Teen Who Bragged About Threesome With Teachers Feels Really Bad

[NaturalHigh]

The teenage boy at the center of the Louisiana school threesome scandal is devastated that his bragging has ruined the promising careers of two teachers.

'He is really down about it right now,' the high school junior's grandfather told MailOnline in an exclusive interview. 'All boys that age want to brag about what they are doing. He didn't expect it would come to this.'

The teachers, Rachel Respess, 24, and married mom-of-three Shelley Dufresne, 32, are currently out on bond awaiting trial for having sex with their student. They are on unpaid leave from their jobs at Destrehan High School and are unlikely ever to return.

'He feels really bad,' said the boy's grandfather. 'These women have families and he knows how terrible it is for them. He knows they will never be able to teach again and could very well go to prison.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2787114/all-boys-want-brag-didn-t-expect-come-16-year-old-threesome-two-teachers-squealed-classmates-crushed-prison-says-grandfather.html?ito=social-facebook


Just kind of a WTF story all the way around.

[Throd]

1. Don't fuck your students. Problem solved.

[NaturalHigh]

3. That was my philosophy when I was a teacher.

[REP]

32. Better yet, don't rape them

[Adrahil]

43. Yup. Not that hard to figure out.

[Nay]

49. Really. Good god. The kid didn't ruin their lives -- they did it to

themselves. For a fuck. A fuck! I just can't imagine such idiocy.

[hfojvt]

126. no, actually it is the government that is doing it to them

with a lot of self-righteous people cheering them on, of course.

And then there are other people thinking that the prosecution/persecution is ridiculous.

[NaturalHigh]

138. Do only self-righteous people think it's wrong...

for teachers to have sex with their students.

[hfojvt]

159. students?

I tend to think that promiscuity is wrong. Far as I know this teacher had sex with ONE student. Not the whole algebra class.

Self righteous people are ones who want to see lives ruined when somebody *gasp* does something that they disapprove of even though a victim does not really exist.

[samsingh]

160. i agree with you

alot of people are self righteous in this area, then get upset when tough sentences are suggested for acts such as murder.

[yellowcanine]

170. Would you feel the same way if the teachers were male and the student female?

Just wondering.

[NaturalHigh]

171. My guess is that the majority here would not.

A lot of people talking about "fantasy come true" would instead be calling this a gang rape.

[hfojvt]

180. probably not

For one very simple reason. Once upon a time, I was a fifteen year old male, and still remember the experience. As I remember it, I was very eager to have sex with attractive women.

In fact, that's still pretty high on my list of "things I would really like to do". As such, I cannot think of such a person as a "victim" in any way, shape or form. Especially if they are not complaining, I find such a characterization to be ridiculous, absurd, even borderline insane. It just makes no damned sense.

I don't have the same experience of being a teenage female. So I don't have the knowledge base on which to have an opinion. I'd listen to my sisters on that.

[yellowcanine]

181. So if a 15 year old girl had a big hairy crush on a male teacher it's ok for him to act on it?

How about it that 15 year old girl is your daughter and the teacher is 32 and married. Still ok?

The law says minors cannot consent to sex with adults. Is the law wrong?

[NaturalHigh]

183. That's kind of the point I've been trying to push.

I have a teenage son and daughter, and I can promise you that I would do my best to see to it that these teachers never got near a classroom again.

[hfojvt]

184. okay?

I guess I can imagine having a daughter. I was very fond of Tasia, and still think of her as a daughter even though I will probably never see her again.

Here's the thing though. I would not want my daughter to smoke, or drink, or have sex with her teachers.

But if SHE chooses to do those things, my problem is with her. And of the three, probably sex is the least of my concerns.

As for a married teacher, I really do not care for infidelity or the people who engage in it, but I don't think they should lose their jobs or goto prison because of it. It's more of an issue between them and their spouse.

[F4lconF16]

192. But to get this straight, you're okay with a 15 yr old having sex with a 32 yr old.

Got it.

[In_The_Wind]

101. Yup. eom.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. This child was victimized by predators

He shouldn't feel bad about what's happening to them.

[davidn3600]

13. OK...and what if the genders were reversed?

There have been relationships between male teachers and female students that had no "physical coercion."

Would you still hesitate to call it rape?

[NaturalHigh]

89. I think everyone knows the answer to that.

There would be calls to hold the men in a gibbet before the trial.

[Starry Messenger]

21. It was rape.

He's a minor.

As a teacher, I am relieved that his two rapists will have no more easy access to children.

[Luminous Animal]

29. Yep. I hope someday the kid grows up to recognize this.

[Starry Messenger]

34. This story makes me furious.

Playing on a child's concern that harm will come to the adult if he tells is classic abuser manipulation.

I hope he's in therapy and I wish the press would leave him alone.

[Luminous Animal]

38. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is furious about this.

[MattBaggins]

25. How is your comment not hidden

Rape apology.... how nice

[Logical]

35. It was! nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

47. It was.

On Thu Oct 16, 2014, 09:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

He probably feels bad that he isn't gonna get any more action
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5676641

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Unbelievable comment. And if roles were reversed it would be locked. Please lock this one.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 16, 2014, 09:12 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Under 17 in LA *is* statutory rape, but this needs to be discussed without poutrage.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: What a disgusting and disturbing comment. Do you really think there has to be physical coercion for it to be rape? And quid pro quo for better grades? Incredible. And seriously, very disturbing. Hide this bullshit.

[yeoman6987]

7. I feel bad for him

He told his friends the best night of his young life and it effected the lives of two young teachers. It is a good lesson for him to stop bragging to your friends. That was mistake number one. I wonder how the jury is going to decide. He will get on the stand and probably beg for their freedom.

[MattBaggins]

24. It effected the lives of two young rapists

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 10:29 PM - Edit history (1)

for that I am glad. Hopefully, a few sensible people will enter his life and explain to him how what these two predators did was wrong and he should feel no sorrow.

On a side note; how the fuck do rape apologies stand on DU.

[yeoman6987]

41. Your side note is unreadable

You screwed it up somehow. Thanks for the attempt. Kinda takes away from your whatever you meant reply. Sorry. A do over may be necessary if you want any point taken.

[samsingh]

161. yes, let's not let anyone express a different opinion

let's ban them

[alp227]

84. So the rape victim shouldn't BRAG first of all? Really? nt

[cali]

9. He was 17, I believe, at the time

The summer before my son turned 17, he had an a affair with a 23 year old. Granted, I didn't know about it until some months after, but I wouldn't have done anything about it if I had known.

She wasn't his teacher and I do think teachers deserve to be fired for this.

18 isn't some magical age where maturity and wisdom arrive full blown. I don't consider a 17 year old a child. They're not quite adults but neither are they quite children. In any case, the age of consent in most states is 16.

[Jenoch]

16. He was 16 at the time.

The age of consent in Louisiana is 17. The age of consent in 'most states' is not 16. For instance, the age of consent is 18 in California.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. Your link says the age of consent is 16 in 30 states, plus DC

17 in 8 of them; 18 in 12.

