TWO Adult Female Teachers Prey On A 16 Year Old Boy=Rape

[KittyWampus]

Why any DU'er would try and rationalize that or minimize that is beyond me.

Two adult female teachers luring a 16 year old boy into a sexual encounter can not be considered anything but rape.

It isn't just "inappropriate".

It is rape.

See how easy that is?

And it doesn't matter who initiated the sexual encounter.

It doesn't matter if the victim "enjoyed it".

Teenagers are generally hardwired to push the limits into stupid and dangerous behavior.

Adults are expected to push back.

Failure on an adults part to push back against "inappropriate" and/or ILLEGAL sexual behavior is rape.

ON EDIT- I changed the OP to reflect the fact some DU'ers still want to play games because I said ADULT WOMEN and not TEACHERS. Just because it's legal in some states for adults to rape teenagers, it's still rape.

Just like some states still allow corporal punishment but it's still child abuse.

Just because charges may not be brought in some states doesn't change the fact it's rape. This is actually a prime example of rape culture can be legalized and normalized.

[seabeyond]

1. i perused the thread. men that generally dismiss rape culture ect... where sure to chime up, there

were responses on that thread dismissing the boys experience as rape. and isnt it just obvious the double standard.

the obvious, the point, they were sure to leave out, as they projected the acceptance of this boys rape was that the people that did argue that, ..... were MEN. i did not see a single woman, that would state it rape for a girl, declare it was not rape for a boy.

that type of argument is not only disingenuous, but it is dishonest.

[KittyWampus]

7. I am wondering if there is overlap.

[seabeyond]

19. ohhhh. lol. god yes. lol. ah ha. but, that peeled onion is not to be discussed. lol.

you made me laugh.

yes. it is a bit tiresome when a man that has never supported our girls/women sexualized to the point of rape and, wtf,.... street harassment and rape threats, ect... to rape, dominance/control, ....

steps up on the ox and declare the hypocrisy.... that we on du excuse the rape of the boy and go into "poutage" when discussing the same issue with girls.

i will repeat for clarity. i did not see one woman, that would speak up for a girl, NOT speak up for the boy and address the men that minimized (at the least) the rape of the boy.

to the point of lecturing women what rape is. lol

[DonCoquixote]

42. nods

I live in Deborah LaFave land, so I have been down this road.

And I sincerely believe that if a Woman did say something stupid like "the boy enjoyed it" that she would promptly get her ass chewed, with SB leading the charge.

[seabeyond]

45. more fuggin' lmao, lol. what a lovely morning in clarity. lol. and too true. thanks don. nt

[QuestionAlways]

75. This was wrong ... but

The school began investigating after the student, now 17, began "bragging to other students that he was having a sexual relationship with teachers." He reportedly told investigators the encounter was consensual.

As a male, personally, I would have loved to have gone through the same experience as this boy, when I was 16. I would not feel the same way if I was a female. Society has different sex roles and expectation for each sex. The only thing that was wrong, IMO, was these woman were teachers who were in a position of authority over this boy which mitigates the fact that it was consensual.

[LawDeeDah]

87. If you are a father, and a male maybe you can you address this:

Both boys and girls are very curious sexually, I don't think that is a big surprise for anyone, or I sure hope not.

So if you had a 16 years old girl, curious about sex as all are, and her adult teachers - two male teachers, did this with her, you would okay with that in the same way you seem to be jealous of the boys 'experience'?

This is what you are saying. Sex and curiousity of it is not exclusive to one particular gender - being curious is natural what is unnatural is for adults to use children like this or for adults not to protect all children from this.

[Cal Carpenter]

96. This may be the best post I've seen on this subject on DU. Ever. Kudos.

[spanone]

115. underage...consensual means nothing.

[ProfessorGAC]

76. If No Means No . . .

. . . and it does, then rape is rape since there is a very specific set of definitions around it.

I agree with you. It's either rape or it isn't. I realize there are huge differences between forcible and statutory rape, but it's still against the law.
GAC

[yeoman6987]

2. I am looking forward to the trial

I hope it is very public. I especially want to hear from the 16 year old. Very interested in his testimony. As a public, we have a right to hear the case in my opinion. The jury will do its job. Again the rest of us are fodder on the Internet with zero influence on how the jury will rule.

[msanthrope]

6. It's unlikely to go to trial. They will probably plead out. nt

[H2O Man]

9. Why?

What might you hope to hear from his testimony? (I assume that a minor's testimony in a rape case would not be open to the public; even if it were, I would have zero interest in hearing it.)

[yeoman6987]

12. That's cool

Like the previous poster said, the teachers will probably plead out. Probation for a year and then scrub it from their record. Teaching job in the state gone forever. I am unsure if they would be banned all over America.

[Jenoch]

56. Why should a sexual assault

be 'scrubbed' from their record?

[yeoman6987]

67. Oh many are as part of the plea deal.

Do I think it will in this case? No 100 percent sure.

[Ed Suspicious]

71. State jobs are different , at least in my state,

even the arrest wool forever show up on their criminal background check even if they get the conviction expunged.

[Jenoch]

72. If the two teqchers were male and the victim

female, I am quite sure the attitudes here would be different and I don't think erasing the record of a sexual assault conviction would be considered on these threads.

