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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:21 AM Oct 2014

After seeing a lot of apocalyptic sentiment, I have to ask: when were things better?

At what point in the past were things better than now? In what ways, and for whom?

I keep seeing things like "we can't go on like this" or "we need a revolution" or whatever, but I feel like we have gone on like this, more or less muddling through, making incremental compromises with existing power structures, evolving existing systems to solve new problems, since day 1 of the Republic. The one real attempt at a revolution, at starting completely over, was a fiasco (1861).

With historically low crime rates, unemployment at what we roughly thought was "normal" until 1995 or so, improved student performance, a growing consensus on LGBT rights... I'm curious what in a concrete sense people really think is going off the rails here.

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After seeing a lot of apocalyptic sentiment, I have to ask: when were things better? (Original Post) Recursion Oct 2014 OP
It's the old "eternal vigilance" thing at work. MADem Oct 2014 #1
That, is a core problem, SCOTUS has been politicized and rulings are questionable. IMO RKP5637 Oct 2014 #13
the growing disparity in wealth is a huge issue cali Oct 2014 #2
Right, those are still very much problems Recursion Oct 2014 #3
re racial equality: How much is more awareness of inequality that has never diminished cali Oct 2014 #5
Right on - Minimum wage used to be half what it is today while gas was one fifth. tecelote Oct 2014 #4
So correct! It is a very long list. This national is paralyzed so much of the time, and fairness RKP5637 Oct 2014 #15
oh. just want to say that I really appreciate your op. cali Oct 2014 #6
It doesn't matter. randome Oct 2014 #7
I just get so weary of pointless snark. cali Oct 2014 #8
Snark aside (agree it wasn't called for)... randome Oct 2014 #11
Are prices stable? cali Oct 2014 #12
Moderately stable. It's not the same in all regions of the country, by any means. randome Oct 2014 #14
the unemployment rate is figured differently now, btw eShirl Oct 2014 #9
these are the "good, old days" 1dogleft Oct 2014 #10
The ability to live and plan for a future containing a stable ecosystem. raouldukelives Oct 2014 #16
Things were better, or at least seemed better, before . . . freedom fighter jh Oct 2014 #17
Better in some ways, worse in others thesquanderer Oct 2014 #18
"Better in some ways, worse in others" BumRushDaShow Oct 2014 #19
In the 70's, sex could certainly kill you. Bluenorthwest Oct 2014 #20

MADem

(135,425 posts)
1. It's the old "eternal vigilance" thing at work.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:29 AM
Oct 2014

This country was founded on a "complain and correct" paradigm. We don't do the Benevolent Ruler Makes Decrees To Help The Huddled Masses thing--we gripe, and if enough people gripe, it get fixed.

My biggest concern is the Supreme Court. We've got too many weirdos on that crew, and RBG is getting older and has had health issues (long life to her, I hope).

RKP5637

(67,106 posts)
13. That, is a core problem, SCOTUS has been politicized and rulings are questionable. IMO
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:25 AM
Oct 2014

much of SCOTUS has been bought too in one way or another. Some on the court also rule from faulty decisional processes IMO, not looking at the entire scope of fairness, and hence the scale of justice is not balanced for many rulings IMO. Just looking at Citizens United, for example, just WTF were some of them thinking. And for LGBT, god knows what kind of ruling they will make on that one.


 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. the growing disparity in wealth is a huge issue
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:34 AM
Oct 2014

the issue of corporate influence and control of out political system is a related issue. on another topic, women no longer have abortion rights on a national level. Racism definitely is still a big factor and very problematic. Immigration is a big fat mess. We have serious infrastructure problems that aren't being addressed. I could go on.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
3. Right, those are still very much problems
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:39 AM
Oct 2014

Emphasis on "still". Wealth inequality is worse than 30 years ago (though better than 90 years ago), and happening in the context of increasing standards of living everywhere (which is, I suppose, " the deal&quot . Is racial equality better or worse than, say, 30 years ago?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
5. re racial equality: How much is more awareness of inequality that has never diminished
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:48 AM
Oct 2014

and how much is a resurgence of racial animus? I can only guess but I'd say it's a combination. I do think that there is a white backlash, in the face of whites becoming the minority in a few brief years, that is quite concerning. That and I think the elections of President Obama have stirred up a whole heap of ugly. Is it better or worse than it was in 1984? Hard to know, but shouldn't it be markedly better if we're advancing?

