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Turborama

(22,109 posts)
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:23 AM Oct 2014

A special Venn diagram to pass on to any Islamophobes you may know...





(ISIS is included within the red dot, if anyone wants to update it to add them feel free)

Adding an article that Marmar posted back in DU2, which I found when looking earlier for this diagram.



The Lies of Islamophobia: The Three Unfinished Wars of the West against the Rest

from TomDispatch:




The Lies of Islamophobia
The Three Unfinished Wars of the West against the Rest

By John Feffer


The Muslims were bloodthirsty and treacherous. They conducted a sneak attack against the French army and slaughtered every single soldier, 20,000 in all. More than 1,000 years ago, in the mountain passes of Spain, the Muslim horde cut down the finest soldiers in Charlemagne’s command, including his brave nephew Roland. Then, according to the famous poem that immortalized the tragedy, Charlemagne exacted his revenge by routing the entire Muslim army.

The Song of Roland, an eleventh century rendering in verse of an eighth century battle, is a staple of Western Civilization classes at colleges around the country. A “masterpiece of epic drama,” in the words of its renowned translator Dorothy Sayers, it provides a handy preface for students before they delve into readings on the Crusades that began in 1095. More ominously, the poem has schooled generations of Judeo-Christians to view Muslims as perfidious enemies who once threatened the very foundations of Western civilization.

The problem, however, is that the whole epic is built on a curious falsehood. The army that fell upon Roland and his Frankish soldiers was not Muslim at all. In the real battle of 778, the slayers of the Franks were Christian Basques furious at Charlemagne for pillaging their city of Pamplona. Not epic at all, the battle emerged from a parochial dispute in the complex wars of medieval Spain. Only later, as kings and popes and knights prepared to do battle in the First Crusade, did an anonymous bard repurpose the text to serve the needs of an emerging cross-against-crescent holy war.

....(snip)....

The Crusades Continue

With their irrational fear of spiders, arachnophobes are scared of both harmless daddy longlegs and poisonous brown recluse spiders. In extreme cases, an arachnophobe can break out in a sweat while merely looking at photos of spiders. It is, of course, reasonable to steer clear of black widows. What makes a legitimate fear into an irrational phobia, however, is the tendency to lump all of any group, spiders or humans, into one lethal category and then to exaggerate how threatening they are. Spider bites, after all, are responsible for at most a handful of deaths a year in the United States.

