I lived and worked openly gay in Saudi Arabia and the UAE for 25 years.

[Douglas Carpenter]

And I was hardly the only one. I just want to say that because a lot of people seem to accept a cartoon caricature view of the Islamic world. But, yes all my coworkers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike were well aware that I was gay and nobody seemed to care very much. In fact the only nasty comments I ever got about it came from westerners. I am not saying the Middle East is Scandinavia like enlightened. Of course it's not. But bit by bit progress in a lot of areas is being made - albeit a bit too slowly.

[Violet_Crumble]

1. K&R n/t

[WinkyDink]

2. Weren't YOU the lucky one, then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia are unrecognized. Homosexuality is frequently a taboo subject in Saudi Arabian society and is punished with imprisonment, fines, corporal punishment, capital punishment, whipping/flogging, and chemical castrations. Transgenderism is generally associated with homosexuality.

Despite the virtual total lack of rights, some gays say that it is "easier to be gay than straight"[4] in Saudi because of the strict gender separation, and toleration of sex between men, or between women, unless it is "defined and made an issue of," [5] or "a public front of obeisance to Wahhabist norms" is not maintained.[4]

[Douglas Carpenter]

3. actually most gay western people and Asian people for that matter felt little or no oppression

However there are occasional scandals which usually result in them being sent home. But I only saw that a few times and that was when I was working in the remote tribal region in the Asir mountains. Homosexuality is widely benignly accepted throughout most of the Islamic world - in spite of the official religious line. It is hard to explain how a culture can be of two minds - but that is how it is. To be honest a local person who is young and planning to get married and have children or someone who is married with children - homosexual activity will be overlooked 99.99% of the time. They probably would not accept a local person openly calling themselves gay - but for foreigner - they don't seem to care. I was and am a very quiet and reserved person. But I know loads of "screaming queens" - both western and Filipino who worked there for years.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Your notion of no oppression is not like mine....

"little or no oppression...However there are occasional scandals which usually result in them being sent home."
That means they deport people for being gay.
Your idea of 'open' is also unlike mine:
" someone who is married with children - homosexual activity will be overlooked 99.99% of the time."

see to me that's saying that closeted people get by with a life of lies. That's not acceptance. That is intensely controlling oppression.

"They probably would not accept a local person openly calling themselves gay -"

That sort of means they don't accept gay people. If they do not accept their own children and neighbors who are gay, they seem to care very much about who is gay and who is not. Your attitude 'it's great there because they only oppress the locals is pretty calloused.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. I'm not claiming it is an enlightened liberal society

I'm claiming it is not what people think it is like. Actually as in many non-western cultures most males have had lots of homosexual experiences - everyone knows it and only rarely does anyone care about it. The strict delineation between gay, bisexual, and straight is a western construct that most of the rest of the world does not understand. I am not suggestion Saudi Arabia is a model society for gay people anyone else. I'm glad I am no longer there. I am trying to educate people about reality versus perception.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. All that denied but very real sexual activity is part of the problem, Doug.

My first visit to the ME, I was 14, blond and cute as can be. You don't have to tell me what they want. . Living in a closet, fearing stronger men, these things are not features of freedom or acceptance.

I am, I will admit, surprised to learn that you lived openly and freely among the Saudis, in their neighborhoods, as a gay man that everyone knew was gay. Did you date Saudi men? Did you do much advocacy on behalf of the local LGBT population? If not, why not.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. I was not involved with any Saudi men

I didn't know any local men who openly called themselves gay. Although, I knew many westerners who did have both short and longterm relationships with Saudi men.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. And you lived as an out gay man in regular Saudi neighborhoods?

I assume not. 25 years and you never met a local who was living the open life you claim is very common there. 25 years is a long time.
Would you have applied this same reasoning to South Africa? 'Good for me, not as good for the locals, but people don't understand the mindset here.'

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. I lived in a normal neighborhood in the UAE - but in Saudi I lived on compounds

I agree that Saudi Arabia is an oppressive society.

[valerief]

103. What was it like for lesbians? nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

105. as far as foreign Lesbians - I would say they could live their own lives fairly freely

I don't really know anything about local Lesbian sexuality

[MADem]

68. So, you're averring, then, that it was just like USA back in the old days?

In Muslim society, a good marriage is a goal. In USA and western Europe, there used to be pressure to marry, but it was less insistent.

So long as a fellow advertised himself as a "confirmed bachelor" or a woman herself as a "spinster," well, no one was going to say a thing...?

Keep your head down, don't make waves, and for heaven's sake, don't talk about those feelings and viewpoints, and you'll be fine!

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. from what I have been told by those who are far more experienced in personal relationships

with locals - the men do talk among themselves about such things- and will comment about who they think is really good looking among other men - now these by all means would be men who would certainly consider themselves completely straight

[MADem]

83. Well, yes, but that's more of a cultural thing--it doesn't always mean what you're saying it means.

It might--but it might not, either. Beauty is prized, and gender be damned. A handsome son, a beautiful daughter, those are elements of real pride to parents. Good looking people do better over there, same as they do here. There is a prejudice towards nice looking people in most places in this world.

Surely you noticed men holding hands in the street when you were there as well?

Women do the same. It is the consequence of sexual segregation more than anything else. It doesn't mean that they're gay or have any kind of sexual relationship.

They hang gay people in Iran when they catch them. It's not a good situation for gay folks in any country that operates under sharia. It just isn't. I wouldn't even try to suggest otherwise.

Certainly, gay people ARE going to find each other, but it is an environment fraught with tension.

Also, there is a rather perverse denial of "gay-ness" by most men in that society. Some don't see themselves as gay at all. You aren't gay so long as you're in charge, as it were, is how most of them view it. It's simply an accommodation of sexual urge, a power play, not a "lifestyle." (The quotes are deliberate.) These same guys can engage in sex on the one hand, and sit on a tribunal that puts a gay guy to death on the other hand. It's a schizophrenic POV. The reason westerners nowadays don't 'understand' it is because it is a discriminatory attitude that destroys lives, and the gay people in western society aren't going to put up with that kind of crap, either.

[nomorenomore08]

140. "and sit on a tribunal that puts a gay guy to death on the other hand." So true, and so sad.

"The reason [most] westerners nowadays don't 'understand' it is because it is a discriminatory attitude that destroys lives, and the gay people in western society aren't going to put up with that kind of crap, either."

Well said.

[OldEurope]

118. Have you tried to figure out, why,

"in many non-western cultures most males have had lots of homosexual experience"?
Is that, because women are strictly banned from any experience, and forced into slavery? And how many of those men are forced to homosexual experience?
And how exactly is it not hypocisy to just not talk about it, but loudly damn homosexuality in the mosqes?

[Douglas Carpenter]

120. I find a milder version of the same idea in the Philippines

most young men had some homosexual experiences - but I'm sure most Filipinos in the Philippines would also say that it was a sin. There is not the sort of male/female separation there - As far as countries where there is - maybe that is part of it. I don't think there are a whole lot more forced homosexual experiences than in the western world. But, in general I have found in the "third world" a bigger gap between official reality and actual reality than I have found in the western world.

[eridani]

146. True of most of the world. Men can fuck all the men they like, as long as--

--they also marry and also fulfil expected gender roles.

[Douglas Carpenter]

147. well, that is one way to put it

And you are probably right that is probably most of the world. It is the western model that is the aberration

[valerief]

102. It sounds like "Republican gay." nt

[Bluenorthwest]

106. Same thing. Baptist Gay. Latter Day Gay.

The OP is under the impression that the Halal version of sexual hypocrisy is unique among cultures and faiths. It's not.

[theHandpuppet]

125. Yes.

Remarkably so.

[get the red out]

128. LOL

[riderinthestorm]

12. So the Muslim gay community is out and public?

Just trying to figure out what you mean?

Are you Muslim? Or a citizen of either of those countries?

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. no, I am not Muslim and I am only a citizen of the U.S.

No there is not an openly gay culture among the locals. But as I have tried to point out to others than in many non western cultures - most males have had a number of homosexual experiences and the strict delineation between gay, straight and bisexual is a western construct that much of the non western world does not understand.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. The Western World understands it Doug. I see it as a form of deep denial of truth.

Hypocrisy is not that hard to understand. It is universal. And that's all it is, hypocrisy. Religious fakery, posturing, pretense. They do it, but then deny it and will also punish others who get 'caught' doing it.
Does that strike you as complex, or foreign to the American mind? Our own religious bigots are also very often 'caught' in sexual activities they condemn in others. Our own laws against gay people are not that long in the past. This is not something Americans discuss as aliens to the process.
I also do not agree with you that an LGBT identity is a construct. I find that to border on the bigoted. Can I say that a religious identity that is not supported by adherence to the behavioral demands of that religion is a construct, a mask in fact, worn to hide the truth. It is a questionable use of God, to use the divine as a facade to cover up the truth.