[LeftyMom]

31. Authority figures shouldn't fuck their subordinates. It's ethically questionable at best.

Hell, one of my college instructors was married to a former student and even though they apparently didn't start dating until she was in grad school somewhere else (of course they had to say that or he'd have been canned) the other instructors gave him some serious side eye for it.

Likewise most companies will can bosses who get involved with subordinates.

And all of those people are adults. Kids and teachers is a whole new level of questionable ethics. Because here's the deal: getting involved with anybody who can't tell you to fuck off without fear of consequences is a bad idea.

[Starry Messenger]

36. +1000

[nomorenomore08]

59. +2000

[cali]

79. I made that clear in my post.

It really isn't hard to figure out that from this:

She wasn't his teacher and I do think teachers deserve to be fired for this.

Obviously, I think it's wrong for those in authority to fuck their subordinates.

[hfojvt]

135. theoretically I can see that

I suppose.

But in practical terms, it makes no sense. When I was fifteen, I had a German teacher who was gorgeous. She was about 23, but married, of course.

It was a long time ago, but I can still remember having the hots for her. If she had returned the feelings and consented to sex with me, there's no way I would have considered myself a victim. More like a lottery winner with a $10,000,000 ticket.

And I cannot imagine ever wanting to tell her to fuck off either. Oh the horror. Here's a sexual relationship that starts in the middle of the 2nd semester. And now I have to keep having sex with her for the rest of the school year.

Okay, maybe I start a relationship with one of my classmates. So I want to tell my superhot teacher "well, I am having sex with the prom queen now, so I don't want to see you any more."

I guess if that happened, then I would be a victim. Terrifying to imagine being in a scenario like that. What a nightmare.

Here's an idea, for somebody to have sex with a subordinate who consents isn't anybody else's business. Not unless or until the boss abuses their position for coercion.

[LeftyMom]

141. The problem is that consent in those situations is basically impossible to verify.

In that same situation what if the teacher was not attractive but you were afraid of her? What if you needed to get a good grade in her class or you'd lose your college scholarship, and were afraid to turn her down? What if she was a friend of your parents and you couldn't tell? All of these things are real possibilities in such a scenario. Teenagers aren't equipped with the experience or the social skills to deal with these social situations: they're difficult even for adults.

Again, anybody who can't freely tell somebody to fuck off can't give reliably unconcerned consent.

I find it really odd that team What About the MEN??? is all up in this thread either defending rape or complaining that other people don't take the rape of boys seriously enough. You guys need to get your shit together and find one stupid comment to make.

[NaturalHigh]

147. Um...maybe you've heard...

not all men have the same opinions. It works the same for women. Your snark is kindly noted, though.

[hfojvt]

185. I'm reporting you

to the team captain.

Just as soon as I figure out who the captain is.

I think it is still Lumberjack Jeff, but I missed the last two meetings.

Actually I have not seen him in a while, but I have not been that active hear lately either.

[NaturalHigh]

186. I've been benched anyway.

Apparently I haven't been to practice enough and haven't gotten the playbook down.

[hfojvt]

152. uhm, maybe we are not a team?

And for every "what if" you want to create that does not negate all the other what-ifs where the purported "victim" is later bragging about being "raped". To compare what happened to this kid to what happens to real rape victims ought to be kind of insulting to real rape victims.

I claimed that sex between a teacher and a student is not rape unless there is coercion involved.

So then you argue back "but what if there IS coercion?"

Of course, the trouble is that coercion could be implied. Teacher never actually SAYS "have sex with me or your grade suffers" but student FEELS like it is a possibility, and thus FEELS coerced.

But there you have it, if somebody feels like a victim, they can then file a complaint. But if, instead of feeling like a victim, they are bragging to their friends about how lucky they are. Well, I am not jumping on the bandwagon of the finger-waggers trying to create some Kantian absolute where goddamit he's a victim whether he feels like one or not.

Let me modify Pink Floyd a little bit.

"Hey, moral purists, leave those kids alone"

[F4lconF16]

197. And here I really thought

That only Republicans define the difference between "real rape" and other types of rape

[hfojvt]

199. well you can blame that on my math degree

the ability to tell the difference between 4 and 4,000 and thus not believing they are equal.

Rape is sort of the equivalent trauma, let's say, of getting your leg cut off by a chainsaw. Very painful and very traumatic. An injury which is NOT the same as getting a paper cut. Funny how that works.

But that's okay. You are disgusted by anybody who disagrees with you, and think your lack of tolerance is some kind of argument. So carry on.

[yellowcanine]

174. Are you suggesting there be no statutory rape laws?

Under statutory rape laws a minor cannot consent to sex with an adult. The fact that the minor might not consider themselves a victim is not a defense.

[hfojvt]

182. actually a "minor" often can

the age of consent in many states (somebody said 30 + DC) is 16 - a legal minor can still legally consent to sex.

In barbaric countries like Canada and Germany, the age of consent is 14.

I think the lower ages of consent make much more sense, but I would be interested in statistics as well, if they could be compiled. What percentage of 15 year olds have had sex?

And, of course, a 13 year old can consent to have sex with another 13 year old legally and neither of them is guilty of statutory rape.

[hifiguy]

164. Yours is the ethical point upon which this discussion should properly turn.

Would people be up in arms if the 16YO kid had had sex with an 18YO GF? If so, get a life as things like that happen all the time every day.

The proper issue meriting concern here is that it was teachers and not a girlfriend. The power relations are the real issue here, not the sex. And the teachers should be disciplined but jail hardly seems appropriate. They should know better.

[CTyankee]

168. That reminded me of that movie "Summer of '42." It was a beautiful evocation of a kid

probably 17, who has has his first sexual encounter with a beautiful woman in her 20s.

And there's the play "Tea and Sympathy."

[NaturalHigh]

172. Now you're just talking about stuff that was way before my time.

Was the female character that lad's teacher?

[CTyankee]

187. Not in either one. in "Summer of '42" she and the kid's famiiy were on the Vineyard

for the summer. She was the young wife of a soldier who was fighting in the war in the Pacific and he helps her carry provisions in the house and runs errands for her. She gets a telegram that her husband been killed and she seduces the boy that night. Then she leaves, remorseful and sad.

In "Tea and Sympathy" the kid is in an exclusive boarding school and the woman is his teacher's wife who felt sorry for the confused young lad. It was a stage play and a movie.

[Blue_Tires]

5. How is it that all these teachers are humping students?

and I can't get any action as a grown, mature adult?

Of course the story completely loses it's LOL-flavor if the genders were reversed...

[Stallion]

11. ANSWER: Internet Dating

You should be required to meet your loved one the old fashioned way-in a dimly lit Bar near closing time

[Blue_Tires]

12. I guess that's my problem

I don't drink, so I feel like an imposter hanging out in bars...

[get the red out]

111. I just think we find out about it now

When I was young, back in the late 70s/early 80s, we would hear rumors of stuff like this all around school (not a teacher in this case but a former teacher who hired teenaged boys to "work" in his business). Most adults simply discarded teenaged gossip back then, no matter how lurid.