Islamophobia is, similarly, an irrational fear of Islam. Yes, certain Muslim fundamentalists have been responsible for terrorist attacks, certain fantasists about a “global caliphate” continue to plot attacks on perceived enemies, and certain groups like Afghanistan’s Taliban and Somalia’s al-Shabaab practice medieval versions of the religion. But Islamophobes confuse these small parts with the whole and then see terrorist jihad under every Islamic pillow. They break out in a sweat at the mere picture of an imam. ...........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175317/tomgram%3A_john_feffer%2C_crusade_2.0 (the story follows a brief intro)
80 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A special Venn diagram to pass on to any Islamophobes you may know... (Original Post) Turborama Oct 2014 OP
That is one scary looking Venn, with all the Muslims, you trying to fear monger some more? Fred Sanders Oct 2014 #1
Now show the Venn diagram of those who promote equal rights. randome Oct 2014 #2
The same old tune, "they need to be stopped." But what does "stopped" mean? It's like "Whack-A- rhett o rick Oct 2014 #19
Bringing up Southeast Asia pointed to an obvious number 5 and sadly the most likely answer for many. A Simple Game Oct 2014 #29
Yes, it's Whack-A-Mole. The Muslim world is undergoing its own Reformation Period. randome Oct 2014 #35
Fear mongering, that's a statement or proclamation . orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #42
KKK and other American Christian extrmists also oppose "equal rights." hunter Oct 2014 #20
America exports oil at record levels so I think seeing everything in terms of oil is simplistic. randome Oct 2014 #39
It has nothing to do with the levels of oil production in the U.S.A. hunter Oct 2014 #50
+ 1000 orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #43
well shit, of course Islamophobia is a horrid expression of hate cali Oct 2014 #3
MSM say's they're winning, it's not sympathizing with jihads, Do we support killing children ? orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #6
huh? your post hardly makes sense cali Oct 2014 #9
Ah, but does the alienation depend solely on non-Muslims? randome Oct 2014 #10
Your second question and its answer are utter BS. Turborama Oct 2014 #12
It's an eternal conflict, isn't it? randome Oct 2014 #13
There is nothing wrong with supporting freedom of thought and expression, but we have no rhett o rick Oct 2014 #28
Where do you get the idea that they feel the same about us? randome Oct 2014 #30
''The Muslim culture has no concept of romance or love.''? Seriously, you should stop. Turborama Oct 2014 #47
Prove me wrong. randome Oct 2014 #53
The "vast majority of Muslims" refuse to allow what, exactly? Turborama Oct 2014 #62
Arranged marriages. Giving children to husbands. Tell me this isn't a widespread practice. randome Oct 2014 #68
No, *giving children to husbands is not a widespread practice. Turborama Oct 2014 #78
I appreciate being able to have this discussion because I couldn't disagree with you more. rhett o rick Oct 2014 #61
I think we need to have zero relations with get the red out Oct 2014 #65
I am all for protecting the innocent around the world. But that's not at all what we do. rhett o rick Oct 2014 #69
Why bomb anyone? get the red out Oct 2014 #75
What in the world are you talking about? pangaia Oct 2014 #18
All the 'magic clothing' religions are equally ridiculous, IMO. randome Oct 2014 #32
Indonesia, Turkey. cali Oct 2014 #48
I am curious which religion you belong to. One that doesn't put women at a lower level than men. rhett o rick Oct 2014 #71
I've often said the only thing I will ever call myself is a human being. Nothing more, nothing less. randome Oct 2014 #79
I like the sentiment, but don't you belong to the American "club" and the "Democratic" club? nm rhett o rick Oct 2014 #80
I LOVE YOUR POST!!! get the red out Oct 2014 #76
Sorry for Whatever but, I never trivialized anything as in " So What " , orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #16
Again, I fail to see what Fonda has to do with this cali Oct 2014 #22
Not to try to speak for cali but " it sounds like you ostracize a ton of views ." rhett o rick Oct 2014 #24
The Views attached to the diagram were the " Views " I meant or orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #38
Your argument makes no sense. Maybe if you'd use statements of how you feel rhett o rick Oct 2014 #23
Thanks orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #31
Some very good questions Turborama Oct 2014 #8
Yes. More interconnectedness will, in the long run, be the death-knell of fundamentalism. randome Oct 2014 #11
Goodness. You understand that capitalism and communism (as practiced in Russia and China, rhett o rick Oct 2014 #34
Pretty well said. pangaia Oct 2014 #45
Communism as practiced by the old USSR and its satellite nations clearly lost out. randome Oct 2014 #51
oligarchy indeed justabob Oct 2014 #77
Is it fearmongering get the red out Oct 2014 #4
What's an Islamic country? n/t Turborama Oct 2014 #5
Saudi Arabia, Iran, Brunei MNBrewer Oct 2014 #14
Islamic States EX500rider Oct 2014 #33
I'm not sure that's how the term is usually used. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #41
Nearly. The normal term is ''Muslim majority country''. Turborama Oct 2014 #46
Majority Islamic religion get the red out Oct 2014 #63
Well, there aren't "many" of them (Muslim majority countries where there is no religious freedom). Turborama Oct 2014 #73
Some informative reading get the red out Oct 2014 #74
Feminism and Liberalism are synonymous . Unless you mean " good Liberal " like orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #7
No, they're not even close to being synonyms. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #36
I got it and the reading attached, Your diagram showed how we make the exception the rule . orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #54
Thank you get the red out Oct 2014 #64
There are many female Muslims who fight for equal rights but still continue to be Muslim. liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #60
So? get the red out Oct 2014 #66
one of the most dangerous places on earth for women is India, yet we still whereisjustice Oct 2014 #15
+1000 !!!! orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #17
That's a slight exaggeration. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #40
You are wrong. And your response is EXACTLY the problem with Democratic elite whereisjustice Oct 2014 #44
It is a two front attack. One method does not preclude the other. Fighting ISIS rhett o rick Oct 2014 #56
Good pt, Lockheed Martin get's to hire s/w eng and IT from the slums of India to help whereisjustice Oct 2014 #57
That's true get the red out Oct 2014 #67
I think you're being rude in not considering the feelings of... TlalocW Oct 2014 #21
It's rude to actual Venn diagrams. eggplant Oct 2014 #26
true mathphobes wouldn't have clicked through the subject line ;) unblock Oct 2014 #27
At least one American Muslim supports ISIS Nye Bevan Oct 2014 #25
So the red dot should be tangential to the blue lozenge? Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #37
If you think the only American Muslim who supports ISIS Nye Bevan Oct 2014 #49
I think there are about 1000-2000 pixels in the blue lozenge. Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2014 #52
The ambiguos things we are told to fear for 13yrs, is scarey . Ike was right orpupilofnature57 Oct 2014 #55
Bust out the crayons and add some more colors to those circles. ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #58
K&R liberal_at_heart Oct 2014 #59
So, we shouldn't worry about R-W militias, either, because....small in toto? WinkyDink Oct 2014 #70
No, that analogy would be: Don't hate all Americans because a few of them belong to RW militias Turborama Oct 2014 #72
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
2. Now show the Venn diagram of those who promote equal rights.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:28 AM
Oct 2014

