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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI *hate* it when someone uses false info and I have nothing to back up a rebuttal...
Greetings from behind the grief curtain everybody. Tonight, one of my dearest friends took me to dinner to a lovely little Italian place that's been there FOREVER and makes their own pasta, etc. The food..YUUUUUM.
Then Ferguson, MO came up.
Please note that while in the grief storm, very little as far as politics gets behind it. While my Dad was in the hospital, I remember something about Chris Christie and a bridge he shut down, and some sort of corruption behind it. I am pretty sure his political goose is cooked, so I am glad for it. Other than that, not much.
Keep in mind that I still read here each day. It has kept me "sort of" connected, because I am too broken to delve into this very much.
My friend told me that Trayvon Martin was a thug. <<<------- That happened WELL before my personal grief storm, so I was ready, willing and able to say that she needs to know that George Zimmerman is a fucking fruit loop and murderer and to keep the blue wall for the real cops, and not this guy. She tried to tell me that Trayvon Martin was casing people's houses and cars. I brought up the slow rolling behind him and she told me GZ "had a right to be there". At this point I retaliated that so did Trayvon and public is public. You don't get to say that TM was not allowed to be where he was. He was stalked and murdered. Period. She's a state's attorney and she was trying to split hairs between stalking and following.
Good luck with that, sweets.
Then Ferguson comes up, and she told me that the man who was gunned down had just done a "strong armed robbery" at a store just before and that the cop had his orbital bone broken. I had been reading here enough to call bullshit on the orbital bone, but I didn't bookmark it (And yes, I normally do). She kept repeating that the cop has to shoot as long as the threat is there.
I asked how the threat can be there if the guy had his hands in the air. She said he didn't and that he attacked the law enforcement officer.
I changed the subject because I had nothing.
I *hate* it when that happens. There are few things that I hate more.
Can anyone shed any light on this? I am seething right now.
Seeeeeething. Like shaking and trembling and shit.
So maybe I will emerge a bit from the grief storm...because I am engaged now.
Thanks for helping, and letting me vent.
edit: typos
CurtEastPoint
(18,641 posts)just put my hands up and say, "I'm sorry. We cannot discuss this." And then totally change the subject or walk away.
JI7
(89,247 posts)they are just a racist. at a certain point it's not about debating the issue anymore.
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)Every witness, ie people that actually saw it happen say the same thing. He had his hands up. The only ones disputing that are the murderer and some friend of his wife.
I know it's frustrating as I have had many of these encounters.
To far too many, black equals thug. Sad!
NV Whino
(20,886 posts)during the encounter. It is all "he said," "she said." Witnesses have stated and recanted. The police report is virtually nonexistent. The cop is incommunicado. There has been incorrect information and misdirection by people who weren't even there. There have been stories (broken eye socket) that are outright lies. There are three autopsy reports, none of which state anything conclusively to the general public, other than Martin is dead.
If your friend is so convinced that she knows precisely what happened, she had better be prepared to testify in court. I'm sure the Ferguson PD (and the still is missing cop) would greatly appreciate it. She'll be as credible as any other witness for the cop.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)legally, there is a difference between "stalking" and "following."
MADem
(135,425 posts)I wouldn't accept a dinner invitation or anything from a person who held those views.
No need to shake or seethe. Just cut that poison out of your life.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Regardless of prior actions, the cop was a good distance away when he fired the shots.
Assuming your friend is a rw'er they believe a cop is allowed by law to shoot anyone, for any reason, at any time. He was not shot while attacking the officer, he was not close to the officer, etc.
Saw an interesting pic that covered this well. It asked the question "How is it that the RW thinks climate change, with all the evidence we have, is fake but think a cop shooting a guy from 30 feet away is self defense?" (Or something similar, don't have exact wording/graphic handy).
It is typical of every right winger to ignore evidence and proof and make up things, so no surprise they don't see a cop shooting a black man as totally justified without any proof - it is what they -want- to believe, because all conservatives are pretty much idiots and racists.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)People believe what they want to believe, what they need to believe. We don't put a very high premium on truth in this country. We act like we do, but most people don't mean it. Talking points are absorbed from Fox News and from right wing radio, and the people who listen to that sort of messaging aren't going to entertain any alternate possibilities (like the truth, for example).
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)"We can discuss this forever, and neither of us has the full scoop, so let's just put it off until we know more. You know who really should have been shot? Those clowns at the Bundy ranch. I agree that the police have to stand up to.. and defend themselves from... dangerous characters who threaten them. That was a clear-cut threat. Those guys carrying those rifles and aiming them at the Federal officers should have been shot!"
See what she had to say about that.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)I have a fall gathering to attend tomorrow and she wants me to ride with her. (I am going to drive.)
It'll come up. Trust.
She is dating a married former cop (he was canned) and it was like she morphed right into him.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)of a beloved family member. It took what seemed to me to be an inordinate amount of time of grieving before I could really get back into "normal" thought patterns. I thought I "wasn't handling it well" because I was so ensnared in grief. I talked to friends and asked if they had ever been in this kind of situation. They said "it takes time." Not what I wanted to hear. I wanted a solution right then and there.
