General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA special Venn diagram to pass on to any Islamophobes you may know...
(ISIS is included within the red dot, if anyone wants to update it to add them feel free)
Adding an article that Marmar posted back in DU2, which I found when looking earlier for this diagram.
The Lies of Islamophobia: The Three Unfinished Wars of the West against the Rest
from TomDispatch:
The Lies of Islamophobia
The Three Unfinished Wars of the West against the Rest
By John Feffer
The Muslims were bloodthirsty and treacherous. They conducted a sneak attack against the French army and slaughtered every single soldier, 20,000 in all. More than 1,000 years ago, in the mountain passes of Spain, the Muslim horde cut down the finest soldiers in Charlemagnes command, including his brave nephew Roland. Then, according to the famous poem that immortalized the tragedy, Charlemagne exacted his revenge by routing the entire Muslim army.
The Song of Roland, an eleventh century rendering in verse of an eighth century battle, is a staple of Western Civilization classes at colleges around the country. A masterpiece of epic drama, in the words of its renowned translator Dorothy Sayers, it provides a handy preface for students before they delve into readings on the Crusades that began in 1095. More ominously, the poem has schooled generations of Judeo-Christians to view Muslims as perfidious enemies who once threatened the very foundations of Western civilization.
The problem, however, is that the whole epic is built on a curious falsehood. The army that fell upon Roland and his Frankish soldiers was not Muslim at all. In the real battle of 778, the slayers of the Franks were Christian Basques furious at Charlemagne for pillaging their city of Pamplona. Not epic at all, the battle emerged from a parochial dispute in the complex wars of medieval Spain. Only later, as kings and popes and knights prepared to do battle in the First Crusade, did an anonymous bard repurpose the text to serve the needs of an emerging cross-against-crescent holy war.
....(snip)....
The Crusades Continue
With their irrational fear of spiders, arachnophobes are scared of both harmless daddy longlegs and poisonous brown recluse spiders. In extreme cases, an arachnophobe can break out in a sweat while merely looking at photos of spiders. It is, of course, reasonable to steer clear of black widows. What makes a legitimate fear into an irrational phobia, however, is the tendency to lump all of any group, spiders or humans, into one lethal category and then to exaggerate how threatening they are. Spider bites, after all, are responsible for at most a handful of deaths a year in the United States.
Islamophobia is, similarly, an irrational fear of Islam. Yes, certain Muslim fundamentalists have been responsible for terrorist attacks, certain fantasists about a global caliphate continue to plot attacks on perceived enemies, and certain groups like Afghanistans Taliban and Somalias al-Shabaab practice medieval versions of the religion. But Islamophobes confuse these small parts with the whole and then see terrorist jihad under every Islamic pillow. They break out in a sweat at the mere picture of an imam. ...........(more)
The complete piece is at: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175317/tomgram%3A_john_feffer%2C_crusade_2.0 (the story follows a brief intro)
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)You don't need to hate ISIS to take steps to stop them. Outside of pontificating pundits and politicians, I doubt Americans hate ISIS.
But they need to be stopped.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Mole", every head "has to be stopped". And is bombing them the way to "stop" them? It sure doesn't work in Wack-A-Mole and it sure hasn't worked with radical Muslims. Maybe bombing Saudi Arabia would be more effective.
At what cost must they "be stopped". Is it worth it to see Americans die from disease and hunger? To see our infrastructure crumble? To see us lose our democracy. I personally think our crumbling infrastructure is a much bigger security risk than ISIS.
And who says they "need to be stopped"? The same H. Clinton and neocon hawks that thought we needed to invade Iraq? Fool you once, shame on them, fool you again and again and again, shame on you.
Why do they "need to be stopped"? Pick one of the following;
1. If they aren't stopped, the Communists will take over all of Southeast Asia then the world.
2. We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
3. We must fight them there so we don't fight them here.
4. They have "yellow-cake".
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)5. They don't look like us.
randome
(34,845 posts)It's going to be messy, to say the least. Bombing is never the answer but I won't hold it against someone trying to stop the murderous rampage of ISIS because I don't have a better idea myself.
I couldn't care less what the old neocons think. I think today, regarding ISIS, they need to be stopped.
And of course America is in no danger from ISIS. Ignore the fear-mongering but keep our eyes open and I think it's right to try and stop ISIS.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)hunter
(38,240 posts)Violent "Fundamentalists" of all religions and ideologies, including large fractions of U.S.A. police and military cultures, are all dangerous.
I don't know why these violent Islamic extremists think beheading people will change things here. We have cops here in the U.S.A. who shoot unarmed people in the back and light babies on fire, so what do we really care about a few dead hostages?