[CBGLuthier]

30. I once had to listen to a 16 year old girl give testimony about being raped.

Anyone who WANTS to hear that is sick regardless of gender.

[CBGLuthier]

37. Oh man, you really got me scared to death.

Dismissal? OMFG you are hilarious.

[yeoman6987]

39. What are you talking about?

[JaneyVee]

3. 110%

[cyberswede]

4. Sorry - I must have missed the thread...do you have a link?

...though I'm almost afraid to ask.

[pscot]

10. It got hidden

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025610333#post7

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Recent thread (still open):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025676601

[malthaussen]

5. Depends on the age of consent.

16 is legal in many states, although they could be hit with "corrupting the morals of a minor" or something of that nature. The latter is often only a misdemeanor, though. It's interesting that having sex is equated to a corruption of morals.

-- Mal

[KittyWampus]

8. No- it really doesn't. Because teenagers can't "consent" to have sex with their teachers

And teachers can't engage in sex with their pupils.

And even if they weren't teachers… they are still adults whom we expect to hold the line against teenage precociousness.

[malthaussen]

11. Then it's one of those power-relation questions,

... like a boss having sex with his employee. But in that case, the age of the kid makes no difference.

Incidentally, in your OP you make no note of the women being teachers. You might want to include that information, or a link to the original thread.

-- Mal

[KittyWampus]

13. I edited my statement right before your reply > adult v. teenager is a power-relation situation.

But I did edit my OP> Thanks.

[malthaussen]

22. Again, only if the age of consent is not 16 (or lower)

There are two things going on here, adults engaging in sex with a minor, and teachers engaging in sex with a student. The latter may be an abuse of power, the former may be straight-up statutory rape. I don't agree that adult/teenager is a de facto power relation. Such a relation only comes into play if one individual has some means of retribution against another for not following his wishes.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

26. mentally, intellectually, there is a difference between 12, 13, 14 and a 17 yr old.

that can be discussed.

as a parent of a 17 and 19 yr old, i will say. he still gets protection as a child, and thank you society, while he strugles thru adult choices, figuring it all out.

that is the point. that is what makes it rape, whether boy or girl (i never use the term man or woman (to be clear, lol) with someone under 18. even my kids. they are well aware, boy then adult. they do not even get man/woman yet. it makes them a clear line to see boundary.), consent, seduced, coerced, .... under 18, ... and considering individual state law.... the law is the law. adults must not put a toe over. period. that is learning what an adult does. that is where these women failed. that is why the boy will/should be protected. that simple.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

38. The physical changes in the brain continue til 21 or 22.

So the choice of '18' is still somewhat arbitrary. Yes, it's legally rape, thanks to that arbitrary choice. But I don't think there's really that much difference between a 17 year old male or a 19 year old male in that same situation, other than that specific arbitrary legal choice.

So yes, it's legally rape, but at the same time, a lot of men who would have engaged in the same behaviour at the time if they'd been in that kid's situation are going to shrug a bit.

I haven't heard any of the details, so I don't know who 'seduced or coerced' whom. If the boy 'groomed' the teachers or the reverse. We've seen plenty of underage murderers and rapists, so I don't instantly assume that the two women were the 'predators' in this case. I do assume that they have very poor judgment.

[seabeyond]

46. there absolutely a difference between 17 and 19 in experience. just a mere two years. one with

foot in child, one in adult, ..... per the law.

that being said. i also expressed a scenario below i believe, where i would see an abuse toward my 19 yr old son, in an university environment. legal? maybe. abuse, ya.... potential.

[malthaussen]

40. But of course, dear Sea.

And there are also 14 year olds (hell, probably 12 year olds somewhere) who are more responsible and able to understand adulthood than some 32 year olds. So an arbitrary limit is established -- which varies from state to state. I've always considered that sexual intercourse is one of those things that varies hugely by case, but law cannot take that into account. Louisiana has one of the weirdest AoC situations going, which makes this case particularly interesting from a legal standpoint.

The power-relation issue, OTOH, isn't a legal one (at least in LA, as far as I know). There is always an assumption in these kinds of situations that coercion of some kind has been employed, subliminal if in no other way. It may be so, but it is another situation that is bound to vary on a case-by-case basis. In general, though, a teacher of minor children (at least) shouldn't be fooling around with said children. But that is where the question of whether such conduct is "appropriate" or "criminal" arises. The OP appears to take the position that sex of an adult with a minor is ipso facto criminal behavior, regardless of what statute might say. As it happens, I think that's a too-extreme position, but I'll admit to being buggered as to how we as a society can effectively take into account all the variables inherent in such a relationship. One thing is certain, however, and that is that laws and codes of conduct are social, not natural phenomena. What's unlawful today may be lawful tomorrow. So I'm a bit wary of "moral" outrage over a social issue.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

48. i am going ot stop reading right here. nope. no. and 40 yr old men use this as a defense. no.

and judges make rulings and sentencing from this argument. no.

14 year olds (hell, probably 12 year olds somewhere) who are more responsible and able to understand adulthood than some 32 year olds.

no. i will continue to read. but, there is no way shape or form any 14 yr old, or hell, 12 yr old, has the experience of a 40 yr old. they may be responsible thinking children. i had two. all my nieces and nephews. and they were still 12 and 14.