There was also a teacher who married a former student one year after she graduated from high school. Not one word, not one dirty look (except among us kids).

[NaturalHigh]

112. When I was a teacher...

roughly 15 years ago, I knew two teachers who married their former students.

[Downwinder]

6. Kiss and Tell.

He will carry that with him.

[MattBaggins]

26. What a disgusting post

[RiffRandell]

33. Yeah, and it probably won't happen again any time soon.

Not condoning it, but if he was bragging he must have enjoyed it just a little bit.

The women were wrong and stupid to think he would keep it a secret. A teenager?

Kind of like Monica trusting Linda Tripp...yeah, she wasn't going to tell anyone.

[NaturalHigh]

88. I don't even know what you're trying to say.

Probably don't want to...

[badtoworse]

8. I feel for the kid. Hopefully, he will realize that what happened was wrong.

Those women do not belong in a classroom. Hopefully, when the kid matures, he will recognize that they did not deserve to be protected. He did others teens a service even though he didn't intend that.

[AngryAmish]

10. r/nottheonion

[scarystuffyo]

14. Some of the reponses surprise me

17 year old female student

24 year old male teacher
34 year old male teacher

All involved in a 3 some

Some people would be losing their minds calling the men rapists

Whether it was consensual or not

[Kber]

18. Gotta agree and thank you

For stating what should be completely obvious.

[bigwillq]

19. You are right.

There is a double standard in situations like this.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

22. + 1

Obviously

[MattBaggins]

28. This post would be perfect for handing out bans.

Rape apology on DU. Unbelievable.

[scarystuffyo]

39. I'm just trying to understand the comments and I can't.

If this was anyone's 16 year old son and two adult teachers did this to him .

I really feel the comments would different .

[msanthrope]

91. Never read a Julian Assange or Roman Polanski thread on this board.

You'll puke.

[NaturalHigh]

92. The Roman Polanski threads are the worst.

[msanthrope]

95. Assange defender threads have the added taint of CIA conspiracy lunacy,

so there's always that tinge of crazy.....

[NaturalHigh]

96. I guess I mostly stayed out of those.

Honestly, I don't know much about Assange or his alleged crimes. I think I might have been taking a break around the time that whole thing went crazy.

[d_r]

30. Yep

i agree with you.

[Luminous Animal]

40. Notice who the responses are coming from. Men you wouldn't mind

being raped at age 16.

[Lancero]

81. Stems from the idea of

That males can't be raped, because they enjoy sex. Or that they are just 'making it up' (See posts 23, 51, 44)

A lot of anti-rape projects portray rape as a women's only issue. Its conditioned a lot of people to believe that only women can be raped, so to a lot of people the idea of a male rape victim is completely unnatural. They hear that a man was raped, and they think how can this big, strong, man have been raped? How come he didn't fight back? He should just put his big boy pants on and get over it. It wasn't rape, because he was aroused!

Excluding the first, the last three are all comments that would get someone labeled as a misogynist if they were referring to women instead.

This episode of LaO-SVU touched upon a lot of this - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629717/

[alp227]

85. "Whether it was consensual or not"?

Uhh...17 year old = probably not consensual. Your post isn't any better than those responses you condemn.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

106. Whether it's PC to say so or not

many males would have been happy to trade places with him. Teen guys generally want to have sex, and don't actually care that they're 'underage'. If I had been offered a chance to have sex at 17 or even 15, yeah, I would have taken it. Ditto a threesome. And it wouldn't have taken anyone 'preying on me' or 'taking advantage of me' despite that fact that it would be technically illegal. Anyone calling those statements 'rape apology' either has never been a teenage male, or has forgotten what those years were like, or have a very atypical teenage male life.

[NaturalHigh]

108. That is undoubtedly true.

It doesn't excuse the roles that these adult teachers played, though.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

109. Correct.

They literally are 'the adults' in this situation, and should have had the judgement abilities to realize that this was a bad idea all around.

[hifiguy]

165. Your common sense in this discussion is highly admirable.

[FLPanhandle]

15. The teachers should never be allowed in a school again.

Totally stupid.

[bigwillq]

17. Three lives ruined

I feel bad for the boy. Not his fault, for the threesome or the "bragging". Most young men would have bragged.

[get the red out]

113. Absolutely!

I keep wondering what possesses adults, teachers no less, to destroy their lives in this way? And have no regard for harming a child?

[NaturalHigh]

114. I wonder that too.

It's not like it was in the past when this sort of stuff is usually ignored (though I know it still is). These days it is likely to be posted on Facebook with pictures.

[chrisa]

20. If a 16 year old girl was raped by a 32 year old man, DUers would be calling for his execution.

Both situations are wrong. Once again, women are thought of as not being the initiators of who they have sex with, and the male (a 16 year old boy) is blamed. It's sexism and shows how patriarchal our society is.

[Logical]

27. + 1000 nt

[Seeking Serenity]

42. Because there are way too many people here and elsewhere

who secretly believe or not so secretly believe that men or boys cannot get raped unless it's by another male. And that women cannot rape.

And of course it's an ugly, ugly double standard. One held, in my opinion, by ugly, ugly people.

[AverageJoe90]

55. I'm sorry.....but you got it fucking backwards, amigo.

If there'd be any evidence of sexism and patriarchy in this case......it would be these women getting the full 17 and a half year sentence proposed in the article! Do you know why I say that, Chris? Because when women have sex, actual sexists almost always see the woman as the perpetrator, as the wrongdoer, pretty much regardless of the circumstance!

And yet that one guy up in Montana.....who actually DID rape someone.....he got a slap on the wrist. And many of the same sexists and misogynists who condemn women teachers for having ANY sex, are very often all too eager to defend MALE teachers, no matter how bad they acted, and no matter the evidence.

I hated to be harsh, but I've seen that kinda thing play out all too often, including from plenty of so-called "Men's Rights" Activists.

[ProfessorGAC]

99. Except. . .

. . .they're never going to get the 17.5 years. Doubtful there is prison time at all. THe judicial system has bigger fish to fry.

Losing their jobs and having to cop a plea will be punishment enough.

[AverageJoe90]

189. "Losing their jobs and having to cop a plea will be punishment enough." Which I agree with. nt

[hifiguy]

201. And that would be an entirely appropriate and rational punishment.

[NaturalHigh]

100. Just so I'm clear...

are you defending the teachers or not? I'm not being snarky; I just can't tell from some of your posts.

[AverageJoe90]

190. In all honesty.....

I can definitely understand that there are some ethical issues involved. And technically, they did, just barely, break the law.

And to be honest, for some reason, it just happened to bring back some bad memories of the Montana case for me last night. Though perhaps I really should have calmed down a bit before writing some of my other posts.

[NaturalHigh]

191. I understand.

To me, the biggest issue is that the women were his teachers, not that they were older. In Oklahoma, that is more than just barely breaking the law.

[mythology]

216. Actually he was resentenced to 10 years

That's not 17.5 years, but it's not a slap on the wrist.

