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2nd nurse's Ebola case may have been worse than thought
The airline put the pilots and flight attendants on leave for 21 days, which health experts consider the outer limit of how long it would take someone exposed to Ebola to become sick. Biffle said passengers on the flights have also been notified.
Tim Husted, a traveler-services executive for Carlson Wagonlit Travel, a huge agency with offices around the world, said that fewer than 1 percent of the company's leisure travelers have changed a booking because of Ebola. There is even less of a reaction among business travelers, he said, although a few have requested routes that avoid Dallas.
Maryann Cook, a travel agent in New York, said that a Florida doctor who booked a $197,000 family safari trip to South Africa for 30 people next year wants to rebook it for 2016, even if it means losing a $60,000 deposit.
The complete article is at http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Ebola-causing-some-people-to-change-travel-plans-5830421.php .
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kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)from the time she left Dallas to go to Ohio and hid it from as many people as possible.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Nobody that had seen her has said she was sick. No vomiting, and no diarrhea. Enough with the nurse bashing.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 18, 2014, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)
And stop watching Fox and listening to right wing talk radio and repeating their crap.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)So your claim is she was puking and shitting up a storm, but all others, including people who never met her before are stating she seemed fine?
For FUCKS SAKE!
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)Since when is " I wouldn't be surprised if ..." considered "your claim..."?
Does DU have different English than other sites?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I dont like how they keep gradually admitting that this was worse and worse.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)How about this?
What the fuck are you trying to say?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)No need to get testy.
Well, hmm. The CDC now says she was "symptomatic" on at least one of the flights, but they haven't elaborated. Im asking if you'd want to be the next person in the can if she went in there and, say, dropped a torpedo into the harbor.
Guess what? I wouldn't. Does that make me a horrible person? You don't have to answer, it's a rhetoricle question.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)again, no evidence or reporting to back up the claim.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)They simply inferred that she may have been ill earlier.
Nothing else has changed. If she wasn't in active illness, she was not contagious.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I've said elsewhere, I think it's incredibly unlikely that anyone will get sick from her airport or other travels. Still, the whiff of CYA around some of this stuff is strong. They never should have greenlighted her to fly, certainly not AFTER Pham was diagnosed with ebola, like they did. Whoever came up with the idea that a potentially ebola-exposed individual was "fine" if their fever was 99.5 as opposed to 100.4, deserves to be fired.
I don't think it's surprising, or a coincidence, that the two people Duncan infected happened when his illness was far along, probably in the process of lifesaving heroic measures. I am definitely not interested in demonizing a health care worker who put her own life on the line for that guy. Ebola is most often transmitted when the prior patient is very sick, in the terminal stages of the illness... when the virus has begun converting the body, wholesale, into a puddle of trillions of copies of itself.
Each of those copies, of course, being incredibly infections, since ebola can be transmitted by a very small number of virons... which makes the new meme about how "ebola is ridiculously hard to catch" mind-boggling bullshit. It's easy to catch, if you happen to be unfortunate enough to be around the virus itself.
But demonizing or mocking people who might not want to share a bathroom or a plane aisle with someone the CDC has determined was "possibly symptomatic" with this thing... it's not cool.
And behind the overblown panic is the very real realization that this is a massively lethal, communicable pathogen, and one patient can cause a whole messload of havoc, even if our health systems can contain the secondary infections... witness the Patrick Sawyer situation in Nigeria, which was contained but only after 20+ more infections and some real nail-biting moments, particularly in Port Harcourt.
It's all the more reason why we should have suspended the travel visas for nationals of those 3 countries, until this is over, months ago, as Alan Grayson suggested. That would have prevented Duncan from coming to Texas in the first place.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)"may"
It's an absurd abundance of caution at this time. That's probably why people are freaking out.
The CDC was too nonchalant at first, and now they are too overly cautious.