You don't need to hate ISIS to take steps to stop them. Outside of pontificating pundits and politicians, I doubt Americans hate ISIS.

But they need to be stopped.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
19. The same old tune, "they need to be stopped." But what does "stopped" mean? It's like "Whack-A-
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:10 AM
Oct 2014

Mole", every head "has to be stopped". And is bombing them the way to "stop" them? It sure doesn't work in Wack-A-Mole and it sure hasn't worked with radical Muslims. Maybe bombing Saudi Arabia would be more effective.
At what cost must they "be stopped". Is it worth it to see Americans die from disease and hunger? To see our infrastructure crumble? To see us lose our democracy. I personally think our crumbling infrastructure is a much bigger security risk than ISIS.
And who says they "need to be stopped"? The same H. Clinton and neocon hawks that thought we needed to invade Iraq? Fool you once, shame on them, fool you again and again and again, shame on you.
Why do they "need to be stopped"? Pick one of the following;
1. If they aren't stopped, the Communists will take over all of Southeast Asia then the world.
2. We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
3. We must fight them there so we don't fight them here.
4. They have "yellow-cake".

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
29. Bringing up Southeast Asia pointed to an obvious number 5 and sadly the most likely answer for many.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:46 AM
Oct 2014

5. They don't look like us.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
35. Yes, it's Whack-A-Mole. The Muslim world is undergoing its own Reformation Period.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:05 PM
Oct 2014

It's going to be messy, to say the least. Bombing is never the answer but I won't hold it against someone trying to stop the murderous rampage of ISIS because I don't have a better idea myself.

I couldn't care less what the old neocons think. I think today, regarding ISIS, they need to be stopped.

And of course America is in no danger from ISIS. Ignore the fear-mongering but keep our eyes open and I think it's right to try and stop ISIS.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

hunter

(38,309 posts)
20. KKK and other American Christian extrmists also oppose "equal rights."
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:12 AM
Oct 2014

Violent "Fundamentalists" of all religions and ideologies, including large fractions of U.S.A. police and military cultures, are all dangerous.

I don't know why these violent Islamic extremists think beheading people will change things here. We have cops here in the U.S.A. who shoot unarmed people in the back and light babies on fire, so what do we really care about a few dead hostages?

It's not about the hostages anyways. It's all about maintaining control of the petroleum markets, gangster style. Petroleum is a wicked drug. Modern industrial economies are addicted to it.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
39. America exports oil at record levels so I think seeing everything in terms of oil is simplistic.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:08 PM
Oct 2014

Obama is not on some ill-defined mission of conquest, as Bush, Junior was. The entire invasion of Iraq was a net loss for us. It did nothing but turn a relative peaceful landscape into turmoil.

I still think it's right to try and stop ISIS.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

hunter

(38,309 posts)
50. It has nothing to do with the levels of oil production in the U.S.A.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:12 PM
Oct 2014

It has to do with maintaining the close relationship between the dollar and petroleum.

The U.S.A. has no tolerance for any sort of international petroleum trade that potentially weakens the U.S. dollar.