And for the record, these two women also "actually DID rape someone".

[LisaL]

205. One men, let alone two.

Even if she actively participated, people would be calling for male teachers heads.
Double standards are alive and well.

[NaturalHigh]

210. There would LITERALLY be calls for castration.

Yes, there is a double standard.

Note that I would be incensed if the genders would be reversed too. I would undoubtedly want the men imprisoned, and I would want to be sure the men would never see the inside of a school for any reason.

Again, I was a teacher, and I really think these teachers who use their positions to have sex with kids are despicable predators. I don't care if they're men or women.

[LisaL]

213. Yes, if two male teachers were accused of having sex with a 16 year old female student, I doubt

there would be posts like I've seen by some posters, suggesting that it's no big deal and in fact this student was lucky.

[whistler162]

23. Next question.....

is his bragging true?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

51. That is what I am wondering...

Did this really happen or did he come up with this to impress his friends? Guess we won't know till after the case goes to court.

[Nye Bevan]

37. I hate it when teachers rape their students. (nt)

[Comrade Grumpy]

44. Saying those teachers "raped" that consenting kid does a disservice to the word.

The kid bragged about it. He didn't feel raped.

Yes, it was statutory rape. But conflating that with being forced to have sex without your consent is wrong.

[MattBaggins]

45. Thankfully your neanderthal views are going the way of the Dodo

A 32 year old adult in a position of power taking advantage of a teenager is despicable, and shame on you for defending it.

It was rape rape, real rape and people of conscience will continue to prosecute it as such.

[MattBaggins]

56. As is typical with some of the more ancient views of rape

you are concerned with the consent of a minor as somehow being core to the issue.

The teenager is not being prosecuted the ADULTS are. It is about what the adults did which was rape and civilized people won't water it down to please the "statutory" crowd.

[nomorenomore08]

63. If it were two random women this boy had had sex with, I might concede you the point.

The fact that they were his teachers pushes it into the "definitely criminal" category.

[alp227]

86. Rape is rape. No nuance. Period.

Seriously. What were you thinking here?

[msanthrope]

93. Um, as a criminal defense attorney, I will tell you that you are utterly and completely

wrong on the law.

[DirkGently]

107. The definition of "consent" is different, though, right?

Statutory rape makes a legal presumption that people of a given age are "incapable of consent." That is a valid rationale up to a point, but it is certainly not identical to actual consent.

We have moved the age of consent around, and thereby made "rapists" and "consenting adults" out of various people after the fact.

And we do acknowledge this difference in the law. "Romeo and Juliet" laws account for closeness in age so that an 18-yr-old may not be deemed to have "statutorily raped" a 17-yr-old.

The concept is fine, but fully conflating lack of actual consent with lack of legally valid consent is just not possible and it's weird to pretend otherwise.

[msanthrope]

117. Your focus is incorrect...intent is irrelevant in a strict liability

crime. Consent is also irrelevant, a red herring you aren't going to be allowed to argue in a courtroom.

Romeo and Juliet laws exist because the recognized intent of statutory rape laws is not to criminalize intimate relations between minors who are in non-coercive relationships with each other.

Conflating? Hey....prison time is prison time. Sex offender registry is the same no matter what 'type' of rape.

[DirkGently]

120. "Consent," as I said. Not intent. That is the difference.

Statutory rape laws utilize an entirely different definition for the lack of consent required to define the crime of rape. It disregards any actual consent and considers a person incapable of giving meaningful consent due to a presumed lack of capacity.

We use the same definition for people lacking in mental capacity as adults.

That is a legal and literal difference from a lack of actual consent.

It's a valid construct, but it is a construct nonetheless. Both the law and society recognize the difference, and it's specious and pretty silly to pretend otherwise.

[msanthrope]

125. Of course the definitions of consent are different...you are talking different classes

of victim. That's an allowance for the protected class that minors are. It is you who are conflating adults and minors, making a legal argument regarding consent that doesn't fly in actual courtrooms.

I won a stat rape case....and it wasn't on consent.

[DirkGently]

130. No. The difference in "consent" is an actual legal distinction.

The law does not conflate statutory rape with ordinary rape because the "bad act" is actually different between the two crimes. Rape requires a showing of a lack of consent. Statutory rape presumes a lack of consent based on age.

The actus rei are different. The law doesn't conflate them because they are not actually the same thing.

[msanthrope]

133. The "bad act" is exactly the same. Put your genitals where they don't

belong, and you go to prison. How we calculate where they don't belong varies according to the victim.

Look...you are really arguing that there are "types" of rape. I make that argument too, as a criminal defense attorney when I am defending people accused of all sorts of things. I get paid for that.

You are doing it here for free. Contemplate that.

[DirkGently]

136. It's not an argument. It's a definition.

We have a concept of a criminal act, which is sexual contact with someone who has not agreed to it.

We have a separate concept that lack of capacity creates a situation in which some are not capable of agreeing, and therefore are presumed by society to be incapable of giving meaningful consent, even if they do give actual consent.

That presumption, however necessarily, is also necessarily artificial. Human capacity does not drastically change based on a single birthday.

It's a valid concept, but it does rely on an entirely artificial presumption regarding a person's capacity. The thought experiment is simple enough for anyone to follow. On one day, a 17-yr-old giving actual consent to sex is a victim of sexual assault because we presume he lacks the capacity to give meaningful consent.

The next day, the same person, now 18, gives the same consent, and no crime has been committed because we presume his consent is now knowing and meaningful. And yet the likelihood that his capacity to give meaningful consent has changed in 24 hours is approximately zero.

We DO need a construct to protect children and adults lacking capacity from exploitation. But it is a fact, and not an "argument" that we do that through a conceit of logic that is inherently arbitrary and vague.

What if this 17-yr-old, having reached his full adult capacity next year, still feels he engaged in consenual acts as he says now? What if a psychologist determined his capacity was unchanged in that time?

You don't see a question as to whether it would then have been just to have treated the other parties exactly as though they had drugged and raped him?

[msanthrope]

140. I'm always stymied by people who seem to understand the concept of

age restrictions when it comes to things like voting, and alcohol, and driving a car, but can't seem to understand that when it comes to minors and sex. I don't think there anything "vague" in the statute that says you can't drink before age 21, and there's nothing remotely vague about the age of consent.

Generally, I advise my clients to cut off their ruminations about people's capacities and stick to a bright line rule of "no fucking minors."

[DirkGently]

146. We don't equate selling beer to minors with rape.

What's odd to me is the willingness to draw an arbitrary age line, across which private adult behavior becomes, not simply illegal, but identical to one of the most horrific crimes on the books.

Drawing the line is okay and necessary. Pretending a drastic literal change in reality occurs on someone's birthday is a bit nutty.

It would be fascinating to see someone hopping back and forth from accusing someone of being a predatory rapist who should go to prison for decades, and having no concern at all, based on learning a birthday occurred the day before.

I can't imagine the functioning adult mind that could work that way.

Happily, the legal system generally does not take that approach, and the near-adult / young-adult cases we see do not result in 30-year sentences most of the time.

