Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 03:38 PM Oct 2014

New York Court to Decide if Chimps Are People Too

A US court has never been asked to consider the question "Who is a person?" in the same way that a New York appeals court will have to answer it in a case that started today.

This case is the first of its kind and raises the issue of whether high-order animals — non-human primates, dolphins, elephants, and orcas — are people and entitled to certain rights as people.

Tommy the chimpanzee, 26, is at the center of the case. He is owned by a human and spends his days watching television in upstate New York, where disagreements have arisen about his living conditions
. https://news.vice.com/article/new-york-court-to-decide-if-chimps-are-people-too?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

I know at first look this may tempt people to make light of the issue, but consider this, further down the article:

The Nonhuman Rights Project's lawsuits are rooted in genetic, cognitive, physiological, evolutionary, and taxonomic evidence that the plaintiffs are autonomous, self-aware, self-determining, and able to choose how to live their lives, as provided by some of the world's greatest working primatologists," the organization said in a statement.

Dr. Alasdair Cochrane, an animal rights expert at the University of Sheffield, UK, told the London Evening Standard that he sees the divide that separates human rights and animal rights shrinking.

"As the advanced powers of other animals, such as chimpanzees, becomes better understood, it is little surprise that the legal wall that divides humans from other animals is being chipped away. It is my view that it is just a matter of time until it crumbles," he said.
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
New York Court to Decide if Chimps Are People Too (Original Post) dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 OP
I vote they are people. bravenak Oct 2014 #1
Oh, you "feel" that way, do you? Yes, that's how to define species, by "feelings." WinkyDink Oct 2014 #16
Yes. I'm a feeler. One day i decided that they were people, and that will be the end of it! bravenak Oct 2014 #18
Am I wrong in saying that what you really want is for them to be protected? Marrah_G Oct 2014 #21
No, your right. bravenak Oct 2014 #22
I agree Marrah_G Oct 2014 #24
I can come up with a term or two. bravenak Oct 2014 #25
It's really messed up Marrah_G Oct 2014 #26
This same lawyer said he'll move onto dolphins next... Oktober Oct 2014 #37
I disagree meow2u3 Oct 2014 #2
Humans behave according to their instincts too. hunter Oct 2014 #8
Can't help but agree with you. dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 #9
well said Beringia Oct 2014 #13
They should be protected. rogerashton Oct 2014 #3
Does Tommy change the channel on the TV? Kalidurga Oct 2014 #4
I'm all for treating animals decently, but chimps equal to persons? I don't think so. I'm sorry. AverageJoe90 Oct 2014 #5
I'm still cheering for team humanity, but I'm not sure we'll make it to the Galactic Superbowl. hunter Oct 2014 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Oct 2014 #17
LOL. "Chimps, Inc.", anyone? xD AverageJoe90 Oct 2014 #19
Well, Joe..the SAME Supreme Court ruled corporations are persons dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 #29
When they turn 16 can they drive, vote at 18, buy a gun at 21? NightWatcher Oct 2014 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Oct 2014 #7
Is This A George W. Bush Thing ??? WillyT Oct 2014 #10
Good question. Is Chimpy McFlightsuit human? Louisiana1976 Oct 2014 #28
This is the future, good treatment of all animals Beringia Oct 2014 #12
but when certain UglyGreed Oct 2014 #14
"Yes" would be a very, very bad decision. One can legislate not to harm chimpanzees proper. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #15
They are not people, they are chimps Marrah_G Oct 2014 #20
Chimps are not people. aikoaiko Oct 2014 #23
If being a person means you have to be "autonomous, self-aware, self-determining, and able to choose valerief Oct 2014 #27
oops..I commented much the same, up above, dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 #30
In their world, I wonder if embryos outrank fetuses and if zygotes outrank embryos. valerief Oct 2014 #35
all outranked by the "gleam in the father's eye". dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 #36
Badda bing! valerief Oct 2014 #38
In other news, much of DU didn't read what this is actually about, responded in kind. flvegan Oct 2014 #31
Ain't that always the way??? dixiegrrrrl Oct 2014 #34
My cat has already made yuiyoshida Oct 2014 #32
So if it's decided the owner will have to give him up ? it sounds like that scarystuffyo Oct 2014 #33

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
21. Am I wrong in saying that what you really want is for them to be protected?
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 05:34 PM
Oct 2014

So they are not mistreated? If they were people they would be allowed to go anywhere, which would be a huge mistake.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
22. No, your right.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 05:38 PM
Oct 2014

I just remember those disgusting people who had one of our primate cousins working in a brothel. I want those people, people who do things like that, prosecuted for rape and torture and kidnapping. I don't want them running around in the city ripping peoples faces off, though.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
25. I can come up with a term or two.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 08:15 PM
Oct 2014

But they would need censoring. I never knew that people did things like that. But I should have guessed.