[malthaussen]

53. Ah, but I didn't say "experience," Sea.

Anyway, not really germane to my point, so you may consider it withdrawn if you wish. In different terms, my point was that law must be unified, and cannot take the bell-curve into account. But since it cannot take the bell-curve into account, it must also be necessarily arbitrary.

-- Mal

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

68. I think one of your lines nails the problem -

but I'll admit to being buggered as to how we as a society can effectively take into account all the variables inherent in such a relationship.

And as a result, we basically don't. We set these semi-arbitrary limits exactly because it would consume far vaster court resources if we truly were to try to deal with complex relationship situations on a case by case basis. As well as how our 'precedent' setup works, in which case you'd have lawyers all over pointing to cases in which leniency was given as precedents to try and get hardcore predators off because somebody who simply was in love but stupid got a lenient sentence.

When I was in high school, one of my teachers was a guy who had married his extremely young student/former student as a teenager. Today, he would have been labeled a sexual predator for life, but he entered into a monogamous, loving relationship that lasted decades. Just with someone that society says he shouldn't have. I think that's a lot different than, for instance, someone who serially grooms and sleeps with multiple underage victims.

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. If the issue is maturity and brain development...

... the double standard should work the other way since girls mature mentally at a younger age.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. I must have missed another 300 post thread, but...

this probably sums it up.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. In 30 US states, and many other countries, it wouldn't be; age of consent there is 16

(NB - "it wouldn't be" referred to the original OP which just referred to 'adult women', not 'teachers')

And in Louisiana, where the case under current discussion happened, offences of rape carry sentences from up to 25 years to the death penalty; the offence under discussion is "felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile" and carries a sentence up to 10 years. There may be a separate law for those in positions of trust, and it's possible that carries a higher penalty (the Daily Mail said they could be jailed up to seventeen and a half years, but I don't know if that's for just one conviction, for multiple ones running in sequence), but I doubt that will call it rape.

http://www.brstar.org/#!louisiana-sex-crime-statutes/c1np0

It's illegal, it's immoral, but not necessarily rape.

[KittyWampus]

18. In many states corporal punishment in school is legal. It's still child abuse.

That said, I edited my OP.

But thanks for helping me clarify that.

Because just because some states allow adults to rape teenagers doesn't it should be called anything but rape.

Just like teachers paddling children should be called anything but child abuse.

[Xithras]

62. Do you think it's rape when two 16 year old teenagers sleep with each other?

If a 16 year old boy willingly chooses to insert his penis into a vagina, there is no fundamental difference between a 16 year old vagina and a 26 year old vagina. Age of consent laws exist solely to protect teenagers from potential power imbalances in relationships and to reduce teenage pregnancy rates. Legally, there is no question that a 16 year old in Washington is capable of consenting to sexual activity with a 26 year old. Society has chosen to ban that kind of sexual activity not because sex is inherently harmful for a 16 year old, but because the potential for abuse is too high to tolerate. I happen to agree with that prohibition, but there is a huge difference between "rape" and "sex that is prohibited by law". Until Lawrence v. Texas, 14 states had laws making sodomy illegal too. Legally, gay sex was rape in those states, because nobody could consent to that kind of activity.

That's the real difference between consent laws and corporal punishment. If an adult strikes a child with a belt, that strike is always painful and causes harm. If an adult has consensual sex with a 16 year old, it is not inherently harmful, but society has decided that it has the potential to be abusive or offensive.

Here is California, by the way, there are no Romeo & Juliet laws on the books, and our age of consent in 18. If you are under 18, you cannot consent to sex with anybody. That makes me, and everyone else in the state who had sex in high school, both a rapist and a rape victim. Under our laws, sex with anyone under 18 is ALWAYS rape, because consent can never be legally granted.

Most Californians realize that the law is a bit silly on that point. Rape is not always rape, even when the law says it is.

[Adrahil]

116. Hmmm... So an 18 year having sex with a 17 year old...

Whaddya think?

I think this case is pretty clear, but I don't think it's that cut and dried in general.

[ieoeja]

16. It is perfectly legal in one-third of the United States.

17 is legal in another third. Only about one-third of the United States sets the age of consent at 18.

See how hard the truth is?

[KittyWampus]

21. Corporal punishment is also legal in some states- it's still child abuse.

But I did change the OP because some DU'ers still want to muddy the water.

[Bad Thoughts]

24. The individual states differ by degrees, but they all...

... outlaw sexual relations between adults and minors around roughly the same time. Some states may be more lax with its laws in many areas, and there might be dangerous and costly consequences to such laxity to both individuals and the state.

[KingCharlemagne]

25. IANAL but it strikes me as weird that something as fundamental

as the age when one reaches adulthood is left to individual states' discretion. Why would a 17-year-old in one state be considered an 'adult' but in other states still be considered a 'child'?

Maybe some of the attorneys reading this thread can chime in. I wouldn't even know where to start in trying to find an answer to my question.

[marym625]

52. What is worse

Is the States that will charge a child as an adult when committing a crime. I have never understood how one State can say a 17 year old is not capable of making the decision to have sex but can be charged with a capital offense.