[NaturalHigh]

149. I'd say that's good advice.

[DirkGently]

151. Do you have a substantive response to the post?

Statutory rape is literally a different thing from non-statutory rape. It has a different definition under the law, and is prosecuted in a different way, under different facts. It requires an artificial definition of "consent," that presumes certain people can give actual consent that does not count because we presume they lack capacity.

Which is okay. We need a construct to protect the young and others lacking capacity.

But it does not make the two crimes exactly the same thing literally. A presumed lacked of capacity to consent is not literally the same as an actual lack of consent.

No need to be calling people trolls or Akins'. If you want to argue the point, I'm ready to hear you.

Do you contend a 17-yr-old consenting to sex is a victim of predatory child rape exactly like non-statutory rape, but may engage in the same act the next day (having turned 18) and have it considered perfectly acceptable private sexual conduct?



*edited to address the charge that somehow there are not two different terms here. There are. Because there are two different things.

[JTFrog]

153. I believe that rape is rape.

I will make no effort to redefine it to suit your purposes. Especially in a situation where one party has power over the other. I will never ever ever ever agree with you that a presumed lacked of capacity to consent is not literally the same as an actual lack of consent. Minors lack the capacity to consent. End of.

As a rape survivor I am incredibly offended at your attempts to redefine rape.

A minor cannot give consent. Rape. Is. Rape.

[DirkGently]

157. It's the law's definition, not mine.

The law recognizes the literal distinction between presumed lack of capacity to consent and actual lack of consent.

And as you know, who is and is not a minor is something we change regularly. It's a collective guess on our part as to who needs that presumption and who doesn't.

But it is still a guess. We now know 21-yr-olds lack full adult intellectual capacity. Some states think 16 is the right age. Others, 18.

Again, it is a necessary conceit, but there is a literal difference.

[JonLP24]

158. I appreciate your posts

Using logic is very important especially when dealing with laws.

This boy was 1 birthday away from being "not rape".

[DirkGently]

175. Thank you. I worry when we can't discuss

things honestly.

We all know that there is a literal difference between saying we will consider consensual sex to be non-consensual because we presume a lack of capacity to consent and actual lack of consent.

If there really is no difference, then we could make the agent of consent 37 tomorrow, and start throwing 38-yr-olds in prison for rape.

We have an obligation to be honest about what we're doing. We draw lines around the age of consent, and treat a violation of that as we would a rape. But it is not "the same thing."

Capacity to consent versus being exploited does not change based whatever law we write. It is irresponsible and frankly a bit weird to demand we all pretend otherwise.

[hifiguy]

162. Jury results. 0-7 LEAVE IT

Ouch.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Rape is rape. Anyone trying to conflate that issue is just as bad as the GOP trying to do the same. This is insensitive and inappropriate for DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Oct 17, 2014, 08:55 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see that this is insensitive and inappropriate.

Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ridiculous alert. The posted alerted on is respectful and appropriate. LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am voting to leave this alone as I see that DirkGently is having a conversation with another DU'r that while heated and contentious is far different than the person DirkGently is responding to.
This was a legal discussion, and I may disagree with it , but I do not see how this person is writing what he is saying is the same as being a republican. I am voting to leave with serious reservations.

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nothing disruptive, hurtful, rude, over-the-top or otherwise inappropriate.

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster sets forth the appropriate and correct legal distinctions in a civil way. This is a profoundly inappropriate alert. There is NO TOS violation here whatsoever. Let it stand. hifiguy

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

-------

I sign my jury verdicts. This was not added.

[DirkGently]

167. Thanks, hifiguy and jurors.

I am trying to have an actual point here, which may or may not be worthwhile.

But it's not rape apologism or crypto-Republicanism.

I hope my posting history speaks for itself that the "Akins" POV is not my side of the fence, ever. I appreciate the jurors in the DU community noting that.

[msanthrope]

163. "Ordinary rape?" Did you just actually write that? nt

[hifiguy]

166. I do not presume to speak for the poster

but I think that phrase may be an inelegant shorthand for sexual assault that involves overt violence or the threat thereof, or the incapacity of the victim via drugs or booze. Contextually speaking that seems a reasonable interpretation.

[DirkGently]

169. "Non-statutory" if you prefer. Real terms. Real meanings.

We have been over this ground, msanthrope. There is an actual, literal difference between statutory rape and all others.

Again, it's a little strange for any of us to pretend that a presumption of lack of capacity that makes an otherwise legal act illegal is meaningless.

If it was, we wouldn't have the term "statutory rape" in the first place.

[NaturalHigh]

173. Dirk, I see where you are coming from on this.

To me the big deal is that the women were his teachers. I was a teacher, and I firmly believe that is a line that should never be crossed with minor students.

[DirkGently]

176. And I am with you there.

Even adult teachers and adult students presents a problem. Whether it is rape or another kind of inappropriate conduct matters though.

Look, we're all after the same thing. People should not exploit other people. Bosses and employees. Adults and children. The mentally fit and the intellectually challenged.

It's not too hard to make qualitative distinctions when we are doing that though. And adult teacher should probably stay away from an adult student. An adult boss risks becoming a harrasser having a relationship with an adult employee.

My sole point in all of this is that insisting that we lump all of these things together as being the identical horrific crime of an adult preying sexually on an child or anyone assaulting another personally sexually without their consent is dangerous.

I come to this specifically because I believe "rape is rape." I think we all know what it is when it happens. Rape is not a surprise or an ambiguous situation. People know whether they have consent or not. They know whether they are exploiting someone or overriding their will with their own.

I think we threaten the entire integrity of that when we say we can switch around the age of consent however we see fit and create rape where it otherwise would not exist. If we can't acknowledge that much distinction, we lessen our ability to address what we are actually trying to tackle.

[hifiguy]

178. That's the core issue here.

They were his teachers

No one would give a hoot in hell if this kid had had sex with an 18 or 19 YO girlfriend and her friend. It's about the status relation - teachers and students.

[NaturalHigh]

200. Exactly. Thank you.

[Seeking Serenity]

46. It was rape. Period. The word fits perfectly.

And I assume you'd feel just the same with a 16-year-old girl and her 34-year-old male teacher, claiming she wasn't raped. "But I luuuuuv him...." RIGHT???

[MattBaggins]

57. But it's a boy

When adult women abuse a boy it's a "fantasy come true".

And so many asshats claim Rape culture isn't real

[AverageJoe90]

66. And so many actual misogynists are likely calling for these women's heads on a pike.....

and screaming "What about teh menz!?!?!?" from their fucking rooftops.

It happens quite a bit. I've seen it, too.

[MattBaggins]

67. Suuuuuuurrrre

[AverageJoe90]

68. I'm sorry, but I've seen too much of this stuff in action to think otherwise.

And, btw, Matt, just so you understand, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a secret MRA or whatever, okay? I hope you realize that. All I'm saying is, there is a double standard out there, and it's one that harms women exclusively, and is, unfortunately, taken to heart by a substantial portion of this country's citizenry.

