Woman who had contact with Ebola victims quarantined after Newark landing - UPDATE below

[B2G]

Last edited Fri Oct 24, 2014, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

It appears the woman has a fever.

http://7online.com/health/passenger-quarantined-after-treating-ebola-patients-in-africa-develops-fever/364779/

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October 24, 2014, 4:02 PM Last updated: Friday, October 24, 2014, 4:55 PM
By SHAWN BOBURG

The governors of New York and New Jersey on Friday announced a mandatory 21-day quarantine for high-risk travelers from West Africa who have had contact with Ebola patients, saying that a woman who arrived at Newark this afternoon has already been isolated.

The two said they are not satisfied with federal guidelines established by the federal Centers of Disease Control.

New Jersey officials have quarantined a woman who arrived at Newark Liberty International Airport from a West African country and reported having had contact with Ebola victims, Governor Christie said. He and New York Gov. Cuomo said that decided to implement a mandatory quarantine in discussions that began on Thursday, when a doctor in New York was diagnosed as having Ebola. He had recently arrived home from Guinea, where he had been treating Ebola patients.

“We’re agreed that quarantine is the right way to go,” Christie said at a press conference on Friday.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/woman-who-had-contact-with-ebola-victims-quarantined-after-newark-landing-1.1117698

[B2G]

1. More here

"In the first application of the new set of standards, the states are quarantining a female healthcare worker returning from Africa who took care of Ebola patients. She is not sick, but the governors made the decision to quarantine anyway. It is a unilateral decision by the states.

In the first application of the standards, the two states are quarantining a female health-care worker returning from Africa to Newark Liberty Airport who took care of Ebola patients. She is not sick, but they made the decision to quarantine her anyway.

Gov. Cuomo said of Dr. Craig Spencer, "He's a doctor and even he didn't follow the voluntary quarantine, let's be honest."

"We are no longer relying on CDC standards, these are New York and New Jersey standards. And we need New York and New Jersey health officials to work with the CDC to make sure our standards are met before admission to either states," said Gov. Christie."

http://7online.com/uncategorized/gov-christie-woman-who-arrived-at-newark-and-had-contact-with-ebola-victims-quarantined/364779/

[woodsprite]

2. You know, I don't agree with Christie on pretty much anything that he says,

but I do think this is the right way to handle it. And IMO, not relying solely on the CDC standards is probably a good thing until they get their act together.

[morningfog]

5. Not one person has been infected in the US outside

Of one hospital from on patient.

No one in the US has ever been infected pre-isolation. This measure, while more than what the CDC says necessary, does not change the CDC's success in preventing infections in the general public.

[pnwmom]

96. What this quarantine will do is prevent the need for a much larger quarantine in the event

that this woman comes down with Ebola in the next few weeks.

Good call.

[seabeyond]

97. she is stuck in a room. has none of her stuff. one granola bar and water. no information.

this woman is allowed none of her rights, and you cheer? she has broken no laws. she has no symptoms. and her freedom curtailed.

rah.... u.s. of a.

feeling an awful like the beginnings of the patriot act, and homeland security of bushco time.

[pnwmom]

98. They can get her what she needs. This is no different from quarantines when I was growing up,

for serious illnesses like Scarlet Fever.

She will survive this quarantine, and it will prevent the need for any further quarantine of other people related to her exposure. Good idea.

[Texasgal]

109. How do people make a living

with these forced quarantines? What about anyone that has children? Pets? Family to take care of?

How does this work exactly?

[Crunchy Frog]

117. What were they doing about those things while they were in Africa? n/t

[Texasgal]

119. Uh, maybe they had family and friends?

I have no idea.

You didn't answer the question. What happens to their jobs, family or pets when they get back?

I went on vacation for a week and had my dogs kenneled. I came back and went back to work because there is NO way I could afford to hang out for 21 MORE days.

[pnwmom]

123. And they have family and friends to help them while they're in quarantine,in addition

to the people assigned by the state to assist them.

[Texasgal]

126. Financially?

How? And at what amount are you talking?

Is the state gonna pay the mortgage? Dog kenneling?

[pnwmom]

128. By quarantining this one woman, they'll avoid quarantine for all her contacts, in case

she comes down with Ebola. Better to quarantine one person now than dozens later.

[Texasgal]

129. You are still avoiding the question.

How much to we financially cover for "forced" quarantine?

[pnwmom]

130. How do we pay for the costs of contact-tracing for those people who walk around

with Ebola for days before diagnosis? Should we charge them for the costs if they end up being diagnosed after breaking a quarantine?

I don't think so. I'd rather they just stick to the quarantine. Yes,it will cost them, but having Ebola will cost them more -- and anyone else they might infect if they're walking around and they start to vomit.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/23/nyregion/new-york-city-ebola-patient-timeline-map.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[Texasgal]

132. Your posts reminds me of communist China.

Forced quarantine is bullshit and it shows because you still cannot answer a very basic question.

I'd also like to know what safeguards we have in place to make sure that these people do not lose their jobs or livelihoods? Wait... don't answer. There are none... zero...zilch... nada.

Very scary. You have no answers but you still are okay with forcing quarantine. Really scary.

[pnwmom]

134. You can't answer the related question. Who should pay for the costs of the contact tracing when an

Ebola exposed person violates quarantine and goes out in public --and then gets diagnosed?

Nothing about Ebola is fair or convenient or inexpensive. But quarantines are a historical fact and -- before the advent of antibiotics, vaccines, and other health advances -- were a common public health measure for limiting life-threatening illnesses. They are a standard public health measure that have nothing to do with Communist China. You are lucky you have grown up in an era where this has not occurred before. But I can remember quarantines for Scarlet Fever and Polio. No one accused the health authorities of acting like communists then and no one should be now.

[Texasgal]

140. jesus.. this is NOT scarlet fever!

Explain to me how Mr. Duncan's family did not contract it?

