Toddler critical after falling into Jaguar exhibit -I would arrest the father and grandfather

[malaise]

http://www.fox16.com/story/d/story/report-child-dropped-into-big-cat-exhibit-at-littl/15256/esdpR4YiL0ua8D_sabDlpw
<snip>
A three-year-old boy is hospitalized in critical condition after falling into the jaguar exhibit at the Little Rock Zoo this morning.

It happened around 10:45 when a family member was holding the child on the railing, police said. The child fell about 15-16 feet according to a police report. He was reportedly injured both in the fall and by both jaguars.

More specific information from a Little Rock Police report says the boy suffered a depressed skull fracture, minor puncture wounds, and extensive scalp lacerations.

One witness reported that the yellow jaguar "Agave" had its mouth around the child's neck.
-----------------------
There are some really dumb parents

[get the red out]

1. It's one thing to child-proof zoos

But now parent-proofing seems to be needed as well. One would expect parents and grandparents to understand dangers far better than a child, but that often doesn't seem to be the case.

[malaise]

2. Some parents endanger their own children

in ways the wildest of animals would not contemplate

[egduj]

3. Yes, they should spend the rest of their lives in jail.

Wouldn't want to have these two running around the country throwing kids into jaguar pits across the nation. I hear that when you accidentally let your child fall into a jaguar pit once, you have the desire to do it over and over again.

[malaise]

4. Epic fail

They put the child in danger. That is not an accident

[brer cat]

5. +1 nt

[cali]

7. let's put all the parents who put their kids in danger in jail

Parents who let their kids wander off to fall into a swimming pool, for instance.

Aren't there enough people in jail for non-violent crimes? And yes, it was an accident. It was a stupid and preventable accident, but they didn't intend for the child to land in the jaguar pit.

[DetlefK]

12. Or people who dangle their kid over a pit of dangerous animals.

This is not about a lack of supervision. The child was hurt as a RESULT of their supervision.

[magical thyme]

13. and ignore the warning signs in the process.

The signs warn of the danger and ban putting anybody on the railings.

Agreed 100%.

[cali]

14. yes, it was stupid and avoidable. I don't think prosecuting them would serve

justice.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. I agree with you.

Ours is an insanely punitive society.

I would imagine the father & grandfather are already devastated by seen the consequences of what they did. In an ideal world, we would ensure that these people--the entire family--get seen by skilled professionals who can evaluate what happened here & do something about fixing it. Perhaps there are cognitive issues, perhaps a drug problem--who knows? An incident such as this should be seen as an open invitation to explore why it happened, and figure out a way to prevent something equally as bad from happening again.

But we have no money for this sort of intervention. County budgets have been stripped of resources so that the rich can have a few dollars more at the end of each year.

[Coventina]

36. I understand your point but I respectfully disagree with you and here's why:

Remorse is no reason to avoid consequences for one's actions, even if no harm was intended.

What if a paid care-giver had done this? The child's injuries would be the same, but if the care-giver is really, really sorry, would the parents be OK and not press for prosecution?

Does not the child (who may have live-altering injuries) as the victim and citizen of the state, have an equal interest in both cases?

What about people who text and drive and kill people with their cars? They never intended harm, but their stupidity killed. If they're really, really sorry about it, should we excuse them?

Also, the zoo was a victim here. This action exposed their animals to harm (zoo animals, due to their isolation tend to have weak immune systems), not to mention the personnel that went in to retrieve the child. And, as someone pointed out on the thread, there's a very real possibility that some moron might take their anger at the child's injuries out on the jaguars.

Should the zoo just shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, as long as they're SORRY!"
No, they should press for prosecution. Our local zoo has very strict trespassing guidelines and informs people that breaking the rules is breaking the LAW.

[Jackpine Radical]

39. But how does punishment help?

I'm not at all saying that we should ignore what happened or turn a blind eye to the problem, but it seems to me that punishment is unlikely to be the most effective way to address the the causes of the incident, and by disrupting whatever stability the family might have, it may be quite counterproductive. We need to at least understand the nature of the problem before we prescribe the solution. To do otherwise is to let our reptile brains dictate our actions.

[pipi_k]

52. How about this as a punishment...

Community service in the zoo, picking up trash and other garbage for a specified length of time.

PLUS

mandatory daily viewing (about a week maybe) of digitally generated footage of a kid being placed on a wall surrounding the home of wild animals by idiot relatives, falling in, and being inspected by the animals at the bottom. Or maybe even mauled, which was what COULD have happened.

hopefully that would cure them of doing stupid shit ever again.

[Coventina]

66. Apologies for my tardy reply, I was at work all day yesterday.

First of all, I never said anyone should go to prison over this, and I don't think that they should.