But nothing has actually changed. You still need to be in contact with bodily fluids, especially those of a dying patient, to catch this.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Still, a low possibility is still a possibility. I'm glad they're going with the absurd abundance of caution, because it's clear (again, after months of bland assurances as to how ready the US was for this) that there was at least some measure of carelessness around this stuff at the beginning. That's how we ended up with 2 more cases, or how we ended up with Duncan being left in a public waiting area (on his second trip to the hospital) with other patients.
Do I think anyone will get sick from those airplanes? No.
Does that mean I would feel super-duper comfortable if I had sent a messy child who tends to touch everything, into that airplane bathroom right after this woman had taken a poop, as people on airplanes are sometimes wont to do?
No, I'd be pretty fucking upset. Which doesn't mean I think there was some high level of risk. A low level of unnecessary risk for some horrific outcome, is still too high.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Gotcha! Completely agree on that point. 
Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #24)
ann--- This message was self-deleted by its author.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)They weren't told to avoid public spaces or transportation or removed from patient care until after Vinson was diagnosed. I think that change was made Thursday. Note that when it was made, the hospital then offered those potentially exposed workers rooms at the hospital because they were then terrified to remain at home with their family members, for obvious reasons.
Why do you keep retyping the same thing when you have been corrected for it before? Why do you feel that it is morally right to do what you are doing? Are you being paid to do this?
You have typed here almost the exact same thing you typed a day or two ago, and I corrected you then. Here's another article:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/15/cdc-officials-confirm-they-told-dallas-ebola-patient-it-was-ok-for-her-to-fly-even-with-low-grade-fever-report/
Your position is apparently to believe that CDC is lying when CDC has confirmed that she was cleared to fly. You should be ashamed of what you are doing.
Ms. Toad
(34,060 posts)fatigue, malaise, and muscle aches - all early symptoms of Ebola. Those symptoms were present at least as early as Saturday. They were reviewing whether they were also present on Friday.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)On Thursday, an official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it's possible Vinson, 29, was symptomatic as early as Friday, Oct. 10.
"She said she felt funny, but nothing specific," Dr. Christopher Braden of the CDC elaborated during Friday's press conference. He added, however, that Vinson "didn't have any of the typical symptoms of Ebola" at that time.
Ms. Toad
(34,060 posts)http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/16/health/us-ebola/
While it doesn't identify the federal official - but CDC is the only entity I can think of that fits.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)I think I will go by what Dr. Braden of the CDC is stating, instead of Elizabeth Cohen's interpretation of a conversation she had with and unknown federal official.
Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #13)
dpibel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)So, sue me. Usually I'm a more amicable chappie, but it's been a long-ass week.
But yes, that's WHY I italicized it. So perhaps your hubristic pouncing on my supposed hubris was prematuerre
Ms. Toad
(34,060 posts)is that she was feeling fatigue, malaise, and muscle aches on Saturday, and possibly as early as Friday. All symptoms of Ebola (and a whole host of other viruses). Since she knows she was exposed to Ebola, knows the symptoms, and knows she was in the incubation period, she had no business flying. (Not to mention that 13% of Ebola patients do not run a fever.)
While I am skeptical that we know it all - since I have observed the same dribbling out of information already noted in this thread - I don't expect to learn anything as dramatic as symptoms exclusive to Ebola.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Do *YOU* want to sit in the seat next to a person infected with Ebola?
Do *YOU* want to use the tiny airplane toilet after them?
I'm pretty sure your answer will be a resounding "No" so let's not pretend everyone is comfortable as hell with people with Ebola on planes and people with Ebola exposure on cruise ships.
Not trying to be an ass, just stating the obvious.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)The comment was that she was likely showing signs. All current reporting from witnesses state otherwise.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'll keep my opinions that you disagree with right out plain and center.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)that people would obviously be uncomfortable with that.
But it doesn't change the fact that she wasn't contagious at that point.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Basal body temperature, so that when I am in menses, my body goes up to 99.4. I have a *high* body temperature. I also have a high metabolism
Some folks have low body temperature. 97.1 is normal, but if they are ill the get to my *NORMAL* body temperature that has always been elevated, never mind when my hormones start flying.
