Three women pass Marine Corps endurance test...

[Veilex]

...paving way for possible first female graduates of infantry school

This is a really big deal. This is also very scary.

The infantry is a bastion of the cult of machismo. Nothing, and I mean nothing, exemplifies the pernicious impact that machismo has on young minds, than what occurs within the ranks of the infantry. How Would I know? Because I was an Infantryman.

Infantry life is brutal in a way most people don't understand. Not only is an infantryman trained to kill in a variety of ways, but Infantry are trained to dehumanize anything and everything that is not part of the chain of command... it makes target acquisition and killing easier. This goes so far as to have an inordinate number of cadence "hymns" that glorify killing, saturating the ground with the remains of your enemies, and overall teach that violence to get what you want is good. Add to that, every single infantryman is "encouraged" to attend church while in boot camp. Those who make the mistake of choosing not to go, nearly never do so again. Suffice it to say, the military takes a dim view of "heathens".

I'm encouraged to see women pass the infantry standard... but I'm also fearful of what could happen when, eventually, they are allowed to join the infantry. Allowing women to choose to be infantry needs to happen.

I just hope there are sufficient protections in place as women join what is perhaps the last "all-boys-club".


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/10/03/three-women-pass-marine-corps-endurance-test-paving-way-for-possible-first-female-graduates-of-infantry-school/?tid=sm_fb

[NYC_SKP]

1. Sounds like a description of a terrorist cult of violence and bigotry, something we should loathe.

Maybe it should be abolished.

We should have a department of peace.

[Veilex]

3. Would be nice to have a Department of Peace.

I'm sure they'd take a dim view of the perpetual violence that is the life of the Infantry.

[seabeyond]

2. the top dictates. it has to be in the brass. nt

[seabeyond]

4. and good for those three women. nt

[MADem]

5. The military is changing. These young people aren't like the old paradigms.

I'm not fearful at all.

Rhonda Cornum (POW, retired as a BGEN) and Tammy Duckworth (Congresswoman, lost her legs in combat flying a helo), among many others, have demonstrated that women aren't lacking in the "moxie" department.

And no matter what some old fart bellowing at them says, young people today just aren't as sexist as their older counterparts. I think the most trouble the Army will have is from OLDER recruits--they're the ones who will have to get their act together and step up to the 21st Century.

[Veilex]

6. I truly hope you are right.

Its long past time this all-boys-club grew up and joined the rest of civilization.

[sufrommich]

7. My father was a Marine,he's also a kind and gentle soul,

same with his brother,my uncle.Not everyone fits into simplistic,cartoonish stereotypes.

I edited to add that my father is an atheist and has been all his life,I've never heard him claim that church was mandatory in the Marines.

[Veilex]

9. "Not everyone fits into simplistic,cartoonish stereotypes" - I made no such claim.

What I did was detail out some of the training that infantry go through. You're trying to argue against a point I didn't make.

"I've never heard him claim that church was mandatory in the Marines." - That's because, strictly speaking, its not. It is, however, heavily encouraged... and infantry receive punitive treatment if they don't attend.

Just because your father did not "claim that church was mandatory" does not mean that Infantry are not regularly coerced into going.

To be blunt, I appreciate your thoughts, but I have first hand knowledge on this topic.

[linuxman]

8. Good for them.

I served in the infantry for four years. The physical toll it took on me manifests in new, painful ways each year. I'm only 27, for what it's worth. For women, even MCT (a basic form of combat training for Marine non-combatants) was quite arduous. Far more females sustained injuries which put them out of training than the men while I was there. I think we are just built differently in some ways, which leads to more problems for the women. I see no problem with women in roles as pilots, armour, or other combat jobs, but the infantry isn't quite the same. Wearing 100+ lbs of shit on a 12 hour patrol breaks men before their time with the regularity of a clock. Far less strain broke the females I saw in training far more frequently. It's a different kind of difficulty that wreaks havoc on your back, knees, shins, and shoulders especially. If there are a few out there who pass the physical requirements to make it, more power to them. The fact is, the physical requirements for entrance to training are not even a shadow of what the infantry demands. I wouldn't recommend the infantry to most men. I would never recommend it to a woman. Are there ones out there who could do it? Sure. Is it worth crippling people by the hundreds to find the ones who make it? I don't think it is.