[closeupready]

87. Completely agree with you, 100%, here. Most of us know anatomy,

physiology, sexuality, etc. ("us" as in eduated adults everywhere). We know how it manifests in the male. We know that there is homosexual behavior among almost every animal species observed. It's not a mystery. That doesn't mean that homosexual behavior doesn't exist if people generally fail to observe acts of homosexuality.

[pangaia]

35. It looks like nobody will accept simply what your experience was.

They have to use what you say to say something else.
Glad you reported what you did experience.

I spent a very brief time in Oman, and if I reported that quite a number of military people I worked with, or 'for,' including a Captain and a Major, went to the local bar in the evening, I wonder what replies that would bring here. My only mistake was the first night in asking for "Omani Beer." THAT brought the house down.

[riderinthestorm]

46. If its such a common subtext, why are LGBT people hunted and punished under the law?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Homosexuals_(Saudi_Arabia)

The oppression of women in these countries is particularly harsh, which includes lesbians,transgendered and bi-sexual but you seem to be glossing over that as well....

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. I am not glossing over anything. I am reporting my personal experience

[riderinthestorm]

60. If nobody cares about it, why the ferocity in prosecution?

I'm not dismissing YOUR experience, I'm trying to reconcile that with the very real prosecutions and executions of LGBT people in KSA and in many, many other Muslim majority countries.

[Douglas Carpenter]

63. I don't understand it either

I was never involved with locals - I'm a very prudish person. But I had number of "screaming queen" western and Filipino friends who had lots of both short term and long term relationships with locals. I don't know of anywhere in the Islamic world where homosexuality is not ubiquitous and benignly accepted. What is not usually accepted is for a local person to openly call themselves gay. They can be gay - as long as they plan to marry and have kids or get married and have kids. They fulfill that part and then - no one seems to care about their homosexual relationships. I can't say I think it is the way to go. It is the way it is, though.

[riderinthestorm]

64. The juxtaposition of "commonly accepted" with 10000 lashes

Or execution... These aren't theoreticals, they're real cases.

... Just seems like cognitive dissonance.

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. well -all I can tell you is talk to other gay people who lived and worked in the Middle East and

most of them will tell you the same thing I am saying. I agree that there is a big gap between the actual reality and the official reality. I don't get it myself.

[valerief]

104. Because laws don't serve the people's needs, not in the ME and not here

in the US. Laws serve the needs of the very wealthy and if their politics requires punishments, punishment it is.

People are victims of their (sometimes unofficial) state religion. Some go nuts with it and some fight it and some accept the burden of it.

[Arugula Latte]

78. Women can't drive though, right?

That sounds pretty damn oppressive to me.

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. Correct - in Saudi Arabia women can't drive and that sounds pretty damned oppressive to me too

[sufrommich]

113. It's not just that they can't drive,they can't leave

the house without a male escort,they can't vote,they can't open a bank account without a husband's permission,they can't talk to men they don't know on the street,they can't play sports (gym classes are for boys only),women under the age of 45 can't travel without a permission form signed by a male guardian. Women are treated like children in Saudi Arabia.

[seveneyes]

4. Why are Women not allowed to drive and walk freely about with their hair in the wind?

WTF is up with that bigoted puritanical religious bullshit?

[Violet_Crumble]

5. It's because of Wahhabism. And that's Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

8. The subject of this thread is Saudi Arabia, not the entire Muslim world.

The topic is 'SA is super gay friendly' and the OP claims all gay people are free to openly thrive and make families, open businesses and the culture there is ultra supportive and inclusive.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. The OP title says UAE as well, and mentions the Muslim world...

See, I read the OP, and what yr claiming Douglas said isn't what he said at all. He said that no-one really seemed to care that he was gay, and the only grief he ever got was from Westerners.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. He also said other things such as they don't accept their own gay kids.

I do not claim he said that, literally but that is how his views sound to me. A place where a native born gay person can not live openly is not a good place for gay people. The end.

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. gee, I didn't know I said that

[Bluenorthwest]

13. It's a satrical reading of your views 'they won't accept their gay children and sometimes they

deport gay foreigners, women can't drive but aside from that it is Key West'. Just not buying what you are selling, Doug.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. I'm not selling anything and I am not expressing any views or opinions whatsoever

I'm just explaining what it was like. I'm frankly glad I am not there anymore. I like it much better in the Pacific. I do miss the money and the food though

[MADem]

71. Sorry--somehow this ended up posted in the wrong spot.

I wanted to make a point about hijab in Iran elsewhere and it ended up here...

[pangaia]

37. The OP claims nothing of the sort.

He is reporting what HIS experience was. Nothing more, nothng less.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. as far as I known Saudi is the only Islamic country that has that rule about drving and mandates

that women must cover their hair outside. It's the only Middle Eastern country where shops are required to close during pray time too. They do have plenty of puritanical bullshit, I don't disagree with that.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. The questoin asked was 'why do they not let women drive' not 'is SA the only country that has that

rule'. You did not answer the question. Why do they treat the women like that? How can you claim gay people are accepted when half of gay people are women and women are so controlled?
A place that mistreats women mistreats all people. That's how I see it.

[theHandpuppet]

16. +1000

Thank you.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. it is a stupid rule. They should have changed it a long time ago

[get the red out]

129. Absolutely!!!!!

Patriarchal assholes hate and stomp on anyone but their own; women, gay people, you name it. Saudi Arabia is among the worst countries in the world. I despise Saudi Arabia for this and always have. I wish the US had the decency to not even have an embassy there.

[MADem]

73. There are asinine hijab rules in Iran now, too (not before under shah). Women can drive, though. nt

[Scootaloo]

152. Well, under the Shah, the secret police could rape whoever they wanted, to "force confession"

Reza himself could (and did) demand the company of women who caught his eye. There was no refusal, you either wnrt to the Shah's bed, or your brothers and father disappeared and you went to the Shah's bed anyway.

But yes, they got to wear their hair unbound. What a glorious time for women that was.

[MADem]

167. And under the Guardian council, you think it's all fun and games?

Here's a clue--what the shah did--and I don't defend him--PALES in comparison to what the regime of the Ayatullahs has done in Iran. There's no invitation to anyone's bed. And all that raping you're talking about happens in Evin Prison nowadays. Further, it's not just the females who are at risk.

And finally, if your family gets the body back after all is said and done, they're LUCKY.

You lack understanding. Grievously. Here, read the 'latest' :

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-investigate-black-thursday-brutality-evin-prison-2014-05-14

http://www.iranhumanrights.org/2011/06/saeed-pourheidar-1/ (many more at this link)

You think, naively, it's all about "letting" women wear their "hair unbound?" Really?

Tell that to this woman:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/iran-free-ghoncheh-jailed-wanting-watch-volleyball


Or these: http://www.iranhumanrights.org/2014/09/more-gender-segregation/

The accelerated efforts to restrict women’s access to jobs, professions, and public venues continue in Iran. In the latest announcement, Colonel Khalil Helali, Head of the Public Buildings Office of the Iranian Police, said on August 30, 2014, that henceforth women are not allowed employment in coffee shops, coffee houses, and traditional Iranian restaurants. No laws or reasons were cited as the basis for the decision to bar women from having such jobs.

Shargh Daily also reported on September 2, 2014, that women are now banned from appearing on stage at musical performances in 13 provinces across the country. Only bands without any female members will be granted the required performance license, according to the report.

Yeah ...it's all about that "hair unbound."

[Scootaloo]

187. Well, you were griping about theirwearing hair coverings

Not about their treatment in prison.

so.

i have to come to the conclusion that the former is more important to you than the latter.

[MADem]

190. The whole manteau/hijab business is simply representative of more horrific things--it's not a start

or a finish.

Sort of like how a fever or vomiting can suggest the body is in crisis. They aren't the start and finish of disease either (ask the ebola sufferers).

You don't do a very good job at coming to conclusions when it comes to me, so you might want to quit while behind.

[Hobo]

148. In Qatar

The stores and shops closed during friday noon prayers. So SA is not the only one.