The issue here is that there is a freak out when it is NOT warranted. To answer your question forced quarantine is NOT necessary at this time. We do not need this. Ebola is NOT easy to catch. The freak out is ridiculous. I just went through 8 hours of CDC training. I am a surgical nurse and I am NOT scared. I am more scared by people that want to "forcibly" quarantine me for 21 days.

With that can you NOW answer MY question or are you just being sly?

[pnwmom]

174. My friend didn't get Scarlet Fever, either, even though her family was quarantined

with it after a brother came down with it. And neither did anyone else I know, because the quarantine worked.

I already answered your question. I said they should pass a law requiring employers to pay salaries while employees are quarantined.

[pnwmom]

120. Same thing they did during the quarantines of the fifties. They made do.

We could also pass a law requiring employers to pay for time off during quarantines,just as we do with jury duty.

[Texasgal]

125. Oh yes. That'll work.

Uh, and in Texas your employer does not have to pay you for jury duty, they just cannot fire you.

[JDPriestly]

177. Public health is at issue. And 21 days is not that long.

I favor quarantines for those who may have a disease that is very dangerous. The quarantine is 21 days. That is not that bad. The public health risk should someone ignore symptoms or fail to report exposure is too great.

[seabeyond]

186. then, all medical staff in u.s. dealing with ebola goes into quarantine. ems, and other supportive

roles toward the care of ebola victims go into quarantine.

tell me. do they go into quarantine after one shift for 21 days?

do we lock them in the hospital until the patient lives or dies, then their 21 days start?

because, if you do not do the same, for all those that come in contact with ebola, then, well... it appears batant bigotry, or dumbassery.

[morningfog]

161. Which would also be unecessary. Bad call.

[Warpy]

70. First, CDC standards have been updated

Second, there is a better way to handle this than a three week quarantine of people who are healthy. This will only cause people to fly to alternative airports and falsify their travel history, both counterproductive.

People coming from the hot zones know what this disease will do if it goes untreated. They are quite motivated to come for treatment early rather than late because early treatment provides the best outcome.

Christie is an ass. He's also bucking for votes from people who are scaring themselves stupid over this. Sadly, it will work.

[uppityperson]

71. That is one of the best posts I've seen on this, thank you."People coming from the hot zones know.."

People coming from the hot zones know what this disease will do if it goes untreated. They are quite motivated to come for treatment early rather than late because early treatment provides the best outcome.

[TorchTheWitch]

100. Mr. Duncan came from a hot zone

He went untreated for several days until his symptoms were grave yet didn't bother telling anyone that he'd recently come from a hot zone and had direct contact with a woman who lived in the same house as him that died of Ebola. Even when he first went to the hospital for treatment. He just left and went back home to get even more ill. Some people here have claimed that he had no idea he had Ebola. That simply doesn't square with this new belief that anyone that comes from a hot zone knows all about the disease and what will happen if they don't get immediate treatment. Well, Mr. Duncan is one known case that blows this theory out of the water. Other than the recent Dr. Spencer who was in Guinea treating Ebola patients Mr. Duncan is the only Ebola patient that arrived here healthy yet incubating the virus.

[malokvale77]

105. You are making shit up about Mr. Duncan...

or repeating others made up shit.

[TorchTheWitch]

121. what's made up shit?

He came here either knowingly or unknowingly incubating Ebola. When he got symptoms he went to the ER where they didn't realize what he had, and he didn't tell them that he thought it might be Ebola either because he didn't know that's what he had or he just thought the doctor's erroneous diagnosis of some infection or other virus was the cause or he was just fearful of saying that he thought he might have Ebola. Whatever his reason, he left the hospital to go back to his family for two more days while getting much more gravely ill and thankfully not infecting anyone that lived there or the EMT's that came to get him.

Mr. Duncan is only one of two people that came to the US not knowing that they were already incubating the virus. The other person is a doctor that had been treating Ebola patients in Guinea, and because of his profession and the work he was doing of course knew when he started getting symptoms what it might be.

This blows the theory that anyone coming to the country from a hot zone would know all about Ebola and would immediately recognize the symptoms if they get them as Ebola and would know to get immediate treatment for their known Ebola. Because one out of only two people that came here without symptoms yet incubating the virus without their knowledge did NOT know all about Ebola and knew to get immediate treatment for Ebola - Mr. Duncan. The only other person was a doctor treating Ebola patients in West Africa and of course would know that his symptoms were likely Ebola and what to do about it, so he doesn't really count. That leaves one person that came to this country unknowingly incubating Ebola that did not follow this theory that they'd know and know what to do about.

Now, point out where I've said anything at all that is "made up shit" about Mr. Duncan in either of my posts. I'll wait.

[malokvale77]

127. This part...

"yet didn't bother telling anyone that he'd recently come from a hot zone and had direct contact with a woman who lived in the same house as him that died of Ebola."

That is made up shit.

[pnwmom]

131. He did tell them he came from Liberia. He didn't tell them he carried a dying Ebola patient

to the hospital and back.

[pnwmom]

136. I didn't say that. Someone else did.n/t

[uppityperson]

138. My apologies, I got you and torch the witch mixed up. sorry. nt

[TorchTheWitch]

159. and you know this how?

The fact is Mr. Duncan went with the ill woman, her brother, her father and whoever drove the taxi to the hospital. They first took her to the maternity ward believing that her illness had something to do with her pregnancy. Then were then instructed to take her to the Ebola ward, which they did, and were turned away because there was no more room in the Ebola ward.

Now really, why on earth would they have taken her to the Ebola ward and attempt to have her admitted there where she would be in close proximity to many other Ebola patients and WOULD have admitted her there had she not been turned away if they didn't believe that she had Ebola? If they were told to take her to the Ebola ward they had to have learned that's what she had, and they proved it by taking her to that ward and trying to have her admitted.

These were not stupid people. Mr. Duncan was middle class with a good job and could afford to take this trip to the US where he planned on settling, getting a job and eventually becoming a citizen. Hell, he had a cellphone or iPhone far more elaborate then mine.

