Yeah, another scary doggy thread

[MannyGoldstein]

I'm still trying to make sense of this dog stuff. For the record, I've owned a number of dogs, medium to large ones (the largest a Lab/Shepard mix was 80+ lbs of pure raccoon-dispatching muscle that wouldn't dream of biting, or even barking at, any sort of human).

So here's the deal: last year I was in a rough-around-the edges part of a major city in the US, and I saw two enormous and scary-looking dogs chained in someone's front yard. They had to have been 100+ lbs each, and their dead eyes followed my every move. Dead eyes. Like the eyes of my friend's Malamute when I was in high school, who was always kept on a chain/lead because it really didn't like non-family members.

Huge scary dogs with dead eyes.

I described the scary doggies I saw on my trip to a veterinarian friend of ours who works with domestic and farm animals, and she told me that they were Presa Canarios, and that their only purpose in a populated area was to terrify and kill. These fellas:

And they do kill:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diane_Whipple
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-08-22/news/0608210508_1_pit-bull-shawna-willey-presa-canarios

In the rare instance when one of these doggies shows up in her practice, she won't go near it - fortunately her partner will deal with them. God bless him!

So here's my question: would you want one of these pooches living next to you?

If I had one living next to me, particularly if I had a young child, I'd do whatever I could to get the thing out of the neighborhood, and failing that I'd move. I think that there needs to be a limit on what's allowed to live in a populated area.

I believe in gun control because all people have bad days, and some have mental illness, and adding a gun makes things infinitely worse. Likewise I believe in banning any dog that has a reasonable potential of inflicting lethal mayhem if it's having a bad day, if a three-year-old wanders into its yard, or if the silicon chip inside its head gets switched to overload.

Am I nuts here?

[Marrah_G]

1. Honestly it really depends on the owners

BUT- it also has somewhat to do with the breed and if the owner knows enough about the breed. Breeds are different, bred for different things. You have to know the breed to be able to understand your dogs behavior. Too often then not, they don't. And that Mal probably had dead eyes because they are way too damn smart to be left on a chain and ignored.

My dog has predator eyes.... always watching, you know he is thinking, but you can be never quite sure what he is thinking about

[napi21]

7. You are 100% correct! Some owners just don't know how to train a dog,

some deliberately train them to be aggressive, and some train them to be nice, loyal friendly dogs and their best friend.

My son and his wife raised a cane corso which is an Italian Mastiff. He was 140pounds, 38" at the shoulder, and a BIG PUSSY! They bought his as an 8 week old puppy, and socialized him, and taught him well to never take food from strangers, never touch food if not told it's OK, walk obediently by the owner's side. Never leave the yard without his owner.

He IS BIG, and very intimidating because of his size, but he's nine years old now, and has welcomed little stray kittens into the home, welcomed strangers of all ages from toddlers to teens, and adults.

That breed was raised also as a herding dog in Sicily, but also to attack anything that might harm the sheep.

My son lives in Sicily and was intrigued by he breed when he first met one. I'm sure they can be very dangerous dogs, but it really does depend on how they are raised!

[LeftyMom]

2. I definitely don't want any dogs trained by AB meth dealers,

which is what the deal was in the Diane Whipple case.

Mastiff breeds (pressas are mastiffs, fyi) train well and are not generally excitable dogs. Unfortunately those dogs did exactly what the very broken humans who raised them trained them to do. Which really isn't something you can blame the breed for- but if you want to ban racist meth users from the planet I'm all for it.

[uppityperson]

4. Reading about the original and new owners, good lord. Ban and imprison all of them for

numerous things, including treating those poor dogs that badly that they turned out like that.