Paul

[m-lekktor]

20. I was stationed on a USN flag ship in Bahrain in the late 80's

and travelled to many middle eastern countries often including Saudi Arabia and I find this post bizarre. I remember religious police in the rest rooms making sure people weren't getting sips of water during daylight during ramadan for example. How ex pats from the west are treated is completely different than how locals are I AM SURE. I would seriously hate to be a gay man over there born locally. this is some serious putting lipstick on a pig going on here unless things have LIBERALIZED quite a bit there for the locals since the late 80's when i was living over there in Bahrain and travelling about. how they treat american expats or other western expats is NOT a reflection of how things are there, imo.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. yes, Western people are treated with lots of favoritism - no doubt about that

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Who would have thunk Riyadh is a Middle Eastern version of Chelsea, West Hollywood, and Fire Island?

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. that it was not. Riyadh is got to be the most soulless city I have ever visited. The place has no

personality whatsoever.

[Scootaloo]

153. Clearly DouglasCarpenter didn't think that

But acknowleging that would violate your adherance to hatred, wouldn't it?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

155. If you think it's adherence to hatred...

If you think it's adherence to hatred to question the dubious assertion that it's okay to be gay in a nation where homosexual acts subject one to capital punishment there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Scootaloo]

156. DouglasCarpenter is relating his experiences in Saudi Arabia.

You claim that he is saying it is some liberal pro-gay paradise. He's not.

The fact is, DouglasCarpenter's personal experiences don't mesh with the preconceived notions you're comfortable with. They don't completely dash those notions, but they don't line up perfectly, either. so rather than go "huh, maybe there's a little more nuance than I thought," you go on a rampage against DouglasCarpenter, making up fake statements and attributing them to him in order to make yourself more comfortable.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

159. Arguing with anecdotes or one's personal experience as a basis is always fraught with danger, ergo

Arguing with anecdotes or one's personal experience as a basis is always fraught with danger, ergo...

My girlfriend's best friend is a Filipina pre-operative transgendered female who like a lot of Filipinos and Filipinas worked abroad. One of the places Bianca, nee Jaime worked in was Saudi Arabia. She was a servant, i.e, love interest for a rich Saudi so I have some anecdotal knowledge of Saudi attitudes toward homosexuality to compliment the more trustworthy empirical evidence one gets from reading and studying.

Am I so naive that I believe all Saudis want to willy nilly harm gay folks? Of course not... But there is no law to protect gay folks from harm from those who want to harm gay folks. In fact the law countenances it. That's a huge thing.

[Scootaloo]

160. The only argument presented is that Saudi Arabi's culture isn't a cartoon

Which does seem to be the prevalent feeling around here, that saudi arabia - and basically everywhere else on the planet that has even a handful of Muslims - is a hellish desert waste inhabited by head-chopping homophobic woman-haters one and all. An outlandish caricature designed to dehumanize and thus justify abuses from us onto them, that justifies our support of tyrannical regimes to 'control," them, that justifies our perception of Muslims in our own communities as a dangerous and deadly "fifth column."

DouglasCarpenter related that this outlandish caricature isn't accurate, using his own experiences. And of course, experiences vary. But it is that variance itself that proves his point that it is not this cartoon so often depicted.

But rather than wrap your head around that, you lie and misrepresent what he is saying, you dismiss his experiences, and attack him personally.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. I was using hyperbole or sarcasm...

"I just knew lots and lots of openly gay western and Filipino people who worked in the Middle East and they were as openly gay as anyone living in San Francisco."

-Douglas Carpenter


I was using hyperbole too...

Suggesting that a gay holocaust in the Middle East is not around the corner and suggesting that gay folks in many Middle Eastern nations need to lead closeted, self abnegating lives, and when their real lives are discovered they are at the tender mercies of their compatriots because there is no law to protect them are not mutually exclusive. That is my point.

[Douglas Carpenter]

157. I know about these reports a I have scene the youtube videos - I'm only reporting the on-the-ground

reality based on 25 years of living the on-the-ground reality - Lots and lots and lots of openly gay foreigners as openly gay as anyone in Greenwich Village or the Castro District - and a benign acceptance of local people in homosexual relationships and experiences provided they are either married with children or plan to be married with children and they don't self-label themselves. I' m not asserting this is the ideal mode. But ONLY westerners hassled me about being gay or almost anything else in my 25 years there. I'm only reporting the facts.

[MADem]

169. On the ground? You lived in a COMPOUND in SA--you might as well have been living in Cleveland.

You can wear bathing suits and swim with the opposite gender on "compounds," too.

It doesn't mean a thing. Outside those walls, life is Very Different Indeed.


The maximum punishment for the "crime" of homosexuality in Saudi Arabia is DEATH.


DEATH.


You are NOT reporting "the facts." You're reporting some silly little anecdotes and you have no idea how LUCKY you were to escape that place with your head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/24/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death/

[Douglas Carpenter]

171. I worked with lots and lots of Saudis - I knew many, many gay people who lived downtown

For the last five years I was the only westerners in department of about 20 Saudis and lived in an apartment building that was about 90% Saudis. In in Abu Dhabi I lived in downtown Al Ain. I am simply reporting the facts of what life was like for myself and countless numbers of foreign gay people who lived there. This is reality, My experience was the normal experience for foreign gay people living in Saudi and the UAE - nothing more - nothing thing less - I'm only lucky in the sense that I lived there and saw the real world - not fantasy land.

Hm, what do I believe what I personally saw and lived for 25 years or some article?

[MADem]

175. See post 173.

I don't think you ever "cracked the code." You were the one living in fantasy land, and you should thank your lucky stars you never saw the harsh reality.

[KittyWampus]

27. You most have been working amidst an elite… people wealthy enough to live in a protected bubble.

I could see if you were designing buildings or rooms for the Royals and their cronies… or something like that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. My first job was in a remote village in the mountains in a tribal region - I did live on a western

managed compound. My second job in Abu Dhabi I did live in a normal neighborhood in the city. My last job which I left a three years ago June was on a military base about 20 miles from Al Khobar. I never had any contact with any royals or exceptionally wealthy locals.

[liberal_at_heart]

29. forget it. it's a lost cause here on DU. There is a very loud although I have to wonder just how

large group(loud doesn't necessarily equal large) here on DU who hate religion and nothing you say will change that. I just delete the hateful threads.

[DrDan]

154. Yep - many "open-minded" liberals here who think it is cool

To bash anyone who happens to have religious beliefs.

I am agnostic but am embarrassed by their lack of maturity.

[bullwinkle428]

30. Jeeze, what's next - "Saudi Arabia is a great vacation hot-spot for Jews"?

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. no, actually I an glad I don't live there anymore. I am only trying to explain what it was like

[whathehell]

42. What is was like for gay men -- It's only hellish for HALF of the human race, then.

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. the society is very oppressive toward women. It is not possible for any rational person to deny that

[Lurks Often]

33. That seems consistent with things I have read over the years

that Americans and other foreigners working key jobs were given a great deal of latitude in how they lived their lives as long as they weren't aggressive or extreme (by Middle Eastern standards) in expressing it in public.

I've also read a number of accounts by British authors, including Rudyard Kipling, that the Pathan/Pashtun on the border of what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan openly practiced homosexuality.

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. That is a fair statement

[whathehell]

43. I think you mean for American and foreign MEN..

The fact of BEING a female there seems to be viewed as "aggressive and 'extreme'.

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. I would say most western women who worked there enjoyed theit time there. But westerners in general

are treated with a favoritism not afforded to locals and non-westerners whether Muslim or not

[Bluenorthwest]

54. I hope you can understand this. For me, the way I was raised, it is not good to enjoy being treated

with favoritism while others are treated differently. This is the very definition of a privilege dynamic.
Those who are bribed with favoritism and special treatment tend to defend the oppressive society and at the same time they avoid doing anything to advocate equality or fair treatment for all.
I personally think it is wrong to live like that, and such dynamics must be subverted at every opportunity. To accept such double standards is to endorse them. To enjoy them? If there is such a thing as sin, that's a sin.

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. ANY western person living, working or even vacationing in ANY developing country is almost certainly

going to have a position of privilege very few locals will ever experience. In fact in that regard I would say my position of privilege and favoritism was much higher when I lived in the Philippines.

[Bluenorthwest]

69. Of course.

Your OP claims that the state of privilege in which you lived is a worthy metric for assessment of the human rights conditions for those who do not have such privilege. I do not think that it is.

[Douglas Carpenter]

70. I guess I must have missed the part where I claimed that

[MADem]

100. They still can't go anywhere without hijab/chador or a male guardian--so it's only "OK" on the

compounds--it's most definitely NOT "ok" out in the community.