He lied on the questionnaire in order to get on the plane in Liberia to the question had he been in direct contact with anyone who was ill. Well, of course he knew that he had direct contact with an ill person, he helped to carry her back into the house from the taxi after she was rejected from the Ebola ward.

It isn't possible that he nor anyone else in the family would not have learned that she had Ebola after her being rejected from the Ebola ward at the hospital having been sent to that ward by the maternity ward. And there's no way that any of them would allowed her to be put into an Ebola ward with all those other infected Ebola patients that would more than likely pass on that infection to her if they didn't believe that she had Ebola? Would YOU? Of course you wouldn't since you aren't dumb as a brick either.

No one has any evidence that he didn't know what that woman he helped to and from the hospital, and there is way too much evidence that he had to have known. Which is probably why none of the people that were in that house with him while he was so gravely ill ended up becoming infected themselves though it was reported that he was vomiting and having diarrhea like crazy. He had to have known to not let anyone care for him or clean up after his bouts of sickness because had they not known they would have and would have likely become infected had they done so not knowing he had Ebola since that's exactly why it is the home care people and those that clean up after the bouts of sickness and their linens that end up being the so many of the ones being infected in Africa.

[malokvale77]

163. I am so glad that you have it all figured out.

Infallible humans are so rare.

Hat's off to you.

[uppityperson]

113. That is why he sought treatment including he came from Liberia. He didn't know she had died of ebola

The hospital says he told them, twice, during his first visit. And is why he sought treatment. It is a shame that those at the hospital did not listen to him.

As for your continuing to say he knew that pregnant woman died of ebola, there is no proof of that and his and her family directly say he did not know.

MrDuncan sought treatment when he got symptoms and the hospital says he told them TWICE he came from Liberia.

[pnwmom]

133. How did the family find out then that she had died? She died while he was still in the country

so I bet he heard about it, since he was close enough to them to be asked to carry her.

[uppityperson]

137. Her family knew she'd died when they saw her dead body.

"How did the family find out then that she had died?" They looked at her. She was dead. wtf.

Her family says they didn't know at the time and Mr Duncan didn't know she died of ebola. Me Duncan's family says he didn't know she died of ebola.

[pnwmom]

139. Uh-huh. And they didn't notice all the Ebola symptoms she no doubt had? Hard to believe,

given how messy that disease is.

They were all in denial. Full blown Ebola would be hard to miss.

[uppityperson]

141. They said they thought it was pregnancy complications. People dying don't all bleed all over the

place, contrary to popular literature.

It can be dramatic, or it can be less so.

http://www.africareview.com/Special-Reports/-/979182/1472576/-/vhdyxoz/-/index.html

On whether victims wear zombie-like faces, infectious disease expert Dr Philippe Calain says: “At the end of the disease the patient does not look, from the outside, as horrible as you can read in some books. They are not melting. They are not full of blood. They’re in shock, muscular shock. They are not unconscious, but you would say ‘obtunded’, dull, quiet, very tired.”

Here is a link to my older thread about interesting articles about pregnant women there, it explains why this can happen. It is beyond what we here in the USA would expect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025660116

[malokvale77]

154. Do you have any clue how many tropical...

diseases have those symptoms. The 2 year old in Mali tested positive for typhoid. She died from ebola.

Mr. Duncan was a decent man who told them all he knew when he sought medical care.

Put blame where it is due. The for profit medical industry.

[Logical]

173. Nearly everything you say is incorrect. Nt

[TorchTheWitch]

148. he did not tell the hospital that he suspected he had Ebola

All he told them was that he had recently come from either Liberia or West Africa and likely thought they would know that meant that he might have Ebola. He was misdiagnosed as having some sort of infection or other virus, given antibiotics and sent home. He stayed home for two more days becoming gravely ill while not telling anyone that he suspected he had Ebola either because he didn't know or believed the ER doctor was correct in his misdiagnosis or maybe he was just accustomed to people being turned away from hospitals as was happening in his own country.

WHATEVER the reason was that he did not tell anyone on his first ER visit when he first started having symptoms he left the hospital with a prescription for antibiotics and remained at home for two more days becoming more violently ill until someone finally called an ambulance for him. It was his nephew that suddenly became suspicious that he might have Ebola and called the CDC. He was misdiagnosed at that first hospital ER visit because no one KNEW that he might have Ebola. His telling the where he had arrived from did not ring any bells to anyone in the ER as it should have had hospitals actually been prepared to be getting Ebola patients which the CDC was at the time claiming we wouldn't get.

Therefore, the theory that anyone coming from one of the hot zones would know all about Ebola, know what any symptoms would signal they might be infected with it and immediately seek treatment for Ebola knowing that their chances were better by getting treatment immediately doesn't hole water. Because this is not at ALL what occurred in Mr. Duncan's case and with him being one of only two people that have come into this country so far unknowingly incubating the virus but not yet having symptoms. The other of the two is a doctor who had been treating Ebola patients and of course would know all about Ebola, what symptoms to look for and what to do if he started showing symptoms.

So tell me again how this theory that anyone coming into this country from a hot zone would know all about Ebola, know what symptoms to look for and immediately seek treatment for possible Ebola infection is so brilliant. Because so far it's been a big fat FLOP.

And now we find out that the nurse in question that NJ/NY believed should be quarantined has started showing a fever. Good thing they quarantined her when everyone was saying how stupid quarantining her or anyone else in her same position would be. Had they let her go on her way the CDC would then have to track down who knows how many people and warn them they may have had contact with a possibly infected Ebola patient scaring the shit out of them while they too then have to self-monitor and any business she may have entered would have to be disinfected to assure customers that it's same to do business there causing far more trouble to who knows how many other people and more time and expense. By quarantining that one person no one else would then need to be tracked and scared shitless while they self-monitor, no businesses would have to disinfect to assure customers that it's safe to do business there, and on and on.