And, by "punishment" - well, I guess it depends on how you define it.
I like some of the other posters' ideas about community service and/or other court-mandated prescriptions such as mandatory counseling, garnishment of income for the boy's treatment, etc. (No, I don't automatically trust that the family will do the right thing. They've already broken that trust).

But I DO think that there needs to be court proceedings, that those responsible for this child's injuries should have to face a judge and account for their actions.

Prison, as some have pointed out, is an entirely different matter and I DON'T think it is appropriate in this case.

[Jackpine Radical]

67. I have nothing against court action; in fact, that's exactly what should happen, but

I'm trying to suggest the need to inject specific knowledge of the circumstances & wisdom into the case.

I've done psych evaluations of literally thousands of criminal offenders, ranging from several murder cases to minor misdemeanor offenses, & I generally perceived my role as that of providing information to the court about the psychological characteristics, history, etc. of the people I was asked to evaluate.

I can think of a number of possible circumstances that might have an important bearing on what happened and why. I just don't want to see a court make some simple-minded decision based on outrage, the urge to punish, and a set of false assumptions.

[kcr]

32. I wouldn't argue for jail, but there is a difference

Deliberately ignoring signs and purposefully placing a child on a safety barrier is much different than a lapse of attention which is often unintentional. It doesn't matter if the intent isn't to harm.

[uppityperson]

37. doing community service might be a good solution.

[Xithras]

28. There is only one valid reason to send someone to prison.

To protect society from the actions of a person who has proved themselves a threat to society. Hopefully, with enough rehabilitative intervention so that the threat can be removed. Otherwise, with the intent that incarceration will deter a future threat from them.

Unless you have evidence that the parents dangled the kid maliciously, then they aren't a threat. Stupidity isn't a crime. If we start imprisoning every person who does something stupid and puts another person at risk, we'd end up locking away half our youth (and a significant portion of the rest of the country).

CPS should certainly be involved, and their fitness as parents is certainly in question, but prison is a bit over the top.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. You must have hit POST a few seconds before me.

I posted very similar thoughts in #27.

[kcr]

33. Children are members of society

They aren't belongings. I would also argue that society is harmed when zoos have to close down when we can't have nice things because of negligent assholes.

[Xithras]

35. So stupid parents should be imprisoned?

Really?

[kcr]

38. When they endanger their children, sometimes yes.

They aren't belongings to do with whatever one wishes.

[Xithras]

41. The U.S. is home to 5% of the worlds humans and 25% of the worlds prison population.

Attitudes like yours show us why that is. Prison is not a solution for societies ills.

If they are unfit to be parents, then take the kids away. Incarceration can't cure a lack of common sense.

[kcr]

42. No it isn't because of people like me. It's the war on drugs and privatized prisons.

Take care of those problems. Don't make children chattel.

[Xithras]

43. No.

America is one of the most punitive nations on Earth. When someone does something that we disagree with, we have this juvenile concept that they must be "punished" through imprisonment. That's why the "Land of the Free" imprisons more of its population than Iran and Cuba combined. And that's as a percentage of the population. The next closest western nation to us, statistically, is Poland, and their incarceration is just over a quarter of ours. Even if you subtract out the most broadly encompassing statistic, which estimates that roughly 48% of the American prison population is locked up because of drugs, the United States still ends up with an imprisonment rate almost twice that of Poland, and three times that of most western democracies.

Drug crimes and corporate prisons are a convenient excuse, but they don't really address the problem. America is a punitive nation, and we seem to have conflated the concepts of revenge and justice. Revenge served by the government is not justice.

[Comrade Grumpy]

50. We are a punisher culture. You see right here on this progressive board all the time.

It's depressing.

[kcr]

63. The solution to being overly punitive isn't going in the complete opposite direction

at the expensive of others rights. Children are human beings with basic rights of their own. I don't think every accident a parent makes should be punished with jail time. But negligence can and does rise to that level. Otherwise children become nothing but chattel. At soem point people have to become accountable for their actions when they cause harm to others. That doesn't change just because the person harmeds is a child.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

6. Stupid comment...

[closeupready]

15. lol, I know, right? Welcome to DU.

Lot of weirdos here, but after a while, you feel like, they're OUR weirdos.

[valerief]

59. It was jaguar the animal, not Jaguar the car. I'm sure you must have misunderstood, because

your response is alarmingly incomprehensible for any responsible person to support.

[geek tragedy]

8. the jaguars were not trying to hurt the child.

he would obviously not be alive if they were

[Coventina]

18. I had the same thought.

If they'd wanted him dead and eaten, it would have happened well before any sort of rescue was possible.
I'm guessing the major injuries are from the fall.

[Bettie]

9. When mine were little

If they couldn't see we'd put them up on our shoulders to get a better look. It would never have occurred to either my husband or me to endanger them by putting them over a long drop with wild animals below.

