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Sancho

(9,067 posts)
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 07:56 AM Oct 2014

An observation on ER's in Florida...and the PROFIT in health care...

I see a little research about this, but the ebola scare is what brought it up for me.

Here in Florida, we do not have ACA or medicaid expansion (like Texas and many red states). Hospitals have often been purchased by for profit companies even though they often retain the original name of a charitable or non-profit organization. We have for-profit hospitals begging for donations under the old name like "children's" or "community" or something that sounds nice. People donate without even realizing that the hospital is paying owners and investors now. There are bill-boards advertising ER's with digital clocks showing "wait time". It's really a commercial enterprise.

When we were raising adopted and foster kids who were covered by medicaid we had one child with a chronic illness. If we went to an ER, there would be tests, referrals, and sometimes admission. Even medicaid paid for specialists and expensive drugs. Once the child was an adult and not covered, all of a sudden a visit to the ER got pain meds and out the door. In fact, the child developed a drug habit that we blamed on ER visits and quick pain prescriptions instead of treatment after the medicaid ran out.

My wife and I are educators and have insurance with union negotiated benefits (thank goodness). Treatment for chronic illness is covered and copays are small or zero. On the few occasions we went to an ER for something that might be scary, we have insurance and they will run tests, call in a specialist, contact the family doctor, and produce meds from the hospital pharmacy. Admission overnight for observation is no problem. We have noticed lately there are lots of bills from consulting doctors in the ER who are out-of-network and that becomes an issue, but we've learned to ask. We are also astounded at the EOB where the insurance pays $30,000 or something for a single visit, but we don't have any control or choice. We just pay the copay (usually a few hundred). We actually heard EMT's one time discussing which ER to go to based on perceived insurance, and I told them the hospital (and they complied). Maybe the ambulance crew gets kickbacks or something?

Students we teach (from kindergarten to college) are often treated similarly. The ones with insurance get tests, referrals, and often admission just in case. We see the difference when college students with loans and minimal insurance are compared to student athletics covered by prime time university group policies. We see the same thing with free-lunch, low income students vs. middle-classers whose parents have family policies. Treatment depends on insurance, not good medical practice.

If you are in a state with minimal medicaid and you are going to a for profit hospital without insurance, unless you are almost dead you'll be given a prescription and referral and tossed out. If you have insurance, including medicaid, you'll be treated with every test and drug. In fact, they will likely milk the insurance for whatever they can get away with...so you may have to be assertive to stop them. (That's how Rick Scott got rich over-billing medicare for fake treatments.).

The FOR PROFIT system doesn't work, because the incentive is to ignore the uninsured (even if they have ebola) and overcharge the insured who really don't have a chance to shop around or argue with the doctor. The good thing about ACA is they are trying to collect data and hold the hospitals to reasonable costs. Maybe in the long run that will work, but it will be a fight against a motivated and unethical corporate industry.

We need a public, single-payer system or else health care needs universal non-profit insurance (like they have in some places in Europe). Otherwise, there will continue to be abuse.

That's my 2 cents...

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DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
1. good point
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:12 AM
Oct 2014

If you are in a state with minimal medicaid and you are going to a for profit hospital without insurance, unless you are almost dead you'll be given a prescription and referral and tossed out. If you have insurance, including medicaid, you'll be treated with every test and drug. In fact, they will likely milk the insurance for whatever they can get away with...so you may have to be assertive to stop them. (That's how Rick Scott got rich over-billing medicare for fake treatments.).


Hmm, does the fact that the Ebola paitentient in Tx got kicked out ring a bell?

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
4. that's what made me think of it...I suspect the ebola was never diagnosed.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:22 AM
Oct 2014

no insurance, no serious examination or treatment.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
5. Kick. Rec.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:31 AM
Oct 2014

People who think receiving good medical care should depend on personal financial management are 100% idiots.

Sigh.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
6. I have a diagnostic procedure coming up soon, and am anticipating
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 08:48 AM
Oct 2014

Last edited Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)

getting 6-8 bills over the course of the next year, some from people I will never actually meet. I have employer insurance which used to be good but now sucks, since the employers decided to save money this year by buying a cheap plan. My annual max used to be $500, now it's $8350, on a take-home pay of around $35K. If by some chance I have a 2-night hospital stay that begins on 12/31, I will be out half a year's pay for two days of "care". I still have years to go before I am eligible for Medicare.

If this test I'm having comes out positive, I am going to refuse treatment and get some pain meds and let nature take its course. I am not going to let these bloodsuckers take the money we've saved over 30 years of work.

Obama and the rest of the 2009-2010 Dems really sold us out on this "plan". Not only is it a disaster in and of itself (guaranteeing Big Insurance 500 billion in profit per year, leaving millions uncovered, making the patient responsible for "shopping around", tracking down payments, etc.), but it has pushed meaningful reform (SP) back indefinitely. It's a disgrace, and the president and the rest of the ACA fans should be ashamed that we have something that Newt Gingrinch originally concocted.

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
7. Yep...the ACA is a poor compromise at best and a sell-out at worst.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:04 AM
Oct 2014

It all depends on the particular plan your employer provides. There will always be abuse unless there is a public option, non-profit care, and some kind of oversight. That seems obvious to me.

I was really hopeful when the Clinton's proposed universal health care, but there was no way it would pass.