[uppityperson]

155. He told them he came from Liberia. He did not know he had carried a woman with ebola.

You wrote "didn't bother telling anyone that he'd recently come from a hot zone" which is false. The hospital says he told them twice and they missed it, ignored it, didn't bother noticing.

"WHATEVER the reason was that he did not tell anyone on his first ER visit " that he was from a hot zone? He did. That is false that he did not.

He got sick. He sought treatment. The hospital discharged him. The hospital is at fault. The other 3 people sought help as soon as they became symptomatic, Dr Spencer called before he had a high enough fever to fit the CDC's list of when to call.

What did NOT work was the hospital in Dallas not listening to MrDuncan, not paying attention to his travel history. They caused the problem with Mr Duncan and with the 2 nurses who became infected.

"And now we find out that the nurse in question that NJ/NY believed should be quarantined has started showing a fever." What is her fever?

"Any business she may have entered would have to be disinfected to assure customers that it's same to do business". I am sorry you are so frightened and misinformed about how ebola is caught. It must be difficult, being so frightened. None of Mr Duncan's family who lived in contaminated quarters for a week got it. I am sorry you are so scared that you would be afraid to enter a business a person with a fever entered.

[dilby]

3. What better way to make sure no one goes to help in West Africa.

Go to West Africa to help and get 21 days of unpaid vacation.

[morningfog]

6. It's a reactionary, fear-based decision.

[mnhtnbb]

8. Yes. Politicians seeking votes.

[dilby]

9. I know, it's to make soccer moms feel safe.

Just like throwing Japanese Americans in Internment Camps during WWII made soccer moms feel safe. This is a disgusting way to treat medical professionals, every professional who has come down with Ebola was monitoring themselves and notified the Medical Community the second they started to show signs. Now we have Politicians deciding what is best for Medicine, hell let's let them start deciding who needs cancer treatment too.

[morningfog]

10. It will lead to people not going to help and lying

upon entry. And completely unecessary. No a good outcome for anyone.

[seabeyond]

11. lying upon entry, is what i went to immediately. have a stupid nonsensical rule, and

people will get around it.

[AngryAmish]

180. Hard to lie about a passport stamped with Liberia and the date

[morningfog]

190. The passport says nothing on what the person did.

This quarantine is only for health workers.

And passports are not necessarily stamped.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. Know your own history: For 20 years, until 2010, the US imposed a travel ban on visitors with HIV

The did that to make Straight American feel safe. And for 20 years, Straight America was happy to leave it in place, knowing it was useless and discriminatory. I'm sure you posted about it extensively....

[azmom]

78. WTF, I never knew about that

That's shameful.

[dilby]

192. That is not even an apples to apples comparison.

The US imposed travel bans on foreign travelers not US citizens and it was only on travelers who the US knew had HIV. For your example to even be an apples to apples comparison it would mean the US quarantined for 6 months any healthcare worker that came in contact with an HIV positive person.

[pnwmom]

99. No more reactionary than quarantines against Scarlet Fever or Polio when I was growing up.

When the disease is life threatening and there is no vaccine or reliable treatment, this is standard medical procedure.

[mnhtnbb]

7. Really. This policy wouldn't have caught Mr. Duncan

as he didn't know--or said he didn't know--he'd had contact with an Ebola patient.

[Crunchy Frog]

162. It would have.

Under this new policy, he wouldn't have been quarantined (or he may have been depending on what info they got during the interview process) but he would have been closely monitored, and he would have been hospitalized and isolated as soon as he developed symptoms, not left to moulder in an apartment for days, getting sicker and sicker, and putting his loved ones lives at risk.

Anyone else who arrives from Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone, but who did not come in contact with someone with Ebola, will be monitored by the state health departments for 21 days, the incubation period before signs of the disease can show. Anyone else who arrives from Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone, but who did not come in contact with someone with Ebola, will be monitored by the state health departments for 21 days, the incubation period before signs of the disease can show. http://www.northjersey.com/news/woman-in-isolation-with-fever-after-newark-landing-ny-nj-announce-new-ebola-quarantine-policy-1.1117698#sthash.ZaJZFhwe.dpuf

[mnhtnbb]

168. Not from my reading. This refers to the State of NJ and State of NY.

Mr. Duncan went on to Texas. Unless the State of Texas signs on to monitoring
people, no one would track him.

[Crunchy Frog]

170. I thought you meant if he had been subject to the new regulations in NY and NJ.

Sorry for being confused.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. How does this stop aid from going to the affected areas?

[dilby]

14. The 21 day unpaid vacation upon return.

Can you take almost a month out of your life?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. You mean, like if I was a doctor who could leave my private practice to do internat'l charity work?

[dilby]

16. Which you probably did during your paid vacation.

Which most of these doctors do.

[LisaL]

17. They are not supposed to back to work for 21 days anyway.

Or at least they are "discouraged" from it.


"However, returned staff members are discouraged from returning to work during the 21-day period. Field assignments are extremely challenging and people need to regain energy. In addition, people who return to work too quickly could catch a simple bacterial or viral infection (common cold, bronchitis, flu etc.) that may have symptoms similar to Ebola. This can create needless stress and anxiety for the person involved and his/her colleagues. For this reason, MSF continues to provide salaries to returned staff for the 21-day period."

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/msf-protocols-staff-returning-ebola-affected-countries

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. "Paid vacation"?

I was always under the impression they saved the money they earned.

[magical thyme]

29. Dr. Spencer was already not working on his return

and when Samaritan's Purse brought back its healthcare workers after Brantly and Writebol were infected, it required them to enter a 21 day quarantine. They set them up in a kind of campground, which the returnees named "Camp Ebola."

I think it makes sense. It's not even about the risk, which is miniscule when they are not symptomatic, but the hassle, the damage to small businesses, etc.

It's a tough assignment in Africa, and frankly they probably need rest and recuperation time. They should do it in a way that doesn't disrupt other people.

On the other hand, as other's have written, what about healthcare workers here? Will the Belleview staff be quarantined for 21 days after treating Dr. Spencer?