Some people don't seem to understand how quickly a small child can wiggle out of your grasp.

Hoping the child survives and I wish peace for his mother (and the rest of his family, but I have a special affinity for the moms, being one myself).

[malaise]

11. Precisely

and you were not also attempting to photograph the animals

[Bettie]

17. When mine were that age, photographing anything

would mean taking my eyes off the little goobers.

They were fast and my middle one was that kid who could seemingly teleport, since he would be there one second and someplace else the next.

You've got to watch the little ones who don't have the sense or knowledge yet to protect themselves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. is there a rise in this sort of thing. i feel like in the last year, i have read more

about this than in years past

[TBF]

40. Like everything else I think we are just hearing

more about these cases with everyone on their smart phones and passing along info.

Dogs left in cars, kids left in cars etc.

Maybe a little more awareness is happening as these stories get passed along - that's what I hope anyway.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. I think that has a lot to do with it

Also the fact the media loves stories like this because it gets people to comment on it. Whereas asshole Republicans stealing our future is not as interesting.

But there is definitely a rise in self centered assholes who simply ignore signs and common sense. I can bet you if someone had gone over and admonished the father or grandfather for doing what they did before the child fell, almost certainly it would have included a wisecrack "Get a life!" type comment from the family. People don't give a shit anymore until they realize the consequences of disobeying rules.

[kiva]

16. Whoever was holding the child

=incredibly stupid. I wouldn't have a problem with charging them with a version of child endangerment if it involved community service.

Mostly though, I want to say that I'm impressed with the zoo staff who risked their own safety to rescue the child without killing the jaguars.

[Coventina]

19. I read the article, and from the descriptions of the jaguars' behavior

it sounds like they were trying to move him.

All felines, regardless of size, move their young by picking them up in their mouths by the back of the neck. The kits have loose folds of skin that allow for this. Unfortunately, humans don't, so the jaguars might have caused harm they didn't intend.

[malaise]

20. The jaguars are not to blame here

It's the stupid parent

[Coventina]

21. True, even if the jaguars had him reduced to a pile of bones

before the zoo personnel could do anything, it still wouldn't be their fault.

I'm totally with you that the father should be prosecuted for child endangerment.
This wasn't a moment's inattention (which can happen to anyone) this was direct action that caused the child to be hurt.

[pipi_k]

23. Yep...it's like the difference

between taking your eyes off your kid for two seconds and he gets hold of a sharp knife and cuts himself


and purposely giving the kid a sharp knife and he cuts himself.

[pipi_k]

22. This is just one example of

the many reasons why I often despise my own species.

We are incredibly stupid at times, and often it's others who end up suffering as a result of our stupidity.

It's a shame when such a so-called "intelligent" species has to be protected from itself.


Sad that the poor kid suffered injuries and trauma. I also hope that the jaguars were only moved to a different zoo or something (for their own protection, since some other blithering idiots out there might decide to punish them by throwing poisoned meat in or something.

And one thing I'd like to see in zoos is very high chain link fences with barbed wire at the top, around the perimeter of similar exhibits. Not to keep the animals in. To keep brainless asshole humans out.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Should Michael Jackson have been criminally prosecuted for this?

[malaise]

25. If the child had dropped he would have been

charged

[phil89]

27. Umm yes, of course

he should have.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

57. I think most people thought he showed himself to be an unfit parent right there

So, now what?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. The child is now in stable condition and is expected to recover.

http://www.arklatexhomepage.com/story/d/story/child-who-fell-15-feet-into-jaguar-pit-at-little-r/66196/OPoCYHYMYEKy5kvVmqCyfQ

Which, of course, doesn't make the adults' actions any less stupid.

[3catwoman3]

31. Over my nearly 4 decades in pediatrics, I have often...

...thought that parenthood should require a license, and I would be more than happy to decide who gets one and who doesn't. I wouldn't lose any sleep over those to whom I said "No."

[closeupready]

47. "One family, one child" - sort of that kind of thing?

[3catwoman3]

64. Not at all. Obviously, this is strictly fantasy...

...but I do wish there could be some sort of basic competency screening before people take on the most crucial job they will ever do. Lots of couples go to various types of premarital counseling to look at basic expectations about marriage. Doing the same thing for parenthood could be really beneficial. Unfortunately, anyone who is fertile and can juxtapose the requisite body parts can be come a parent. No skills required.

In my fantasy world, those who didn't pass the basic common sense screening could attend classes to beef up their knowledge , and "re-apply." No limit to how many times the classes could be attended.

I would also put temporary sterility devices in both genders prior to puberty that could not be removed until age 25. Screw around all you want before then, but don't make new human beings until you are mature enough and financially stable enough to care for them -

[Demit]

34. I'm trying to picture what made the 'family member' let go.

The story just says that the child fell. Just like guns go off. All by themselves, without any agency from whoever did the action. You're holding a child above a 16 foot drop! What made the unidentified family member loosen his hold, I wonder?