It's not about the hostages anyways. It's all about maintaining control of the petroleum markets, gangster style. Petroleum is a wicked drug. Modern industrial economies are addicted to it.
randome
(34,845 posts)Obama is not on some ill-defined mission of conquest, as Bush, Junior was. The entire invasion of Iraq was a net loss for us. It did nothing but turn a relative peaceful landscape into turmoil.
I still think it's right to try and stop ISIS.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
hunter
(38,240 posts)It has to do with maintaining the close relationship between the dollar and petroleum.
The U.S.A. has no tolerance for any sort of international petroleum trade that potentially weakens the U.S. dollar.
If an oil exporting nation respects the U.S. dollar then the U.S.A. is fine with them, even if that nation does not respect the human rights of their own people. If an oil exporting nation does not respect the U.S. dollar (think Iran, Iraq, Venezuela...) the U.S.A. hits them with economic sanctions, "black ops," and bombs.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)and I like the diagram, but I don't think it takes quite a few factors into account. Are we increasing sympathizers for militant jihadism? by how many/much? Is the current success of IS(IS) winning supporters, not just those actively joining to fight, but those who sympathize and support? How do we deal with the alienation of Muslims in so many parts of the world?
I find it very difficult to have meaningful discourse on these issues.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Do we support Assad ? Alienation is as old as civilization, we deal with it like we've always dealt with it . Did Hanoi Jane win the hearts and minds of anyone ? and were they "Sympathizers " of the Viet cong ?
cali
(114,904 posts)so what if alienation is as old as civilization? If alienation is a large enough force, and depending on what it's rooted in, it's not something that can just be shrugged off. Your comment is as meaningless as someone who says "poverty has always been with us"- as if that was actually a reason not to address it.
Your post is full of lame bromides and non-sequiturs. You address... nada. What does Jane Fonda have to do with anything?
randome
(34,845 posts)Do Muslims want to 'fit in' in any meaningful way with the rest of the world? Not much, from what we've seen so far.
For the most part, isolationism stems from Muslims themselves. You can't ask a Muslim woman if she wants to go dancing because it's forbidden. You can't ask if she'll go on a 10 kilometer run with you because it's forbidden. The veils and the magic clothes and all that simply brand them as apart from everyone else.
Shouldn't it be more of a 2-way street? If they want to be accepted, should they not make at least some token gesture to fit in?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
Turborama
(22,109 posts)And the uninformed stereotypes just continue.
randome
(34,845 posts)Do we support freedom of thought and expression? If so, does that apply to Muslim women being forced to wear veils and other 'magic clothes'?
Is this freedom of religion or is it subjugation? It's not always a bright line that defines the difference.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)right to force those values on anyone. Besides how hard are you fighting for freedom of thought and expression here in RiverCity? Defense of the powerful NSA/CIA Security State isn't supporting "freedom of thought and expression".
Yes, I believe Muslims don't treat females right, but they feel the same about us. Who is right? There are no universal values. Freedom, especially isn't a universal value. People that think they know the universal values are audacious. And those that think they should force "their" universal values on others are dangerous.
randome
(34,845 posts)Are they working hard to subjugate American women? No. Is the Western world trying -however tepidly- to change the situation for Muslim women and minorities? Yes. And I think we should do more to encourage them to open up their societies. Withhold trading privileges, etc.
It is a false equivalency, IMO, to simply say both worlds are the same, simply on different hemispheres. The Muslim world is not America with a different set of values. It is different on a fundamental level.
The Muslim culture has no concept of romance or love. That is a major difference right there, IMO. And why they are so vicious toward one another.
Who was it who said, "Beauty killed the beast?" The way to 'tame' Muslim culture is to have them accept the concept of love and romance. I don't know how to do that -and bombing certainly isn't going to help- but a merging of cultures must occur at some point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
Turborama
(22,109 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Okay, obviously the concept exists in the same sense that the concept of marriage equality exists. But the vast majority of Muslims refuse to allow it, don't they? Women still must be covered and submissive. Gays must still be disowned or simply killed, right?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
Turborama
(22,109 posts)If you want proof of how "Muslim culture" works you need to go to a Muslim majority country or community and see for yourself.
"Muslims live in many different countries and communities, and it can be difficult to isolate points of cultural unity among Muslims." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_culture
randome
(34,845 posts)I never said I thought all of Muslim culture was the same. I'm saying that too much of it is abhorrent. They need to join the 21st century and I think that is happening but it's going to be a long, messy process just as the European Reformation Period was.