Fever is not an adequate test. I understand that we also have nothing better until you are actually infected to the point where it is invading your organs, but hopefully we can develop a better test than freaking body temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_body_temperature
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Fever is not an adequate test for illness.
For Ebola however, I mean do you understand what happens to a critically ill Ebola patient. It's much more than a fever.
Forgive me if I would like to forego projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea.
Never eat Sushi from a buffet where it has been sitting out. Never.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)And Kestrel, I think you add a lot to the conversations, but your nurse bashing is way out of line. Perhaps you want to insert the next catheter in the next Ebola patient and show us how easy it is?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But it sure seems like they've got the bad news on the slow release drip.
Someone fucked up. They originally said she was not sick on the last plane, then they admitted she may have been a little sick, now they're saying she was "symptomatic" but not elaborating and oh she may have been sick on the first plane, too.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)But everyone who saw her said she was not sick. She herself said she was not sick.
Abundance of caution? Who the hell knows now. But I'm betting that she did not infect anyone.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)that is not something to freak out over though. She was not endangering anyone at that point.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I run around 99.2 because I have a high metabolism combined with exercise. We don't know. She might have had 2.2 degrees on temperature elevation and even though she felt ill, "rigorous standards" kicked in to say she was not in a risk category.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)blood, vomit, diarrhea, is.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)saliva, sweat, blood, urine, feces, vaginal liquids and semen contain virions (infectious material)
I'm not sure why people are pushing this meme that those who discuss the fever think a fever has anything to do with it other than being a symptom.
You are the second person stating that.
DUers aren't ignorant.
I'm certainly not that dumb, as this entire thread has demonstrated that I don't think fever is an adequate testing method.
FarPoint
(12,334 posts)Not a conclusive or diagnostic test...just objective assessment data. A collection of symptoms can lead to a diagnosis. 
B2G
(9,766 posts)Quite likely if she was feeling off.
That's what concerns me. I think her fever would have registered higher had she not taken something and I can't believe she didn't.
I also think the amount of virus in her blood at the time of her test set off some alarm bells, possibly indicating it had progressed further than initially thought. I haven't heard anything about her condition the past few days.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Here are two of Kestrel's posts only minutes apart..
In the first Kestrel is ripping nurse Vinson a new one for flying and in the second she is strongly defending the CDC for allowing Vinson to fly. The only difference is in the first post Kestrel didn't know Vinson had cleared her trip with authorities.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671796
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671923
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Ms. Vinson didn't meet the criterion in body temperature to ground her.
The problem is that body temperatures vary widely. I'd barely be able to get on a plane if I was having my period (Basal body temperature).
Add in a high metabolism, and you are screwed under those parameters.
Body temperature doesn't catch it. She may have had a naturally low body temperature and didn't get detected before it was too late.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Your comment would be better aimed at Kestrel who was ripping the hell out of nurse Vinson for being a moron.
And then barely draws a breath before defending the CDC decision to let her fly.
A little later Kestrel's back to ripping the nurse again. 
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Didn't see that thread. When I do, I'll comment.
I hate it when DUers gang up on someone because they don't one hundred percent agree with everyone.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I like you, but why is everyone harshing on Kestrel? She's pretty knowledgeable and sure, she can be a bit abrasive, but hell, I can be, too.
Did she do something that earned everyone's ire besides being forthright and maybe a little gritty about it?
She cares. She wouldn't be contributing to these threads if she didn't.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)She never backed off on her criticism of nurse Vinson while defending the CDC decision to let her fly.
I liked Kestrel up to this incident, she has shown a really authoritarian streak in this though. Harsh judgment on the nurse while strongly defending the CDC for exactly the same decision.
We either listen to experts or we listen to our Common Sense, we can't have it both ways because Common Sense is so often wrong about this sort of thing.
Which would you prefer we do?
