General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf Hillary doesn't run, is Biden the default? (I hope so)
Hillary Clinton isnt going to retire to life as a Chappequa grandma; she is all but certain to run for president. If Joe Biden is putting any serious thought to 2016, there is no point in him positioning himself as a progressive alternative to Clinton in the primaries. His best chance is to loiter as an heir apparent, ready to launch a campaign if health issues or some other, unforeseen circumstance compels Clinton to bow out. At that point, it is highly likely Biden would be able to dispatch Martin OMalley or Brian Schweitzer, or Jim Webb, or Bernie Sanders, or any of the other peripheral figures who might decide to contest the primaries. There would be an inevitable grass-roots campaign to get Elizabeth Warren to run, but she has consistently ruled it out. In any case, many of her most ardent and influential supporters have reservations about the feasibility of such a campaign, and would prefer her to remain in the Senate.
If Hillary comes out tomorrow and says, Im not running,
I still think she shouldnt run, said one New York-based financial supporter of Warren. She has so many holes in her resume.
Added another California-based donor: Two years ago she was a college professor, for goodness sakes. She has one issue and she is a great advocate for that one issue. She doesnt have the breadth of experience necessary to be president.
If Hillary drops out, with a significant health issue entirely plausible, Biden becomes, if not the automatic substitute, then certainly the fall-back for the 2016 Democratic nomination until a substitute is decided upon.
The arguments about his viability as a presidential contender are deeply familiar. His authenticity and commendable face-to-face campaigning abilities are let down by his notorious ill-discipline and tendency to go off track. His age is an issue.
Officially, theres no maximum age for presidential candidates. The point at which someone is considered too old isnt clearly defined.
The oldest presidential candidate thus far was Ronald Reagan, who was 73-and-a-half years old when he ran as the incumbent in 1984. The oldest non-incumbent to win a nomination was Bob Dole, who turned 73 a few weeks before the 1996 Republican convention. Hes followed closely by John McCain, who turned 72 a few days before the GOP nominated him in 08.
Bob Dole is the most interesting comparison. Biden, who will turn 74 two weeks after the 2016 election, will be 73 during the campaign, only eight months older than Dole was in 1996.
One person can be nominated by his party and run for president, but another persons candidacy is tacitly ruled out, because he is eight months older? Put like that, such a margin seems arbitrary and artificial.
Bidens gaffes reinforce the age issue for him, because they are synonymous with the lapses of attention and fading mental acuity of advancing years.
Mitigating against this is the notion that Bidens lapses, whilst exasperating, are almost invariably inconsequential. They never reveal Machiavellian cynicism, or hypocrisy, or scathing contempt for opponents or figures in the media, or backstabbing, or a schism between on-stage and off-stage personas.
The Joe Bombs as they are called, are what I would term soft gaffes Bidens Big fucking deal getting caught on mic was crass, but amounted to little more than an old-school politician ginning up his boss who was about to make remarks about the ACA. Telling the wheelchair-bound Chuck Graham to stand up was similarly clumsy, but inconsequential. A more important distinction to make is between dated, politically incorrect analogies and language, and Bidens durably authentic character. Biden calls someone The wisest man in the Orient, and calls lenders of bad loans to people serving in the military Shylocks, and whilst clumsy, no one would contend that, the latter for instance, was a genuinely anti-Semitic Freudian slip, a revelation of a subliminal ethnic and cultural contempt. Outdated racial terminology? Yes. The merest hint of genuine bigotry in the remarks? No. Similarly, when Biden spoke at the Democratic Womens Leadership Forum, and clumsily and thoughtlessly praised the legislative involvement of former Sen. Bob Packwood, who resigned in 1995 after accusations of sexual harassment and assault, no one would actually suggest that Biden, the driving force behind the Violence Against Women Act, actually condones Bob Packwoods misogyny.
The reason these little episodes get so much media traction is partly because there is a degree of humor about them the pathos and irony of a sincere person guilelessly frustrating those he is sincerely trying to help.