[KingCharlemagne]

55. Wow, I had not even considered that anomaly until just now. Just another

weird lacuna in the patchwork quilt of laws and legal theories.

[ieoeja]

73. A guy from Hong Kong and I were arrested for underage possession of alcohol in college.

He had been drinking legally since 16. I technically had an honorable discharge from the military and had held a job for years. When they started reading us our rights, we couldn't help ourselves.

We started laughing.

Fortunately, the cops ended up joining in the laughter at how silly the whole thing was and decided to let us go.

[marym625]

77. I don't know I would call it weird.

Wrong for sure.

I think about it every time I hear anything about a kid being charged as an adult, an 18 year old being charged with statutory rape for being with their 16 or 17 year old bf/gf. Anything like that. The laws are stacked against kids more than people want to realize.

[KingCharlemagne]

78. That's a damned good point and I apologize if I seemed blase about it. For me, there

are so many problems with our current legal system and its behavior towards the poor, people of color and youth that 'wrong' doesn't even begin to cover it. Dare I suggest 'criminal'?

[marym625]

79. yes, you can dare. More than dare. Do it!

Absolutely no need to apologize. I didn't mean anything against you or what you said. I just really hate our criminal justice system.

The things that are going on in this country with law enforcement and those that are supposed to protect us are criminal. Couldn't agree more.

[Xithras]

59. Yep. Which is why we have the infamous Lake Tahoe scenario.

If a 25 year old man and a 16 year old girl stay at the Lake Tahoe Resort in South Lake Tahoe and sleep together, the sex is a felony that will get him imprisoned for years and force him to register as a sex offender for life. If they rent a hotel room at Harrahs, less than 75 feet away on the other side of Stateline Avenue, what they have done wouldn't even raise any eyebrows because it's perfectly legal.

The ability of a young person to consent to sex is determined by an arbitrary and imaginary line down the middle of a poorly paved street.

[marym625]

80. The maturity level

Of any teen is as individual as a finger print. What one 15 year old may be able to maturely decide about one part of their life can completely differ for another part. All with the same teen.

You give a great example of how arbitrary the laws of our nation are.

[Xithras]

85. And that's exactly why so many states have made it illegal.

I happen to agree with age of consent laws, as arbitrary and fickle as they may be. One 15 year old may be more than capable of consenting to sex. Another 15 year old may still be years away from having the mental maturity to engage in sexual activity. It's precisely that kind of unpredictability that drove the adoption of these laws. Even if 80% of 16 year olds are just fine having sex with anyone they want, the world is full of sickos who will pursue and coerce the other 20% who aren't into doing things they don't want to do. In order to protect that 20%, many states (including my own) simply say "No sex until you're 18".

Is it fair to the 80%? Probably not, but the exact same arguments could probably be made for joining the military, or drinking alcohol, or smoking, or getting credit cards. Even if most are fine with it, we have to draw a line somewhere in order to protect the ones who aren't.

[marym625]

89. I am not saying I don't agree with the law

Though the exceptions should be more prominent and laid out better. For instance, a young couple dating for a year or so, with 2 years difference in age, shouldn't suddenly be illegal when the older of the 2 turns 18.

My problem with the laws is they are decidedly not old enough to make a decision about sex but can be tried as an adult. That's just wrong

[intaglio]

20. Too many people believe in fantasies and bad 1960s porn

A teacher has a responsibility to guide a student, not suborn them into sexual encounters whatever the age of the student concerned.

[KingCharlemagne]

28. Good point. Assuming what is alleged here is true, it so profoundly violates professional

ethics at such a deep level that the semantic and ontological debate over what is and isn't 'rape' seems almost beside the point.

It's the disparate power relationship between teacher and student that makes it rape, imo, and not the age of the perps or their victim.

[seabeyond]

32. i know, with who my 19 yr old son is, all the work in making good adult decisions,

in a his stressed/competitive university situation. if he had a woman a couple decades older, use grades, his learning, his ability to excel in a manipulative fashion with him by playing with his sexuality, from years of experience on her part, power and control....

i would be thoroughly ticked and in that office, at the very least.

ok. all conditions evaluated.

the potential for abuse in power, and experience is there. even with our older teens.

we cannot always shelter. we can always call it what it is.

[pscot]

23. This may be "rape" according to statute

But the boy involved obviously did not see it that way since he bragged about the encounter. Criminalizing consensual sex is just a bad idea. Unless this happened in school, it's nobody's business but the participants.

[Jenoch]

29. Would you have the

same attitude if the teachers were male and they double teamed a 16 year old girl?

[pscot]

43. Probably not

There is a double standard, based on the perceived degree of injury. At the very least, a woman is more likely to be damaged socially if it becomes publically known. The degree of mental stress may or may not be greater. Making hard and fast rules about sex is tricky. I do think that people are responsible for the choices they make, and that responsibility begins early on. If you screw up, you're likely to suffer.

[Lancero]

64. Males can be just as traumatized by rape as females.

And the denial of such is a prime example of rape culture.