If an oil exporting nation respects the U.S. dollar then the U.S.A. is fine with them, even if that nation does not respect the human rights of their own people. If an oil exporting nation does not respect the U.S. dollar (think Iran, Iraq, Venezuela...) the U.S.A. hits them with economic sanctions, "black ops," and bombs.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
3. well shit, of course Islamophobia is a horrid expression of hate
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:30 AM
Oct 2014

and I like the diagram, but I don't think it takes quite a few factors into account. Are we increasing sympathizers for militant jihadism? by how many/much? Is the current success of IS(IS) winning supporters, not just those actively joining to fight, but those who sympathize and support? How do we deal with the alienation of Muslims in so many parts of the world?

I find it very difficult to have meaningful discourse on these issues.

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
6. MSM say's they're winning, it's not sympathizing with jihads, Do we support killing children ?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:46 AM
Oct 2014

Do we support Assad ? Alienation is as old as civilization, we deal with it like we've always dealt with it . Did Hanoi Jane win the hearts and minds of anyone ? and were they "Sympathizers " of the Viet cong ?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
9. huh? your post hardly makes sense
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:52 AM
Oct 2014

so what if alienation is as old as civilization? If alienation is a large enough force, and depending on what it's rooted in, it's not something that can just be shrugged off. Your comment is as meaningless as someone who says "poverty has always been with us"- as if that was actually a reason not to address it.

Your post is full of lame bromides and non-sequiturs. You address... nada. What does Jane Fonda have to do with anything?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
10. Ah, but does the alienation depend solely on non-Muslims?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:02 AM
Oct 2014

Do Muslims want to 'fit in' in any meaningful way with the rest of the world? Not much, from what we've seen so far.

For the most part, isolationism stems from Muslims themselves. You can't ask a Muslim woman if she wants to go dancing because it's forbidden. You can't ask if she'll go on a 10 kilometer run with you because it's forbidden. The veils and the magic clothes and all that simply brand them as apart from everyone else.

Shouldn't it be more of a 2-way street? If they want to be accepted, should they not make at least some token gesture to fit in?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
13. It's an eternal conflict, isn't it?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:18 AM
Oct 2014

Do we support freedom of thought and expression? If so, does that apply to Muslim women being forced to wear veils and other 'magic clothes'?

Is this freedom of religion or is it subjugation? It's not always a bright line that defines the difference.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"
[/center][/font][hr]

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
28. There is nothing wrong with supporting freedom of thought and expression, but we have no
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:29 AM
Oct 2014

right to force those values on anyone. Besides how hard are you fighting for freedom of thought and expression here in RiverCity? Defense of the powerful NSA/CIA Security State isn't supporting "freedom of thought and expression".
Yes, I believe Muslims don't treat females right, but they feel the same about us. Who is right? There are no universal values. Freedom, especially isn't a universal value. People that think they know the universal values are audacious. And those that think they should force "their" universal values on others are dangerous.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
30. Where do you get the idea that they feel the same about us?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:55 AM
Oct 2014

Are they working hard to subjugate American women? No. Is the Western world trying -however tepidly- to change the situation for Muslim women and minorities? Yes. And I think we should do more to encourage them to open up their societies. Withhold trading privileges, etc.

It is a false equivalency, IMO, to simply say both worlds are the same, simply on different hemispheres. The Muslim world is not America with a different set of values. It is different on a fundamental level.

The Muslim culture has no concept of romance or love. That is a major difference right there, IMO. And why they are so vicious toward one another.

Who was it who said, "Beauty killed the beast?" The way to 'tame' Muslim culture is to have them accept the concept of love and romance. I don't know how to do that -and bombing certainly isn't going to help- but a merging of cultures must occur at some point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
53. Prove me wrong.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:17 PM
Oct 2014

Okay, obviously the concept exists in the same sense that the concept of marriage equality exists. But the vast majority of Muslims refuse to allow it, don't they? Women still must be covered and submissive. Gays must still be disowned or simply killed, right?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
62. The "vast majority of Muslims" refuse to allow what, exactly?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:29 PM
Oct 2014

If you want proof of how "Muslim culture" works you need to go to a Muslim majority country or community and see for yourself.

"Muslims live in many different countries and communities, and it can be difficult to isolate points of cultural unity among Muslims." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_culture

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
68. Arranged marriages. Giving children to husbands. Tell me this isn't a widespread practice.
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:14 AM
Oct 2014

I never said I thought all of Muslim culture was the same. I'm saying that too much of it is abhorrent. They need to join the 21st century and I think that is happening but it's going to be a long, messy process just as the European Reformation Period was.