One emphatic riposte to criticism of Bidens discipline is his key role in the debates, during two presidential campaigns. Against Sarah Palin he performed suitably, with discipline and without any gaffes. He had good control of his material, had the presence of mind to avoid being seen as overbearing towards his female opponent, and won the debate handily. Against Paul Ryan four years later, he was once again disciplined, and righted the ship at a difficult time for the re-election campaign, after the presidents weak first debate performance. With nation-wide attention, during prime-time, when it counts, Joe Biden delivers.
Most importantly, his legislative involvement during the administration reveals him to be a disciplined and vital figure.
In December 2010, Bidens advocacy within the White House for a middle ground, followed by his direct negotiations with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, were instrumental in producing the administrations compromise tax package that revolved around a temporary extension of the Bush tax cuts. Biden then took the lead in trying to sell the agreement to a reluctant Democratic caucus in Congress. In March 2011, Obama detailed Biden to lead negotiations between both houses of Congress and the White House in resolving federal spending levels for the rest of the year and avoid a government shutdown. By May 2011, a Biden panel with six congressional members was trying to reach a bipartisan deal on raising the U.S. debt ceiling as part of an overall deficit reduction plan. The U.S. debt ceiling crisis developed over the next couple of months, but it was again Bidens relationship with McConnell that proved to be a key factor in breaking the deadlock and finally bringing about a bipartisan deal to resolve the debt ceiling crisis, in the form of the Budget Control Act of 2011. Biden had spent the most time bargaining with Congress on the debt question of anyone in the administration, and one Republican staffer said, Bidens the only guy with real negotiating authority, and McConnell knows that his word is good. He was key to the deal.
Dick Cheney is the most influential modern vice-president in terms of geo-politics and national security; but Bidens negotiating and framing of significant legislation marks him as the most influential modern vice president in terms of the domestic, fiscal agenda. In an age of hyper-partisan gridlock, he has managed, through experience, connections and trustworthiness, to get significant things done. Isnt that, ultimately, what people want from a president? Wouldnt that be an attractive proposition in 2016, after the current legislative malaise and mood of distrust? To put it another way, the legislative deals he helped negotiate are a big fucking deal.
If he can tell that story, and establish that narrative, the public might start to tolerate the worst of his his ill-disciplined rhetoric, and be willing to give the old-school, hand-grasping, mouth-running, stick-up-for-the-working-stiff V.P a decent chance. FROM: http://sheppardpost.com/
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)Hillary bows out, then it's a free-for-all. Joe Biden has proved twice that he can easily be beaten in the race for the Democratic nomination. Yes, he might hit double-digit support this time around, but just barely.
Their side considers first who's turn it is, our side loves a fresh face, given that there may well be no heir apparent.
demwing
(16,916 posts)He'll be the closest thing in the race to a populist with a fighting chance at winning.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)As Senator he voted FOR the bankruptcy bill that fucked student loan debtors. He voted FOR a lot of the drug war crap.
MFM008
(19,803 posts)To many gaffes, he is the verbal Gerald Ford.
Good guy
bad cantidate.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)Biden becomes frontrunner but not inevitable nominee.
He would be In stronger postion than he was In 1987 and 2008.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)He is an EXCELLENT candidate.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)and thats only because he held the "drool cup", for 8 yrs. Being a VP doesn't make you heir apparent and in this case Joe won't be the nominee.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Not just no. Hell no.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)It''s Mr. New World Order/MBNA/BofA/Bomb Assad Biden.
(I know, it's not polite to bring up the New World Order, because only "Conspiracy Theorists" use that phrase. Except when Very Powerful People like Joe Biden also use that phrase. They are NOT "Conspiracy Theorists", because, well, they're the opposite. Or something.)
Oh yeah, there's Mr. Creator of the Drug Czar too. A man of many talents.