For the longest time, female victims were afraid of speaking out over what happened to them. More are willing to speak out, but society still looks down on them. For men, many are still afraid to speak out because society looks down on them - perhaps even moreso then it does women - on being of rape. And many deny that they can in fact be raped - You'll see it a lot in the topics, with all the claims of 'it's not rape, he liked it!'.

I say that society looks down more on them then women because societies view on female victims is slowing changing for the better, yet for male victims it's still the same. You can see it even on this site, with how many people here who are screaming out that the boy wasn't raped, or that what happened to him wasn't 'actual rape'. (Note, I'm not saying that we don't have people here who post the same about female victims, I've seen such posts, but the majority of those posts are quickly removed and the posters banned. This isn't true for male victims, which is my point.)

This is a old episode, but most of what's brought up is still valid today when it comes to male victims of rape.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629717/

[OnlinePoker]

82. I waited until 2 years ago to tell anyone.

I'm male and was 50 at the time. I had, according to my therapist, been suffering from PTSD for my adult life, the rape happening when I was 15. It definitely screwed up my life's direction.

[LanternWaste]

47. Another post directly implying a difference between rape and 'legitimate' rape.

Another post directly implying a difference between rape and 'legitimate' rape. sheesh.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Either we believe in equality or we do not.

If 16 year old boys and 35 year old female teachers are a peer relationship, either he should be able to vote or she shouldn't be allowed to teach.

I'm sure there are plenty of girls who enjoy the sex they had with adult men, but it's still not right.

[riqster]

27. Kick for the truth. Kids do stupid things, adults should know better.

And if the law calls it a crime, it's a crime.

Nice OP, thanks.

[hueymahl]

31. Sorry, it is not that black and white

This case may be rape. Not all cases like this are rape.

I'm a man, and I was 16 once. It was a long time ago, but I sure as hell remember it.

Two hot women want to have sex with me? That is not rape. That is my 16 yo fantasy.

Again, this case may be rape. Another case may not. I respect your sincerely held position, but I also respectfully disagree that all cases are rape. There are nuances.

[seabeyond]

34. and you can slip in. i am a woman. i was 16 once. it was a long time ago, but i sure as hell

remember it.

two hot men want to have sex with me? 16 yr old fantasy.

THAT... is not the point. that is not the law. it is that black and white.

[hueymahl]

41. I acknowledge that it is against the law

No doubt about that, at least in that state.

But that was not your point. Your point was that it was rape, always, forever, regardless of the law. That is what I disagree with.

[seabeyond]

49. i thinking you are assuming i wrote the OP. i am not the person that wrote the OP. nt

[LawDeeDah]

103. so you are saying having sex with minors or kids in your charge is not rape? what ARE you saying?

[hueymahl]

119. I'm saying its Malum Prohibitum, not Malum Per Se

[Logical]

99. So no lower limit on the age for you? Wow, you are scary! nt

[Schema Thing]

33. My daughter was having sex at 16 and it was 100% consensual.

although in some states it would not be "legally" consensual. That does not make the young man she was involved with a bad person nor a "criminal" except in the most legalistic sense of the word, in some states.

[Logical]

100. Are you missing the teacher part? Or just don't give a shit? Nt

[dilby]

44. The US needs to have a firm standard on this.

Some states it's 16, some 17 and some 18. This kid was considered raped in his state but in another state it would have been legal minus it being teachers. The other issue I have is in some states if two kids are sexually active at 17 and one turns 18 then it's rape, kind of stupid if you ask me.

Either way in this kids case laws were broken by people who were supposed to be looking out for him and the adults knew they were breaking the law. The kid may not think he was raped but the adult knew it was rape.

[thesquanderer]

50. It's not as simple as "rape is rape"

I agree with many of the other posts here. There are two definitions of rape. One is the act of forcing yourself on someone against their will. That is always wrong. The other is a legal definition of what constitutes appropriate sexual behavior, which various from culture to culture, and as has been mentioned, even in our own country, from state to state. And sometimes the law is imperfect, because the law requires black and white lines to be drawn over human behaviors that are gray. And sometimes lines get drawn in somewhat arbitrary places. The law must treat every 16 year old as they have determined a 16 year old is to be treated, even though 16 year olds themselves vary a lot in their maturity (or even the same 16 year old can be different the day after his/her 16th birthday than the day before his/her 17th). Laws are also influenced by things like religious or other moral preconceptions that categorize things into right and wrong regardless of whether everyone would agree that actual harm is done. Simply, things aren't that simple.

So when you say "Just because charges may not be brought in some states doesn't change the fact it's rape" -- well, if the laws of a particular state say that a particular activity is not rape, then indeed, legally it is not rape. Whether it is rape in the non-legal sense depends on whether you believe the activity was consensual. You can say that nothing sexual that a 16 year old does can possibly be consensual, even if they say it is. That may be some people's judgment, but not everyone's.

Now, the fact that a teacher is also in a position of power and can affect the student's grades is another issue, and a serious one, as are similar issues between employers and employees. But that's a whole other conversation than one of whether sex with a 16 year old is or is not automatically rape.