[LisaL]

39. Yes. They are not working anyway. MSF is paying them for 21 days.

Putting them in quarantine makes sense to me.
Because self-monitoring doesn't prevent them from going to public places.
Not sure about workers here.
I am pretty sure CDC came up with a new rules for them after Nina and Amber got infected. But I can't find what these new rules are.

[Tumbulu]

158. Yep! Only way to make it palatable is to pay

people for lost pay and extra expenses incurred. But why can't they go home and be at home under quarantine? If they have put this woman in a hotel, won't the hotel staff be at risk should she develop symptoms?

[LisaL]

4. Good. Someone who had contact with Ebola victims should be quarantined.

Self-monitoring is not sufficient.

[morningfog]

21. How many people in the US have been infected by

Someone under self monitoring?

I'll answer for you: zero.

[LisaL]

23. Well, we only had few patients so far.

Incubation period is not even up yet.

[morningfog]

24. So, zero is the correct answer. You have nothing

other than baseless paranoia to suggest self monitoring is insufficient.

[LisaL]

27. I thought you promised to put me on ignore?

[morningfog]

164. I'll take that as a confirmation that you have no evidence that self monitoring is

insufficient.

[Logical]

185. I thought about it. But too entertaining reading your rants about your Ebola expertise. nt

[polichick]

153. True.

[Logical]

184. LOL, well working pretty damn well so far. Do more reading! nt

[gwheezie]

13. Stupid

this is just giving into fear and has no basis in reality. There have been american healthcare workers who took care of an Ebola patient here and both got ebola. There's staff at 2 hospitals that just got done taking care of Ebola patients are they being quarantined? How about the staff taking care of spencer? Are they quarantined to Bellevue?? I just don't get this.

[morningfog]

19. It is only going to hurt efforts to contain it.

Utter stupidity. Public health decisions should not be based on politics, which this is.

[seabeyond]

20. point. so al those taking care of ebola victims here in the u.s., must self quarantine after what?

one shift?

they too are around ebola. they too take the risk like the doctors coming in. just what is being said here?

[LisaL]

22. After two nursed got infected, they are considered at risk.

So I am pretty sure they are under monitoring protocol here as well.

[seabeyond]

25. yes. which is different from taking them off the job and quarantining them for 21 days. how would

that work? any care giving position, the medical staff is facing possibility, just as those coming into the country. so, one shift, they are off the floor, out of a job for 21 days, until they are cleared?

[LisaL]

28. They can take care of Ebola patient but not of other patients.

[gwheezie]

32. Can they get on a bus?

go shopping? Go home?

[seabeyond]

35. then what? then they go among the public. so, per this new rule, they should not be allowed.

i got it. you choose to help the ebola patient, you must live in the hospital until the virus no longer shows up. then, at that point, no more job or pay for 21 days.

right?

quarantine from the get go. locked in to serve.

we do not want hysteria or anything.

[gwheezie]

26. Are they quarantined

no they are being monitored.

[seabeyond]

31. we are gonna go thru the medical staff awfully quickly, and the janitors and other supportive roles.

if we are gonna make fuckin ridiculous rules, they might as well be consistent. the two that got it in the u.s. were treating in the u.s.

all medical staff, one shift then off the clock for 21 days, no pay.

fuck that, right?

[gwheezie]

40. I think we need to at least be consistent

I have no problem with health dept monitoring but I don't see a point of quarantining everyone who took/takes care of an Ebola patient.
The health dept could make home visits twice a day to monitor people for elevated temps and symptoms. If you have 200 people who have been exposed you could do 5 to 10 visits a day. Hire the staff until we have no ebola patients. That seems like a middle ground between self monitoring and locking everyone in their homes.
It just doesn't make sense to me to have a false sense of security that we quarantine just people coming from ebola countries.

Of course if there is close contact in a non clinical setting like the fiancée or someone living with a symptomatic person who is confirmed ebola it would make sense to quarantine. I just don't see the benefit of being reactive rather than think it through whenever we get scared.

[LisaL]

41. We all saw that people on self-monitoring are not keeping at home.

Getting on the plane, going on a cruise, going bowling, using public transportation.
So self-monitoring doesn't appear to be very useful.

[gwheezie]

44. Ok so back to my question

should we quarantine healthcare workers who took care of Pham and Vinson? How about the people taking care of Spencer?

[gwheezie]

82. Do what nigeria did

have the health dept do monitored visits

[uppityperson]

142. Since Dr Spencer caught himself before he became contagious, before his temp hit reporting level, it

seems to have worked pretty well. Yes, he was out and about when NOT contagious and caught himself quickly with a low grade, non-reportable fever, getting to the hospital before he became contagious. Your complaint is what? It worked?

[morningfog]

169. Yet kit one infection ever from a self-monitoring person.

Not once. Not ever.

[gwheezie]

30. Is it just me

or does it seem like only people who have been to Africa have to be quarantined.
Can you imagine if politicians came out and demanded that any and all staff here be quarantined.

[seabeyond]

33. absolutely. makes absolutely not a bit of fuckin sense. but, hey, if it appeases the masses,

wtf not.

makes NO sense.

[magical thyme]

34. I guess they figure hospitals aren't short-staffed enough yet.

[davidn3600]

36. But they are not following protocol

They are hopping on airplanes to go bridal shopping or the subway to go bowling...WHILE SHOWING SYMPTOMS!

[seabeyond]

37. so, you want to lock up all caregivers to ebola victim. right? what, after one shift? lock them up?

call in the next medical team, one shift, lock them up. and on and on.

that is doable ot you? cause if we do it to the people coming in, we need to do it to our medical help here in the u.s.

one shift, and you are done for 21 days. no pay. next....

