German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

[Blue_Tires]

After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.
Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/german-intelligence-blames-pro-russian-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

Chickens coming home to roost...

So after all the spin, deflection, speculation, conspiracy articles using invented sources, propaganda from Russia Today, and just outright brazen BULLSHIT, it looks like we're back to square one and I was right after all...

As an aside: Robert Parry is the first person I want to see a full retraction and apology from -- That bullshit he put his name to was the height of irresponsible journalism, almost as horrific as Hersch's "expose" on Syria...(once people start connecting the dots on what those two stories had in common, they will have a much different perspective of those two once-great investigative reporters)

[The Magistrate]

1. Hardly A Surprise, Sir

It is just confirmation of what was clear to disinterested observers from the very start.

I agree with you Mr. Parry, in particular, had disgraced himself in this matter and in commentary on events in Ukraine in general. He is hardly alone but most of his fellows already had solid reputations as cranks and loons and fools, or simply paid shills.

Do not expect this to shut any of them up, however....

"I've got to stop asking people if they're really that stupid. They take it as a challenge."

[scarletwoman]

2. "...pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base"

I would also like to note that this report shows that the missile was NOT supplied by Russia to the rebels, but was "captured" (aka stolen) from the Ukrainian military.

[The Magistrate]

3. That, Again, Ma'am, Was The Earliest Explanation To Appear

Various commentators afterwards came forward to claim the item captured lacked certain elements for proper use, or was otherwise 'junk' or worse. Beyond the general connection to Russia of its fostering and maintaining the secessionists in arms, early reports suggested that some secessionists had been brought over into Russia just before this incident for a quick course in operating the weapon. That some were supplied by Russia seems to have been the case: Ukrainian aircraft were proving useful in the fighting, and had learned to operate higher to avoid the shoulder-fired missiles already being employed by the secessionists, making use of such systems necessary. It is just as certain some missiles, like some items of other heavy equipment, were indeed seized by the secessionists from captured bases and stores. In view of the large quantities of Russian equipment and soldiers operating in Ukraine, tracing the origin of some particular item of ordnance does not seem to have much significance.

What happened was clear from the beginning. Secessionists operating a missile system shot at something they thought was a Ukrainian air force plane, but were mistaken in that and instead hit a civil air liner. There has never been any real reason provided to think anything else.

[scarletwoman]

7. I never doubted that it was the pro-Russian separatists who fired the thing,

I only doubted that it had been directly supplied to them by Russia - which is what certain U.S. officials claimed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/20/the-evidence-that-may-prove-pro-russian-separatists-shot-down-mh17/
<snip>
The sophistication of the weaponry needed to bring down a plane at the height at which MH17 was flying makes it, Kerry said, "pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists." (my bold)

I have no problem with the claim that Russia trained them how to use it.

[The Magistrate]

9. I Did Not Think You Had, Ma'am

And I agree that, in relation to this particular launcher, Sec. Kerry may have gone a bit farther than accurate or even necessary. Sufficient quantities of heavy weapons have been transferred from Russia to the secessionists that it makes little difference if this particular missile was so transferred. So direct ascription was not really necessary to the case of general Russian responsibility for the actions of the secessionists.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. Ya but...Victoria Nuland. nt

[freshwest]

8. Beat me to it...

And I'm making popcorn...

[The Magistrate]

22. Odd You Should Illustrate With Oreos, My Friend....

Tracing the Origins of the Oreo Cookie Conspiracy

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/tracing-the-origins-of-the-oreo-cookie-conspiracy

[freshwest]

25. Love it! I agree with this comment there:

Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 09:02 PM - Edit history (1)

BillUSA - 09/24/2014 10:59pm

"It's all rather silly, since Nabisco was founded long before there was radio, let alone TV."

Why should little details such as those get in the way of a good conspiracy theory?

Wha' fax? We don't need no stinkin' fax!



Yes! Let's use Satan's Constitution to protect our Freedom and Liberty!

P. S. I am particularly fond of the Obama - Akhenaten link:

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10025099417#post9

[The Magistrate]

26. Some Of The Mentions There Were Sort Of Old Home Week

'Above Top Secret' really takes me back, and it was a treat to see' Executive Intelligence Review', the LaRouchite magazine, had weighed in on the matter....

[Xolodno]

5. This will get buried in the media....

...it doesn't fit the narrative...that being, Ronald Reagan's statement of "the evil empire" is Russia. Facts be damned.

Russia and Ukraine have come to an agreement on gas supplies...you won't hear any significant reports on that on the 5 o'clock news...because it doesn't fit the narrative. Which is the problem of our media...they don't care about reporting things as they are....they want to report what fits "the narrative"....as it drives viewership...ratings....money....and were all suckers because we subscribe to the news that we want to hear and opinion by commentators....because, god forbid, we use our own head.

[NutmegYankee]

6. Not much of a revelation to any rational person.

The paid propagandists however, must have winced a bit at this news story.

[davidpdx]

11. Speaking of....

Where are they hiding these days?