[Silent3]

121. I think a lot of people have reacted to the real and terrible history of how many rape victims...

Last edited Sun Oct 19, 2014, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

...have been (and sometimes still are) treated by society and by the law by deciding that the only solution to prevent such abuses is to overcompensate and oversimplify, set the definition of "rape" to include any sexual contact whatsoever where there is the slightest doubt of utterly clear, unimpaired and totally informed adult consent, set strict, rigid, and unyielding standards accordingly, and abolish/deny any gray areas or degrees of magnitude -- hence "rape is rape".

This is more than just a tautology, of course. It says that once any act has crossed over this strictly delineated line in the sand there can be no legitimate distinctions made between that act and any other act which has also crossed the line. This is because, if you admit to the idea that crime A is worse than crime B, then you're also saying B isn't as bad as A, and as soon as you say "not as bad as" you are (apparently) enabling and excusing and condoning. The "clear" solution is to deny any differences in seriousness or harm at all.

Anyone questioning of this approach, in any way, must be viewed as "supporting rape culture".

Either get on board with this program, or you're just the same as the people who would dismiss a violent knife-point rape because of the way a woman was dressed. There is no in between.

[cali]

51. You should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Harmful-Minors-Perils-Protecting-Children/dp/1560255161

[cali]

54. Horseshit to say that just because it's legal ... it's still rape. It is not legally rape

and I'd argue that it isn't invariably morally wrong either. I'm so sick of the crap about how all sexual activity between teenagers and adults is rape. Yes, it's clearly wrong for anyone in a position of authority to have sex with a teenager, but 16 is not a child. Not quite an adult either, but not a child.

[JohnnyRingo]

57. They caught these teachers because the boy was bragging about getting raped.

It seems he was so traumatized by the rape that he couldn't wait to tell his buddies what happened, and word got around fast until a teacher overheard. I hope his friends offered him the comfort and understanding deserving such a child victim. I bet he got a lot of sympathetic pats on the back from other teen boys who imagined themselves in his frightful position.

Having said that, these teachers need appropriate punishment and a permanent end to their teaching careers.

[LawDeeDah]

101. I hope some day you get a permanent end to your way of thinking.

[JohnnyRingo]

111. ...and I hope that one day you gain the ability...

...to see in shades other than black and white.

It's impossible to take this OP seriously. In it the poster claims without compromise that this boy is a victim of rape deserving the same level of concern as a young girl or boy who is forced into unwanted sex either through violence or deceit. That cheapens the meaning of rape the same as when someone compares every social injustice to the holocaust.

Rape is not sex, it's a hate crime. These teachers imbibed in taboo sex and deserve appropriate punishment, but I'm sure they didn't do it to humiliate, intimidate, or because they despised men in general. None of that makes any sense in this case, and I'm sure this boy doesn't need counseling along the same lines as a young girl who is knocked down under the bleachers at a high school football game and raped by two adult men. His biggest problem in the near future will be keeping his ego in check with his peers. I'm sure many will come to resent him.

Any man who tells you that he didn't have a sexual fantasy for at least one of his HS teachers is either dishonest or he went to a Catholic school, and even then... We trust our educators to not allow kids to live out their sexual fantasies with them, much like my parents trusted Barbara Eden not to meet me dressed in her harem costume and grant me three wishes. If that "rape" had happened to a 17 year old me, I'd still be bragging about it today. I'd also have a million dollars and an Aston Martin DB5 like James Bond.

Save your pity, both for me and for this young "victim" of rape.

[ismnotwasm]

58. Yes it is.nt

[tularetom]

60. OK, it was rape and the two teachers are sexual predators

I'll willingly concede that.

But why are so many people here horrified at the idea that the kid may have been a willing participant in the reindeer games. He bragged to his buddies about the sexual encounters and expressed remorse for ratting out the women.

Shame on him for not feeling like a "victim".

[davidthegnome]

61. Hmm

I was sixteen my first time - with a woman in her early twenties. I'm fairly sure that that's illegal. I wasn't in school at the time, was living at home with my parents, working on that grand GED education.... in retrospect, for a variety of reasons, I wish I had waited. One thing that did not occur to my young mind to wander was why a woman in her early twenties wanted anything to do with a sixteen year old boy. I was irresponsible, immature - and in no way ready for the consequences of a sexual relationship with a grown woman.

Yet, personally, looking back, I have never considered it as rape. As a young boy, I suffered abuse at the hands of two very sick men. Without going into detail, the difference between that, and "losing my virginity" at 16, is pretty huge. I believe the age of consent in Maine is 16 - but that your partner can only be a certain number of years older. Legally, it may well have been considered rape.

What it finally comes down to though, for me... is the question of whether I, as now an adult male... could conceive of such a thing. I can't. I could not at twenty one and I cannot now. Sixteen years old is not old enough for an adult. What happens if pregnancy occurs (as it did in my case)? What if the sixteen year old in question simply had a crush on you and you took advantage of a much younger person? It is not just the reaction of society we should consider, but our own personal principles. Not just the legality of such a thing... but, the (lack of) responsibility and forethought in such a situation.

Yes, regardless of the genders of the people in question, rape is rape. To take advantage of the young, particularly in a society where they do not (typically) have the means, responsibility, or maturity to support themselves, or a family, or to manage the many possible consequences of a sexual relationship. Someone who is still swimming in that sea of raging hormones is not yet an adult.

Yes, criminal charges should be brought. Gender should make no difference here.