[Louisiana1976]

38. Who can afford 21 days without pay?

[seabeyond]

48. true. but, for those that would prefer to ignore facts and be fearful, that seems to be what they

suggest without a care for those doing the job of taking care of ebola patients.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. ok, what's your solution?

since it has been shown that both nurses and doctors, after having been exposed, seem to not care about the potential for spreading the disease what exactly would you do? monitoring? so, they are monitoring, decide to go on a short trip and then, mid-trip, show symptoms... do you expect they'll think it's a cold and keep traveling? will you be satisfied when one more person gets the disease and dies?

sP

[uppityperson]

49. "since it has been shown...seem not to care"? Where, when has that "been shown"?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

61. have a fever... travel anyway and act like it's not a fever...

but hey...

sP

[uppityperson]

63. once again...not one question answered.

"since it has been shown that both nurses and doctors, after having been exposed, seem to not care about the potential for spreading the disease".

Where, when, with who has "it been shown"?

[gwheezie]

53. All three of them self reported

when they had symptoms according to the cdc. No one had to track them down.
So make the cdc guidelines stricter and get the health dept to do daily visits with the contacts. And I go back to this. There are people taking care of an Ebola patient now and they are allowed to leave the hospital. If you want to quarantine everyone taking care of an Ebola patient why then let them leave the hospital? Why quarantine people coming from Africa?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

60. and we shall see who's next...

once again... not one question answered...

sP

[seabeyond]

54. that is an absurdly false premise. nurses and doctors do not care. bullshit.

what they have is factual info and know, that without the symptoms they are not contagious and when getting them, THRU SELF MONITORING, took the appropriate measure.

at this point, self monitoring has worked.

what is yours? one shift and a medical person goes into quarantine for 21 days no pay?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. i asked you your idea

but you don't have one... you just seem to think that the doctors and nurses running around with this shit know everything about how to contain it.

nice job of deflecting and not answering ONE question... typical.

sP

[seabeyond]

62. the answer is what has worked so far. so i ask you. one shift and we quarantine medical staff for

21 days?

is that what the people on this thread are suggesting?

[uppityperson]

66. "since it has been shown that both nurses and doctors, after having been exposed, seem to not care"?

You start with a false premise, ask questions based on that and get snarky when people call you on the false premise? To quote you "typical"

[Marrah_G]

104. They probably know more about it then almost anyone on the planet.

These doctors and nurses risked their lives and worked their asses off to save lives.

[Cal Carpenter]

182. Yeah, because all these doctors and nurses running around

with this shit have infected so many people....

oh wait....

THEY HAVEN'T. Because they are self-monitoring and reporting, and getting help when they show symptoms. Because (much to even my surprise) the system is actually working here, at least in terms of this aspect of things.

As others have pointed out, your question is based on a false premise. So there is no answer, because you are asking the wrong freaking question.

The media fear-frenzy is disgusting, and it is making people believe and get hung up on lies and misinformation.

[kestrel91316]

72. Your best post ever.

And the ignoramuses in Congress want everyone, including our troops DOING CONSTRUCTION over there to have a 21-day "waiting period" over there (during which they could still get infected, rofl) as the best way to keep it from coming here.

People who don't know anything about epidemiology need to be barred from having any say in epidemiological decision making.

[gwheezie]

84. We've already had troops return

from Liberia. They returned a week or ago. People were running up to them hugging and kissing them. They landed on Virginia.

[seabeyond]

85. quarantine them all. the huggers and kissers, and the ones that came home. without pay. i am sure

many that try to survive on that minimum wage will be honored to be locked up for 21 days, cause of others unfounded fear.

[kestrel91316]

88. Quarantine ALL medical personnel who treat Ebola cases in the US

as soon as they get off their shift for a full 21 days. Yep. That'll keep us safe, just like duct tape and plastic sheeting.

Of course we'll run out of medical personnel for treating EVERYTHING ELSE in pretty short order if we take that approach.

[seabeyond]

91. or, we have to conclude, it is just downright, ugly ass, bigotry at work here. nt

[kestrel91316]

93. Yep. I think we both know they are assuming the only people who ever come from

West Africa are BLACK PEOPLE looking for free medical care and librul do-gooders who were working for those commies at MSF.

[kestrel91316]

87. Yep, because they HAD NO CONTACT WITH PEOPLE ILL WITH EBOLA.

You people need to take virology 101 and immunology 101 and epidemiology 101 before you go repeating all the tired old RW fascist talking points and IMPRISONING PEOPLE who are no risk to anyone.

[gwheezie]

90. Sorry it wasn't what I meant

We have people including those in congress who are making wild statements about anyone coming from Africa demanding people are held somewhere so they feel secure. I was just trying to make the point we've had troops coming back and they don't require quarantine. No one in the military is freaking out.

[malokvale77]

116. Yes, you are right...

My grandson is stationed in Virginia. He is absolutely ashamed of the public reaction in this country.

Being from Texas, he is even more ashamed of the Texas failure.

[malokvale77]

146. Some here don't seem to understand the difference...

in monitoring and quarantine. There is a lot of fear and ignorance going around.

Please don't get yourself booted.

[gwheezie]

42. Then do what nigeria did

hire people to make daily visits to those contacts to monitor them for early symptoms. By the quarantine logic everyone in contact with Vinson or Pham should be quarantined.

[uppityperson]

45. Give us a link showing either of those happened. No link, no proof, just words.

"They are hopping on airplanes to go bridal shopping or the subway to go bowling...WHILE SHOWING SYMPTOMS!"

Let's see any link you have showing anyone did that "WHILE SHOWING SYMPTOMS!"

[Cal Carpenter]

179. "They" did follow the protocol at the time

and, as far as Amber Vinson & Nina Pham are concerned, we can be pretty certain that they did not infect anyone at this point. As for the doctor, only more time will tell for certain, but self-monitoring worked and he went to the hospital promptly when his temperature was elevated. There is no reason to assume he infected anyone.

So what exactly is the problem? Honing and tightening up the protocols is one thing, but there is no need to go overboard or put HCWs on forced lockdown/isolation unless and until they have elevated temps or other symptoms.