It was not a time for my "rational" brain to take over again and process political arguments, even those deeply embedded in my belief system as a progressive. But that grief period gradually lifted and I found myself in the acceptance period of grief. And back to my daily immersion in politics here at DU, politics in my state and local levels and daily perusal of newspapers and websites.
Now I can handle those memories without crushing grief. I see her grown kids at family gatherings and we retell our stories about her, but now in the warm light of laughter and love, her greatest legacy to us...
Take care, LaydeeBug....
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)and then I burst out in tears because i didn't have an outburst.
On edit, because my kitten walked over the keyboard and this posted before I was done writing. She's *adorable* though, so...I just wanted to add how grateful I am for your compassion and understanding. It really means a lot.
I am not going to the fall party today. I don't think I can handle crowds right now and I honestly have a headache.
I hope they forgive me for it. I am going to try and get a nap.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)It was unfair of me, even if he IS a jerk. But the anger was my inability to accept his sister's death. I didn't blame him; she died of liver cirrhosis (she was what is called a 'high functioning alcoholic" . But I was momentarily quite out of control with anger. It was all so unfair! I drove back from her service crying uncontrollably and had to pull over several times just to get myself together.
I tell you this so you will not think you just have to "snap out of it." It does, it will, get better for you. Remember what Joe Biden said to parents of the fallen service members on Memorial Day a couple of years ago: "I know you will find this hard to believe, but the day will come when the memory of your loved one will bring a smile to your lips before it brings a tear to your eyes."
yardwork
(61,599 posts)I know that this wasn't your question. I hope that you don't mind my making this observation. You are grieving a loss, and so your friend took you out to dinner. But instead of making the effort to talk about things that will help you feel better, instead of taking the opportunity to remind you of all that's good in the world, she spends the dinner talking to you about crime cases and arguing with you?
I'm sorry but that doesn't sound very loving or caring to me. It sounds self-centered, arrogant, and uncaring.
I hope that you have other friends, ones who sincerely care about helping you feel better.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)She is a hardcore law enforcement officer advocate. Sometimes that takes over.
She is also an attorney. She sees the very worst of the worst walk on technicalities every day. Sometimes, that bleeds onto other things is all.
I have her COMPLETELY anti-death penalty. Change happens slowly. She has a good heart, and she is my friend, even if she went off a bit about Ferguson. I was the one who was unarmed. There is a lot of dis-info, *and* mis-info. It sucks that we have to sift through all of that for understanding, but we do.
And we will.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)insightful comments today). This 'friend' comes off as a bit of a sociopathic opportunist. Ugh!
Good on you for calling the behavior out as it should be.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)I filter all information through probability. For example, the death of Michael Brown. I'm willing to believe that Michael Brown may have committed a robbery. I'm even willing to believe that he had an altercation, perhaps a fight while leaning into the police car. Those are possible, I'm not saying that's what happened, but I'm willing to accept it's possible. Possible as opposed to probable.
Stay with me friends. The story continues.
Then the gunshot rang out, and Michael Brown ran. A normal human response. Instinctive response. I'm absolutely willing to believe that. Because it makes sense, because it fits with normal human reactions. A high probability reaction to an event. Fight or flight, basic human instinctive response that is very strong, and very much ingrained into all of us as a survival mechanism.
Then the second gunshot. I'm willing to accept that Michael stopped and turned around. Again, flight response, overwhelmed by fear of harm. But the probability of someone first running, and then turning to attack is very low. It takes more than a handful of seconds to switch from flight to fight in anyone but highly trained and disciplined individuals. Once the flight starts, it's very hard to turn it to fight. Again, probability says fifty fifty that he would stop, or keep running. Given the absence of suitable cover, a place to hide, then stopping and surrendering is a highly probable reaction. The fact that several witnesses saw Michael raise his hands in surrender cements this in my mind as the most probable explanation of the actual shooting. Not the events leading up to it. But the point where Darren Wilson fired and killed Michael Brown.
It is most improbable that Michael or anyone would give up the advantage they had, physical contact with the other person in the altercation, run and open up the distance, and then turn at the very next threat to themselves a handful of seconds later and move to attack. That is so improbable as to be laughable. Not impossible, but unless the individual was on some sort of mind altering drug, say PCP, there is virtually no chance of such an action happening. Because the PCP addled person would not have run, and then turned to attack. They would have beaten the cop half to death and not noticed their own bones shattering under the force of the blows until much later.
Probability says that it is fairly short of certain that Michael Brown turned and raised his hands in surrender. Beyond a reasonable doubt? Most probably.
I know the most recent shooting story in Ferguson has changed several times, and statements are being challenged. I will be honest, I don't believe the cop automatically. I never do. The story almost always has a whiff of the implausible about it. How much of that is due to erroneous relation of the story, and the story itself we will see. If I was in St. Louis, I would probably be out with the protesters.
Try it. You'll find you are able to spot lies very easily. You may not know the whole truth, but you can spot events that don't seem to add up in a manner of speaking.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)She is a little wrapped up with a righty right now. A married righty might I add. But I don't want to judge. He's going to leave her as soon as the kids grow up.