[Electric Monk]

3. Is it almost Monday again already?

BOB GELDOF reveals the TRUTH of "I Don't Like Mondays"!

http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=xSFIPcwqGvw

(remote video play disabled, you have to go to youtube to see it)

[NutmegYankee]

5. The problem is dogs, like most high order animals, are individuals.

They have unique personalities. All pet owners know this and have experienced this. Just like we don't accept that some breeds (race or ethnicity) of humans are more violent or prone to violence, we shouldn't think the same of dogs. Many on DU have complained that they have a so called "dangerous breed" and that are very playful and loyal and nothing like how people describe them. I frankly believe them. I personally have been attacked by a dog only twice, and they were small to medium breeds. One was a Chow Chow, the other an Australian Shepherd.

[Marrah_G]

8. Breed does matter though

And before you disagree just hear me out.

There are big differences in breed and their natural behaviors. If you take a high energy breed that needs to work and keep it in your apartment expecting a lap dog, then you are going to end up with a very screwed up animal. Some guard, some herd, some dig, some chase, etc. By knowing your breed and what your dog needs you end up with a happy dog. If you don't you end up with a destructive or depressed or aggressive dog.

Some breeds are easy and some take a lot of work. Much of the reason we end up with so many dogs in shelters is that the HUMANS do not take into account the breed of the dog when choosing a companion or family pet. The dog acts up and the humans drop it off.

I have a dangerous breed. I am not ignorant of that I am always mindful that his well being rests on me. If I do not give him attention, if I am not the one in charge, if I am not always cautious he could get into trouble and it would be my fault. He is loving and sweet, playful and funny and its my job as his human to make sure he is never in a position or desire to harm anyone.

There are dog breeds that can do more damage then others and when they do it is often because of an owners ignorance of the breed and failure to give it the attention and guidance it needs. Also, often with attacks that are fatal you find multiple dogs (a pack) and unspayed or neutered dogs. The dogs get out, due to owner negligence and someone else pays the price.

[DrDan]

22. genetics certainly matter

[MannyGoldstein]

11. But a huge dog having a bad day is a much bigger problem

Than a little dog.

And many dogs have bad days.

[OnyxCollie]

6. I've been bitten by a pit-bulldog mix,

a Labrador mix, a German shepherd, a St. Bernard, a wolf, and a Dachshund.

If the Dachshund was 125 lbs. heavier, I might not be here right now.

[hedgehog]

18. Stop using bacon grease as cologne!

[TorchTheWitch]

9. yes, you're nuts

Well, you asked.

You're obsessing about a breed. It all depends on the owner and the individual dog. Always.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. So a shih-tzu having a bad day is as dangerous

as a Rottweiler having a bad day.

Yes?

[uppityperson]

12. So for you, size matters is what you are saying? Not breed but size?

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Mostly.

Size is very important (although my wife says that really it's not, I shouldn't worry), and possibly track record of the breed e.g. a 60 lb Golden Retriever probably deserves more slack tham a 60 lb Cow Chow.

[TorchTheWitch]

16. what's this "having a bad day"?

It's apparent that you have an unreasonable fear of large breed dogs and fixate on breed over anything else. Get yourself educated. Then you'd realize how completely ludicrous "having a bad day" is. I've long since gotten fed up trying to educate the totally clueless determined to cling to their own ridiculous fears and ignorant opinions, and I'm not wasting my time anymore.

You asked, I answered, and if you can't understand how thoroughly stupid your post is then you know what to do. I'm not going to sit here wasting yet more time trying to educate someone determined to think what they like anyway. Frankly, my sharing a lifetime's worth of knowledge and experience I should be charging a lot for... and triple for those that refuse to learn.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. E.g.,

http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/1462-sudden-aggression-in-dogs-may-by-be-a-symptom-of-a-medical-condition

[liberal_at_heart]

13. People should be held accountable when their pets harm someone, but I don't get the inclination to

try and get them out of the neighborhood. A three year old could wander into a neighbor's pool or into the street. That doesn't mean we ban pools and cars.

[hedgehog]

15. We do, however, require that pools be securely fenced and even in some areas,

that they have an alarm to indicate that something has fallen into the water.

We also require training and licensing before operating a car.