 

Oktober

(1,488 posts)
37. This same lawyer said he'll move onto dolphins next...
Fri Oct 10, 2014, 10:26 PM
Oct 2014

If they have the same rights as a human will we bring up an orca whale that eats one in the wild on charges for murder?

Idiotic.. On so many levels...

meow2u3

(24,759 posts)
2. I disagree
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 03:53 PM
Oct 2014

Chimps are intelligent primates, but do not have the reasoning capacity of a human. Chimps still behave according to their instincts; just ask the lady in Connecticut who was mauled by her chimp.

hunter

(38,302 posts)
8. Humans behave according to their instincts too.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:38 PM
Oct 2014

The big difference between us and chimps is we tell very intricate stories about what we do. When we created oral history, stories passed down from generation to generation, maybe 50-100,000 years ago, human civilization began to evolve rapidly. And then, when we created writing, that's when the modern technological revolutions began. There's simply too much human history and technology now to hold it all inside the heads of our bards.

I don't know why we feel "alone" and wonder about intelligent life in outer space when we share this planet with a large variety of very intelligent beings similar to ourselves. A shocking majority haven't recognized these intelligent beings yet.

I think it's time we did.

Some animals are not so different than we were not long ago by nature's long measure of time, and it's not so clear yet that the developmental pathway we followed will assure a positive outcome. I suspect the human race will be remembered only as a freakish layer of trash in the geologic record.

For now we ought to be protecting the cultures of our intellectual kin on this planet, the great apes, the cetaceans, the elephants, many of the birds, etc., in much more sophisticated ways than we "humanely" treat other animals of lesser intellectual and cultural complexity.

A chimpanzee deserves to live as a chimpanzee, with many of the same rights of self-determination as we demand for our own selves. And an orca deserves to live as an orca, and an elephant as an elephant.





dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
9. Can't help but agree with you.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:40 PM
Oct 2014

The ego driven feeling of superiority to anything but our own has really done a lot of harm.

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
3. They should be protected.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 03:59 PM
Oct 2014

That's not the same thing as "being a person" or having rights. A legal person has the legal ability to own property and enter into contracts. Neither that, nor freedom of speech, would seem to have any application to chimps and orcas. But these complex, incompletely understood creatures should be protected from arbitrary human use.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
4. Does Tommy change the channel on the TV?
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:14 PM
Oct 2014

Not that it would make him human, but it does make him smarter than people who complain about what is on one of the 299 channels they are not watching.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
5. I'm all for treating animals decently, but chimps equal to persons? I don't think so. I'm sorry.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:30 PM
Oct 2014

Come on now. Is this even really serious? What has me worried is that many of the worst RWNJ agitprop mouthpieces will no doubt take this and try to run with it, as an excuse to attack marriage equality(and not just same-sex marriage, either!), amongst other things.





hunter

(38,302 posts)
11. I'm still cheering for team humanity, but I'm not sure we'll make it to the Galactic Superbowl.
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:47 PM
Oct 2014

Our quarterbacks suck and our coaches are leaving the best players on the benches.

Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #5)

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
6. When they turn 16 can they drive, vote at 18, buy a gun at 21?
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 04:36 PM
Oct 2014

Give them protections, but don't try to call them a human.

Response to dixiegrrrrl (Original post)

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
20. They are not people, they are chimps
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 05:31 PM
Oct 2014

If you make them people, then you are saying they are responsible for their actions by human standards. That does not mean they should not be protected, but you would be doing any animal a diservice by making them "people".

valerief

(53,235 posts)
27. If being a person means you have to be "autonomous, self-aware, self-determining, and able to choose
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 08:58 PM
Oct 2014

how to live your life," then how can corporations be persons?

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
30. oops..I commented much the same, up above,
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 10:40 PM
Oct 2014

before I saw your comment.
Excellent point, I agree.

( We don't even want to start in about the fetus's, do we?)

valerief

(53,235 posts)
35. In their world, I wonder if embryos outrank fetuses and if zygotes outrank embryos.
Fri Oct 10, 2014, 06:41 PM
Oct 2014

Something to ponder...

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
34. Ain't that always the way???
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 11:48 PM
Oct 2014

Changes in awareness usually starts with something like this case.
Over time, more people might be revising their ideas of what we and the "higher" mammals have in common.

 

scarystuffyo

(733 posts)
33. So if it's decided the owner will have to give him up ? it sounds like that
Thu Oct 9, 2014, 10:56 PM
Oct 2014

I would like to see the environment the owner is keeping this chimp in

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»New York Court to Decide ...