Joe Biden's Awful Record on Drug Policy
...from a policy perspective, its a disaster. Biden has sponsored more damaging drug war legislation than any Democrat in Congress. Hate the way federal prosecutors use RICO laws to take aim at drug offenders? Thank Biden. How about the abomination that is federal asset forfeiture laws? Thank Biden. Think federal prosecutors have too much power in drug cases? Thank Biden. Think the title of a Drug Czar is sanctimonious and silly? Thank Biden, who helped create the position (and still considers it an accomplishment worth boasting about).
Tired of the ridiculous steroids hearings in Congress? thank Biden, who led the effort to make steroids a Schedule 3 drug, and has been among the blowhardiest of the blowhards when it comes to sports and performance enhancing drugs. Biden voted in favor of using international development aid for drug control (think plan Columbia, plan Afghanistan, and other meddling anti-drug efforts that have only fostered loathing of America, backlash, and unintended consequences). Oh, and he was also the chief sponsor of 2004s horrendous RAVE Act...
http://stopthedrugwar.org/speakeasy/2008/aug/24/joe_bidens_awful_record_drug_pol
His kid, after getting thrown out of the Navy for drugs, is sitting on the Board of Directors for Ukraine's largest fracking company. I'll bet Joey is proud of that!
Swell guy, no?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Sorry, but we need someone with both feet in this century. That's not so much about Biden's age as it is his state of mind. Some of the biggest milestones of his legislative track record were inane draconian drug war clusterfucks like the RAVE act.
i still like Biden, but there are a ton of people I'd rather see as our presidential nominee.
For the future we need fresh faces and ideas, people like Gavin Newsom.
reddread
(6,896 posts)If you could scrape the lowest level of scum that a Clarence Thomas nomination fixer like Biden inhabits,
and somehow dig a little lower- I believe thats where you find a back stabbing marriage destroyer like
Newsom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom
is that really all that matters? A pretty face?
That scumbag needs to be anything but a leader.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm talking about the fact that he's been ahead of the curve on important issues like marriage equality and marijuana legalization.
Honestly I would think that the Clinton impeachment would have taught everyone a lesson about trying to separate peoples' personal lives and their political ones. The stuff about Newsom's divorce doesn't really interest me that much.
reddread
(6,896 posts)his "personal life" took quite the toll on his right hand man.
Thats a whole lot of wishfulness to overlook such ugliness,
just because he, like, I dont know, maybe 50 million other people
supported the obvious right over the untenable wrong?
thats some saving grace.
Newsom makes John Edwards look good.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Look, I understand the objections around his personal life- however, on issues like marriage equality and pot legalization, Newsom has done what leaders do- LEAD.
Whereas our Party we-know-better beltway poop-bahs, particularly those east of the Mississippi, can't seem to find their voice, or their heads from their butts, on these issues until the people basically order them to. Shit, look at Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, whose position on marijuana is that obviously we're being WAY too lenient with granny when she wants to smoke a joint to ease her chemo nausea.
I'm not even suggesting Newsom per se, although I do think that the marital problems won't necessarily be a career deal-breaker.
However IMHO his public positions are emblematic of where things will go. Biden is pretty firmly in the past.
TBF
(32,017 posts)he does not have the charisma to run and I don't think his connections to the banks (and credit card companies) help him at all. Elizabeth, Bernie, or look to the younger guys - O'Malley, Castro.
840high
(17,196 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,167 posts)Democrats can do much better.
vi5
(13,305 posts)But I'm afraid he would have an uphill battle in the GE.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)The reason that Obama is so criticized is to hurt the administration, ie, Biden, so that he will look to blame for everything wrong, thus making him unacceptable as the "default."
Up until he was VP, he was one of the most respected men in the Senate. He didn't please everyone, but no one doubts that he is loyal and trustworthy, something that can't be said of all candidates.. As VP, every word he utters is ridiculed by some, not all. He's being methodically eliminated as a viable candidate in 2016.
