What can replace police?

[DonCoquixote]

What I am trying to do is start a discussion on what alternatives there are to Police. On the one hand, from Gerguson to Waldo Florida, it is apparent many cops are abusing authority. The situation is not accetpable, period. On the other hand, it is not like there are still not people that would gladly steal your stuff or beat you up if they can get away with it. How do we decrase the police state, while still keeping people safe from thieves and violent types?

[Warren DeMontague]

1. I dont think youre going to get rid of police. What we need is oversight and good department culture

I think a big part of the problem is that in some departments it is too easy for it to become a club where they cover each others' asses.

[merrily]

2. A rose by any other name? Replacing the police is not the answer. Better police is the answer.

Training, discipline, dismissals, lawsuits.

[Feral Child]

4. Good suggestions,

I'd add hiring practices to the list.

Many police officers get the job through political connections, ie, "The Rabbi". They, in turn, feel "untouchable" because of their connections. Nepotism is also a problem with some departments. NYPD is notorious for legacy appointments.


Pay, of course, is another issue. Cops should be held to a higher standard, but we need to attract a better class of candidate with higher pay. 'Baggers will squeal about paying taxes for better cops, especially since they are fine with the racism of the status quo.

[merrily]

6. RWers are usually okay with police brutality, too.

[Feral Child]

7. Abso

lutely, merrily!

[Jamastiene]

3. A nice potted plant?

with a camera and an Uzi rigged up to it. If anyone tries to steal it, splat!

All kidding aside, how about we just find a way to get the cops some therapy to walk them back a step or two from their hyped up state of mind and reintroduce some sensitivity into the uber militarized types that seem to like to harass the hell out of black people for some fucked up reason. And take away their fucking tanks and military equipment. They don't need that shit. September 11th has created this nonsense. It's time to roll back the paranoia and retrain them with a requirement that they see a therapist until they realize they aren't at war with the American people....mainly black people, for some fucked up reason. They seem to think they are at war with black people and I still don't get it. September 11th gave them militarized equipment to fight terrorists and instead they want to go around harassing black men. Last I checked, African American males did not perpetrate 9/11, so the cops obviously got the wrong training to handle terrorism with their new toys.

[Feral Child]

5. You mean "okra", of course.

[Jamastiene]

39. Lol!

[brush]

8. Better screening to weed out the bullies and the shoot-first cowards, also . . .

Last edited Tue Oct 7, 2014, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)

better training in de-escalating field situations.

Many of the recent incidents involving cops using force/deadly force, especially the ones recorded on videos, have shown cops doing just the opposite of de-escalation — either there is escalation with lethal force because the cop seems to be just scared of his shadow (the incident in Florida at the gas station), or the one in Ferguson where the cop seemed to be just a bully who wanted to shoot someone.

This is where better training would help officers to understand that defusing incidents can eliminate the need to use force while also fostering better community relations with the force.

One other thing needed is a new type of non-lethal control device that can be deployed instead of a firearm.

Many departments have tasers but too often we've seen cops in the field fall back on the use of firearms because they themselves don't have a taser — and tasers themselves sometimes result in serious injury or death when a tasered victim is struck in the heart or falls and hits their head on concrete.

Maybe cops should be outfitted with rubber or plastic bullet guns or beanbag guns for use before resorting to live rounds. if the cop in Ferguson had had rubber bullets, and the proper training, Michael Brown would still be alive.

Even some type of netting system deployable by a single officer could be effective in control.

[NightWatcher]

22. Screening and psych testing is the answer

There is a hierarchy for law enforcement jobs that bullies and macho types tend to follow.

First, they want to be a Fed. After they fail the standards to go to work with the FBI, Marshals, or other, they apply for big police departments. As they fail those they trickle down further. Some who cannot even land a job at the lowliest police department end up as jailers or, further still, security guards. George Zimmerman is the perfect example of this. He just kept getting denied jobs until he took it on himself to bully those he could.