[whathehell]

126. Many professionals, women in particular, simply won't go there...

They are, for instance, in a chronic shortfall of ESL teachers, even though

they offer excellent salaries and benefits and I think their reputation for

oppression and cruelty has much to do with it.

Beheading people for crimes like "adultery" doesn't earn them many Western fans either.

[Lurks Often]

53. I'm not saying that the Middle East is some enlightened land

I am saying, along with the OP, that it isn't quite as black and white as most would make it.

Within the compounds set aside for foreigners, I doubt women face any significant pressures.

As for outside the compounds, it would seem that within reason, the rules that apply to Western men applies to women as well:

http://www.peacexpeace.org/2012/05/an-american-woman-in-saudi-arabia

Certainly the single entry I read showed far more compassion and consideration that I would expect out of my employer.

[whathehell]

127. You say you "doubt" foreign women face any significant challenges, which

sounds like you don't really know,

I've read their recruitment ads for ESL teachers and they are given "drivers", so

I assume that they, like the local women, are not allowed to drive.

Did you actually know any Western women while you worked there?

[Lurks Often]

137. Did you bother to read the link?

It's by a woman who does work there. Maybe it doesn't fit with your pre-conceived notions and prejudices, but since she lives and works there, she has more credibility then anything you post.

So take your anti-Muslim bigotry somewhere else.

[whathehell]

138. No, I was mistakenly responding to another post -- It happens.

Pre-conceived notions?...Read the OP, genius

He's lived there 25 years and admits that women are "horribly oppressed"

Forget not being allowed to drive, try getting BEHEADED for adultery, duh

No, it doesn't happen to foreign women -- They get few enough as it is,

but it DOES happen to local women, so take YOUR pre-conceived notions

about my supposed "bigotry" elsewhere and try LEARNING something!

[Lurks Often]

150. I read the OP

and my comments were specific to Western and other foreign women.

It seems your reading comprehension needs work

[whathehell]

168. Really?

and you deduced that because FOREIGN women, as

opposed to the locals, are treated well, everything is fine

and my comments indicate "anti-muslim bigotry".

It seems you're brain needs work.

[Lurks Often]

183. Aren't you funny with your poor reading skills

take your outrage elsewhere, it's boring.

And your reading comprehension still sucks, my comments were that foreign women were treated decently and I supplied a link to a Western woman living in Saudi Arabia, which is more then you've been able to manage.

I never said that Saudi women were treated well.

[whathehell]

189. Aren't you pathetic with your poor writing skills

and jerk-off belligerence?

Take your shit manners back to the Gun Nut forum -- They

may reek a little less there.

[Lurks Often]

196. Lol, you're the one that started this sub thread with poor manners

by responding to the wrong person, not bothering to read links and reading that somehow I approved of how Saudi women were treated despite me never saying anything of the sort.

If you had bothered to be polite in the first place, then you would have had a basis for your responses, since you weren't I responded in kind.

[whathehell]

199. Responding to the wrong person is "poor manners", LOL?

Actually, most people call that a "mistake", genius, but then I'm sure you never

make those, because you're too "well- mannered".


Do you know how people here generally respond to a post mistakenly sent to the wrong person?

They say "Oh, okay" and go about their business. For reasons unknown, you decided to make

it a point of contention, coming out swinging, with absurd and allegations of my harboring

some "anti-muslim bigotry"..Riiiiight.

When that didn't fly, you tried making some asinine assertion about my "poor reading skills".

Frankly, I think you're just pissed that no one answered your post, and so jumped

on me because I answered someone ELSE instead of your self-important ass.

As I said, go back to the gun nuts -- It seems you're not used to a place where you

don't get LOTS of attention.

[whathehell]

38. It sounds like you're doing much better than the average woman there.

Maybe that shouldn't surprise me -- After all, you're still male, right?

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. no doubt about that - the society is very opressive toward woman

[whathehell]

40. Fabulous..

Did that bother you at all, or is it just a matter of how YOU and your fellow

men are treated?

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. I thought and still think it was terrible.

I'm reporting my experience not defending their oppressive social order

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. We're gilding the lily here.

It's terrible for gay men (and) women in many Islamic countries.

Saudi Arabia is such a sexually segregated nation that a lot of homosexual activity goes unnoticed.

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. there's little if any acceptance of people openly identifying themselves as gay in the Islamic world

but everywhere that I have heard of or know about in the Islamic world - homosexual activity is ubiquitous and benignly accepted. I don't know how to explain the two frames of mind. I am certainly not suggesting that is how it should be. I am only reporting how it is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. It's a tradition in Saudi Arabia for men to hold hands.

Last edited Tue Oct 7, 2014, 10:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Two men walking down the street in Riyadh holding hands would raise less eyebrows than two men walking down the street holding hands in even New York City or Los Angeles.


I am sure the segregation of the sexes leads to a lot of sub rosa homosexuality activity.

After all Ayatollah Khomeini said " whenever a man and woman are alone in a room the third person is Satan."

[nomorenomore08]

141. "whenever a man and woman are alone in a room the third person is Satan." That is just...

Explains a lot about the sexual pathologies of fundamentalist Islam, I suppose.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. It is the same way here. The fundamental religionists preach against and seek to punish gay people

but they are often found in gay related scandals. This is because it is not the sex that bothers them, it is the love and the honesty. 'As long as you hide it, lie about it, get a wife and lie to her about it, it's super great!'

It is not a puzzling 'two frames of mind' is is simply hypocrisy. It is denial. It is lying about what is true and proclaiming lies as truth instead. There is no mystery to this. It is a universal scenario among humans, not exclusive to any faith or nation. It is common as dirt.

[whathehell]

132. I would have to agree with that..

I've also heard that, in some Muslim countries, men who are not particularly

"homosexual" have sex with boys or men because sex with women is SO

taboo.

[eallen]

49. I can't help but wonder how much that had to do with you being a foreigner

Foreigners are exceptions. In many ways.

I wonder what stories we would get from the average gay Saudi?

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. well - I never met a Saudi who self-identified as gay

Although homosexual behavior is widely practiced by most young Saudi men. I agree that western people are treated with favoritism.

[Baitball Blogger]

55. Yeah. Change comes late even for the U.S.

If only the Bush Administration had not meddled with the US gay translators. That move was a National Security fiasco.

[hrmjustin]

57. Is it still true SA does not allow Churche or other house of worship built there?

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. yes, however there are two churches on the Aramco compound in Khobar and of course there are chapels

in many embassy or consulate compounds

[hrmjustin]

66. So there is no religious freedom.

[Douglas Carpenter]

67. as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned - that would pretty much be the case

[hrmjustin]

94. And the UAE?

[Douglas Carpenter]

97. there are churches in the UAE and Hindu temples too. It is not a western democracy but it is a lot

more open than Saudi Arabia

[hrmjustin]

98. That is good to hear.

Too many religious minorities in the ME are forced to leave because of persecution.

[fxstc]

61. I worked in Saudi Arabia for 11 years

and didn't feel the need to let anyone know about my sexual preferences. Its no ones business but my partner and myself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Maybe what you are describing is how gay folks used to be treated in the USA

A lot of people were ambivalent about homosexuality in the truest sense of the word and adopted a live and let live attitude because they knew a lot of people weren't ambivalent. They were violently opposed to homosexuality and the consequence of outing one as homosexual could be catastrophic. That's a long way from acceptance.

[CJCRANE]

75. The definition of homosexuality may be different

in Arabic countries.

That's certainly the impression I got on my travels in nearby countries (in the 90s).

The culture is very different from what we perceive of it from a distance.

[NCTraveler]

74. In all of your time in Suadi Arabia....

Did one single Saudi man ever self-identify themselves as gay? In all that time I am sure you crossed paths with many men who were out.

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. I met one UAE national who did

Of course among other nationalities; Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinians and obviously Lebanese there were a handful. I can't say I ever met a Saudi who self-identified as being gay. A number who probably were - but it is a little hard to say - when you have a culture where almost all young men and boys have had a fair number of homosexual experiences but at the same it is expected that they all will get married and have children.

[NCTraveler]

82. Your replies aren't matching the tone of your op in any way.

I'm not sure how you can respond to my question in the manner you did and still stand behind the premise of your op. There is a disconnect there.