[zappaman]

10. Robert Parry has been consistently wrong on this.

The real question is why is Parry shilling for Putin?

[davidpdx]

12. Parry and the Russian apologists will retract what they have said when hell freezes over

They are too good to admit they are wrong. My guess is we are going to hear this is yet another CIA conspiracy.

[The Magistrate]

13. I Expect Your Guess Is Right, Sir

After all, we already have people who purport to believe that President Obama is actively seeking to launch a nuclear first strike against Russia over the defeat of his project to make Ukraine a Nazi-ruled colony. And this is not in reference to the 'usual suspects' providing headers for Right Wing Watch; these are authors and sites regularly cited by people posting here on DU, who present themselves as champions of leftism and anti-war sentiment.

[MattSh]

14. And you don't think the German secret service has a reason to lie about this?

My government, the German government, the Ukrainian government, some government of a country I've never heard of says it's true, so it must be true! It's a government! Governments never lie to the people!

Naivety at it's finest.






[GGJohn]

15. But the Russian govt, AKA, Putin,

isn't lying?
AmIright?

[MattSh]

16. I am responding to the opening post...

Which is about what German intelligence states.

All government lie, when the needs arise. One needs to be smart enough to understand that and needs to take time to not just fall for the first thing a government says.

[GGJohn]

17. Good point, yes, all govts lie.

But in this case, I'm really leaning towards the rebels firing this missile thinking they were firing at a Ukrainian military aircraft, the evidence is just too compelling.

[LanternWaste]

27. It wasn't so much a response as it was a vague, unsupported allegation.

It wasn't so much a response as it was a vague, unsupported allegation.

[The Magistrate]

18. And That Is The Point, Sir

Mostly, when someone trots out the 'don't believe it, all governments lie' line, what they really mean is 'don't believe this government, believe that government instead.'

[MattSh]

19. Why might the German government be lying this time?

Oh yeah, here's the quote I was looking for...

As I understand it the idea of a breakfast meeting between Putin and European leaders came from Merkel. With the German and European economies tanking in part because of the very sanctions policy she has imposed, Merkel needs this crisis to end. At the same time she remains utterly unwilling to take on the US and its European allies or the Atlanticists within Germany. She therefore looks to Putin to extricate her from the mess she has got herself into. However because she is not prepared to face up to the US and its allies or the Atlanticists she wants Putin to get her out of trouble by capitulating to all their demands. She tries to do this by applying “pressure” on Putin (that was what today’s breakfast meeting was all about) and then looks sullenly angry and baffled when it doesn’t work.

So this happened October 18, and the report from the German foreign intelligence service came out when? Oh yeah. October 19th. Putin didn't help Merkel out of the jam she's gotten Germany and the whole EU into, so now she's ratcheting up the pressure again, hoping that the 3rd time, no the 5th time, no the 20th time will be a charm.

Give it up Merkel, it ain't going to work.

I know. I'm playing chess on a different dimension that most. Sorry about that.

[The Magistrate]

20. You Cite A Government's Creature, Sir

What becomes of your 'all governments lie' line?

Generally, people saying 'don't believe this, all governments lie' really mean 'don't believe this government, believe that government instead', and this is exactly what you are doing here. You have cited one Alexander Mercouris, who writes for RIA Novosti, which is, if you were consistent, about the same as saying of a U.S. commentator that he works for CNN. His entire piece is based on the idea Russia is unaffected by sanctions, and that sanctions are hurting only Europe, and that Europe is being dragged into sanctions by the U.S., despite actually being fine with Russian domination and dismemberment of Ukraine. Not one element of this rises to the level of clear fact. His fulminations in service of the Russian government line do not come near impeaching the report of the German intelligence service.

[The Magistrate]

21. A Little More About The Man You Cited, Sir

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9146307/Barrister-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped.html

Barrister struck off over claim that senior law lord had him kidnapped

A barrister has been struck off after falsely claiming one of Britain’s most senior judges had him kidnapped and blackmailed him into dropping a £1 million claim on behalf of a client.

Alexander Mercouris concocted a web of “tortuous deceit” to convince a client he was pursuing the bogus claim, including forging a Supreme Court judge’s signature, a tribunal heard.

He even alleged that Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, President of the Supreme Court, had him abducted and offered him a £50,000 bribe to abandon the case.

Mr Mooney described the lies as an “extremely convoluted story” of “tortuous deceit” and that his relationship with his client had gone from “supportive and helpful” to “bizarre, unhelpful and profoundly dishonest”.

“In my opinion, Mr Mercouris is not fully in control of his faculties,” he told the tribunal.

Mercouris, a former Citizens Advice Bureau worker who was called to the bar in 2006, wept as he admitted five counts of bringing his profession into disrepute through misconduct.

[jeff47]

23. That just shows how deep the conspiracy goes!!!! (nt)

[The Magistrate]

24. Not A Feather Falls From A Sparrow's Wing, Sir

But that the 'hidden hand' pulled a 'false flag' to do it....

"I have to stop asking people if they're really that stupid. They take it as a challenge."