Tell me that love and romance exist when a child is given to a husband. Tell me that love and romance exist when gays are stoned to death or a woman is killed because she was raped. The Muslim culture -in general- lacks this point of 'connection' with the West.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
78. No, *giving children to husbands is not a widespread practice.
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 10:18 AM
Oct 2014

And, arranged marriages are a part of many cultures, sadly. This does not mean that love and romance do not exist in those cultures.

I have lived in the world's largest Muslim majority country for nearly a decade, have inlaws and friends who are Muslim and see a lot of deep love and romantic behavior all the time.



*whatever that even means.

(have you got any sources to back up all your claims, btw?)

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
61. I appreciate being able to have this discussion because I couldn't disagree with you more.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:08 PM
Oct 2014

"Where do you get the idea that they feel the same about us?" What I said is we don't agree with how they treat females there. I am sure they don't agree with how we treat females here. Of course we think our values are right and their's are wrong, but since there really is no universal set of values, we must walk softly in trying to convince others that our values trump theirs. Heavy-handed attempts not only always fail, often they make things worse. The West has been meddling in the Middle East for decades and it's clear to me that we've made things much worse.

This is an excellent article and thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025623375

However much we might wish it were so, there are effectively no universally agreed essential values, and we have had little success, anywhere in the world, forcing people to trade their values for ours. Despite our collective spending of trillions of dollars fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan to win over hearts and minds, many – perhaps most – Afghans do not want to see girls in school; have little interest in what we call democracy; believe our harping about corruption is extravagantly hypocritical; and would rather grow poppies than carrots.


You said:

"The way to 'tame' Muslim culture is to have them accept the concept of love and romance."

Wow, if that statement doesn't scream "American Exceptionalism, I don't know what does. The other word that screams out is assimilation. Force them all to go to our schools and learn our values. Didn't work so well with the Native Americans.

Before we go looking to force other peoples to have our values, we need to look at our values. I think we, the wealthiest country in the world rank 54th in infant mortality. What kind of values allows that? But we rank #1 for the number of Muslims we kill. It's more important to us and our values to spend our wealth on killing Muslims than saving children's lives.

And again you say:

"but a merging of cultures must occur at some point. "
Really? If we wanted to do that, and I am totally against it, we are going about it all wrong.

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
65. I think we need to have zero relations with
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 08:55 AM
Oct 2014

countries that kill gay people and treat women like possessions.

But of course some lady might get a cat-call from a construction worker in the US today, that's just as bad of course as an "honor killing" with no punishment for the murderers. And yes, US women will be raped today, and when they tell law enforcement they might not do much. But she won't be executed (but you know, we are the west, we don't know good or bad, so maybe she would be better off dead, right?) All cultural practices are equal.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
69. I am all for protecting the innocent around the world. But that's not at all what we do.
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:18 AM
Oct 2014

Under the guise of protecting the innocent we kill and displace millions. Why bomb ISIS and not Saudi Arabia?

At least one person here believes we need to "tame the Muslims". Even if we assume our values are better than "Muslims" we have a long way to go taming our own selves before we start taming others.

Again I ask, Why bomb ISIS and not Saudi Arabia? It's about oil and corporate profits and not helping the innocents.



get the red out

(13,461 posts)
75. Why bomb anyone?
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 10:06 AM
Oct 2014

Why not just completely leave these horrific countries alone? I HATE these countries, I want NOTHING to do with them, bombs cost too much to waste on them, that money needs to help our own citizens.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
18. What in the world are you talking about?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:03 AM
Oct 2014

I have seen hundreds of Muslim women dancing. IN FACT, I have even danced with a few of 'them.'
And I have seen Muslim women running. I have seen Muslim women even DRIVING.. Yes, driving. In fact I was in a car with 'one' and she was actually driving a , a. a STICK SHIFT ! Can you believe it?
Wow. I must be exceptional.

How about the 'magic clothes' H H The Dalai Lama wears? Or Ayang Rinpoche, or, or... thousands of Catholic priests, or...Protestant ministers, or, or, or..

Such simplistic views is exactly what that diagram is about.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
32. All the 'magic clothing' religions are equally ridiculous, IMO.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:01 PM
Oct 2014

And of course there are outliers in the things I mentioned. Where did you see Muslim women dancing? In America? In the relative few who decided to break free of their programming?