[Douglas Carpenter]

89. the premise of my OP is that I was openly gay in Saudi Arabia and it was well known by everyone I

worked with and that was the case for several other foreign gay people I know. The disconnect is that I am not pushing a political line. I am telling my experience - the good as well as the bad. I guess telling the truth sometimes does create a cognitive dissonance and does not always support an ideological line

[NCTraveler]

107. Yes, I think you have fully argued against the premise of your op with your own replies.

I lived in the Bible Belt in Florida for years. Knew many gay individuals and there were gay rights groups. I am talking public activism. You say that all of your time in Saudi Arabia you never met one single man who was out. Also, not one Saudi confided in you that they were gay. It really doesn't take much dot connecting here. Why would Saudi men have such a stigma that not one single Saudi male in your time there alluded to their proclivity towards men? Or men and women? How did you fair in gay bars while in Saudi? What form of public activism did you witness?

Your ideological line is that they are moving in the right direction because they have gay men and women in such fear that none of them would even be willing to tell you about their proclivities in the time you were there. It is not cognitive dissonance as you say. Some of us are in the know. In order for your op to be truthful in your mind, I am assuming that your time in Saudi was spent on a base or compound of some type and that your contact with the general population was extremely limited.

[Douglas Carpenter]

108. no I worked in a hospital along side local people all the time

I'm simply describing my experience - nothing more - nothing less. It is a society that accepts foreign gay people quite well for the most part - and benignly accepts homosexual activity among its local population - but not the label

[MADem]

173. You were an infidel; had you been a practicing Muslim you would have had trouble. BIG trouble.

You'd have been relieved of your head, likely as not.

Infidels are "tolerated" if they have a use but they are regarded as sub-human; like monkeys who "do the work."

You aren't going to Paradise, you see--like pets or those who don't follow Islam. See, it's not "cognitive dissonance." You just didn't understand how little they thought of you. They can affect extreme politeness and bonhomie; it doesn't mean they have genuine regard for you or believe you are their equal. I'm sure you were the topic of a lot of conversation outside your earshot, and much of it would probably hurt your feelings if you knew what was said.

You just aren't one of them, to their minds, any more than an insect or a camel or a horse (actually, depending on the situation, there'd probably be more regard for a camel or a horse).

The minute you started messing with a Muslim and got found out, though, you'd have their attention and you would be invited to spend some time in prison at best, or lose your head at worst.

Your OP does not accurately reflect beliefs and attitudes of Saudis towards those amongst them who practice Islam. It does not reflect their views of their own population.

Your suggestion that they're somehow "closeted liberals" in SA is just not supported by empirical evidence.

Check out all the imprisonments, lashes, and executions for the "crime " of what you're calling "no big deal in Saudi Arabia."

[Douglas Carpenter]

176. I knew only a few gay Muslims - but they were married with children - they never had any problems

It was common knowledge by everyone and was told this personally by Saudis that younger Saudis almost always have homosexual relationships before they get married. Many, many, many of the gay people I knew - both western and Filipino hand many, many, many relationships - both short term and long term with Saudis and other Muslims. It was well known to all the friends and family of these Saudis and other Muslims. I was an exceptional gay foreigner in that I was never involved with any Saudis or other Muslims. The vast majority of the countless number of gay western people I knew were.

As far as what they thought of me - the young Saudis and other Muslims I worked with certainly treated me with more respect and dignity than I ever received on the U.S. mainland.

I guess I still don't know what to believe - my own eyes and ears and what I personally lived for 25 years or some links on the Internet to an anti-Islamic hate site.

[MADem]

177. I think your commentary and "No problem, dude" attitude is disturbing in the extreme.

You just don't get it, I fear.

Just because people live their lives COVERTLY and IN FEAR because they HAVE NO OTHER OPTION does not make it OK.

No one cared what you did because you aren't going to Paradise. You are not Muslim, you are not a member of the club, you are an infidel, you and my pet dog have the same value in their eyes (and that value is ZERO). They care as much about what "you" do as they do what a camel in the desert does. That doesn't mean that your actions don't have the potential to put the lives of people who don't have the "come and go as you please" option that you enjoyed in real, serious, life-threatening danger.

I don't get why you keep insisting that it is "no big deal" when people are imprisoned, flogged and killed for this "crime" of orientation.

You're saying that your "special" treatment (combined with dumb luck) somehow obviates the norm?

You really need to be a bit more insightful and introspective. Just because you "got away with it" doesn't mean the situation on the ground there is acceptable.

[Douglas Carpenter]

178. I guess if I just made up a bunch of lies It would be less disturbing - but I am reporting what I

saw and lived for 25 years - Homosexuality is ubiquitous and benignly accepted among most Muslim people provided they are either married with children or plan to be married with children. The vast majority of Western and Filipino gay people I knew had relationships both short and long term with Saudis, UAE nationals and other Muslims. My exception to the situation was that I did not.

[MADem]

179. The one suffering from cognitive dissonance is YOU.

It's not about "lies" -- it's about your naive attitude. YOU don't suffer the consequences, you non-Muslim, you--YOU don't live in the community in SA, like the locals do--so THEIR imprisonment, flogging or death sentence is not YOUR problem. You never got caught in a situation that could bring the law down on you, nor did anyone that you--in your limited, compounded circle--knew get caught, so that makes it all OK.

Everything's hunky dory....because it doesn't touch YOU.

I'm starting to wonder if this isn't an elaborate leg-pulling exercise.

I can't imagine anyone having such a profound lack of empathy or such a robust willingness to ignore what is the bitter and scary reality for gay people in SA and in many nations in that region of the world. You keep parroting "This is MY experience" but unless you live in a bubble you have to know that your "special" experience is nothing like the experience of people who live their lives AT RISK every frigging day of their existences.

[Douglas Carpenter]

180. I'm simply reporting what I saw,lived and experienced for 25 years- living and working closely with

many, many Saudis and other Muslims for much of that time.

[MADem]

181. You're simply turning a blind eye to persecution and discrimination because it didn't touch YOU.

When was the last time you were there?

The compounds are rapidly being "Saudi-ized" and regional/other national actors are increasing in number in recent years; the freewheeling "Never mind him, he's an infidel" attitudes you may have encountered might not be so readily accepted these days.

[Douglas Carpenter]

185. It didn't touch anyone else I knew either except when I was working the remote tribal region of

of Al Baha in the Asir Mountains in the late 80's. Then there were a handful of cases of people being sent home for being gay. That did happen. But since then including my two and a half years in Al Ain, Abu Dhabi, UAE or my nineteen and half years on a Saudi Arabian Army base about 20 miles from Al Khobar - A place that had become very Saudized in the last several years I was there (in fact it was always pretty Saudized - it was a Saudi Army base) did I know anyone or hear of anyone being fired or in anyway persecuted for being gay. It may have happened - but I did not hear of it and I did tend to listen for such things.

The fact is homosexual relationships are much more common among the non-Infidels than they are among us Infidels. Why is it overlooked 99.99% of the time even when only Muslims are involved and then once in awhile it is treated as a serious crime? I don't know. Probably it is taken seriously when somebody pissed somebody with more power off for some unrelated reason.

I am not suggesting Saudi Arabia is a liberal and enlightened society. It is not. It is not however the cartoon caricature that many think it is. And I do not buy that all this anti-Muslim hate being generated is motivated by empathy for Muslim people.

[MADem]

191. So, those people at Amnesty International are a buncha liars? Those people pleading for asylum

here, in Europe, in Canada and elsewhere, who know that if they go home, they die, are just being "hysterical?" ( and quotes are there for a reason).

I think you are mistaking "culture" for something else. The sexes are segregated, there is no "macho man" attitude in that milieu, affection is not something to be feared or rejected; but if you think--for a second--that talking about "being gay" is "OK" in KSA you are horribly mistaken. Again, the individual in charge is NOT gay--the submissive partner, though, might well be (their POV, not mine) . It's a power game as a consequence of sexual urge and non-availability of females owing to sex segregation. Try suggesting that a person engaging in sexual relations in this manner is gay at your own risk.

A lot of people are "gay" in prisons, too. Ask them if they are, though, and they'll tell you otherwise. Just because people engage in homosexual behaviors does not make them gay. Sexuality is not binary, it's sometimes a function of culture, circumstance and opportunity. In sum, one takes what one can get--not necessarily what one might like.

Did you ever stop to think that the people in your small, censored world knew enough to watch their six, not take risks, and keep their mouths shut?

Look, here's my POV--if one single person is "punished" in any way for being the way they are born, then that's just wrong. It can't be excused, it can't be mitigated, it can't be brushed aside as an "Oh well" kind of thing. It is something that is WRONG with that society--and it's not just about gay men, it's about gender segregation, lack of opportunity for women, treatment of women as property, that fosters this society you think is full of happy gay guys (who are simply frustrated heterosexuals, many of them, with no options). You can't kick that under the carpet and then finger wag about how people "don't understand" the conservative/fundamentalist sector of the Arab/Muslim world. They DO understand it, and they understand what the problem is--take half the society and stuff them behind a veil, behind walls, don't educate them to their potential, limit their world view, discourage their self-actualization, limit their movement so that they are unable to interact in larger society, and what you saw (and thought, because of your own perspective, was just dandy) is what you get.