[brush]

27. Good analysis

You nailed zimmerman perfectly.

[NightWatcher]

28. I used to work in background investigations for federal law enforcement

and I could look at an application and tell how far down the hierarchy the applicant would end up. I once even did an astronaut's background. You want to talk about squeaky clean over achiever, woof. Most would try to get in with Justice or something higher up and end up with Border Patrol or Bureau of Prisons.

[MohRokTah]

9. How about we just hold police accountable for their actions?

The current system puts cops above the law.

[KG]

10. aside from the lack of accountability and training, too many stupid laws to enforce.

[MindPilot]

11. Good question. Start by putting most of the current cops in prison for the rest of thier lives.

They are by nature violent psychopathic thugs and would always be a threat to the civilian population, therefore they must be kept away from civilized people.

Then replace them with a citizen police force of draftees. Similar to jury duty, citizens would be randomly selected, screened, trained and serve on the force for perhaps two years.

Anyone who wants to be a cop, probably shouldn't be.

[Calista241]

19. Oh please.

Even if there are 1000 incidents that we've heard of in the past 5 years, there are over 800,000 law enforcement personnel in the US at any given time.

The vast majority of them are good people that perform in a shitty jobs. And the same thing about politicians, if you actually want that job, you wouldn't be good at it.

And while you may be able to find someone to be President of they don't want that job, try finding a million cops that don't want to be cops.

[MohRokTah]

32. None of those 800,000 are to be trusted.

They form the blue wall that stops all accountability for the so-called "bad apples"

Those "bad apples" have spoiled all 800,000.

[Calista241]

36. I met a dude once from California, and he was an asshole.

Ergo, all people from California are assholes.

Guilt by association does not exist for a good reason in this country. I am sure that there's been a poster on this board that has committed a pretty serious crime. That doesn't mean Skinner should lose his job, and we aren't going to jail for it.

Good cops are just that, good cops. I, for one, like to know they're out there should I ever need their services.

[MohRokTah]

38. Nope, not buying your argument.

There's a difference between a guy and somebody given governmental authority over others.

Your argument does not hold water. Guilt by association is 100% correct in this instance because those you claim are good stand by and allow those who are bad to be unaccountable for their murderous actions when they are charged with enforcing the very laws those bad cops broke.

The bad apples spoiled the entire lot.

[FSogol]

12. The police aren't some invading army that showed up at the city gates one day,

they are employed by and answer to the jurisdictions they serve.

In the case of Waldo, Florida, the city ignored an out of control police department since they were earning millions. For them to act shocked now is pretty hypocritical.

In other areas, like Ferguson, the police run amok since citizens aren't holding them and the people who put them in power accountable. If you live in a jurisdiction like that, you need to get more people registered to vote and change the politicians. You need to press for civilian review boards and hold the police department and the politician responsible for the actions of the police. Policing should be a major campaign issue in these areas.

In some jurisdictions police and sheriffs are elected. Hold them accountable on election day. Insist on a professional police department.

Some cities/towns have great police departments that are professional and do a good job. Model your local departments after them.

[woo me with science]

13. End their militarization. Which means taking on corporate politicians.

Militarization of our police departments is a *bipartisan* effort of corporatists in both parties, right along with mass surveillance, the assaults on journalism, and the persecution of whistleblowers. The programs and legislation that are turning our police departments into paramilitary forces come through Homeland Security and the Pentagon, and are being used to suppress and intimidate dissent, exploit communities, and fill lucrative private prisons with slave labor as the nation is corporatized and Americans are made into a nation of low-paid wage slaves.