I don't think you can ignore the fact that the vast majority of Muslim cultures disdain such things. And not just simply on the level of, say, old-time Baptists looking down their noses on dancing. Women are required to dress appropriately and to submit themselves to stoning in some parts of that culture if they have the temerity to be raped.

The vast majority of Muslim women in Muslim cultures, from what I can see, are required to be submissive.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
71. I am curious which religion you belong to. One that doesn't put women at a lower level than men.
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:26 AM
Oct 2014

One that doesn't wear "magic clothing". Because those qualifications rule out a lot of Western religions.

Personally, I'm a Pastafarian. The only downside is I will never be able to eat meatballs again.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
79. I've often said the only thing I will ever call myself is a human being. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 12:16 PM
Oct 2014

Every other 'club', by design, designates everyone outside the club as 'other'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
16. Sorry for Whatever but, I never trivialized anything as in " So What " ,
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:46 AM
Oct 2014

Also in 1972 Jane Fonda " Sympathizing " with our enemy was seen as nothing less than treason, we see in retrospect, she was just in her views and sympathies .Being ostracized is caused by unfounded fear and disdain and not necessarily " Poverty " a lame attempt for the second time to assume what my "meaningless Comment " was or not saying, but as you said " I find it Very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on these issues " it sounds like you ostracize a ton of views .

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
24. Not to try to speak for cali but " it sounds like you ostracize a ton of views ."
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:19 AM
Oct 2014

demonstrates what she is saying, "I find it very difficult to have meaningful discourse on these issues." The ton of views you refer to are not apparent here. Show us some "meaningful discourses" related to the "ton of views" you proclaim exist.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
23. Your argument makes no sense. Maybe if you'd use statements of how you feel
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:13 AM
Oct 2014

you'd have better luck than asking absurd questions trying to make a point. Just a suggestion.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
8. Some very good questions
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:51 AM
Oct 2014

Which reach to the core of the problem. Sorry I don't have any answers apart from to say that Indonesia has been doing a good job with reforming and educating the alienated.

Here's one of their recent initiatives...

Indonesia's Government reforming Islamic tertiary education to give students 'broader knowledge'

The chair of Indonesia's taskforce for reforming Islamic education says the government wants to improve the quality of religious teaching in the country.

Dr Jamhari Makruf, who is also the vice rector at the State Islamic University in Jakarta, says the nationwide effort to reform the education system is aimed at providing Muslim students with a "broader knowledge" of the world.

"We are forming our Islamic higher education in order to be part of the national development as a whole," he told Asia Pacific.

"I think it's true that Muslims also should engage in global context and global issues that we're dealing with right now, peace and conflicts, and also democracy and also specific values and also the advancement of technology.

"It used to be their (mobility) is limited only in religious institutions only, such as Islamic education, the Ministry of Religious Affairs or Islamic court, but by giving them a more broader knowledge, then they can be part of the economic development, part of the high-tech development or political development also."

Indonesia's push for Islamic education reform comes amid apparent growing support from militant factions of Indonesia's jihadi community for the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS) in Iraq.

Sidney Jones, the director of the Jakarta-based Institute for Policy Analysis of Conflict (IPAC), says that some Indonesian jihadists, as seen on many extremist websites, are raising money and pledging allegiance to the ISIS.

Dr Makruf acknowledges there are a "small number of Islamic institutions that are teaching radical items".

He says Australia has a role to play in Indonesia's education reform agenda, which encourages more moderate Islamic teachings.

&quot Australia) should be part of that because we are good neighbours actually, we are neighbouring and what happens in Australia and what happens in Indonesia will influence each other, that's the basic premise.

"Islamic education actually caters more for girls rather than boys. So I think if Australia's concerned, to alleviate poverty and also to help girls to improve their quality of life, I think Islamic education is the best to invest in that.