My wife will retire in a few years and be under medicare, but I'm planning to keep working (forever?) or at least until I'm in my 70's. That's mainly so I can keep us under a high-option health care plan!! Our annual max has increased to $5000 and we have to be careful to go to doctors who are on the plan.

Teachers used to retire after 30 years or at 62. Now I'm working with people who are 70, 74, and even 79. No one can afford to give up health insurance. In Florida they even offer incentives and even buyouts to get state employees to retire, because people won't quit.



hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
8. Unfortunately, sometimes it depends on the doctor's perception of race and/or socioeconomic status
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:12 AM
Oct 2014

as well. People of color and poor people are perceived by too many as whiners trying to get attention. To a lesser extent, the same applies to women as opposed to men.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
9. It's not the main point of your post, but I think you bring up the issue of the drop-in doctor,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:16 AM
Oct 2014

in or out of network. When I was in the ER a year ago after an automobile accident, I think five or six separate doctors dropped by, introduced themselves and took a history. Thanks to no-fault insurance, I never saw a bill, but now I am wondering how many of them were drop-ins cruising for a billing opportunity. Certainly, none of them did a proper exam. It was only when I was to be discharged that it was discovered that I had muscle damage that made it impossible to walk!

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
10. I think the drop-in doctor was something new to us also.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:39 AM
Oct 2014

The last time we were at a hospital, there were visits from a neurologist, dietician, ENT, etc. Most were listed as a "consult". A few were out of network and we got separate bills from them! Of course, we didn't know why they were there.

Our primary care doctor (a nice family guy that we've been to for years) has warned us now. If we have a choice, we can go to a hospital where he has privileges and then he can control the trolls. When we're at a hospital where he can't practice, we're at the mercy of whatever attending or doctor du jour happens to show up!

Even the in network doctors had some amazing charges on the bill that the insurance paid, and some were simply reading the results of tests or a five minute visit to rule out things that were obviously silly. Some of them got hundreds for 2 minutes. Of course we don't know if they are on salary or contract or paid by service.

BTW, we have a friend who was in a car wreck (not her fault, but we have no-fault here too) and she developed major shoulder issues from the seat belt after a few weeks. It eventually led to surgery. She is in a lawsuit with the insurance companies over paying for an obvious wreck related injury, but they are fighting it. The ER dismissed her also without a diagnosis.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
13. Oh, don't get me started on trying to decide if something is covered by no-fault or my my health
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 10:03 AM
Oct 2014

insurance. I had a routine appointment with my GP, so I figured that I could just change that to the 1 week followup after the accident. The appointment clerk didn't catch what I meant and didn't make any notes. The billing clerk had conniptions when I showed up because you can't do that - you have to cancel the appointment covered by health insurance and make a new appointment covered by the auto insurance.

The end result - I started having vertigo problems a few months later and never mentioned them to my GP because I didn't know if they were from the concussion from the accident or from something else. They weren't a problem until I almost did a face plant into the edge of the tub one day.

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
11. "For profit" is indeed the problem. Our local hospital is a tax-supported, 'district' hospital.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:45 AM
Oct 2014

My county is poor, and until the ACA and 'expanded Medicaid', most people here were un- or under-insured. Nonetheless, if you went to the E.R., you weren't 'astro-turfed', but examined, properly diagnosed, treated and, if necessary, admitted. Fortunately, between higher reimbursements for being a USDA-defined 'critical access hospital' and funds from the annual tax levy, the hospital was able to break even.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
12. Years ago before Medicaid existed a friend of mine was hurt playing baseball. His family had no
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 10:00 AM
Oct 2014

insurance. The emergency room at the for profit hospital turned him away and they had to go to a hospital much further away. For profit would still do that if they could get away with it.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
14. Being someone with a chronic illness I can say that our system totally sucks, even with insurance.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 10:08 AM
Oct 2014

Our new company insurance in the first year was relatively cheap and they sold policies like hot cakes, including to the state of Texas. They locked up market share. The second year renewal it went up 40%! 40%!!!
Started getting notices that this med had to be obtained by mail order pharmacy, their own I suspect. Soon, all of my meds had to come from there. Problem was, I travel a lot and often don't know the next town until the day before and gone for weeks at a time. Then, picking up the same prescription I have been on for years that they cannot do by mail order, they tell me insurance won't cover it because the doctor didn't "pre-authorize" it! They wanted $306 for a medication I must have. Now it must be pre-authorized each time. I haven't seen a story on this, but there should be.

So sick of this, please fight for single payer!

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
15. This is another issue that we've had lots of problems with...mail order pharmacy!
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 11:04 AM
Oct 2014

They have been a disaster for us. The insurance company that Florida used a few years ago required mail order. They fouled up the prescription, my doctor was livid because he had to fax orders several times. I could get the same drug from any chain (like CVS, Walgreens, or Costco) and they all had my prescriptions in the computer when I was traveling. It was no problem until we started dealing with the mail order. I was on the phone every month with the mail order people and it was ridiculous.

After two years of complaints and threatened lawsuits, etc., my state insurance now has the option of using mail order, but we don't touch it.

In our case, there's some evidence that our horrible Governor's "blind trust" makes a big profit on drugs, pharmacy, medical testing, etc. that are required by state insurance. That scandal has been floating around and the reporters are trying to catch the sneaky bastard.

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