[MattBaggins]

69. Well this case isn't harming women

It is hopefully going to be a case of justice for two rapists.

[AverageJoe90]

74. I'll just wait for the evidence.

Because right now, there's no proof, that I know of, that this boy was forced into this whole thing.

[MattBaggins]

76. Force?

What does force have to do with it?

[Iggo]

103. He didn't have to be forced.

The boy was below the age of consent. The women were the boy's teachers.

And so it boils down to this: Two adults fucked a child who was in their care.

[JTFrog]

98. Free money dude. n/t

[cyberswede]

122. Right?

un.be.liev.able.

[Major Hogwash]

48. Maybe someday he will feel better about it all.

But, probably not as good as he felt that first time that both teachers had sex with him!!!!

[gollygee]

50. It doesn't matter if he didn't feel raped

That's how rapists of this sort work. They seduce their victims. And they know they're doing something wrong.

[MattBaggins]

58. I have a feeling CG doesn't understand that concept

[TDale313]

52. Statutory rape is rape...

And by definition cannot be consensual. If he was under the age of consent, particularly given the fact that the two women were teachers and therefore authority figures, means he was in no position to consent, regardless of whether he felt raped.

[Starry Messenger]

60. Children can't consent.

How fucking hard is that for people to get through their thick skulls.

[MattBaggins]

70. Very hard it would seem

[AverageJoe90]

75. The guy was seventeen, not twelve......nt

[Starry Messenger]

104. 17=legally a child.

[ieoeja]

132. 17 is the age of consent. He was 16. Had he been a few months older, it would have been legal.

§80. Felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile
A. Felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile is committed when:
(1) A person who is nineteen years of age or older has sexual intercourse, with consent, with a person who is twelve years of age or older but less than seventeen years of age, when the victim is not the spouse of the offender; or
(2) A person who is seventeen years of age or older has sexual intercourse, with consent, with a person who is twelve years of age or older but less than fifteen years of age, when the victim is not the spouse of the offender; or
(3) A person commits a second or subsequent offense of misdemeanor carnal knowledge of a juvenile, or a person who has been convicted one or more times of violating one or more crimes for which the offender is required to register as a sex offender under R.S. 15:542 commits a first offense of misdemeanor carnal knowledge of a juvenile.
B. As used in this Section, "sexual intercourse" means anal, oral, or vaginal sexual intercourse.
C. Lack of knowledge of the juvenile’s age shall not be a defense. Emission is not necessary, and penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the crime.
D. Whoever commits the crime of felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile shall be fined not more than five thousand dollars, or imprisoned, with or without hard labor, for not more than ten years, or both, provided that the defendant shall not be eligible to have his conviction set aside or his prosecution dismissed in accordance with the provisions of Code of Criminal Procedure Article 893.

[Jenoch]

134. I wonder if there is a law

that makes it illegal for high school teachers in Louisiana to have sexual relations with their students?

[ieoeja]

137. Two *male* teachers where I went to high school married students they impregnated.

I wish all the "if the gender's were reversed" would see this. Two male teachers actually married female students of theirs and continued teaching there for years thereafter. The answer to those posters is, "no, people would *not* change their opinions were the genders reversed."

Nobody gave a shit.

This was in a state which, like most of the United States, sets the age of consent at 16.


DU is far and away the most judgmental and prudish site I waste my time on. Disclaimer: I do not frequent most sites because rabid rightwingers are a hundred times worse than DUers.

I believe the biggest problem with politics is that it is dominated, on both sides, by puritanical zealots.

[Jenoch]

139. At my high school

a 41 year old male teacher got involved with a student and later divorced his wife and married the young girl. The teacher continued to teach at the school until he retired. I guess there was no proof they were involved while she was still a student. They later had two children together.

[NaturalHigh]

143. Maybe nobody cared in the past...

and that was usually true, but it would be an almost sure career-killer now. If the genders were reversed, you can bet that a great many posters here would be up in arms about it and that the media portrayal would be much different. Two male teachers with a female student - come on now. You know there would literally be calls for their castration, even before there was a trial.

[ieoeja]

145. I know a few DUers who meet your description. Your problem is ...

... every single one of them is on here screaming for the heads of these two female teachers right now.

I see fuck-all evidence of this alleged reversal everyone keeps screaming about. The people I see saying it is unethical, but not particularly heinous for a 16 year old male to have sex with two young adult females are the exact same people who say the same thing when the genders are reversed.

[NaturalHigh]

148. Okie dokie...

I guess we'll just have to disagree since the posters that I see in the other threads have even bothered to drop into this one where two female teachers are the alleged criminals. I could give names, but that would be considered a callout.

[JTFrog]

154. No, I don't think you can.

Are the ones you would call out the ones who have pretty much stopped posting on DU altogether because of nonsense posts like this one?

Passive aggressive bullshit.

[NaturalHigh]

155. No, I still see them. Often in fact.

Have a pleasant day.

[Starry Messenger]

194. It isn't legal for teachers to rape minor students.

It would never be legal for teachers to rape minor students. I don't know about this state, but teachers having sex with students, even if they are legal adults, is a firing offense.

In this case, it was illegal, and a "few months" doesn't matter. These two rapists deserve to be punished.

[ieoeja]

195. It's not legal for anyone to rape anyone.

And this incident would not have been rape in 30 states.

I do not believe any state defines sex between a teacher and a student of legally consensual age as rape, sexual misconduct, etc. Many school districts probably do define it as an ethical violation punishable by firing.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that many do not. As I stated in another post, two young male teachers where I went to high school married students of theirs after impregnating them. Continued teaching there for several more decades.

And, of course, these two deserve to be punished. They broke a just law. And I think the judge should consider their positions of authority over the guy when imposing a sentence. They should both probably see some jail time. If not for that position of authority, I would have been okay with a fine and firing for the 24 year old.

[Starry Messenger]

196. Decades=this happened a long long time ago.

Trust me, where I am, and in the now, no one would be impregnating and marrying their students with no consequences.

It is a felony in Texas to have relationships with students as a teacher, even if the student isn't a minor, even if that student is at another school:

https://tcta.org/node/12941

"Sexual contact or indecent exposure with a minor is a felony that requires the perpetrator to register as a sex offender. It also is a felony for a teacher to engage in a sexual relationship with a student, even if that student is of the legal age of consent. This prohibition includes students enrolled in schools where the teacher isn’t employed.

A school district must complete an investigation into allegations of educator misconduct, even if the educator resigns from the school district. If an individual is found to have engaged in sexual conduct or a romantic relationship with a student or minor, regardless of age or enrollment status in the district, the State Board for Educator Certification will permanently revoke that educator’s teaching certificate."

Many other states are not nearly so draconian, but I would support laws forbidding sexual contact between students and k-12 teachers, even if the students are 18, while the student is in high school. Students who turn 18 while still in high school are restricted from many other rights that other 18 year olds have--they are still required to attend school and do not have the right to call themselves out sick, etc. They are treated like minors in every other way.

[NaturalHigh]

198. Oklahoma has a similar law.

We have for a long time.