"Part of the cause of radicalism in Islamist schools is because they've been neglected by many in the development. If you look at the budget for allocations for Islamist schools before 2003, it's very small."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/an-indonesia-govt-reforming-islamic-education/5529344

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
11. Yes. More interconnectedness will, in the long run, be the death-knell of fundamentalism.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:13 AM
Oct 2014

Just as Capitalism (for all its flaws) 'won out' over Communism.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
34. Goodness. You understand that capitalism and communism (as practiced in Russia and China,
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:04 PM
Oct 2014

which would make Marx cry) are not mutually exclusive. China, who professes to be communist, are the biggest capitalist state in the world. Capitalism winning out over communism sounds good for the movies, but in reality it's more like oligarchical capitalism wins out over oligarchical communism. The key word is "oligarchy". And another thing, capitalism does not equate with democracy. Capitalism is in fact not compatible with democracy.

And another thing, there will never be a "death-knell" for fundamentalism. You can't simply kill them all and be done with it. In fact capitalism promotes fundamentalism. Capitalism thrives on inequality and that promotes fundamentalism.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
45. Pretty well said.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:44 PM
Oct 2014

People mix up terms so much it is hard to important to at least see, if not totally understand, to discuss anything. And I am still learning.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
51. Communism as practiced by the old USSR and its satellite nations clearly lost out.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:12 PM
Oct 2014

You can say we didn't 'win' but that's a minor point, IMO. And Reagan didn't do shit about it, he was just 'lucky' to be on duty when it occurred.

Yeah, 'death knell' is too strong. But capitalism, despite all its flaws, is still preferred by the vast majority of countries. And equality for women and other minorities is still preferred by that majority, despite many, many setbacks and intransigence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

justabob

(3,069 posts)
77. oligarchy indeed
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 10:14 AM
Oct 2014

Rather than simply promoting inequalities, etc that you mention, and the religious kind of fundy-ism, capitalism itself could be considered fundamentalist. It is a religion of sorts for too many people.

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
4. Is it fearmongering
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 08:37 AM
Oct 2014

To take issue with human rights issues in many Islamic countries, especially toward women? If that's the case, my feminism negates my proper liberalism. Actually, this os one reason I sm not a good liberal.

EX500rider

(10,835 posts)
33. Islamic States
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:02 PM
Oct 2014

Islamic states (dark green), states where Islam is the official religion (light green), secular states (blue) and other (orange), among countries with Muslim majority.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
41. I'm not sure that's how the term is usually used.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:11 PM
Oct 2014

I think that most people use "Islamic states" to mean either "all states with a Muslim majority" - i.e. all the colours on your map - or "states where Islam is the official religion" - i.e. both shades of green, and arguably some of the orange as well.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
46. Nearly. The normal term is ''Muslim majority country''.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:51 PM
Oct 2014

For example, Indonesia is the largest Muslim majority country and is neither an "Islamic state" or a state where Islam is the "official" religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
63. Majority Islamic religion
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 08:50 AM
Oct 2014

One of the countries where there is no religious freedom, where going from being a Muslim to identifying as a non-muslim is illegal. The United States isn't a technical democracy either. And do you know what the meaning of is, "is"? All those kinds of comments meant to render someone's opinion meaningless by verbiage.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
73. Well, there aren't "many" of them (Muslim majority countries where there is no religious freedom).
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:55 AM
Oct 2014

Additionally, I genuinely don't know of a country where it's illegal to stop being a Muslim and am interested to find out which ones have that law.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
36. No, they're not even close to being synonyms.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:05 PM
Oct 2014

"Feminist" and "liberal" (and antifeminist and illiberal) are both properties a political position can have.

Most feminist political positions are liberal, but some are not.

It probably *is* true that all antifeminist positions are automatically also illiberal, though.

So feminism is almost, but not quite, a subset of liberalism, but not even close to being a synonym. There are plenty of liberal issues which are nothing to do with gender politics.


Feminist Nothing to do with feminism antifeminist

Liberal Lots Lots None

Neither A few Lots None

Illiberal A very few Lots Lots


Edit: my diagram has failed. Anyone know how to make this into a nice neat table, please?

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
54. I got it and the reading attached, Your diagram showed how we make the exception the rule .
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:29 PM
Oct 2014

I was side tracked by an authoritarian or two, and did not address the post itself, I thought it was excellent .

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
66. So?
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:01 AM
Oct 2014

Does that mean that they don't have to fight to get the least right in those majority Muslim countries? Does that mean a lot of their lives aren't in danger in those majority Muslim countries? Will that keep the religious police from beating them if they aren't dressed to suit them in Saudi Arabia? Will being Muslim keep them from being murdered by their family, in many instances, if they are raped and therefor impure?