[Fearless]

65. Legally speaking it appears to be sexal misconduct

Statutory rape only applies under the age of consent. Right or wrong, that is the law. Ethically speaking it is misconduct because of the impact the power roles play on the situation.

[d_b]

66. That poor boy

He must be traumatized

[MannyGoldstein]

69. Wouldn't it be nice if today's DU could sustain

a reasonable discussion of this subject?

[Comrade Grumpy]

70. That would be nice, but it doesn't appear to be possible.

Righteous black-and-white pronouncements and tautologies seem to be the order of the day.

And don't dare question them.

[JohnnyRingo]

81. I didn't think the OP was looking for a "discussion" of the subject.

As I reread the post, it appears to be a an uncompromising statement that rape is rape and must be viewed equally in each case regardless of any unique circumstances. Painting rape over every case of underage sex with a wide brush of indignation invites a difference of opinion, not to be confused with unreasonable discussion.

Here's a point of discussion:

My girlfriend's neighbor was "raped" by her high school history teacher who was nearly 15 years older than her. These so called rapes continued throughout her senior year and even beyond graduation. I'm sure these sexual assaults were a big part of their honeymoon the following year.

The three daughters they share are living evidence that the rapes went on for years to come, and now with their youngest girl finally beginning college this past spring, and in what must be the most bizarre case of Stockholm Syndrome in history, I imagine there's a good chance that he still rapes her on occasion, though at his age he probably forces her to pick up his prescription of Viagra first. Of course he's no longer a teacher, he's nearing retirement as head principal at a high school just south of Cleveland.

I think it's doubtful that she'll ever press charges, but rape is rape without exception, and that's the end of any reasonable discussion, right? Personally, I strongly suspect it was consensual throughout their 25 or so years together, but I don't want to sound unreasonable.

[Doctor_J]

106. I'm not sure of the purpose of this second thread

except to further call out the evil bastards who dared to challenge the prevailing wisdom in the original.

[moriah]

74. It's illegal in my state, just not called rape.

Sexual assault in the First Degree, I believe.

To be rape, it'd have to be a 13 year old, or up to 18 if the perp is a relative. SA in the 1st covers people in positions of trust and authority over the victim who aren't family members up until the victim's 18th birthday.

[LawDeeDah]

83. Agree! These comments of 'lucky boy'

makes me sick to my stomach. Big he man macho crap talk makes me sick.

I couldn't look at that other thread in entirety because I KNOW stuff that makes me sick would be there.

This was a Child. Adults should not do this to children. What the fucking hell is the matter with people?

[IVoteDFL]

84. Why label someone a victim who doesn't identify as such?

Obviously it was an incredibly stupid move on the teacher's part and it is their own fault if they are "ruined" for it.

That said, it appears to be consensual. I've had relationships (and sex) with much older people from the time I was 15 on, and I've also been molested by a family member into adulthood. Based on my own experience, which no doubt is different from most, I think Statutory Rape is stupid when applied to teenagers. Potentially the person I was in love with could have gone to prison for having a girlfriend 8 years younger than him, but after I turned 18 nobody gave a crap if I was being molested by an 80 year old drunk completely 100% against my will.

At almost 30 years old now, I still don't regret any of the twenty somethings I hooked up with as a teen. I can't even begin to explain the difference between having consensual sex with an adult and having something done to you against your will. That is why I wont label him a rape victim unless he that is his experience, and at this time it doesn't appear to be how he feels.

If the teen in question was a female who did not feel victimized, I can say that I would absolutely feel the same way, maybe even stronger. Girls are so often told that their experiences aren't relevant, female sexuality is shushed, and we are treated like a feeble minded gnomes. Guess what? Teenage girls like sex just as much as teenage boys.

[alp227]

92. Because...RAPE IS RAPE.

No debate, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you oppose rape, you should oppose what those teachers did. End of story.

[Comrade Grumpy]

97. Absolutism and tautologies. Does not a cogent argument make.

And no true Scotsman would disagree with you.

[Schema Thing]

108. But what they didn't pointedly IS NOT rape.

They had consensual sex with a 16 y/o. They should lose their jobs and be sanctioned from teaching.



But you make a mockery of rape by lumping all misconduct into one word, and treating it all the same. As if this young man has been harmed in the way that a person who was forced to submit to sex is harmed.

[Comrade Grumpy]

113. Careful. I got a post hidden on a related thread for saying basically the same thing.

I'm not too fond of the self-righteous, censorious types who pull that shit. I expressed a viewpoint they didn't like, so they tried to kill it. I call that chickenshit.

[alp227]

114. He was raped, because he could NOT give informed, honest consent to sex with his teachers,

given that teachers = authority figures, so much their sex is nearly like child abuse or incest. It may sound disturbing but it's the TRUTH.

[kwassa]

120. I was about that age when I had sex with an older authority figure.

I was sixteen. She was a 21-year-old college student who worked as an assistant director at a ....

get this ...

church youth group.

A very liberal church, but church, nonetheless.

I did not feel raped. I loved it, actually.

[marions ghost]

90. These teachers are sex offenders

--whatever the kid says about it.

bad teachers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. The double standard is an interesting phenomenon.

