US-Backed Ukraine Army Used Cluster Bombs Against Its Own People: Reports

[Octafish]

'Firing cluster munitions into populated areas is utterly irresponsible and those who ordered such attacks should be held to account,' says rights group.

by Jon Queally, staff writer
CommonDreams, Oct. 21, 2014

The Ukraine Army, backed by both the U.S. and NATO throughout its military campaign against rebel factions in eastern regions of the country over recent months, appears to have fired cluster munitions on the city of Donetsk earlier this month, according to a Human Rights Watch investigation and independent reporting by the New York Times.

Citing the HRW report, physical evidence and its own interviews with both witnesses and victims, the Times reports:

Sites where rockets fell in the city on Oct. 2 and Oct. 5 showed clear signs that cluster munitions had been fired from the direction of army-held territory, where misfired artillery rockets still containing cluster bomblets were found by villagers in farm fields.

The two attacks wounded at least six people and killed a Swiss employee of the International Red Cross based in Donetsk.

If confirmed, the use of cluster bombs by the pro-Western government could complicate efforts to reunite the country, as residents of the east have grown increasingly bitter over the Ukrainian Army’s tactics to oust pro-Russian rebels.

“It is shocking to see a weapon that most countries have banned used so extensively in eastern Ukraine,” said Mark Hiznay, senior arms researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Ukrainian authorities should make an immediate commitment not to use cluster munitions and join the treaty to ban them.”

CONTINUED w. links, video and nothing from the noted agenda pusher* Robert Parry...

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/10/21/us-backed-ukraine-army-used-cluster-bombs-against-its-own-people-reports

* Journalist

[karynnj]

1. Neither the US or Nato has had ANY military involvement in Ukraine

There is actually MORE reason to suspect that the Russian army has been directly involved with the Pro-Russian seperatists - also accused of using cluster bombs by the same report.

There are many times where the US has provably been involved in unsavory things. Here, there is little reason to blame either NATO or the US, unless there is some proof.

[Octafish]

2. Did you read the article?

It says the USA and NATO are backing Ukraine. That nation's forces are using cluster bombs against its own people. Here's a pic:



Remnants of a misfired Uragan cluster munition rocket lying in a field in territory controlled by the Ukrainian government near Novomykhailivka, Ukraine on October 14, 2014. (Photo: 2014 / Ole Solvang/Human Rights Watch)

From what I know, that is Russian ordnance, delivered by rocket.

[karynnj]

12. I read the NYT article and this one

The fact is that it is the Common Dreams writer who adds as adjectives that it is US and NATO backed. It is true that the US and NATO support the government, saying the army is US and NATO backed is really his editorializing. Just because Ukraine is allied with the US and NATO, does not mean that we are complicit in all they do.

I am in no way defending the Ukraine army if they used these munitions and if they did, their government, assuming it was approved, is complicit. If it was not approved, they need to indict the people who allowed it to happen.

[Octafish]

13. Thank you, karnnj, didn't mean that if I implied it.

The USA is not responsible for what the Ukraine military does. The USA, however, is partly responsible for helping create today's circumstances there. A great article from Katya Soldak of Forbes from two years' back:

Message from Condoleezza Rice to Ukraine:

"The World is Watching You"

Katya Soldak
Forbes, 9/19/2012

Recently, Condoleezza Rice, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Gordon Brown, Ukrainian president Victor Yanukovych and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan congregated at Livadia Palace in Southern Ukraine, the summer retreat of the last Russian tsar, Nicolas II—a Renaissance style building on the top of a hill, with the Black Sea rolling below. The same place as where Theodore Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin met at their famed Yalta conference of 1945.

The difference is that back then the rulers of the powerful countries met to make real decisions about the world’s future. This past weekend, Rice, and other guests of the 9th annual Yalta European Strategy meeting came to share their thoughts about the world’s challenges. Discussions today could influence policymakers and lead to making tomorrow’s decisions.

Among the matters discussed were the economic future of Europe and the role of the United States in dealing with economic and political issues of today. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian theme continued throughout the two-day conference. The government imprisoned former prime minister and opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko, and this has drawn criticism by the West; Ukraine tightens conditions for independent media and freedom of speech; the parliamentary elections coming up this October have already caused concerns among democratic observers on the subject of fairness and transparency.