Her religion doesn't matter, what matters is that she has so few rights as a human being. I don't care what a woman's religion is, I care if she has rights or not.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
15. one of the most dangerous places on earth for women is India, yet we still
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:24 AM
Oct 2014

ship millions of jobs to India with no stings attached. Without those jobs, the US continues to suppress wages and opportunities, hurting millions of citizens.

There is not a single voice from the Democratic Party elite about this exploitative practice of sending jobs to human rights abusers in Asia. That's because many of the Democratic Party elite profit from it.

If ISIS really wanted to hurt the US they would agree to take US jobs for $2/day with no benefits. They would be damaging millions of US workers without the hassle that comes with cruise missile attacks.

That's how China and India do it.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
40. That's a slight exaggeration.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:09 PM
Oct 2014

Life expectancy for womenis ranked about 150 out of 193 countries at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
(For men it's 143rd)

So it's not good, but it's not one of the most dangerous places on earth for women, unless you're putting nearly a quarter of the world's nations in that category.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
44. You are wrong. And your response is EXACTLY the problem with Democratic elite
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:39 PM
Oct 2014

and the arrogance which places profit and political convenience over quality of life.


No. 4 India

Dangers: female feoticide, infanticide, human trafficking.

India’s Central Bureau of Investigation estimated that in 2009 about 90% of trafficking took place within the country and that there were some 3 million prostitutes, of which about 40 percent were children.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghancasserly/2011/06/15/most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman/



India
Despite having the world’s largest democracy, famous examples of gang rape and hangings demonstrate what a perilous place India can be for women. Researchers estimate that there have been 50 million cases of female infanticide or foeticide over the last three decades. And even if you get to live, child marriage and high levels of trafficking still cast a shadow over the safety of females.
http://www.theneweconomy.com/insight/10-of-the-most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman


Oh, and let's not forget NAFTA and Mexico. When do we start bombing?

Mexico
With 4,000 cases of women disappearing in 2011-2012, and 22.7 murders for every 100,000 in Chihuahua state in 2012, you’d think the Mexican government and police would do everything possible to protect their inhabitants. Sadly women are massively let down by Mexico’s legal system, which does not protect against domestic and sexual violence. There are certain punishments set out for perpetrators of sexual violence against women, however judiciary officials often weight up the latter’s chastity when it comes to deciding a sentence – contradicting international standards. The unfortunate outcome of all of this is that few women come forward to report sexual offences. And when they do, they are frequently met with suspicion, apathy and disregard.
http://www.theneweconomy.com/insight/10-of-the-most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
56. It is a two front attack. One method does not preclude the other. Fighting ISIS
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:44 PM
Oct 2014

is not intended to protect the US but to keep the mideast in turmoil and keep the profits up for the MIC.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
57. Good pt, Lockheed Martin get's to hire s/w eng and IT from the slums of India to help
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:53 PM
Oct 2014

build the weapons that bomb the slums of Iraq and Syria. It's win-win!

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
67. That's true
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 09:03 AM
Oct 2014

But it doesn't diminish other systematic abuses of women, or mean they shouldn't be spoken of.

Though your point DEFINITELY needs to be on the front burner of politics in this country.

TlalocW

(15,379 posts)
21. I think you're being rude in not considering the feelings of...
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:12 AM
Oct 2014

Mathphobes with that Venn Diagram, who are probably breaking out in a sweat just looking at it right now.

TlalocW

eggplant

(3,911 posts)
26. It's rude to actual Venn diagrams.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:24 AM
Oct 2014

Venn diagrams don't show relative sizes -- they only show logical relations between finite sets. Sticking numbers in them is just silly.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
37. So the red dot should be tangential to the blue lozenge?
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 12:05 PM
Oct 2014

I doubt you'd get a whole pixel of intersection.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
49. If you think the only American Muslim who supports ISIS
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:11 PM
Oct 2014

is the guy who spilled his guts to the New York Daily News, then yes.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
52. I think there are about 1000-2000 pixels in the blue lozenge.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 01:14 PM
Oct 2014

So I guess each pixel represents on the order of 1000 people.

How many Americans do you think support ISIS? I would be unsurprised if it were less than 1000, and surprised if it were multiple thousands.

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