[malaise]

45. Watch the video at link

Apparently he was taking photos of the jaguars

[Demit]

48. Well, I watched the whole news report, and

after being distracted by the anchor talking about the two "jag-wires," didn't learn much else. The father was taking pictures, the grandfather was the one who hoisted the boy up onto the railing, then the boy "tumbled below. It was unclear how that happened."

So, not informative on that point. I suspect everyone wants to be sensitive to how the family must feel and prefers to elide over the fact that the grandfather let go & dropped him. The kid's a three year old. I guess he was squirmy.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

58. Grandpa probably wasn't as strong as he thought he was

Maybe the kid slipped out of a jacket.

Every carry something real heavy, and you think you got it, and then there comes that second where your realize your going to lose it and can't react? Don't do that with a kid and a jaguar pit.

[RebelOne]

44. Here's an article I posted in 2012

about a boy who fell into a crocodile pit in Miami in 1977. The father had him on the rails of the fence above the pit.

At the Miami Serpentarium, I remember a little boy being put on a wall

by his father to take a photo. Beneath that wall was a pit with a giant crocodile. The boy fell into the pit and the croc devoured the boy. The article does not tell the whole story of what happened. It just said that the boy fell in. The Miami Herald reported the real story and it was the father's fault.

In my opinion, it was the father who should have been shot and not the croc. It just thought it was thrown dinner.

I had visited the Sepemtarium a few times and I saw that crocodile and it was indeed massive.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/21/local/la-me-bill-haast-20110621

The attraction had a gift shop, 400-pound turtles, a 20-foot python. It also had a pit with a 12-foot crocodile called Cookie who weighed, literally, a ton. After a 6-year-old boy fell in and died in 1977, Haast went into the pit with a pistol the next day and shot the croc.

[KittyWampus]

46. Remember the father who INTENTIONALLY left his son in the car so he'd bake to death?

It's been posted many times- the article how parents might leave a child in the car by accident. Tired parents, over worked, changed routine.

So we, as a general rule, might be willing to call leaving a child in the car on a hot day an accident & let parent off.

HOWEVER, there is an interest in investigating. As in the story with the father who did it on purpose.

Furthermore, our legal system does recognize negligence and endangerment when it comes to children.

Maybe the parents/grandparents should be interviewed and charged with negligence… with classes or some sort of community service.

A poster upthread brought up a valid point… what if a care-giver had done this? Would we be so quick to just excuse a paid care=giver? Why or why not?

[KamaAina]

49. I was hoping it would be a car show or a football game in Jacksonville.

Hell, the kid could have fallen right in front of the Jags' defense and no one would have laid a finger on him!

[Initech]

61. Well at the car show the exhibits are much safer!

[bobGandolf]

51. My guess is...

that it's a good example of parent unable to say no. Child: "I can't see, pick me up?"

I do not believe they should be arrested.

[Politicalboi]

53. First off, I hope the child is okay

Second, I hope the cats are okay. Can't blame them when food is dropped into their enclosure. I bet the stupid father has an attorney already. Do we know this wasn't intentional? Like putting a baby in a hot car and saying I forgot. You gotta be some kind of stupid to be so careless with a 3 year old.

[liberalmuse]

54. I think they've probably learned their lesson.

What is prison going to solve in this case except to satisfy some people's need for vengeance and excessive punishment?

[Blue_Tires]

65. Wait until dad and granddad sue the zoo for $20 million

for not having "adequate safety measures"

[IVoteDFL]

55. I've never once gone to the zoo without seeing people hoisting kids up on the railing

Hell in the video at the posted link includes a woman who admits she lets her kids climb all over the place at the zoo. I know I can remember my dad hoisting me up there as well. In recent years the zoo I went to installed netting that goes far up and over the exhibits so that falling in is next to impossible unless you climb ten feet over the net first. It seems like such a simple and wise solution that I don't see why more zoos don't build something similar.

That said, Jaguars possess an ability to crush through bone with their teeth, if they had attacked that kid he would be dead. It seems that Agave was possibly trying to move the child away from the crap the dad was throwing at them when he bit him in the back of the neck.

[seabeyond]

62. that said, ... it is done hundreds of thousands of times without a kid falling in.

and yes. that sounds like a doable plan. the places i have been, have started doing things like this also. the reality. the zoo isnt really for al us older people that can see over the railings. but the younger kids, and they cannot see.

i hate comments like, throw grandpas ass in jail, for what will be a rest of his life, sorrow and guilt.

[seabeyond]

60. personally, i think the grandfather will suffer enough for an accident. nt