Flame on.

Also, the rest of the article was bullshit. Nobody gives two fucks about your religion in the Infantry. Hell, the chaplain didn't even care. Oh well, rubes eat up the whole "mindless killers" bull crap.

Those who make the mistake of choosing not to go, nearly never do so again. Suffice it to say, the military takes a dim view of "heathens".


Bullshit. I sat on my foot locker and wrote letters on Sunday while the other recruits went to services (i.e., not just "Church&quot

[Veilex]

10. "the rest of the article was bullshit" - Not bullshit. Just not true for every boot camp.

Fort Benning, GA "Home of the US Army Infantry" is horrendously bad about this sort of action. SOI at Camp Geiger is just as bad, if not worse, according to a friend of mine who recently got out. I've heard Camp San Onofre, Camp Pendleton isn't anywhere near as bad.

[linuxman]

11. I went to Geiger.

I have zero recollection of there even being a chapel. I'm sure there was one, but I never saw it, heard about it, or saw anyone attend it. We certainly weren't strong-armed into going to it.

I take that back. I remember it now. It was a tiny little thing. They opened it up for a memorial for someone that killed their self, I believe. It held about 100 people. Hardly enough room to strong-arm the 2K+ trainees that were there. I still have zero memory of anyone ever attending it. To suggest we were goading into worship is laughable.

[Veilex]

12. When were you at Geiger?

[linuxman]

13. 06'

[Veilex]

14. Hmmm...

Last edited Sat Oct 4, 2014, 12:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Didn't happen to know a guy named Jeff Johnson did you?

[linuxman]

15. If I did, I don't remember him.

I only knew folks by their last names, and Johnson is too common.

[Veilex]

19. "Johnson is too common" - Very true

Though I think you'd have known it if you'd met him.
I believe he was stationed there for a time around when you were in training. He's the one who told me about the church coercion on that base. Though its possible things might have simply changed. Certainly for the better if true.

[Aristus]

16. I was a tank crewman, and the same sort of hypermasculine, kill-'em-all culture exists among tankers

If women want to crew tanks, I hope the men they serve with treat them as valued comrades. Anyone, not just a woman, but anyone who can feed a 120mm HEAT round into the gun breach on the move while the turret is traversing in 5 seconds or less has my deepest respect.

Old-boys'-clubs need to die a long-delayed death...

[Veilex]

17. +1 Had a friend who was a 19 kilo...

I've heard a number of interesting stories about being a tanker. He told me, while driving, he'd occasionally have a hard time staying awake when not in combat...something about the vibration of the tank lulling him to sleep.

[Aristus]

18. I can vouch for that.

I was in the Gulf in '91, although my unit did not get sent to the front. (We were doing our desert terrain train-up when the ground war started......and ended...)

Luckily, I was the loader, not the driver, so I could rest my helmeted head on the radio mount and let the white noise of the moving tank rock me to sleep...

The driver had it best during down-time, since his seat reclined almost supine. But during ops, it was a risk factor for falling asleep...

[jmowreader]

20. I think the big push for this is coming from female officers

The reasoning is simple: division commanders, with one very notable exception (Jack Mackmull, who was an aviation officer when he made general), are either infantry or armor officers when they earn their first star. If there's ever going to be a female division commander, there have to be female infantry officers because we're out of Fat Jack Mackmulls.

[Veilex]

21. Interesting thoughts.

That makes quite a bit of sense. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen any women with even a single star on their shoulder.
Clearly that needs to change.

Thanks for sharing!

[jmowreader]

22. The Army has a few. You were a Marine, correct?

I did a little search and could only find two female USMC generals - Margaret Brewer was the first Marine general and retired as a Brigadier General; Angela Salinas was the highest-ranking Hispanic in the Marines, of either gender, and retired as a Major General. The Army has more, but the numbers are still pretty slim - largely because most generals have a combat arms background.

My feeling is, the first service to promote a woman to its top position will be the Coast Guard, and the first Department of Defense service will be the Air Force.