Condoleezza Rice made it clear in her speech that the world is interested in Ukraine and is carefully watching all its developments: “Country like Ukraine with consolidation of democracy is watched carefully,” she said. Rice emphasized the importance of freedom of speech and free elections. “If Ukraine speaks in one voice, this voice would be heard.”

SNIP...

Indeed, the 9th annual Yalta conference – by many opinions, one of the best international platforms for discussions among high-profile politicians and innovative thinkers – is organized by Ukrainian billionaire Victor Pinchuk’s foundation and is taking place in Ukraine at a time when European leaders have recently boycotted the Euro 2012 soccer championship over Tymoshenko’s arrest and detainment. The fact that American politicians like Condoleezza Rice and Britain’s Gordon Brown attended, can’t be attributed to good relationships between Ukrainian and Western governments.

CONTINUED...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/katyasoldak/2012/09/19/message-from-condoleezza-rice-to-ukraine-the-world-is-watching-you/

In retrospect, it appears the Neocons -- the axis of Wall Street and Secret Government -- have stayed on top the entire time. And, like their ilk did to Iran in 1953, the Ukraine Operation will not benefit the American people as a whole. It will benefit the owners of Big Oil and Condoleeza Rice.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. "Remnants of a misfired Uragan cluster munition rocket..."

You're blaming the US and NATO for firing a Russian rocket with Russian cluster munitions?

The BM-27 Uragan (Russian: Ураган, 'hurricane'; GRAU index 9P140) is a self-propelled multiple rocket launcher system designed in the Soviet Union. It began its service with the Soviet Army in the late 1970s, as its first modern spin and fin stabilized heavy multiple rocket launcher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-27_Uragan

[Octafish]

20. Where did I write that?

I wrote the military that the USA and NATO back -- those now running Ukraine -- used cluster munitions on their own people.

Look it up.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. And Abraham Lincoln used artillery on his own people.

Ukraine is using such tools as were part of its arsenal after nearly a century of being a state subjugated by the Soviet Union. It's almost poetic that it is being used to prevent returning to that empire.

[The Magistrate]

3. Just As A Point Of Reference, Sir

The list of countries that have not signed the Convention on cluster munitions includes Russia, China, the United States, Brazil, India, Ukraine, and Turkey.

Also worth having is a direct link to the report itself:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

[Octafish]

5. Thank you, Sir.

From what I understand, Ukraine also is not a signatory.

http://www.clusterconvention.org/the-convention/convention-status/

Even if they were, all the legalese in the world wouldn't make their use proper -- against their own people.

[The Magistrate]

8. War, Sir, As Someone Famously Remarked, Is Hell

Civil wars tend to get worse in their cruelty.

I do not know enough about the fine grain of the military situation in which these were employed to judge whether they were fired at legitimate military targets. I know the organization reporting considers just about any use of such weapons improper, but I do not share their standard completely. It is one thing if they are actually intended to hit a concentration of troops or weapons or transport, and quite another if they are simply fired as an area bombardment of a town or neighborhood.

I must confess I get tired of the 'against their own people' line in circumstances where what is actually going on is civil war or open rebellion. It is not as if a government here is simply wheeling up artillery and letting fly at a town out of the clear blue sky: there is a war going on, has been for several months now, in which secessionist forces hold fairly well defined swathes of territory, and give as good as they get in terms of firepower and casualties inflicted on government forces, and whatever civilians happen to be in the battle zones on the government side of the front lines.

[Octafish]

11. Dear Sir, we are on the same side, each looking at the situation with our unique perspectives.

War kills the innocent far, far more than the guilty. In the case of Iraq, perhaps by a factor of a million to one.

PS: In all the years -- going on 14 soon -- we've known each other, we can state plainly what we believe and still respect one another.

How is that possible? We both know: We both are against war and we both are for the United States of America.

[The Magistrate]

14. World Is A Funny Place, Sir

War may at times be necessary, but is never to be sought. To enter it save as a last resort is always wrong.