[liberal_at_heart]

17. And we require pets be properly restrained. When they are not people can be held

responsible. It wouldn't be a bad idea to require training and licensing to own a pet but just like owning a car that is no guarantee. There are plenty of people who own a car and end up hurting someone with it.

[Hari Seldon]

19. Dog owning is hard

It should require a license for the owner.

It shouldn't be easy to get a dog.
The dog's owner should pay a bond to own the dog.
Cruelty should be pursued relentlessly.
Giving up an animal should be treated as a serious matter, which should bear on the former owners right to own more animals.

Perhaps things will get better when Laws in this country are designed to discourage animal exploitation, and encourage Responsible pet ownership.

[RKP5637]

26. Exactly! I agree with this so much. Too many humans are too stupid, obtuse and/or vicious to have a

dog and for some any pets at all.

[3catwoman3]

34. During a 40 yr career in pediatrics...

...I have often felt the same way about some parents I've encountered.

[RKP5637]

37. Yes, definitely!!! n/t

[KurtNYC]

27. I agree. Some of my neighbors lose dogs the way some of us lose socks.

Drowned, hit by cars, choked on something, jumped out of moving car, pancreatic cancer (they fed it only dog "treats" like Puperoni) and one hit by a train (?). A fraternity I know of just got a purebred Dobie puppy and that dog will be lucky to live 2 months. Others can see the potential for problems and the risks for the dogs' lives but certain dog buyers just chalk it up to luck and go get another one.

Many have said "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners" -- so what can we do as a society to keep dogs away from bad owners? Or to help owners create a healthier environment for all dogs?

[snooper2]

33. I know, it is raining this morning, had to spend 10 minutes finding an umbrella..

Got up a little bit early, had to walk dog...wait for dog to take a shit, have towel ready in garage to dry doggie feet off....


Jeez, I was POOPED and hadn't even left for work yet

[tblue37]

20. The woman who was mauled to death in the hallway in front of her door some

years ago was killed by a pair of Presa Canarios owned by an imprisoned drug dealer. His lawyer and her husband were taking care of the dogs while he was in prison. The lawyer got several years in jail for the woman's death. There were actually letters or emails from her to the dogs' owner bragging and laughing about how the woman was constantly being terrorized by the dogs. The lawyer and her husband got quite a chuckle out of that. I think that maybe the husband was also sentenced, but not for as long.

Diane Whipple was the victim in that case. The lawyer's name was Knoller.

[TDale313]

36. I remember that case vividly.

When I saw the op, it was the first thing that came to mind.

[DrDan]

21. nope not nuts at all . . . responsible

[hlthe2b]

23. One comes to the local dog park. No more a problem than any other dog in the right hands.

If trained or encouraged to fight/guard then I would agree that these CAN be deadly. True of several breeds of dogs

[MannyGoldstein]

24. And if the hands aren't right? nt

[KurtNYC]

28. Nearly impossible to get home owners insurance with 5 of these 10 breeds:

Australia bans most of them.

3....It is perhaps the least tractable breed on this list, and is highly prized for its aggressiveness. This personality trait is called “ojeriza”, which translates from Portugese to ‘distrust’. The Fila despises strangers, to the point where Brazilian dog show judges are advised not to touch it, and the standard allows a certain ferocity in the show ring. It is illegal to own a Fila in the United Kingdom.

http://listverse.com/2011/08/23/top-10-banned-dog-breeds/

[LisaLynne]

29. I will say this, coming into this discussion as though it's totally honest and not ...

a continuation of some other discussion I missed:

Messing up the training/raising of a small dog does not have the potential consequences of messing of the training/raising of a big dog. If you talk to dog trainers, they will often tell you that the most actually aggressive dogs that they have come across are small dogs, because they can't really do that much damage and people tend to think their outbursts are "cute" or funny. So, in that respect, I can agree that if people are going to have a large dog of any breed, they need to know what they are doing AND want to have that dog be balanced and well-behaved.