Both parties are complicit in this outrage. See the links below. Real change requires pushback against corporate politicians who are enabling this militarization, and that includes both corporate Democrats and Republicans.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

The entire Democratic leadership opposed Grayson amendment to stop arming cops with DOD weapons
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025390424

WOW... Went Looking For Connections Between Ferguson And ALEC... Found This Piece Of The Puzzle...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025413841

The exploitation of Ferguson I: In 2013 the town issued over 24,000 arrest warrants..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025404667

The exploitation of Ferguson II: The Seamy Underbelly Of Ferguson Starts To Appear
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025416747

The exploitation of Ferguson III: Ferguson Feeds Off the Poor: Three Warrants a Year Per Household
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025428157

Police Militarization (including the Obama administration's role)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/06/aclu-police-militarization-swat_n_2813334.html

It's almost certain that if the police agencies cooperate, the ACLU will find that the militarization trend has accelerated since Kraska's studies more than a decade ago. All of the policies, incentives and funding mechanisms that were driving the trend then are still in effect now. And most of them have grown in size and scope.

The George W. Bush administration actually began scaling down the Byrne and COPS programs in the early 2000s, part of a general strategy of leaving law enforcement to states and localities. But the Obama administration has since resurrected both programs. The Byrne program got a $2 billion surge in funding as part of the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, by far the largest budget in the program's 25-year history. Obama also gave the COPS program $1.55 billion that same year, a 250 percent increase over its 2008 budget, and again the largest budget in the program's history. Vice President Joe Biden had championed both programs during his time in the Senate.

The Pentagon's 1033 program has also exploded under Obama. In the program's monthly newsletter (Motto: "From Warfighter to Crimefighter&quot , its director announced in October 2011 that his office had given away a record $500 million in military gear in fiscal year 2011, which he noted, "passes the previous mark by several hundred million dollars." He added, "I believe we can exceed that in FY 12.”

Then there are the Department of Homeland Security's anti-terrorism grants. The Center for Investigative Reporting found in a 2011 investigation that since 2001, DHS has given out more than $34 billion in grants to police departments across the country, many of which have been used to purchase military-grade guns, tanks, armor, and armored personnel carriers. The grants have gone to such unlikely terrorism targets as Fargo, N.D.; Canyon County, Idaho; and Tuscaloosa, Ala.

The final ACLU report on militarization of police in America
https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/war-comes-home-excessive-militarization-american-police-report

"Operation Urban Shield"...Training our Police, Fire, First Responders..in Military Tactics
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025412909

[MineralMan]

14. Voting. That can do it.

People often don't bother to vote in elections where city and other local officials are elected. So, they get no say, whatever, in who is running their local jurisdictions. If everyone turned out to vote, the local governments would become more accountable.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

[MohRokTah]

33. Municipal elections have the biggest impact on the daily lives of people...

and have the smallest overall turnout.

And moving from the sublime to the ridiculous, presidential elections have the least impact on the daily lives of people while driving the most debate and the biggest turnout.

Americans have it all ass backwards.

[MineralMan]

34. Yes, they do, followed by county and state legislative districts.

I don't know why we don't get that. Personally, I have never missed an election, even special elections or elections with just one thing to vote on.

[madville]

15. Make it mandatory that the demographics of the police force

Make it mandatory that the demographics of the police force mirror the demographics of the community. Like every police force has to be 50% female and match the racial make up of the area they are policing.

[yesiwasacop]

30. I agree and most agencies attempt to do this

but I would challenge you to get the number of Black males/females you would want on your police force. Other races and females we dont even have to try and recruit, they apply in good numbers, especially hispanics.

Criminal records, financial issues and whatever aside, our biggest challenge in hiring blacks is that they (as a collective) dont want to be cops. For the ones who do, their families / friends shame them into not applying or even quitting in many instances.

My former dept has blacks over-represented (not by much) in terms of matching the make-up of the community, but we had to recruit from all over the nation to get them to even apply. Many are ex-military who served in the area or who have friends they served with who live here.

Not as easy as it looks. As for psych evals- I dont know any agencies who dont use them. Problem is that people change due to the environment they are in- sometimes it doesnt work out too well.


This report highlights some interesting police recruiting / retention facts

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/guard/ch2.htm

[logosoco]

16. End the drug war.

Cops harassing people because they "think" they "might" have drugs. Take that power away from them.

