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kpete

(71,981 posts)
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:42 AM Oct 2014

We got it wrong in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Egypt, in Libya, & since the outset in Syria

ROBERT R. FOWLER
Half measures in fight against Islamic State will only make matters worse

Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Oct. 03 2014, 6:34 PM EDT
Last updated Saturday, Oct. 04 2014, 10:51 AM EDT



.........

We got it wrong in Iraq, then again in Afghanistan, then in Egypt, then in Libya, and since the outset in Syria. Our values are not their values, nor are they universal (which is why Stephen Harper’s and John Baird’s trumpeting of a “values-based foreign policy” is ignorant and pretentious). However much we might wish it were so, there are effectively no universally agreed essential values, and we have had little success, anywhere in the world, forcing people to trade their values for ours. Despite our collective spending of trillions of dollars fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan to win over hearts and minds, many – perhaps most – Afghans do not want to see girls in school; have little interest in what we call democracy; believe our harping about corruption is extravagantly hypocritical; and would rather grow poppies than carrots.

Even the Canadian-authored Universal Declaration of Human Rights – of which we are so justifiably proud – is, in fact, not universally accepted. It was written in the late 1940s, when the infant United Nations was composed of a quarter of today’s membership.

The bulk of humanity was underrepresented. Present at the creation of the UN in 1945 and, three years later, when the Declaration was adopted, were few countries from what today we know as the Third World. China was but Taiwan, and the only African countries were Ethiopia, Egypt, Liberia and a very different South Africa. The colonial powers (Christian white guys all) believed they were the world. To an extent, we still do, tenaciously oblivious to the pervasive impact of our arrogance.

The IS, however, is well aware that we are perceived in such a light. They know the propaganda value of poking sticks into American eyes, or knives into Western throats. They understand the extent to which we in the West are casualty-shy, and that the effectiveness of our actions is crippled by collective attention deficit disorder. They know full well that ill-informed and poorly executed Western forays into “Muslim lands” have been disastrous for us – and they are anxious to lure us into further folly. They are confident that by so doing they will dramatically increase their recruiting base, their authority, and the scope and impact of their movement; and they simply do not give a damn about the numbers they will lose in the process. Truly, in their eyes, such losses are a blessing.






Xlnt Read:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/half-measures-in-fight-against-islamic-state-will-only-make-matters-worse/article20926294/?page=all

8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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We got it wrong in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Egypt, in Libya, & since the outset in Syria (Original Post) kpete Oct 2014 OP
Jeremy Scahill seems to support this argument... adirondacker Oct 2014 #1
That's a good read.. KoKo Oct 2014 #3
In a just world, this would seem to be true. Cleita Oct 2014 #2
"We" got it wrong in Ukraine, too. Igel Oct 2014 #4
I think we got it about right in Libya Schema Thing Oct 2014 #5
we can't know that Libya would be more of a mess without the intervention cali Oct 2014 #6
absolutely not true Schema Thing Oct 2014 #7
This is a powerful article. "Our values are not their values, nor are they universal (which is why rhett o rick Oct 2014 #8

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
1. Jeremy Scahill seems to support this argument...
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:49 AM
Oct 2014

Obama's War on ISIS an 'Epic Formula for Blowback': Jeremy Scahill
Through a deadly mix of incompetence, ignorance, and misinformation, "we’ve created the very threats we claim to be fighting," reporter claims
The Obama administration employed "flimsy justification" to enter a war that will only exacerbate the crisis in the Middle East, investigative reporter Jeremy Scahill, co-founding editor of the The Intercept and author of the book Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield, said on Democracy Now! Friday.

"What I’m saying is that the United States, through its policies, created the very threat that it claims to be fighting now, and in continuing this policy, what President Obama is doing is embracing the very lies that made the Cheney-Bush Iraq War possible," Scahill argued. "And in the process, he’s creating yet another generation of people in the Islamic world who are going to grow up in a society where they believe that their religion is being targeted, where they believe that the United States is a gratuitous enemy. And so, this is sort of an epic formula for blowback."

The issue is not whether the latest U.S.-led war against ISIS in Iraq and Syria will make things worse in those countries, but to what extent, Scahill told interviewer Amy Goodman.

After describing the U.S. military's drone program as "kabuki theater," Scahill encouraged viewers to consider who benefits most from war."

<Snip>

www.commondreams.org/news/2014/10/03/obamas-war-isis-epic-formula-blowback-jeremy-scahill

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
2. In a just world, this would seem to be true.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 09:58 AM
Oct 2014

However, it's working fine for the oligarchies who are reaping the profits. This is why the policy of war never changes.

Igel

(35,296 posts)
4. "We" got it wrong in Ukraine, too.
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:52 AM
Oct 2014

For the same reasons.

Even though presumably all the leaders involved were either Xian or white or guys. (Obama--Xian non-white guy, Merkel is presumably Xian white non-guy, Hollande presumably non-Xian white guy).

That didn't seem to make much of a difference.

Then again, some won't want to think of Russia and the USSR as "colonial" in any sense of the word because they said they weren't colonialist. Some are easily confused by words. If people they want to believe switch the referent they don't know what to do.

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
5. I think we got it about right in Libya
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 10:58 AM
Oct 2014


This quick rewriting of history wrt Libya that is happening bothers me.


The Libyan people really DID, back in 2010/2011, rise up in a huge way against Gaddafi, and really DID fight the part of their war that they could, while NATO and coalition partners gave them an air force.


Yes, Libya is a mess that may become an even bigger mess. My point is that w/o intervention, it would be an even much bigger mess, with loss of life and displacement of horrific proportions.
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
6. we can't know that Libya would be more of a mess without the intervention
Sun Oct 5, 2014, 11:01 AM
Oct 2014

We do know that it's worse now than before the military intervention.

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
7. absolutely not true
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 03:20 AM
Oct 2014

the intervention came during an existing revolution.

It was certainly just as "bad" during that uprising, for the people of Libya, as it is now. And it was heading towards being much, much worse.


 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
8. This is a powerful article. "Our values are not their values, nor are they universal (which is why
Mon Oct 6, 2014, 11:55 AM
Oct 2014

Stephen Harper’s and John Baird’s trumpeting of a “values-based foreign policy” is ignorant and pretentious). However much we might wish it were so, there are effectively no universally agreed essential values, and we have had little success, anywhere in the world, forcing people to trade their values for ours."

And "“values-based foreign policy” is ignorant and pretentious" and in most cases, self-serving. We like to think our values are the most noble. But our values are changing fairly rapidly. It was fairly recently that our values included slavery. And even today we do not treat women equal to men nor Black Americans equal to White Americans. Are values need a lot of work yet we are using values to justify killing people.

Saying that there are no universally agreed essential values doesn't quite say it. IMO there are no sacred values. There is no where we can go to learn the universal sacred values that will live on forever.

Why are we bombing ISIS instead of Saudi Arabia? Hint: It has nothing to do with values.

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