I doubt you'd want to put your money where your mouth was and go back there and make a public announcement to your peers and acquaintances in any compound that you were gay. You wouldn't want to point to this acquaintance or that, and tell them "Say it loud, now brother, you're gay and you're proud!" That'd go over like a lead balloon. You know in your heart that you'd risk your job if not your life if you did anything like that. And I think, if you spend some time ruminating about it, that if Saudi society became more open so that single women and men could interact and make decisions about partnerships, marriage, and social interactions without a lot of censorship, limits, and interference, that all this "happy gay activity" you thought you saw would probably retract to levels that are equivalent to any civilized society where gays are not persecuted.

[Douglas Carpenter]

192. I don't understand the contradiction either - Lots and lots of openly gay foreign workers in a place

that does have a record of also arbitrarily persecuting people for being gay on rare but arbitrary occasions. But that is how it is. I was openly gay - everyone knew it. Countless numbers of other western and Filipino workers I knew were openly gay and many of them had relationships with Saudis and other Muslim people and everyone knew it. That's just how it was - I was there 25 years - Everyone is well aware that this is the situation. Although, no doubt there is selective, rare and arbitrary persecution of gay people as well. That is what the place is like. I'm not defending their system. I got sick really of it and never liked large parts of it from day one. I'm just trying to educate people about the difference between reality and perception. Saudi is not the model to follow. It is a theocratic and corrupt totalitarian police state. It is also not the cartoon caricature many people think it is.

[MADem]

197. This is probably a bit TL/DR, but I hope you'll try to wade through it and I hope I am expressing

myself with at least a bit of clarity.

I hate to repeat it, but it's because they didn't have respect for you as a person that they "tolerate" you as "gay." (The quotes are deliberate, as there's a difference, discussed downthread, between having sex with someone of the same gender, and being gay.) As an infidel, you lacked humanity, you lacked a soul. I'm not saying this to be rude, I am trying to explain a mindset. If you "self-identify" as "gay," that's a problematic label for someone who follows Islam.

People from the west often think that because a society of people are polite, even friendly, that they actually like them and respect them. In actual fact, the culture demands politeness, hospitality, courtesies towards guests (to do otherwise in a harsh environment could mean death otherwise). Over in Iran, at the edge of the "middle eastern" region, they even have a name for it--taarof. It's fake. It's plastered on, it's thin as paper. It's horribly insincere, but it is interwoven into the society. Only very recently are the young people striving to dispense with some of that shit, but even they can get sucked in because it is so traditional.

People who live there know this--they may use/even abuse the notion of taarof to "find shit out" about people, or get a bit of gossip, but if they do it too much people who are victims of it will hear the doorbell and refuse to answer it if they know who is on the other side of the door. I can't tell you how many times I've done that, and been in homes of close friends where we laugh like hell (quietly) while we have waited for Nosy Parker to go away. The minute they're in the door, though, you've got to be courteous. No exceptions. It's a "rule" that most people in the west don't get.

The Japanese do the same thing when it comes to being gracious--they can be charming to your face, and talk about you in unflattering terms in front of you when they think you don't understand (which, if you let on, can lead to some interesting scenes of self-humiliation in a formal setting). But that's tangential, I only include it to point out that the western paradigms don't apply in a variety of settings, not just Islamic ones.


I think, what you might be trying to express (but--and I don't mean this in a mean way, you're failing miserably to do...your OP sounds like an endorsement, even if that isn't what you meant) can be found in this ATLANTIC (no fan of them, particularly, but this article hits the notes) article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/

It's long, but please click/read--I do think this is sort of what you are trying to say.

Of course, this piece is seven years old, and the "fundy 'tude" waxes and wanes there--it has been so doing for the past two decades, at least.

Perhaps the clearest and most concise way to explain it all is as follows--there's a real and IMPORTANT difference in that region between "engaging in sex with a person of the same gender" and "being gay." The former is tolerated if a person is young and single or the wife is indisposed, so long as you're transmitting as opposed to receiving, but the latter is BAAAAAAAAAD and against Islam and PUNISHABLE!!!! That in a nutshell, IS the attitude--and it's explained in some detail in the article I've offered, above.

The fact that "gay rights" have hit the news in the past decade or two has finally started to put pressure on KSA with regard to this issue--the "same gender sex" is starting to be called "gay sex" over there, and people are being asked to fish or cut bait. It's creating a tension that hithertofore hasn't really been perceived over there. Things were so much simpler for KSA when no one wanted to "Say it loud" about being "Gay and Proud." Now that being gay has been normalized throughout the world, there is a conflict between religious norms and the rest of the globe, and it's not so easy for "heterosexuals" or "bisexuals" to engage in same gender sex without being expected to wear a LABEL--and that's where the societal tension is fostered.

[Douglas Carpenter]

198. I was certainly treated with more deferance and respect when I worked in the Middle East than when

I worked in the U.S. mainland. And no doubt that homosexual relationships are far common in the Middle East than in the western world among their own people. They just don't accept the label as the article you posted points out. I would say that article gives a broad and accurate picture of the situation. It's an excellent article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/?single_page=true

[MADem]

202. Had you been "one of them," though, that deference and respect would have given way to

scolding, approbation, and punishment ... if you attached the "gay" label to yourself.

As I said, it's not behavior, it's an assertion of orientation.

Plus, the fact that you're not a practicing Muslim goes a long way towards your getting the "pass" that others won't be given.

The short version of the article is that anyone (who is male) can practice "same" sex so long as they are not in the "submissive" posture, and so long as they don't assert that they are "gay." AND that they haven't grabbed the attention of the Vice-Virtue cops via public conduct or too much jewelry or other personal decorations, clothing, hairstyles, etc.

If they're content with living a huge honking lie, you can get away with a lot--until someone decides they need to "get" something on you--and then your future, your liberty and even your life are in danger.

[Douglas Carpenter]

204. I think the article is a bit more nuanced than what you are describing

It is hard to quite call something "living a lie" when everybody knows and nobody knows. That is how many societies function all the time. But yes - in most totalitarian societies - EVERYBODY breaks laws all the time because they have to - then it becomes an issue only when the wrong person in power is pissed off - then what everybody did and everybody knew about suddenly everyone is shocked and it becomes a big deal. That is how totalitarian societies work on everything.

[MADem]

205. It's plausible deniability--as someone upthread averred, it's "Republican Gay"--but with the added

possibility of imprisonment, corporal punishment via the lash, or even execution if you're a powerless individual (like a Yemeni or Indonesian) or someone who has crossed a member of the House of Saud.

And that's what makes it so wrong.

That overlay of danger, of fear, of the potential for dire, life-ending consequences--no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have to live like that. It's soul - crushing. It's what the whole concept of equality--for women, for POC, for gays--is all about, to end that kind of thing.

It's not just about being treated with dignity and respect, though that is a fair piece of it all. The piece that goes to one's core is the that people do not have to live in FEAR. And in KSA, that's what holds the whole mess together. There's an element of fear, that one day, someone could wake up and hear a knock at the door, and be forced to defend themselves--particularly if the wrong picture was taken, if the wrong person talked, if the wrong accusations were made....

Sure, someone might be more likely to call you a name here in USA--but the fact of the matter is this: even if you weren't gay, someone in USA might be more likely to call you a name. People in USA tend to shoot their mouths off more, they're less "fake polite" particularly in casual situations. And they're often nastier after a few drinks--and you're not going to see as much of that happening in KSA.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

194. " And I do not buy that all this anti-Muslim hate..."

"We" do not hate Muslims, Jews, or Christians nor any other religionists. I consider myself one. "We" do hate religionists who make life unpleasant or worse for gay folks. I notice a couple of posters have through omission or commission made that clam that "we" hate all religionists.

[Douglas Carpenter]

195. I agree

[valerief]

109. Alert! Alert! We've got a "tone" post!

[NCTraveler]

110. It was the polite way of saying something else. lol. nt.

[valerief]

111. You must be a "very serious person."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument

[riderinthestorm]

116. I wrote that up thread. The OP stipulates being GLTB is no biggie. It's all cool

Everybody does it. Its accepted as their culture.

And then goes on to acknowledge there's vicious (and deadly) prosecution of GLTBs.