Tell me that love and romance exist when a child is given to a husband. Tell me that love and romance exist when gays are stoned to death or a woman is killed because she was raped. The Muslim culture -in general- lacks this point of 'connection' with the West.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]
Turborama
(22,109 posts)And, arranged marriages are a part of many cultures, sadly. This does not mean that love and romance do not exist in those cultures.
I have lived in the world's largest Muslim majority country for nearly a decade, have inlaws and friends who are Muslim and see a lot of deep love and romantic behavior all the time.
*whatever that even means.
(have you got any sources to back up all your claims, btw?)
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"Where do you get the idea that they feel the same about us?" What I said is we don't agree with how they treat females there. I am sure they don't agree with how we treat females here. Of course we think our values are right and their's are wrong, but since there really is no universal set of values, we must walk softly in trying to convince others that our values trump theirs. Heavy-handed attempts not only always fail, often they make things worse. The West has been meddling in the Middle East for decades and it's clear to me that we've made things much worse.
This is an excellent article and thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025623375
You said:
Wow, if that statement doesn't scream "American Exceptionalism, I don't know what does. The other word that screams out is assimilation. Force them all to go to our schools and learn our values. Didn't work so well with the Native Americans.
Before we go looking to force other peoples to have our values, we need to look at our values. I think we, the wealthiest country in the world rank 54th in infant mortality. What kind of values allows that? But we rank #1 for the number of Muslims we kill. It's more important to us and our values to spend our wealth on killing Muslims than saving children's lives.
And again you say:
get the red out
(13,456 posts)countries that kill gay people and treat women like possessions.
But of course some lady might get a cat-call from a construction worker in the US today, that's just as bad of course as an "honor killing" with no punishment for the murderers. And yes, US women will be raped today, and when they tell law enforcement they might not do much. But she won't be executed (but you know, we are the west, we don't know good or bad, so maybe she would be better off dead, right?) All cultural practices are equal.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Under the guise of protecting the innocent we kill and displace millions. Why bomb ISIS and not Saudi Arabia?
At least one person here believes we need to "tame the Muslims". Even if we assume our values are better than "Muslims" we have a long way to go taming our own selves before we start taming others.
Again I ask, Why bomb ISIS and not Saudi Arabia? It's about oil and corporate profits and not helping the innocents.
get the red out
(13,456 posts)Why not just completely leave these horrific countries alone? I HATE these countries, I want NOTHING to do with them, bombs cost too much to waste on them, that money needs to help our own citizens.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I have seen hundreds of Muslim women dancing. IN FACT, I have even danced with a few of 'them.'
And I have seen Muslim women running. I have seen Muslim women even DRIVING.. Yes, driving. In fact I was in a car with 'one' and she was actually driving a , a. a STICK SHIFT ! Can you believe it?
Wow. I must be exceptional.
How about the 'magic clothes' H H The Dalai Lama wears? Or Ayang Rinpoche, or, or... thousands of Catholic priests, or...Protestant ministers, or, or, or..
Such simplistic views is exactly what that diagram is about.
randome
(34,845 posts)And of course there are outliers in the things I mentioned. Where did you see Muslim women dancing? In America? In the relative few who decided to break free of their programming?
I don't think you can ignore the fact that the vast majority of Muslim cultures disdain such things. And not just simply on the level of, say, old-time Baptists looking down their noses on dancing. Women are required to dress appropriately and to submit themselves to stoning in some parts of that culture if they have the temerity to be raped.
The vast majority of Muslim women in Muslim cultures, from what I can see, are required to be submissive.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
cali
(114,904 posts)I think you're confused and ill-informed.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)One that doesn't wear "magic clothing". Because those qualifications rule out a lot of Western religions.
Personally, I'm a Pastafarian. The only downside is I will never be able to eat meatballs again.
randome
(34,845 posts)Every other 'club', by design, designates everyone outside the club as 'other'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)get the red out
(13,456 posts)You've got the guts to tell it like it is and I LOVE IT! Thank you!
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Also in 1972 Jane Fonda " Sympathizing " with our enemy was seen as nothing less than treason, we see in retrospect, she was just in her views and sympathies .Being ostracized is caused by unfounded fear and disdain and not necessarily " Poverty " a lame attempt for the second time to assume what my "meaningless Comment " was or not saying, but as you said " I find it Very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on these issues " it sounds like you ostracize a ton of views .
cali
(114,904 posts)and please try writing a coherent sentence.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)demonstrates what she is saying, "I find it very difficult to have meaningful discourse on these issues." The ton of views you refer to are not apparent here. Show us some "meaningful discourses" related to the "ton of views" you proclaim exist.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)" Proclaimed " .