[AverageJoe90]

72. And there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he was coerced, either, from what I could tell.

In fact, the bragging alone is a sign that indicates he wasn't forced to do this.

BTW, I don't disagree that there were some ethical issues, or that this did technically breach the law. But I just hope that the judge in this case will try to utilize some sense; a couple years' probation, and maybe some counseling, would probably suffice, given what we know now.

Sadly, though, no doubt there's already scores of misogynist idiots, whether self-proclaimed MRAs, or Teabaggers, etc. out there screaming "What about teh menz!?!?" from the fucking rooftops, calling for these women's heads on pikes.....and, many of them probably of the very same type that defended that monster in Montana simply because he was male and an authority figure(and white), and the victim was a girl, and a Latina.

[LittleBlue]

77. Bingo

But mention this obvious truth and the thought crime gestapo will alert.

These sorts of discussions are easier to have on other sites. *awaits snarky comment from the thread policeman*

[LanternWaste]

97. I see... one is 'legitimate rape' and other isn't?

I see... one is 'legitimate rape' and other isn't?

[Gormy Cuss]

144. Statutory rape is rape.

The modifier differentiates it from other forms of rape, but they're all rape. Statutory rape means the state recognizes that the victim is too young to give consent.

[yellowcanine]

177. There are young female students who get crushes on male teachers.

And maybe even would brag about a sexual encounter if it occurred. Does that mean it wasn't rape? The law says it is. Why? Because a minor female cannot consent to sex with an adult male (or female). Sorry, it is rape.

[AverageJoe90]

53. Sad situation all around.

Although I suspect a large number of our resident MRAs, if any are present, are probably going to want to smack me down real hard for this.....to be honest, it doesn't seem likely that this wasn't a consensual relationship.....and if that is indeed the case, that all parties consented to it(perhaps even enthusiastically!).....well....I dunno what else to say.

It does seem like this kid may have just *barely* have gone under the official age of consent(it's 17 over there, and he reached that only a few days after!), just days before it got started. But damn, man, it's so close it might as well not count, IMO. If it has to come down to a sentencing, I really do hope they get off lightly; a couple years' probation would probably suffice, given the circumstances(but then again, I don't have much hope; remember, in Montana, another conservative state, an actual predator basically got a slap on the wrist for actually raping someone).

[MattBaggins]

62. Why would MRA types smack you down for spewing their crap?

It was rape. The women had no business "seducing" this kid.

If a 35 year old priest abused his position and "seduced" a "barely illegal" child would you say the same thing?

How fucking hard is it to comprehend that adults should not cross that line with teens?

It is that fucking simple. If you are an adult control your fucking urges and don't have sex with kids. Is this really that difficult?

[AverageJoe90]

64. "Why would MRA types smack you down for spewing their crap?" You can't be serious.

Maybe you've had a different experience than I have had with MRAs. But I've seen that kind of double standard, described in my initial reply, all too often.

Oh, and here's an example:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2i39a2/threesome_involving_student_male_and_teachers/

Note how the guy who made the Reddit OP has the GALL to make the claim that there's an anti-male double standard. Now, granted, I won't argue against the point of ethical issues being involved, in regards to social conventions and such. And, frankly, I don't have a problem with these two women being let go from their jobs, and getting SOME sort of punishment. It's just that I still remember what happened in Montana, where every single bit of evidence pointed to an actual rape.....and the perp got a fucking slap on the wrist. And the girl he victimized ended up commiting suicide. And there were hardcore MRAs and other disgusting reactionary types defending this monster....this monster, that people put their fucking trust in.

[davidn3600]

80. The judge in Montana broke the law in making that sentence and a different judge was appointed

And female teachers constantly get slaps on the wrists for these types of crimes. That's a fact.

If history is any guide, these two women probably wont do much time at all. So don't worry about it.

[NaturalHigh]

94. I seriously doubt they will do ANY time.

They will lose their teaching licenses (and maybe their marriages), but that's about it.

[Bad Thoughts]

61. He would not be the first to sympathize with his abusers

Indeed, sexual abusers manipulate their victims,twisting their victims emotions to get what they want.

[MattBaggins]

65. Thank you for pointing this out

[Hosnon]

71. Anyone who blames this child better look long and hard

into the mirror, and reevaluate their commitment to a fair and just society.

He was raped by his teachers. Were he a she, the reporting on this would be completely different.

[AverageJoe90]

73. Well.....in my honest opinion.....this kid did nothing wrong. At all. nt

[Jenoch]

119. Who is claiming otherwise?

[AverageJoe90]

188. I didn't say otherwise, though. Not sure why you thought I was accusing somebody. nt

[Jenoch]

193. I have no idea why you made a point

to post that the 16 year old did not do anything wrong.

[NaturalHigh]

121. "The reporting on this would be completely different"...

Yes, to say the least.

[ZombieHorde]

78. The arguments in this thread seem to be about psychology.

I wonder what psychologists around the world would say about this.

[Lancero]

82. Not a psychologist, but this is a prime example of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Maru Kitteh]

83. Rape victims too often blame themselves. I hope he gets the help he needs

and gets the hell away from grandpa too.

[NaturalHigh]

90. Yeah, I was kind of thinking that about the grandpa too.

[chervilant]

87. Survivors of sexual abuse

often feel responsible for their abusers' actions. Survivors often identify with their abusers. And, sadly, parents and other adult family members seldom have the knowledge or skills to help their child(ren), and to not make statements like those that this child's grandfather made.

Clearly, the criminal actions of these teachers are the reasons they are facing time in prison. I hope this child's parents help him understand that his "bragging" did not "ruin the promising careers of two teachers."

[DirkGently]

102. I find the general "take" on this topic in this thread bizarre.

I agree with CG.

I find people's insistence that a near-adult male having relations with young adult females is "exactly the same" as either child sexual assault or rape (non-statutory) very strange.

It really is not the same thing, and it is a dangerously disingenuous game to pretend that it is.

There is a separate issue here with adult authority figures and the teacher / student relationship. I don't think anyone is missing the inappropriateness there. I have no argument with that behavior being punished or banned.

But we are absolutely watering down what sexual assault really means when we try to equate a line we draw the best we can between "children" and "adults" for purposes of lawful consent, and either sexual assault on a non-consenting person or an adult preying on a child. At least when that line is determined by a matter of a few months of age.

I also disagree that the differences between male and female sexuality are cultural bias as some say. Sexuality is the ACTUAL difference between men and women. We don't process things the same way, and male vs. female physicality has real implications when we are talking about assumptions of coercion or assault.

I agree that the "high-five, kid" attitude is off base. But equally off-base is the argument that there is no distinction between a lack of consent we determine by means of our collective "best guess" as to when a child becomes an adult and child abuse or sexual assault on someone who has not given consent at all, legally "valid" or not. The argument that child rape on Tuesday becomes private sexual conduct Wednesday is some kind of weird attempt at reprogramming reality and is not okay.

It is a disservice to the seriousness of the crimes of rape and child abuse to insist on making no distinction between something that, had it happened a few months down the road, would be regarded as the private behavior of consenting adults, and a horrific crime of a abuse and coercion.