It can't be both.

[Douglas Carpenter]

122. I didn't say that and you know I didn't say that. I am writing about my personal experience

which carried contradiction-- but if you ask any gay person who spent time in the Middle East - they would tell you much the same thing. Perhaps I should just make up lies that fit into someone's political agenda- maybe that would not cause such cognitive dissonance

[riderinthestorm]

123. Your OP is a "contradiction" of pretty much every other post you've made in the thread

I truly want to understand.

But even you've acknowledged there's "contradiction" that you don't seem to be able to understand.

I've said up thread I'm not denigrating your personal experience but trying to understand it within the context of a ME that viciously prosecutes, and executes, homosexuals.

Your experience appears extremely "lucky" as others with similar experience living in the ME have pointed out. I interpret their remarks to mean your experience was atypical whereby you tell me it was extremely typical.

None of that is about a "political agenda".

Its about the disconnect.

I'm done here. I'm certainly not trying to argue about your own personal experience. I was trying to understand and will let you continue to explain as you can with others.

Thanks for the conversation.

[Douglas Carpenter]

124. well I knew lots and lots of very openly gay western people who worked in the middle east

Last edited Wed Oct 8, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

as well as a number of openly gay Filipinos. They were as open about it as any gay person in the Castro District of San Francisco is open about it. I being the quiet sort - was subtle - but everyone I worked with including a large number of Saudi Arabian coworkers certainly knew I was gay. This was a non issue - My experience was the norm for foreign gay people working in the Middle East

As far as their own culture is concern - private homosexual acts and relationships are ubiquitous and benignly accepted throughout the Middle East - EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS - However personally self-identifying as gay among Muslim people is VERY rare - The system basically allows people to have whatever relationships they want provided they get married and have children or they are young and are looking forward to getting married and having children. It is not the model that the world should follow. It is just how it is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. What would happen if a Saudi man or woman identified as gay...

What would happen if a Saudi man or woman identified as gay and started agitating for glbtq rights?

[Douglas Carpenter]

79. I have to admit that I can't really imagine that happening.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. Isn't that the acid test, bro?

[Douglas Carpenter]

92. it is not a liberal democracy - that's for sure. Of course I could not have imagined anyone

self identifying as gay and campaigning for gay rights in my little town in Pennsylvania back in the 1960's.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. But you could now.

I went to community college in FL in the mid 70s and there were already gay-straight alliances.

[Douglas Carpenter]

95. well that's true. Both societies advanced a lot since the 1960's - considering where they were at in

1966 and where we were at in 1966- which society has advanced the most?

[Bluenorthwest]

164. But people did so identify and advocate, not just in the 60's but in previous decades....

All over the US and in Europe. In your State, in April of 1965 150 people took part in a sit in at Dewey's Restaurant in Philly to protest discriminatory treatment by the management of people he thought seemed gay. 4 activists, all from PA, were arrested and convicted of disorderly conduct. Demonstrations outside Dewey's continued the following week, leafleting and pickets. In the end, the management dropped their bigoted ways.
1965. Just up the road from your little town, in your very own State. The 1960's were chock full of LGBT activism. By the end of the decade there was a full on 'gay liberation movement' and many, many straight Americans aware and supportive of that movement. Without all of that, we'd not be here today, we'd be discussing the Lash in Alabama and jail cells in Dallas.

[MADem]

84. Off to the car park, and off with their head!

That's assuming they aren't Very Close To The Throne, and that they don't recant immediately.

[mainer]

80. UAE is very different from Saudi Arabia, though.

I've been to Dubai, where I saw local women in mini-skirts. It may be a generational thing; there was one girl in a skimpy dress walking with her mother, who was covered head to toe. And even though alcohol is supposed to be forbidden, walk into any hotel bar and you'll see Arab men in traditional robes drinking -- a lot. Emirates Airlines serves endless booze on its flights. In UAE, women can be found in almost all professions. In fact there was an article in the Dubai newspaper about how businesses prefer to hire women, because the men are spoiled and don't put in nearly the same effort.

I've never been to Saudi Arabia. Isn't it a lot stricter?

[Douglas Carpenter]

86. oh yeah - Culturally they come from the same sort of tribal heritage

but Saudi Arabia embraced the idea that they are the guardians of the two holy mosques. The UAE embraced the idea that they are the gateway from the outside world to the Middle East - like the Middle Eastern Hong Kong.

[CJCRANE]

88. My impression is that

in that culture what people get up to behind closed doors is their own business.

They also do not define homosexuality in the same way that we do.

If you think about the example of a Catholic country like Fance where divorce is frowned upon but adultery is accepted, you can see how religion as it is lived is different to what one would expect.

[closeupready]

90. I also don't buy the rationale, "they have to do gay sex because of segregation

of the sexes" as a means of explaining why Saudi males (or males in ANY sex-segregated society) engage in homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior exists OUTSIDE sex-segregated societies.

People engage in homosexual behavior not because a vacuum is forcing them at gunpoint to do something they otherwise wouldn't do, but, duh, because they want to.

[Douglas Carpenter]

91. you're probably right about that. In the Philippines where there is a fair amount of mixing between

the sexes - there is also a lot of homosexuality among people who would not by any means consider themselves or be considered in their society to be gay or bisexual.

[Bluenorthwest]

99. They are closeted. Some call it being on the DL, the down low. Denial is the opposite of acceptance.

It is all about a double life and hotly denied affections. And I do not agree that society there integrates homosexual sex into some accepted image of the heterosexual. That's just bullshit. Their denial is not the same as some liberal minded, free love acceptance of bisexual behavior.
All you are saying is that there are lots of closeted people who daily deny their affections for others in order to comply with the social order. If you have a lot of gay sex, you are gay no matter what you consider yourself. If you openly have gay sex, society will count you as gay, in Metro Manila or Milan or Miami.

[Douglas Carpenter]

149. you do understand that in many non-western societies the vast majority of males have had numerous

homosexual relations? Does that mean the vast majority of non-western males are homosexual or bisexual? Or could it be as Margaret Mead was once quoted as saying, "Western style exclusive male heterosexuality is an aberration of nature."?

[Bluenorthwest]

161. Then they are all bisexual hypocrites, punishing others for the very thing they do, according to you

the vast majority of them are highly same sex active yet their laws allow for horrific punishments for same sex activity and they do nothing to oppose that wrong. Lots of men everywhere do all sorts of things they lie about. Lying about it does not make it vanish. Coming up with some rationalization as to why when you have gay sex it is not gay, while that other person having gay sex it is gay.
A bunch of people who are so lacking in self awareness that they condemn others for doing what they also do. That's all that it is. Same as the Baptist preacher who is 'anti gay' but has secret gay relationships. Same as the Catholics who do the same. Same as the Mormons. It is not unusual, nor regional, it is common as dirt for humans to allow themselves all things while attacking others for doing the same.
You quote Mead. But the nations you are defending claim that all men are exclusively heterosexual, and punish those who are not. If 'non western' men are not exclusively heterosexual, why do they insist that they are? Do they hate themselves? It is a pathology? If there is some great liberal sexuality flowing through that culture, why is that not reflected anywhere in the laws, the literature, the religion of those cultures? I'm not the one claiming anyone is exclusively anything. The Saudis and other governments that punish gay people and gay relations are making that claim, with lash and jail cells to drive that point home.
If the vast majority has numerous same sex relations, they are either gay or bisexual. But they claim, in spite of Margaret, that they are macho heterosexual to the core. They are hypocrites when they oppose others for doing what they do.

[Douglas Carpenter]

163. Not just Islamic countries - you will find around th world many places where most young men have

many homosexual experiences. Are most people bi-sexual? Or is this something actually innate to the human condition that the western world has largely suppressed? Is it possible that he western model is the be all and end all and there is no other possible way of thinking?

[nomorenomore08]

142. Interestingly, in the global survey they did last year, people in the Philippines expressed higher

acceptance of homosexuality than Americans did - it was around 70% versus 60% IIRC.

Obviously there are degrees of "acceptance," and other nuances, involved. But I found that rather striking.

[badtoworse]

96. Your mileage may vary.

[eissa]

101. I'm glad you were treated well, BUT

it's only because you're a westerner, and therefore expected to be "immoral and deviant." You would not have received any such tolerance if you were of Middle Eastern origin.

