trayvon" do you

have?

[Kesiyu]

73. The video enhanced by ABC News

"ABC News on Monday aired what it said was an enhanced version of a police video taken the night of the shooting that appeared to show wounds or welts on the back of Zimmerman's head."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/media-takes-on-police-like-role-in-trayvon-martin-case-by-analyzing-911-calls-enhancing-video/2012/04/02/gIQAr1HYrS_story.html

[uppityperson]

75. That is not proof of either of your assertions. Try again.

Zimmy "may" have had a welt on the back of his head. He may not. That in no way proves your allegations that Trayvon inflicted a wound OR that Zimmy was "definitely under Trayvon". An editorial saying that many qualifiers in no way proves either of those.

"Let's not forget Trayvon Martin inflicted a wound in the back of Zimmerman's head. Many of us progressives originally thought Martin had not hurt Zimmerman at all, but that was not the case. Zimmerman was definitely under Trayvon Martin on the ground, "

Do you think Trayvon attacked Zimmy? Do you think Zimmy should be in prison or out on bail?

[Kesiyu]

109. I guess the jury will have to decide if that's a wound

Do you think Zimmerman trip or hit himself?

[Life Long Dem]

78. If the police don't have any photos of Zimmerman's injuries then he has no evidence of injuries

Forget about using some blurry enhanced video that you really can't tell if there is any injury or not. If the police didn't take photos then there were no injuries. Or no evidence of any injuries anyway. You could enhance the video to show no injury as well.

[uppityperson]

80. How does that video prove Zimmy was under Trayvon? I don't see it, would you point it out for me?

thankyou

[Kesiyu]

110. I didn't say it proves it

It is my opinion that I don't think he hit himself in the back of the head or trip.

[BklnDem75]

74. We just have to believe Zimmerman was tended to by paramedics...

but they purposely ignored dressing up a supposed gash to back of his head. Riiiight.

[gkhouston]

76. Yeah... life-threatening damage that didn't even require a butterfly bandage.

Wish I'd landed on that kind of sidewalk the last time I tripped on uneven pavement.

[Kesiyu]

111. You say "supposed gash" but it could be a welt

By saying it's supposed to be a gash, you pretend that he had to have his wound closed. Where do you get gash from?

[cyberswede]

113. All this is beside the point...

there is no reason why he shot a kid to death.

Do you think he was justified?

[BklnDem75]

114. So far, everyone that went with the 'wound to the head' story

[Kesiyu]

116. Never say "everyone"

Because blanket statements will likely embarass you. Are you really going to claim that all people described the wound as a gash when talking about the wound? I'd love to believe you, but can't. Why did the AP writer (who is one of the people you cite) not say it was a "gash"? You exaggerate.

[BklnDem75]

117. Actually if you read your own article, it's talking about the media,

citing ABC News' enhanced video as an example. It's not actually RUNNING with anything, but thanks for your concern.

To save you from an all out search, since it's so important to you, I'll amend my claim to what I've read so far.

[uppityperson]

125. Never say "never".

Or, in your case, never say anything. Thanks to MIRTer.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

83. No

If Zimmerman is duly acquitted in a court of law that is managed appropriately, then justice will have been served IMHO. The point of seeking "justice" via a trial is not to necessarily convict somebody. It's to examine the facts in a given case in order to determine whether or not a crime was committed and judge accordingly.

[MrBig]

87. +1 - Exactly what I wanted to say n/t

[Rex]

85. You've been on the fence since the beginning of this

no reason to change now. I don't mean that as an insult, I admire you unwillingness to bend to public opinion.

I don't really know- if there is no conviction then where is the justice for the dead kid? If there is a conviction, was justice really served or was Zimm used as a 'sacrificial lamb'. IMO, there are many many people personally involved in this and could face possible convictions themselves if it comes to light that the PD was involved in a cover-up.

My personal feelings on this case are that justice will not be served or if it is, then probably bare minimum justice while maybe some of the other collaborators go scott free.

So no...no matter what happens I do not think justice will be fully served in this case. Too many things have happened that are abnormal in what was police procedure on that day.

[Snake Alchemist]

89. Very true. I have been on the fence.

I could go either way at this point. I really want to see what the eye witnesses have to say on the stand.

[Rex]

105. I really want to watch the trial.

I have a feeling it will be riveting.

[ZombieHorde]

90. Is justice a real thing, or is it just something we tell ourselves to make life seem less shity? nt

[Rex]

106. Depends on if a person believes in the concept of evil and good imo.

nt.

[ZombieHorde]

118. I believe good and evil are emotional reactions to perceived stimuli.

Does that count?

[Rex]

119. I don't really know.

Good question though.

[H2O Man]

115. Maybe, maybe not.

It's impossible to say how the trial will go, or if it will even go to trial. There may be a plea deal, or there is a slight chance of the case being dismissed.

What can be said with absolute certainty is that "justice" is being served, now, today. More, both the prosecutor and defense attorney appear to be class acts, which has already brought a dignity to the legal case that was certainly missing.

[Better Believe It]

123. Only if he is found guilty by a jury based on evidence.

We don't know most much less all of the facts in this case.

Until we do it's just speculation.

[chrisa]

124. Hopefully a fair trial

That determines whether he's guilty or innocent of whatever they're charging him with.

I think it's a dangerous mindset to be 100% sure that someone is guilty or innocent without all of the facts.

[alarimer]

126. He clearly shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

The only thing to determine is whether it was murder or not.

[barbtries]

128. my opinion is

that justice will only be served if he is convicted and sentenced to serious prison time. there is a teensy tiny chance that evidence revealed during the course of the trial will change my mind. i don't expect that however.