[Lee-Lee]

18. Progressive society needs strong police to exist

It is simple.

Progressive policies depend upon strong government that is big enough and strong enough to implement the desired policies.

Such a government requires the authority and power to tax and to enforce the laws and regulations it puts into place to serve the people.

You can't have any of that without police power and authority. Government without power and authority is nothing more than an ineffective wish list. You must collect taxes. People pay taxes not out of a sense of civic responsibility (most don't anyway), but because if they don't eventually a person from the government with the authority and ability to use force will show up and take away their property to sell and fund their debt and/or put them in jail.

You must enforce the laws. Laws against discrimination are useless unless there is penalty for breaking them, penalties will be ignored unless once again someone with the authority and ability to use force is the eventual outcome of ignoring them.

Laws protecting abortion are once again useless unless those against abortion know that eventually someone with a gun will show up to stop them from violating them.

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. If you desire a policy that will be a part of or enforced by government, you have to have strong police backing it up. The citizenry has to respect the institution of government enough to comply or else be in fear enough to comply, or a mix of both. With all the rethugs out there they never will respect it, that leaves just one alternative.

I know this will make all the cop-hating progressive on here both mad an uncomfortable that I point it out. Ohh well. It is the truth- if you desire progressive reform and government policies you must have strong enough police powers to make them work.

Weak police= people ignore laws= weak ineffective government. That is why libertarians also jump on the cop bashing/get rid of the police bandwagon, they understand the end game they seek will be aided by weakening the police.

[Calista241]

20. Amen.

The law of unintended consequences. The solution you want may be 10x worse than the problem you were trying to solve.

[HoustonDave]

24. So the logical extension...

of your piece describes the country perfectly - as people try to make social progressivism the law of the land, they require a police state to implement it fully, which yields the opposite of a progressive state. Essentially you are showing the essential paradox of progressivism enforced by laws.
"Capitalism is the exploitation of men by other men. Communism is, of course, the opposite."

[brush]

31. No one is saying we don't need police

We do however need better psych training to weed out the bullies and shoot-first cowards from ever making it to the force, then better de-escalation training to handle field incidents without having to resort to force and/or lethal force.

[damnedifIknow]

21. Mandatory shock collars

All interactions with the public watched in real time by a citizen board and if they begin to show signs of brutality....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[One_Life_To_Give]

23. Militia or 50,000Volt Concertina Wire

The original Police force in the colonies was the Militia composed of everyday citizens. So perhaps we have every adult from 18-64 serve 40hrs a year in the Militia, policing their own neighborhoods/cities?

[HoustonDave]

25. Militia

So in essence you are agreeing that the militia is every male between the age of 18 and 64? Kinda makes the 2nd Amendment problematic for posters here, doesn't it?

[One_Life_To_Give]

29. While off topic, check out the Literature leading up to the Revoultion

From

The Report of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting.
November 20, 1772
Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature.

Self defense by the best means, was viewed as a Fundamental Right, the First Law of Nature!

[dilby]

26. How about we keep the police we just no longer militarize them.

We end doing no knock raids at 1 AM, we end the scenes where neighborhood raids look like troops entering Fallujah. Maybe we should lower their work week to 20 hours while providing the same pay and benefits to reduce their stress so they are not ready to shoot every person they come across.

[longship]

35. These?

[KittyWampus]

37. More accurate question- what can replace police personnel taking steroids?

Police personnel that are randomly tested for steroids and removed from field if tested positive.

[etherealtruth]

40. Training and accountability

civilian oversight .... not panels acting as rubber stampers for the police, but interested community members representing the good of the community.


If we could establish police departments that truly protected and served the good of all of the people in the community, I would not be opposed to more vacation (in high crime areas if the work is done correctly it has to be emotionally draining) and other "perks" that could help maintain good mental health .... but, at this point these rewards would only serve to promote the "us against them" attitude.