16 year old boy with adult female teachers = lucky kid
16 year old girl with adult female teachers = scandalous! tell me more!... maybe firing and counseling is appropriate
16 year old girl with adult male teachers = 20 years for rape
16 year old boy with adult male teachers = death penalty, goddammit. Unless you're a priest.

A combination of several attitudes are responsible for it, i.e.;
Women aren't as responsible and culpable for their actions as men are (See Marissa Alexander).
Society has a responsibility to protect the purity of girls, while boys who don't have sex by 18 are damaged goods. If a woman were cast in the leading role of The 40 year old Virgin, it would have been a very different movie.
The awful shit that happens to boys is what makes them men, because manhood is about bruises and scars.
We explicitly say that girls are more mature than boys at a given age, but implicitly we treat young boys and their female teachers as peers and that relationships between them are not exploitive. In fact, I submit that we often treat "relationships" between these boys and their adult rapists as less suspect than we do relationships between young men and women of the same age.

[seaglass]

94. A classmate of my son's - as in the same class - was sexually molested by his female teacher when

he was 12 yo. No one thought it was appropriate. No parents - mothers or fathers - thought it was something to joke about. The boy became a pariah, the teacher was convicted, spent 5 years in jail and is a registered sex offender.

Must suck to live in your world.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. The victim is a pariah?

Your post is supposed to be an argument that the double standard doesn't exist?

[seaglass]

117. I am telling you what the reality was because I know what happened. No one thought

the boy was a lucky kid. I am not making an argument against a double standard, I don't believe your post is reality. Are you serious that you don't know how victims, males and females are treated by their peers when they go up against someone who is well-liked or respected - a teacher, a member of the football team, whomever?

[former9thward]

95. Is is not rape.

The age of consent is 16 in 31 states. That is the majority.

[Jamaal510]

98. Those two teachers

are sick in the head. They have to be if they go and sacrifice their jobs and freedom just to be with some 16 year old. Why sleep with a minor, anyway, especially when there are tons of grown men out there eager for some sex? They could've easily found somebody around their age and still have their jobs!

[ohnoyoudidnt]

102. There are a couple of teachers I would have like to have had when I was 16.

Legally, it would be considered statutory rape in some states. But would be nowhere near forcible rape.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. Here's another interesting insight on the double standard.

As your post illustrates, If a 16 year old boy consents, it shouldn't be against the law. Compare this attitude with teen prostitution or porn for instance. In that case, the wishes of the victims are completely irrelevant; it's exploitive of her and therefore illegal.

[LawDeeDah]

112. 'forcible rape' is that really used seriously now?

this is another way to say 'legitimate rape' - what the hellllllll.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

122. I was only trying to make a distinction between

Consensual and non-consensual. Age is the issue and a tricky one. Obviously some people are too young and immature to really consent. I was just presenting how my perspective at that age would have been. I probably should have stayed out of this thread, but I thought I would try to elaborate on my response.

[IronLionZion]

104. It's the wrong R word

It will always be the Responsibility of the adults to say no to sex with a minor or a student, always. It's not about the consent or who enjoyed it or whatever. Teachers should always say no to sex with students.

There have been many bad relationships that have started out with fun consensual sex, for example, until things got out of hand. Think about that. As if a 16 year old boy knows any better or thinks about consequences. One consequence that people rarely think about is that young males could easily be manipulated through sex. As in, an adult woman can make a young male do just about anything she wants by offering sex, and that includes horrible things that will ruin his life forever.

[Threedifferentones]

105. From a legal standpoint, undoubtedly so...in America.

In many other countries the age of consent is 16. Countries like Germany, the UK, Switzerland, Canda, etc. In China it is 14, in Sweden and Denmark it is 15.

Ethically it is a grey area. I think it is gross for a 50 year old to pursue an 18 year old, but should it be a crime? The age is obviously arbitrary, at some point people have to make their own decisions.

I do not see how a 50 year old pursuing an 18 or 20 year old is so much better than a 16 year old, and clearly a lot of other people agree with me because so many nations have an age of consent lower than 18.

Do you really believe the people of these otherwise civilized nations are creating a giant "rape culture" by allowing people under the age of 18 to consent? I just do not see how turning 18 magically makes sex not rape in an ETHICAL sense.

Obviously, the law has to draw a line somewhere, and 18 is fine with me. So, put those two teachers in jail, they knew the rule when they broke it.

But, I do not see someone who seduces a 16 year old the same way I would see someone who drugged a woman's drink or molests a prepubescent child. It is just not the same, like at all, and using the same word for it, rape, seems to do a disservice to people who actually could not consent.

[LWolf]

107. Yes.

I'm not sure why this would be questioned. But then, I've been busy, and not at the 'puter much the last few weeks, so I've missed whatever DU had to say about it.

[LostOne4Ever]

118. Anytime that a person engages in sex without the consent of the other party it is rape.

Period. End of discussion.

If one of the participants is too young to give consent...it is rape. Again, period, end of discussion.

The question is at what age does can we safely say that a person become able to give consent? Not an easy question to answer. Personally I think 16 is way too young, but I also know average age that people lose their virginity is 17.

Being an asexual, I will probably never understand why anyone would want to engage in that type of behavior so young.