I have never believed that love of one's country requires overlooking its flaws, let alone failing to try and correct them.

I suspect this provides us sufficient overlap, even where we might disagree on some particulars.

[NuclearDem]

4. If Fox News reported on legitimate Russian crimes

it wouldn't make Fox any less of a propaganda outfit.

[Octafish]

6. Sideshow much?

Anything to add to the point, which is Ukraine using inhumane weapons on its own people?

[NuclearDem]

7. No sideshow at all.

You brought up Parry, whose reporting on legitimate Ukranian crimes against its own people doesn't change the fact that he pushes the Kremlin line.

[Octafish]

9. THAT makes sense. So how does Parry telling the truth serve to push the "Kremlin line"?

Telling the truth is what journalists are supposed to do, no matter who's ox gets gored.

[NuclearDem]

17. When you push the meme that the attack may have been an attempt to assassinate Putin

Then you're pushing the Kremlin line.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/08/was-putin-targeted-for-mid-air-assassination/

[Octafish]

18. Because you know it wasn't, doesn't make it so.

The thing is, we don't know. Nor do we know who actually shot down the jetliner, which is what Parry reported -- what German intel told Der Spiegel.

[NuclearDem]

19. You've got to be kidding.

Because you know it wasn't, doesn't make it so.

Actually, knowing something isn't the case, with the extraordinarily high burden of proof knowledge brings with it, in fact fairly well does make it so.

Nor do we know who actually shot down the jetliner,.

Considering Germany determined the rebels did it, and the rebels themselves have admitted to doing it, yeah, I can be pretty damn sure the rebels did it.

Parry and RT are the ones who have claimed it was an attempted assassination of Putin by the Ukrainian military.

[Octafish]

21. Got a link for any of that?

Like I wrote: your word doesn't cut it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Also here. BBC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29702522?ocid=global_bbccom_email_21102014_top+news+stories

[Octafish]

15. Thanks, Tierra_y_Libertad! Here's what Ukraine is all about...

Ukraine, Chevron, Condi Rice and shale gas ... join the dots

High principles dominate the rhetoric on freedom-loving Ukraine, writes JP Sottile. But more mundane realities - like the interests of US oil corporations and Ukraine's vast shale gas capacity - might just be part of the volatile equation.

JP Sottile
TheEcologist.org, 18th March 2014

In Ukraine, Chevron's deal continues a long tradition of intermarriage between 'national' and corporate interests under the guise of national security.

Some say it's about freedom and the right to self-determination. Some say it's about standing up to aggression and halting a dictator's march.

Some say it's about the future of everything-from Syria to North Korea to Iran's nuclear program - and, according to Sen. Lindsey Graham, it all stems from Obama's failure to kill the people who killed Americans at Benghazi.

But the most-revealing voice in the chorus is Condi Rice. She penned a tension-filled op-ed on Ukraine for the Washington Post - the newspaper of broken records.

Her nostalgic, "Baby, It's a Cold War Outside" ditty on the "Ukrainian Problem" came just two days after a Teflon-coated Henry Kissinger opined about the "art of establishing priorities" in his own Ukraine-themed op-ed for the Post.

Why should we care about Condi?

As the world learned through painful experience, Condi Rice, much like Henry Kissinger, was all about establishing priorities. But now that she's out of power, why should anyone waste any time considering Ms. Rice's opinion about anything, much less about the 'crisis' in Ukraine?

Why? Because it's telling. Like most American Exceptionalists, her bluster and posturing can be reverse-engineered to find the banal truth about US foreign policy.

For example, her steadfast belief that Ukraine "should not be a pawn in a great-power conflict but rather an independent nation" might have something to do with Chevron's 50-year lease to develop Ukraine's shale gas reserves.

CONTINUED...

http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2325091/ukraine_chevron_condi_rice_and_shale_gas_join_the_dots.html

When someone didn't like the deal, they had to exit stage right.

[malaise]

22. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Shocked I tell you - NOT

[Ykcutnek]

24. If we had cluster bombs in the Civil War, we should have used them on the Confederates. nt