The news about his son came out this week, tho it happened in Feb. Election very soon, coincidence? Maybe to eliminate his campaigning for candidates so that they owe him... Just a guess, but feelings often turn out to be right...not always.
vi5
(13,305 posts)I'd vote for him in a primary over Hillary. And if he's the nominee I would have no problem voting for him in the GE. I have issues with lots of his opinions and votes, but nowhere near as many as I do with Hillary or at this point even Obama.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)What fight has Hillary won that's in the same league?
And Warren's already polling better than Biden.
Wall Street is scared.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)If that's the best we can do, HRC or Biden, why fucking bother?
It's not primary season yet. Why not give us a brief period of hope that someone worth voting for will run?
demwing
(16,916 posts)Are you worth voting for?
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I'm already a public servant, and am needed where I'm at. If I ever retire, I'll consider running for the local school board, at least.
Worth voting for? Sure. You'd know, clearly and specifically, my positions on issues. If you liked those positions, you'd know I'd fight fiercely, to the bitter end, without ever giving up, for those positions.
Still, there are a few Democrats out there that WANT to run for political office that are worth voting for. Let's start there.
demwing
(16,916 posts)and let the process sort out the qualifieds.
Given that, then nobody should be trying to limit the field to mainstream corporate candidates before the primary season even opens.
Those mainstream candidates, like HRC and Biden, will be there no matter what. The "encouragement" and attention should be directed at those out of the mainstream corporate stranglehold.
Autumn
(44,986 posts)Please no.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But President? Just no.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)pass that shit over here. I want some of whatever you're smoking!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is who I would like to see enter the race. I wouldn't mind Joe being the President either.
Elizabeth Warren would be kick ass, but we probably need her more in the Senate. But I could get excited about O'Malley or Biden.
I'm not ready for Hillary. We need to end these dynastic presidencies. No more Clintons and certainly no more Bushes.
We need a candidate with backbone. Hillary has backbone, but not the right kind of backbone.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)It looks like he's building local relationships and support to hit the ground running.
It looks like he is starting to build some relationships in the south. That would be a very smart move to get a handle on regional differences in political priorities and the languages of ordinary citizens.
OMalley headed to Louisiana and Texas for series of campaign events in coming days
According to an aide, OMalley will speak at a Women for Mary reception in New Orleans before joining her brother, Mitch Landrieu, the citys mayor, for a couple of events focused on the senators efforts to secure hurricane-relief funding.
On Thursday, OMalley is booked to appear at the University of Texas at Austin for a rally on early voting. OMalley is then expected to join students and Democratic activists in spreading the word on campus and in surrounding communities.
OMalley has said he is preparing for a 2016 presidential bid regardless of whether Hillary Rodham Clinton decides to run. He recently told The Washington Post that he will probably decide whether to move forward by the time his tenure as governor ends in late January.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/omalley-headed-to-louisiana-and-texas-for-series-of-campaign-events-in-coming-days/2014/10/21/a0a655f4-596b-11e4-8264-deed989ae9a2_story.html
That would be in keeping with his history. He started out working in the field for Dem candidates. Then, when he started his own political career he ran for city council to mayor to governor.
One article said his parents met at Dem headquarters. I think his story has a really interesting populist\Kennedy-esque juxtaposition. A guy who was born into a family that taught him to EARN an opportunity to serve in a political capacity makes for a great romantic life story.
I love the bottom up trajectory and I am so interested to hear what he has to say.
Lex
(34,108 posts)has too much baggage and is more to the right than Bill, that's why.
Martin O'Malley.
Hillary Clinton is badass, but she has too much baggage to be the President.
Lex
(34,108 posts)as the OP suggested was highly plausible in the premise of the OP.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)But if Bernie runs.....
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It's not only the gaffes which, inconsequential or not, are how a lot of folks see him.... As sort of your crazy old Uncle that you still love, even though he says some crazy shit now and again. Also, his well known opposition to the Bin Laden raid won't be a plus in his column.
I think he's actually a smart guy, and I've always like him, but his public image is framed... And there isn't much he can do to change it.