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)you'd have better luck than asking absurd questions trying to make a point. Just a suggestion.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Turborama
(22,109 posts)Which reach to the core of the problem. Sorry I don't have any answers apart from to say that Indonesia has been doing a good job with reforming and educating the alienated.
Here's one of their recent initiatives...
Indonesia's Government reforming Islamic tertiary education to give students 'broader knowledge'
The chair of Indonesia's taskforce for reforming Islamic education says the government wants to improve the quality of religious teaching in the country.
Dr Jamhari Makruf, who is also the vice rector at the State Islamic University in Jakarta, says the nationwide effort to reform the education system is aimed at providing Muslim students with a "broader knowledge" of the world.
"We are forming our Islamic higher education in order to be part of the national development as a whole," he told Asia Pacific.
"I think it's true that Muslims also should engage in global context and global issues that we're dealing with right now, peace and conflicts, and also democracy and also specific values and also the advancement of technology.
"It used to be their (mobility) is limited only in religious institutions only, such as Islamic education, the Ministry of Religious Affairs or Islamic court, but by giving them a more broader knowledge, then they can be part of the economic development, part of the high-tech development or political development also."
Indonesia's push for Islamic education reform comes amid apparent growing support from militant factions of Indonesia's jihadi community for the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS) in Iraq.
Sidney Jones, the director of the Jakarta-based Institute for Policy Analysis of Conflict (IPAC), says that some Indonesian jihadists, as seen on many extremist websites, are raising money and pledging allegiance to the ISIS.
Dr Makruf acknowledges there are a "small number of Islamic institutions that are teaching radical items".
He says Australia has a role to play in Indonesia's education reform agenda, which encourages more moderate Islamic teachings.
" Australia) should be part of that because we are good neighbours actually, we are neighbouring and what happens in Australia and what happens in Indonesia will influence each other, that's the basic premise.
"Islamic education actually caters more for girls rather than boys. So I think if Australia's concerned, to alleviate poverty and also to help girls to improve their quality of life, I think Islamic education is the best to invest in that.
"Part of the cause of radicalism in Islamist schools is because they've been neglected by many in the development. If you look at the budget for allocations for Islamist schools before 2003, it's very small."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/an-indonesia-govt-reforming-islamic-education/5529344
randome
(34,845 posts)Just as Capitalism (for all its flaws) 'won out' over Communism.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesnt always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one youre already in.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)which would make Marx cry) are not mutually exclusive. China, who professes to be communist, are the biggest capitalist state in the world. Capitalism winning out over communism sounds good for the movies, but in reality it's more like oligarchical capitalism wins out over oligarchical communism. The key word is "oligarchy". And another thing, capitalism does not equate with democracy. Capitalism is in fact not compatible with democracy.
And another thing, there will never be a "death-knell" for fundamentalism. You can't simply kill them all and be done with it. In fact capitalism promotes fundamentalism. Capitalism thrives on inequality and that promotes fundamentalism.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)People mix up terms so much it is hard to important to at least see, if not totally understand, to discuss anything. And I am still learning.
randome
(34,845 posts)You can say we didn't 'win' but that's a minor point, IMO. And Reagan didn't do shit about it, he was just 'lucky' to be on duty when it occurred.
Yeah, 'death knell' is too strong. But capitalism, despite all its flaws, is still preferred by the vast majority of countries. And equality for women and other minorities is still preferred by that majority, despite many, many setbacks and intransigence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
justabob
(3,069 posts)Rather than simply promoting inequalities, etc that you mention, and the religious kind of fundy-ism, capitalism itself could be considered fundamentalist. It is a religion of sorts for too many people.
get the red out
(13,456 posts)To take issue with human rights issues in many Islamic countries, especially toward women? If that's the case, my feminism negates my proper liberalism. Actually, this os one reason I sm not a good liberal.
Turborama
(22,109 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)for example.
EX500rider
(10,448 posts)Islamic states (dark green), states where Islam is the official religion (light green), secular states (blue) and other (orange), among countries with Muslim majority.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I think that most people use "Islamic states" to mean either "all states with a Muslim majority" - i.e. all the colours on your map - or "states where Islam is the official religion" - i.e. both shades of green, and arguably some of the orange as well.
Turborama
(22,109 posts)For example, Indonesia is the largest Muslim majority country and is neither an "Islamic state" or a state where Islam is the "official" religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia
get the red out
(13,456 posts)One of the countries where there is no religious freedom, where going from being a Muslim to identifying as a non-muslim is illegal. The United States isn't a technical democracy either. And do you know what the meaning of is, "is"? All those kinds of comments meant to render someone's opinion meaningless by verbiage.