A dear friend of mine, born and raised in the US, had the opportunity to go to Iraq as part of a UN project to help with infrastructure development. She was absolutely thrilled to return to the land of her parents and ancestors. She didn't last six months. While other western women were treated with the utmost respect, she was constantly questioned about her upbringing. How could her father allow a young woman to travel on her own like that? Details of her life -- that she lived independently, had a boyfriend, etc., were all met with silence and raised eyebrows. It was a given that the other American women were whores, but the standard was different for her. She absolutely hated her time there and it changed her perspective of the region completely. Her once romanticized vision of the homeland was totally shattered.

[Cleita]

114. I find this true in countries with majority religions that oppress women.

In my case it was in predominantly Catholic countries. Single American women and other western women are considered whores and given a pass that a local woman would not get.

[whathehell]

131. False Equivalence Fail.

Give me a break -- There is NO comparison between the way ME Muslim countries

treat women and the way European countries do -- Catholic or not.

Saudi Arabia BEHEADS women for "crimes" like Adultery, and, btw, both Italy and

France are Catholic countries, in at least name, and birth control, mistresses,

and abortion are open and quite legal.

[Cleita]

133. You assumed I was talking about European countries.

I was also referring to experiences I had more than fifty years ago, so things may have changed. However, calling women of more gender equal nations whores by those who suppress them is quite valid no matter what century you are referring to.

[whathehell]

134. Yes, and I didn't know you were describing events of "more than 50 years ago"

I think you might have mentioned that little fact.

Half a century will make a difference, and, btw, I've never seen a bit of

difference between the "oppression" of women, i.e. slut-shaming as a 'whore"

between protestants, catholics or jews in this country or any other.

Half a century ago American women were considered "easy" by virtually

every foreign country, regardless of majority religion, mainly because of

Hollywood movies.

[MADem]

203. And the poor Swedish young ladies--they got the worst of it!!!

They made those "easy" American lasses look like nuns!!!!

[JCMach1]

112. Extremely lucky if you were doing this openly... I lived for the last 12 years in the UAE and yes

there is a vibrant gay culture there... however, it is underground and heavily closeted. You can be as gay you want around friends and compatriots, but you will be nailed in a number of unpleasant ways if you are truly out and out in a very public way as you would be in the US, or the West.

[Douglas Carpenter]

119. I was out in the sense that everybody that knew me and socialized with me knew I was gay

that was true of my time in Al Ain in the UAE as well

[Douglas Carpenter]

151. I was in Al Ain Abu Dhabi working at Tawam Hospital from August 1989 to November 1991

All the gay western and Filipino people I knew including myself where absolutely out of the closet about it. The ONLY hassles I received was from other westerners. Same thing for all my time in Saudi - the only hassles around the gay issue I EVER received was from westerners and I was completely openly gay and so were almost all gay westerners and gay Filipinos I knew.

[JCMach1]

182. All well and good, but I have watched the CID arrest numbers of people at establishments that cater

, or became gay hotspots...

Just saying...

I also had student's removed from my university and placed under 'psychiatric' care for being gay.

[riderinthestorm]

184. But Doug has never seen that so...

...his experience is an anecdote.

The hard core stats on prosecution and execution of the LGBT community in the ME don't compute with his anecdote.

[Douglas Carpenter]

186. and doesn't compute with the experience of the vast majority of Gay foreign people living and

working there either. Although crackdown like things being described above are certainly plausible. The law is - well there is no real rule of law - things are very arbitrary. I can only report what I saw and experienced over my twenty-five years of living and working there.

[MADem]

206. Ah, The Reagan Years...hardly the "Age of Enlightenment" when it came to gay issues.

Remember Reagan's finger-wag and "You brought it on yourself" to people dying of AIDS?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

115. Do you think you would have found things as easy if you'd been a native? N.T.

[Douglas Carpenter]

117. if I had gotten married and had kids - then I could do pretty much what I wanted without a label

I'm not saying this is the model to follow. It is how it is.

[Cleita]

121. It's the Greco-Roman way that dates back to biblical times in the ME.

If a man married a woman and had children, he had fulfilled his duty and was free to take lovers of either sex without censure after that.

[Bluenorthwest]

130. Do as you are told and we won't turn you in.

The fact remains that Saudi Arabia is one of 10 countries with laws allowing the execution of gay people. Any and all sexual activity outside of marriage is a crime. These laws are enforced. They are applied to living, breathing humans who are equal to straight people and to western people. Any attempt to minimize their plight is in my opinion a poor choice to make.

"A Saudi Arabian man has been sentenced to three years in jail and 450 lashes after he was caught using Twitter to arrange dates with other men. According to a report in the daily Arabic newspaper Al-Watan, the man was arrested following an entrapment ploy by the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV). Posing as a potential suitor online, members of the CPVPV arranged to meet the now convicted man for a date."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gay-saudi-arabian-man-sentenced-to-three-years-and-450-lashes-for-meeting-men-via-twitter-9628204.html

The State Department advises LGBT travelers that consensual intercourse between same-sex individuals is “criminalized in Saudi Arabia” and that “potential penalties include fines, jail time or death. I advise all travelers to pay attention to that no matter what you read on the internet.
Knowledge = Life
Silence = Death

[nomorenomore08]

143. 450 lashes? That is beyond barbaric.

[Bluenorthwest]

158. Barbaric indeed, and current news. The OP's claims seem lacking in context when he claims:

"I just knew lots and lots of openly gay western and Filipino people who worked in the Middle East and they were as openly gay as anyone living in San Francisco."

It's like San Francisco, he says. Not just liberal, but it is like the most gay friendly metropolis in the United States. 450 Lashes. As openly as anyone living in San Francisco. I feel there is a certain nuance and honesty missing....

[nomorenomore08]

170. If nothing else, he doesn't seem to have put his own (very fortunate) experiences in enough context.

[Douglas Carpenter]

174. my experience was the experience of the vast overwhelming majority of western gay people

who worked in Saudi and the UAE,

[Douglas Carpenter]

188. I'm not saying it is gay friendly - I'm reporting the fact that I knew lots and lots of "screaming

queens" who lived and worked in the Saudi Arabia and did just fine. And yes they were as openly gay as anyone living in Greenwich Village or the Castro. That is reality. Of course these were foreigners - westerners and Filipinos - not locals. Saudi is not the model to follow. It is a theocratic and corrupt totalitarian police state. It is also not the cartoon caricature many people think it is.

For me, I'm done with the place. It was a lot of fun most of the time - but it really got stale and old after awhile. I'm glad I'm not there anymore. I should have ended earlier. I'm quite happy here on a this tropical paradise of Saipan. But, you really should think of working there. I bet you would enjoy yourself a lot.

[Brigid]

135. I am a woman.

For obvious reasons, you could not pay me enough to set foot in SA.

[whathehell]

139. Me either...

The mere fact that they BEHEAD women (not men) for adultery makes me sick.

to my stomach.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. What would happen if a gay person took the original post literally..

What would happen if a gay person took the original post literally and conducted themselves in Saudi Arabia as if they were here?

[nomorenomore08]

144. I would hope most people of any orientation are smarter than that. Regardless, I see your point. n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

145. anywhere anyone moves - it is best to assess the situation for one's self before they do anything

I just knew lots and lots of openly gay western and Filipino people who worked in the Middle East and they were as openly gay as anyone living in San Francisco. But, still I would advice caution until a person has their feet firmly planted on the ground and they know their local situation and what is accepted and what is not.

[closeupready]

165. Reading about Shrien Dewani, it's interesting in light of this thread

to read about someone who is accused of hiring an assassin to murder his wife right after their honeymoon, considering that he is allegedly well-known in London's gay scene, has hired male prostitutes, and has used gay dating smart phone apps.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2783793/British-parliamentary-aide-gay-sex-Shrien-Dewani-London-nightclub-appear-prosecution-witness-murder-trial.html

Apparently, he concedes that he is bisexual, but if what I've read about him is true, I don't have much doubt that he is likely gay but was pressured by his family to marry a woman and produce heirs.

I'm not sure if you're following his trial, but from outward appearances, how is he different than the locals (and others) you knew from your time abroad? Obviously, the murder angle is unique to Dewani's set of circumstances; I'm referring instead to the tawdry part of his life.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

166. my next

my next vacation is going to be in Riyadh. Thanks Doug for all the info.

[Douglas Carpenter]

172. Riyadh is the most boring, soulless city I have ever visited in my life

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I would not recommend it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

200. The challenge is gays in many M E nations have no protection by law or custom.

There are many places in our nation that are not particularly hospitable to gays but they can appeal to the authorities for protection and if the authorities fail to act the glare from a largely empathetic media will force them to.

[Douglas Carpenter]

201. I agree - there is no real rule of law - everything is very arbitrary