City Lights
(25,171 posts)Some of her posts toward nurses have been very ugly.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)It helps to know I am not the only one noticing.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but damn, who wouldn't if you know they have been in the hot zone? I don't desire to die shitting, vomiting and not being able to have the antiemetic drugs and pain killers because it affects the internal organs too harshly. You have your explosive diarrhea, projectile vomiting, and you just pray you can get through it.
Ugly fucking way to go.
The good news is that you aren't disfigured like smallpox.
That clears things up. A few more minutes and the Foo Fighters are on.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Only the fever.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Not everyone follows the same timeline, and we folks outside her medical records can't know exactly what the course of her infection looked like.
There could be 2-3 few days of the generally flu-like symptoms, and those would be in addition to whatever low fever she monitored and reported before flying. That might be the 'being more symptomatic that thought.'
It's also true that the comment could mean that more distinctly ebola like symptoms were beginning to manifest. And, of course, we don't know what's in her medical records, but that might refer only to higher fever.
However her case proceeded, it's pretty clear her infection was skating at the border of the envelope of being symptomatic.
Because of that, I think I'd say, it wouldn't really -surprise- me if she was expressing symptoms typical of about day 10. If I were in a position of responsibility to flight crews and passengers or if I was trying to educate people who had possible exposures to the need for close monitoring for onset of symptoms of illness, that would actually concern me.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to deleting, editing or otherwise apologizing for it.
Really beyond the pale.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Nor would she have called CDC and not reported those symptoms, nor, if she had reported gastro symptoms, would CDC have cleared the flight.
She is a nurse who got infected from a patient, not a mass murdering sociopath who got engaged and planned a wedding just to have a chance of passing it on.
It's more probable that she just had a slow immune response. It is the immune response that alerts the infected individual that something is wrong, and that varies quite naturally among individuals. Some people react to viral infections with stronger initial symptoms.
Also, in women of reproductive ages, there are natural modulations of the immune response that vary throughout the menstrual cycle. Certain types of immune responses are regulated down during the period during which a woman might get pregnant. This could account for milder initial symptoms:
http://www.livescience.com/36067-women-prone-infections-ovulating.html
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)After Duncan died, have there been 2 more cases that are now being tracked?
I have been busy lately, and I haven't had much time to devote to this issue.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I get it now.
Electing or re-electing Democrats to office with the mid-term elections less than 20 days away is less important to numerous DU members than discussing the hypothetical cases of non-existent ebola victims!!
Shit, looks like the "black is white, up is down" syndrome has overtaken the DU.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)NIH and Emory.
A total of approximately 1000 contacts are being isolated/monitored/tracked to varying degrees. I don't know what they are going to do about the cruise ship with 3600+ people on it.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's not like the cruise ship has the facilities to do it.
What shifted after the second nurse infections is that we went the Nigerian route. It's completely reasonable just to test to rule out and exclude. For really early cases testing wouldn't work, but that woman's theoretical exposure was almost three weeks ago.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)They really dodged a bullet with THAT business, though.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)But geeze, you're right. What a horror it would be if someone had Ebola on a cruise ship. How would one even handle it coming back to port?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)I would think that would have given them a clue...
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)If you have a really low load at time of diagnosis, the probability of passing it on through public transport is just about nil. Because of the way they reacted when Ms. Vinson was first tested, I suspect her viral load was higher, implying earlier illness with very low symptoms.
If you got in a car accident and a responder was exposed to body fluids, it could happen. But if the viral load is very low in your blood, how's it going to get out and attack the person just sitting next to you or standing next to you in line? It's a virus, not an alien from Mars. We don't know everything about this virus, but we know a lot about viruses.
It's not as if they had a flea infestation on that flight. I would think it's the bathroom or nothing, and even that's a low probability.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)And consider this. They said Nina's virus loads were low.
They said no such things about Amber.
I am pretty positive her viral loads were already high when she went to be tested.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)which tends to confirm your suspicion. They moved very quickly.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Which is why they are contacting hundreds of people who were on planes with her.