Let's use, arbitrarily, I'll admit, 3 decades as a marker so as to address your "still": As you said, wealth inequality is worse, quite a bit worse, than it was 30 years ago.

There are other issues: The military industrial complex keeps growing in power. Our propensity to wage war. Aspects of FTAs, the banking industry.

Yes, we've made advances. I suppose the core question is; have the advances outpaced the setbacks? I don't know the answer to that.

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
4. Right on - Minimum wage used to be half what it is today while gas was one fifth.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:47 AM
Oct 2014

Families used to be able to survive with one wage earner.

Education used to be affordable for any kid.

There were usury laws that kept the highest credit card interest at 18%.

Many things have improved but our standard of living has dropped significantly.

RKP5637

(67,106 posts)
15. So correct! It is a very long list. This national is paralyzed so much of the time, and fairness
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:29 AM
Oct 2014

seems to be by chance than what is right and fair. We call this nation a democracy, but that is more sadly laughable more and more.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
6. oh. just want to say that I really appreciate your op.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:51 AM
Oct 2014

and I don't think revolution- certainly not armed revolution- is an answer.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
7. It doesn't matter.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 05:58 AM
Oct 2014

A reconstituted Occupy under the direction of Ed Snowden will rise from the ashes of Ukraine and save us all! I know because the prophet Greenwald told me.

As bad as things are, we have become too populous and too diverse to foment anything like a revolution. We have 'muddled along' as you say. Economically, especially, I think. Despite the ups and downs of the past 30 years, have we had a period of relative economic stability for this long? When inflation was kept this low for such a long period?

Maybe a little more upheaval in interest rates would spur on greater changes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
8. I just get so weary of pointless snark.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 06:07 AM
Oct 2014

As far as economic stability goes, we assuredly have not had a long period of economic stability- unless you count 3 years or so as "long".

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
11. Snark aside (agree it wasn't called for)...
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:12 AM
Oct 2014

...have we ever had a period when interest rates (and prices, for the most part) were this stable for this long?

Isn't it a kind of maxim that revolutions will not occur if inflation and prices are kept stable?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
12. Are prices stable?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:21 AM
Oct 2014

interest rates yes, but low interest rates haven't spurred wage increases. And food prices have gone up significantly in the past several years.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
14. Moderately stable. It's not the same in all regions of the country, by any means.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:29 AM
Oct 2014
http://business.time.com/2013/03/12/if-theres-no-inflation-why-are-prices-up-so-much/

That may result in price stability for the overall economy, but it isn’t great news for middle-class American families. It’s true that some important costs have remained moderate. Food prices may fluctuate from season to season, but overall they have risen at only a 2% compound rate since 2009. And in the current real estate market, housing costs haven’t gone up much either. Nonetheless, many of the everyday costs that Americans face have risen a lot.

The economy in its aggregate has remained relatively stable. When prices rise in some food items, it's been relatively isolated and consumers learn to shift to something lower cost or to do without. I'm sure that the rise in beef and pork prices have 'encouraged' many to eat less meat.

It's hardly a 'rah-rah' economy and people are still hurting. I'm trying to look at things on a macro level, though. And I'm certainly no economist.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]
 

1dogleft

(164 posts)
10. these are the "good, old days"
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 06:41 AM
Oct 2014

I grew up eating shit sandwiches and some days we ran out of shit. I spent 3 years homeless in TEXAS in 79-81 that was fun. Sold blood for $5 just to eat. You ask me, life is a gravy train

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
16. The ability to live and plan for a future containing a stable ecosystem.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:47 AM
Oct 2014

Most of the little things people spend each day arguing and striving towards will be essentially rendered moot by the damage we are assuredly doing to our world.
We can fight for all the changes and rights we want. We just can't enjoy them, enforce them or bequeath them without a stable life, a stable populous, a stable government or a stable future.

That is the only real pressing concern I have. If it wasn't for that, I'd think we'd eventually be OK. Well, most of us would be OK. It is our kids, that really seems to be the driving motivator for most change I see. People want to change things for them, to see they do not suffer the same indignities or struggle with the same issues that they had too.
We struggle each day to make things better for them. Or at least, we think we do. In realty most of us, even when we think we are making things better, are making it worse by taking an airline flight, driving hundreds of miles everyday,working and investing in corporations that are defrauding and propagandizing us, stealing our democracy and warping the hearts & minds of our legislators.