There is a distinction. It may or may not be justifiable to treat a 16 or 17-yr-old as though he had no ability to consent, but to not recognize that is a legal distinction we are imposing, not a certain reality, is frankly specious.

We are trying to pick an age where "consent" does not mean "consent," (and that is okay) but it is inherently artificial and vague.

[KittyWampus]

116. Not one but TWO adult women preyed upon a 16 year old BOY. That is rape. See how easy it is?

See how your long, rambling and convoluted attempt at excusing rape is wrong?

Probably not.

[DirkGently]

118. Well, no. It is not legally or literally the same as rape.

Statutory rape is a legal conceit wherein we collectively decide at what age a person is capable of giving meaningful consent. We make that distinction because in cases like this one, actual consent is given, but we presume it is invalid because of the minority of someone involved.

The law recognizes this distinction and has for a long time. An 18-year-old with a 17-yr-old may be excluded from the definition of statutory rape under "Romeo and Juliet" laws recognizing that the relative age of the parties makes the type of coercion presumed under the conceit of statutory rape inapplicable.

It's okay to do that -- we have to have a mechanism for recognizing that children cannot effectively "consent" to sex because of their state of development. At the same time though, the age of consent is a guess. We have moved the age around, mostly upward, over time.

But there is a distinction between a lack of actual consent and lack of consent we consider legally valid. To conflate the two as though they were exactlyl the same is just not possible.

[NaturalHigh]

123. I personally think...

that whenever two TEACHERS are engaged in these activities with a STUDENT, it should be fairly obvious that a crime has taken place.

[DirkGently]

127. That is a valid, but separate point.

Superior / subordinate coercion is another issue from rape altogether. Teachers have been fired, and in some states can be charged with a crime, for sleeping with adult students.

I think that makes sense ethically, but would not agree that we can presume coercion equivalent to sexual assault without something more, like an explicit threat to use that power imbalance.

And I have seen people argue that any power imbalance that suggests the possibility of coercion can and should be treated the same as sexual assault. That's ethically tricky though.

At that point we are talking about exploitation, and while I think we can and should have laws to prevent exploitation (child labor laws, etc.) there is a point at which we cannot protect adults from consenting relationships with other consenting adults on the basis of a presumed power imbalance.

[FiveGoodMen]

142. Thank you!

[JTFrog]

105. Rape is rape.

Some of the replies in this thread read like they came right out of Paul Ryan and Todd Akins playbook.

[cherokeeprogressive]

202. 5-2 leave.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So, rape isn't rape then?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The alerter is correct.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[NaturalHigh]

203. That got an alert?

[cherokeeprogressive]

208. I was surprised as well. Here are the alerter's comments...

"None of the replies in this thread read anything like what those two assholes said about rape. Todd Akins lost much of his republican support with his "legitimate rape" theories. What a disgusting attack on our fellow DUers."

Honestly, I don't remember Paul Ryan saying anything about rape, maybe I just missed it if he did.

Still, I saw nothing at all wrong with the post, and voted to leave it.

[NaturalHigh]

209. I would have voted to leave as well.

The reply wasn't exactly polite, but good grief, how many replies on this board ever are, especially if there is even a hint of a gender issue involved?

[randome]

115. I don't think anyone has the right to tell this kid how he should feel.

Yes, the teachers should face the consequences of their actions, including jail time. And yes, it was sexual abuse as defined by the law. But if he's fine with it, no one should be telling him differently, telling him, in effect, that he should feel simply awful about what happened.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[DirkGently]

124. We're saying a 17-yr-old has no agency.

And we may need that conceit to protect children, because we have to construct a line somewhere.

It is a little strange, though, to see people arguing that a crime based on a socially imposed lack of agency is exactly the same as a sexual assault on child or an adult who has not given consent.

We are saying, "Your consent cannot be counted, because you lack the capacity to fully understand what that means."

Maybe that's valid in this case. But it is a different circumstance from a child with no capacity or an adult being assaulted against their will.

[randome]

129. For the most part, I agree. But the line is drawn and the teachers need to suffer the consequences.

The boy may have been preyed upon but that doesn't necessarily make him a victim. It does make the teachers criminals, though.

Some 16 y/o's are just fine with sex.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[DirkGently]

131. Question is severity of the crime. Are these teachers "exactly the same"

... as the college student who drugs a woman into unconsciousness and assaults her? As the drunken date who thinks "no means yes?"

I see a distinct push to conflate the two, and I think that is dangerous on several levels.

[hifiguy]

179. This is an excellent point, sir.

And there is no similarity whatsoever.

[closeupready]

128. As a gay man, when I was 13, I was popping boners at just anything -

and just about everything. That is generally what happens to males during puberty and in the teen years thereafter - they get frequent erections.

HOWEVER, I would NEVER have consented to intercourse with a woman, and if a female teacher had exploited that biological fact in order to pleasure herself, well I don't want to think about how I'd feel about women today if that had happened, but it wouldn't be something that contributed to my feeling good about being around them in casual situations.

Something like this can seriously fuck (no pun intended) with the mental health of young people who are not ready to approach sexual situations in a healthy way.

[LisaL]

204. OMG. Teenage boy bragged?

These adult women did not think about that prior to doing whatever it is they were accused of doing?

[NaturalHigh]

206. I would think that was pretty predictable.

[True Blue Door]

211. So much laughable, puritanical piety in these comments.

I lost my virginity at age 15 to a prostitute in her 20s. Was I raped?

If those two teachers were by some miracle allowed to teach again, at the same school, what do you think the gender ratio of students signing up for their classes would be? Think the boys would consider them creepy sexual predators and stay away?

LOL

[NaturalHigh]

212. That doesn't change the fact...

that I don't think they should ever be allowed inside a school again, and I damn sure wouldn't want them near my son.

[True Blue Door]

214. That's reasonable.

It's just worth accepting the reality that in most cases like this, the "damage" is theoretical and profoundly ironic.

Among their peers, "victims" like this are seen as mythic heroes and lottery winners. Of course, being a lottery winner has infamous dangers, but the event itself is usually not the problem - unreasonable expectations are.

If I were the kid's father, I'd mostly be worried that he would develop a false view of women that would undermine future relationships.

[NaturalHigh]

215. Well, another thing that concerns me...

and something that I have seen in similar situations, is that these teachers undoubtedly have defenders in the community who will put the blame on the kid and will try to put pressure on him and his family. Believe me, there are assholes who will try to make him and his family out to be the bad guys, especially since one of the teachers is the daughter of a judge and somewhat prominent in the community.

When I was a teacher, I had several teenage students hit on me, and I don't consider myself to be attractive at all. The teacher has all the power and influence. He or she is somewhat of a forbidden fruit because of the societal taboo on such a relationship. A particularly unethical teacher could even threaten the student with grades or disciplinary issues (note that I'm not saying that's what happened in this situation).

We have probably all had fantasies about a teacher at one time or another, but the teachers are supposed to know better.