The biggest problem seems to the the risk to the health care workers themselves while they are providing care to ebola patients, and if we are trying to reduce the spread of the disease, that should be a major focus (protective gear etc). The only new cases in the US have been among those caring for patients, not those who have self-monitored and gotten help when needed.

[Crunchy Frog]

166. Don't let facts get in the way of hyperbole. n/t

[Cal Carpenter]

183. Smarter at assuaging irrational fear to gain political points?

[hrmjustin]

101. The woman has developed a fever. Looks smart now!

[Cal Carpenter]

188. Spreading the risk?

He self-monitored and went to the hospital when his temp was elevated. There is no indication that he spread anything to anyone. We won't know for sure, of course, for another 20 days or so. But given that even Mr Duncan didn't infect his family, much further along in the the disease and in close quarters, and given all other epidemiological evidence, there is no reason to assume that the doctor spread anything.

The only people who have contracted ebola within the US are direct health care workers who worked with infected patients near the end of their lives. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

Irrational fear is a powerful thing, and a dangerous one when media exacerbates it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. What is their definition of 'quarantine'? Locked in a hospital room?

Allowed visitors in the room? Only on the other side of glass?

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. What was that quarantine?

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. OK, so they were still in their own homes.

As someone says above, if this 'makes sense', they should also be preventing the people who are treating Dr. Spencer from having contact with anyone else (even in the hospital, let alone allowing them to go home), since they are, like this woman, treating an Ebola patient while wearing protective clothing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. The reports above say the woman being quarantined was wearing protective clothing

when she had contact with Ebola patients, and you're saying it's common sense to force her into quarantine. So your common sense must also want those currently treating an Ebola patient in quarantine too. You should be demanding they must stay in the area of the hospital where Dr. Spencer is, for 21 days after he recovers or dies.

[muriel_volestrangler]

178. No, it is the same thing - they are going to quarantine anyone who treated a patient at any stage

if they did it in Africa, whatever the protective clothing they used. That must mean that anyone who treats a patient at any stage, in the USA, whatever the protective clothing they use, should be, by this rule, quarantined for the period they give the treatment, and for 21 days after as well.

"Those treating the American patients are involved in ebola cases that were treated very early in the diagnosis. NOT the same thing."

It is the same thing. They continued, and are continuing, to treat the Ebola patients. If Mr. Duncan had been put in isolation the minute he went to that hospital in Dallas, then all the nurses, doctors and other workers who had contact with him until he died would need to be, under your scheme, in quarantine.

[uppityperson]

67. All the people working in the hospital caring for an ebola patient will need forced quarantine too?

Nurses, doctors, cleaning people, lab people, people in radiology, pharmacists, etc etc etc.

[seabeyond]

69. lets not forget those that transport the patient. ems. cops, .... all. 21 days, no pay. nt

[blackspade]

171. And who pays for this FORCED quarantine?

Are the food delivery people quarantined as well? The health dept workers?
Where does this bullshit end?

[seabeyond]

59. are you quarantining all medical help dealing with ebola in the u.s.? if not, why? nt

[AngryAmish]

181. yes.

[seabeyond]

187. wow. fuck rights and needs for hysteria. well. at least you are the very first to stop the hypocrisy

of them, not us. lock up those people. do not lock up these people. even though it is the very same thing

that, i can respect. your conclusion? not much.

i can see any future ebola victim having a tough time finding any medical people to help them. people cannot live without paycheck.

[kestrel91316]

74. That family was under armed guard. Are you seriously suggesting VIRTUAL IMPRISONMENT

for anyone coming here from West Africa??

What a bunch of reactionary BULL SHIT. Based, not on legitimate epidemiological concerns, but racism and xenophobia and gross medical ignorance.

[kestrel91316]

86. They had sheriff's deputies posted to ensure they didn't break isolation again.

Said deputies were ARMED.

You obviously weren't paying attention at the time.

Three weeks of armed guard for medical personnel who are perfectly capable of self-monitoring and reporting illness to authorities the minute it happens????

What a bunch of FASCIST BULL SHIT.

Really, this is just laughable. Where did you get that PhD in epidemiology??

[gwheezie]

89. They're holding the msf nurse at Newark airport

shes in the isolation room at liberty in Newark. She doesn't know if she's supposed to stay in that room for 21 days or what. She'd like more than a granola bar and a bottle of water and they won't let her have her luggage. She can't get a straight answer from anyone. Her coworkers are on Twitter reporting on her situation since Christie refused to answer where she is.

[seabeyond]

92. and there she sits. cause the more a thinking person plays this out, the more STUPID it is. nt

[uppityperson]

144. The deputies posted to make sure they didn't break quarantine weren't armed or guards? huh

[Cal Carpenter]

189. Please stop insulting humanity by calling your bad arguments "common sense". Thanks. n/t

[kestrel91316]

51. So, what lockdown facility is she being held in? Or do they just have armed guards at

the door of whatever hotel she is in? And who's going to pay the 21-night hotel bill?

I get the funny feeling that this policy will only be enforced against people of the wrong pigmentation type.

[seabeyond]

64. that would hold to anyone "among those afflicted with this horrible disease" here, too, right?

[kestrel91316]

77. Where and when did you get your PhD in epidemiology?

Because you really don't seem to have a clue how this disease works. Ebola is spread by contact with the bodily fluids of SICK PEOPLE. The bodily fluids of the barely ill are barely infectious. The bodily fluids of the severely ill are highly infectious. Training and proper PPE DO work.

Leave these decisions to the grownups.

And yes, I do have the educational and professional background to weigh in on this and offer an INTELLIGENT opinion.

[gwheezie]

79. What if one works at Bellevue?

or NIH?

[malokvale77]

122. Are you serious?

I am so glad that all of humankind does not think like you.

[gwheezie]

73. She's an msf nurse being held at Newark airport

according to some of her coworkers on Twitter she is an American citizen and is being held in Newark. Her luggage is considered a biohazard. It doesn't sound like the authorities thought this through. According to her coworkers she has no idea if they are going to find other accommodations or if she stays in the airport 21 days.