It was better when we knew we still had a chance to make it better.

freedom fighter jh

(1,782 posts)
17. Things were better, or at least seemed better, before . . .
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:51 AM
Oct 2014

. . . we became aware that the climate crisis threatens human existence.

The human race faces an enormous challenge and this country's leadership can't get around to dealing with it as the life-threatening crisis it is.

The United States has faced existential crises before -- but face them we did. Not this one, not as a nation. Obama has taken some steps, but not on the scale that is needed.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
18. Better in some ways, worse in others
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:08 AM
Oct 2014

Yes, some things are as good now as they have ever been, or better. OTOH, since you asked, some things that were better in the 70s:


Free or very low cost state and city colleges

No for-profit prisons

less conservative (or you might say less politicized) supreme court

no polarizing right-wing talk radio or fox news

less of a "surveillance state" (even if the reason is that the technology didn't exist to collect private information as it does today)

no wide support for "anti science" positions in public policy

a single breadwinner was more likely to be able to support a family in a middle class lifestyle

foods weren't so full of strange additives, GMO, etc. - at least you knew what you were eating

and sex couldn't kill you.


BumRushDaShow

(128,896 posts)
19. "Better in some ways, worse in others"
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:26 AM
Oct 2014
Yes, some things are as good now as they have ever been, or better. OTOH, since you asked, some things that were better in the 70s:


Free or very low cost state and city colleges


I went to college in the late '70s and the state schools certainly weren't "low cost". The BEOG (later Pell Grant), NDSL, etc., were in full effect to assist - and were not just for "private" colleges.

No for-profit prisons


This is probably true - the PIC took off under Raygun, with the swelling of the existing prisons that could not handle the extra load.

less conservative (or you might say less politicized) supreme court


THIS I disagree with. Nixon appointed 4 justices including the lunatic Rehnquist who went on to seal the fate of the nightmarish Supreme Court of today. Hell - Plessy v Ferguson took almost 60 years (1896 - 1954) to be invalidated by Brown vs Board of Education. I.e., that court has ALWAYS been "politicized" against someone, punctuated by brief periods of lucidity.

no polarizing right-wing talk radio or fox news


There most certainly WERE idiotic RW talk radio hosts in various cities in the '70s (including a few ilk here in Philly). However what changed was the elimination of the "Fairness Doctrine", the introduction of the "syndication model", and general broadcast media deregulation, allowing the RW to buy bundles of stations to spread their vile message on without any balance. This provided a "cheap" solution for station operation, but was something that the left neglected to take advantage of, and when they finally did (e.g., Air America), it was too late.

less of a "surveillance state" (even if the reason is that the technology didn't exist to collect private information as it does today)


????? So the legacy of J. Edgar Hoover didn't exist? The dossiers on a myriad of Civil Rights & anti-war activists and left groups just vanished in the 1970s? No wiretapping (phone bugs), mail interception, etc.?

This has an interesting timeline - http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?nixon_and_watergate_tmln_watergate_campaign_conspiracy=nixon_and_watergate_tmln_illegal_wiretapping___surveillance&timeline=nixon_and_watergate_tmln

no wide support for "anti science" positions in public policy


Except that "Negroes were inferior" and other nonsense that resulted in having to force "Health Classes" to teach how a baby is conceived. And don't let me get started on the LAWS requiring that a woman's husband must consent to her medical procedures (including hysterectomy).

a single breadwinner was more likely to be able to support a family in a middle class lifestyle


This was definitely true. Raygun made sure that this would be ended.

foods weren't so full of strange additives, GMO, etc. - at least you knew what you were eating


The use of "preservatives" started full force after WWII and much of it was never on the label. So you STILL had no idea what you were eating. In fact, the 1970s began a long and winding road in discovering, testing, and banning much of this stuff, but it was often still there. The Nutrition Labeling and Education Act" didn't come about until 1990 to require some sort of more comprehensive standardized labeling of foods.

and sex couldn't kill you.


Unless you were violently raped?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
20. In the 70's, sex could certainly kill you.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:54 AM
Oct 2014

Many who died in the 80's contracted a virus in the 70's. Just as a point of fact.....

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