Turborama
(22,109 posts)Additionally, I genuinely don't know of a country where it's illegal to stop being a Muslim and am interested to find out which ones have that law.
get the red out
(13,456 posts)orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)' The Good German ' .
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)"Feminist" and "liberal" (and antifeminist and illiberal) are both properties a political position can have.
Most feminist political positions are liberal, but some are not.
It probably *is* true that all antifeminist positions are automatically also illiberal, though.
So feminism is almost, but not quite, a subset of liberalism, but not even close to being a synonym. There are plenty of liberal issues which are nothing to do with gender politics.
Feminist Nothing to do with feminism antifeminist
Liberal Lots Lots None
Neither A few Lots None
Illiberal A very few Lots Lots
Edit: my diagram has failed. Anyone know how to make this into a nice neat table, please?
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)I was side tracked by an authoritarian or two, and did not address the post itself, I thought it was excellent .
get the red out
(13,456 posts)Absolutely true.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)get the red out
(13,456 posts)Does that mean that they don't have to fight to get the least right in those majority Muslim countries? Does that mean a lot of their lives aren't in danger in those majority Muslim countries? Will that keep the religious police from beating them if they aren't dressed to suit them in Saudi Arabia? Will being Muslim keep them from being murdered by their family, in many instances, if they are raped and therefor impure?
Her religion doesn't matter, what matters is that she has so few rights as a human being. I don't care what a woman's religion is, I care if she has rights or not.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)ship millions of jobs to India with no stings attached. Without those jobs, the US continues to suppress wages and opportunities, hurting millions of citizens.
There is not a single voice from the Democratic Party elite about this exploitative practice of sending jobs to human rights abusers in Asia. That's because many of the Democratic Party elite profit from it.
If ISIS really wanted to hurt the US they would agree to take US jobs for $2/day with no benefits. They would be damaging millions of US workers without the hassle that comes with cruise missile attacks.
That's how China and India do it.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Life expectancy for womenis ranked about 150 out of 193 countries at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
(For men it's 143rd)
So it's not good, but it's not one of the most dangerous places on earth for women, unless you're putting nearly a quarter of the world's nations in that category.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)and the arrogance which places profit and political convenience over quality of life.
Dangers: female feoticide, infanticide, human trafficking.
Indias Central Bureau of Investigation estimated that in 2009 about 90% of trafficking took place within the country and that there were some 3 million prostitutes, of which about 40 percent were children.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghancasserly/2011/06/15/most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman/
Despite having the worlds largest democracy, famous examples of gang rape and hangings demonstrate what a perilous place India can be for women. Researchers estimate that there have been 50 million cases of female infanticide or foeticide over the last three decades. And even if you get to live, child marriage and high levels of trafficking still cast a shadow over the safety of females.
http://www.theneweconomy.com/insight/10-of-the-most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman
Oh, and let's not forget NAFTA and Mexico. When do we start bombing?
With 4,000 cases of women disappearing in 2011-2012, and 22.7 murders for every 100,000 in Chihuahua state in 2012, youd think the Mexican government and police would do everything possible to protect their inhabitants. Sadly women are massively let down by Mexicos legal system, which does not protect against domestic and sexual violence. There are certain punishments set out for perpetrators of sexual violence against women, however judiciary officials often weight up the latters chastity when it comes to deciding a sentence contradicting international standards. The unfortunate outcome of all of this is that few women come forward to report sexual offences. And when they do, they are frequently met with suspicion, apathy and disregard.
http://www.theneweconomy.com/insight/10-of-the-most-dangerous-countries-to-be-a-woman
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)is not intended to protect the US but to keep the mideast in turmoil and keep the profits up for the MIC.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)build the weapons that bomb the slums of Iraq and Syria. It's win-win!
get the red out
(13,456 posts)But it doesn't diminish other systematic abuses of women, or mean they shouldn't be spoken of.
Though your point DEFINITELY needs to be on the front burner of politics in this country.
TlalocW
(15,342 posts)Mathphobes with that Venn Diagram, who are probably breaking out in a sweat just looking at it right now.
TlalocW
eggplant
(3,884 posts)Venn diagrams don't show relative sizes -- they only show logical relations between finite sets. Sticking numbers in them is just silly.
unblock
(51,920 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)which kind of screws up your Venn diagram.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I doubt you'd get a whole pixel of intersection.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is the guy who spilled his guts to the New York Daily News, then yes.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)So I guess each pixel represents on the order of 1000 people.
How many Americans do you think support ISIS? I would be unsurprised if it were less than 1000, and surprised if it were multiple thousands.