[Marrah_G]

95. Unbelievable

This isn't going to make anyone safer. They are just playing to the ignorance and fear that some seen to be thriving on....and I don't just mean the media.

There are lots of viruses out there. Better start just quarantining everyone that enters the country. hey, we could set up camps at airports. We could call them "Fema Camps". Sound good?

[riderinthestorm]

80. So stupid. I can't believe the fear mongering...

This can only have negative consequences

[neverforget]

83. this country is ruled by fear and ignorance.

Home of the brave my ass.

[hrmjustin]

103. The soman has just developed a fever.

[KMOD]

94. Seems they are reacting to fear

This is foolish.

It's probably going to deter volunteers to give aid in West Africa. Plus, what's to stop the HCWs from landing at Dulles and taking the train to NY?

[hrmjustin]

102. The woman has developed a fever according to msnbc.

[Marrah_G]

106. She's a nurse, who worked with ebola patients. She would have self reported any fever

More then anyone else they know how important it is to get treatment as soon as they get a fever, not just so they don't spread it...so that they have a better chance at survival.

[Marrah_G]

149. Because she is a nurse with the MSF

Of course she would report it. Beyond the fact that she is the type of person to risk her life to save others, I am sure she doesn't wish to die from Ebola because she just spent quite a bit of time getting a very good education on the disease.

Also, she would have reported it as soon as her fever started. That would be at the very early stages of possible infection- at that point the bleeding, diarrhea, vomiting, excessive sweating from high fever have not started yet.

[Marrah_G]

157. Takes a few days to go from the low grade fever to the vomiting, bleeding and diarrhea

I think not donating to them because of this is not a good reason. If there is one group on the planet that knows about this disease, it is this one.

[KMOD]

107. I'm not seeing that anywhere.

Is there a link or are you watching it on TV?

[hrmjustin]

108. Here

http://7online.com/health/passenger-quarantined-after-treating-ebola-patients-in-africa-develops-fever/364779/

[KMOD]

111. Thanks, hrmjustin

Hopefully it won't be Ebola, and if it is I wish her well.

[hrmjustin]

112. me too. scary stuff.

[B2G]

118. Thanks...just saw this

going to update the OP with your link.

[hrmjustin]

124. YW!

[TorchTheWitch]

110. someone just posted it with a link

In GD. I just read it right after reading this thread.

[840high]

114. The "experts" on this thread

don't want to hear that.

[hrmjustin]

115. Well there is legit arguments to be made for and against a quarantine.

[gwheezie]

150. They can test her for ebola

it takes about 12 hours to run the test. If she's running a fever due to ebola wouldn't they be able to run the lab? That's what they did with spencer.

[Marrah_G]

151. yes- I think they run it a few times over a few days though

I'll go look it up.

[Marrah_G]

152. here

http://www.livescience.com/48141-how-doctors-test-for-ebola.html

A number of tests can be used to diagnose Ebola within a few days of the onset of symptoms, which can detect the virus's genetic material or the presence of antibodies against the pathogen.

The most accurate of these is likely the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test, a technique that looks for genetic material from the virus and creates enough copies of it that it can be detected, Hirsch said. "PCR is a really definitive test," Hirsch said. It can pick up very small amounts of the virus.

However, this test can be negative during the first three days an infected person has symptoms, said Dr. Sandro Cinti, an infectious-disease specialist at the University of Michigan Hospital System/Ann Arbor VA Health System.

"Somebody could be in the hospital for three to five days before a diagnosis [of Ebola] is confirmed," Cinti told Live Science. "The important thing is keeping the patient isolated until you can get to a diagnosis." Meanwhile, doctors will be running tests to rule out other diseases, such as malaria, which can be detected more quickly than Ebola, he said.

[gwheezie]

165. I wonder if s fever is considered symptomatic

or do the guidelines require other symptoms I wonder if they would test her for the entire 21 day period.

[Marrah_G]

167. The lowgrade fever is a very early symptom.

I think the article said they test for a few days because after the fever starts it takes a few days for the more specialized/extreme symptoms to start.

[blackspade]

172. What a stupid political stunt....

How are the quarantined people housed?
Where? How are the expenses payed?
What are their rights? Are they suspended? Which ones?
How are their bills paid?

This is all senseless fear mongering for political gain.

[rainbow4321]

175. AC360 had someone on who spoke with her.....said NO fever with an oral thermometer

The medical correspondent in Dallas who was been on TV a lot...forget her name but she used to work for the CDC with this nurse...said she had spoken to the nurse in question. The nurse was upset because the airport people were telling the media that she had a fever when they used their fever scanner but they then took her temp three times with an oral thermometer and it was 98 degrees. The 98 degree part of it the airport officials had not reported
The former CDC person said she and the nurse feel that the nurse's skin was hot and flushed because she was upset not because of a fever.
Guess time will tell.

[seabeyond]

176. it seems, this is just too convenient this woman ending up with fever. then i read

a statement saying she is getting worse in her illness. i will have to wait and see on this one also. not trusting it. interesting what you share.

[Cal Carpenter]

191. She tested NEGATIVE and is now being held against her will

snip

The shift seems to have caught the health care worker by surprise. In a series of tweets Friday afternoon, Dr. Seema Yasmin of the Dallas Morning News said the woman is a nurse who was "being held against her will" at the airport where she had been returning from a month treating patients in West Africa.

Yasmin said the nurse is a friend who works with Doctors Without Borders. Relaying information from the woman, Yasmin said she was "distraught" and wasn't being given information about why she was not allowed to leave.

snip

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/10/25/358795868/health-care-worker-tests-negative-for-ebola-in-nj-stays-in-quarantine

Dr. Seema Yasmin ✔ @DoctorYasmin
Follow

New Jersey dept of health will not explain why my friend, an #Ebola #nurse, is being held at Newark airport. This is no way to treat #nurses
4:42 PM - 24 Oct 2014