Unfortunately, some people WANT their dogs to be aggressive and others just don't know what they are doing. You can make any dog of any breed aggressive, on purpose or accidentally. It's about the person and what they do or don't do to that dog.

[get the red out]

30. No, I love my little BC mix so much

that I wouldn't want her in danger from a dog bred to be so aggressive. I know this won't be a popular opinion here. But I don't want to risk her in order to be popular. She's a rescue btw, but I'm not on the bandwagon that believes that some kinds of rescue dogs matter more than others, which seams to be the push right now in this country.

[tblue37]

38. BC? nt

[get the red out]

39. Border Collie (mix)

[link:<a href=".html" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt=" photo Layla_zpsdfd6ddd3.jpg"/></a>|

[MineralMan]

31. Lots of dog owners are negligent in how they handle their dogs.

Lots of dog owners don't take proper care to keep their dogs under control. I have a next door neighbor like that. Her dog is some sort of something-poo. It weighs about 10 pounds, and is never leashed or fenced. It's annoying, noisy, and tends to enjoy harassing anyone and any other dog it encounters. It never bites, but isn't friendly and just dashes around yipping and yapping, to everyone's annoyance.

If it were a large breed dog, that undisciplined, untrained, and unrestrained behavior would put people and pets at risk of attack. If that were the case and she owned a large breed dog, I'd be on her case constantly and insist that the dog be under control at all time. My two dogs, a beagle and a beagle-basset mix are never off-leash or unrestrained by a fence or something. They're socialized, friendly to everyone, and a joy to be around.

But, I don't expect people to be in control of their dogs. I see too many dogs that have no limits. My wife and I walk our two dogs around the neighborhood. We've had to choose specific routes to avoid dogs that are owned by irresponsible people. That's the nature of people. You can't depend on other people to do the right thing.

That's why large, aggressive breeds pose such a risk. Properly-trained and socialized, they're just fine. But that's not always the situation. Untrained and unsocialized, or even trained to be aggressive, fighting dogs, they are a danger to society. Since I have no way of knowing who owns a random dog or how it has been trained, I simply don't trust any dog I don't know.

[snooper2]

32. Are we just supposed to answer the last question?

[YarnAddict]

35. ANY dog can maim or even kill

under the right circumstances. Even a fluffy little poodle.

In the video in your OP, it was obvious that the people were training the dog to attack. A dog can also be trained to sit, stay, down-stay, fetch your slippers, cuddle the baby, etc.

"Dead eyes" is actually a pretty subjective description. Who knows what someone else would see when they look into the same eyes? At 80 lbs, your sweet, gentle lab could have been seen as scary to some people, too, since "scary" is in the eye of the beholder.

[countryjake]

40. Manny, those dead eyes you describe could also be guard dog eyes...

and if I were you, I'd just be thankful that they were chained up in that front yard. To answer your question, no, I wouldn't want any dog chained-up living next to me, not any breed, but especially not the sort that you saw cause I think that tying up a big dog like that makes them more apt to want to kill any human they see...when they get loose.

I gather that you also think Chows are born with those "dead eyes"? My recently departed grandbaby was a
15+ years old Chow Chow, trained to be a protector, and if you didn't know her and happened to catch her gaze, the intimidation her eyes produced could give you goosebumps, but such was her reason for living and for most of my daughter's adult life I never had to worry that some creepy perv or sex-crazed predator would ever harm her again. That dear woofie was never any danger to other people or animals, was socialized as a pup to learn the difference between friend or foe and taught to watch out for any bodily harm that might threaten her owner. She was a master guard dog and naturally suspicious (those eyes) of anyone until she was properly introduced (just one signal from her mama was all that was needed to get her tail awaggin') but even then, she'd remain aloof and wary until she got to know a person.

As a single woman living in the middle of a large city, my girl couldn't have found a better friend to watch over her safety. I mourn that wonderful creature's passing and only now have I begun to actually worry about my daughter.