My son told me that he would not vote

[demwing]

He's 19, and a fan of Russell Brand.

His big objections:

He doesn't know enough about the candidates to make a quality decision
He doesn't trust our voting machines
He doesn't think there's much difference between the parties

We went through hours of debate, and my breakthrough moment was this:

Even if you vote wrong, even if your vote is flipped, and even if the parties ARE the same, your inactivity does nothing to change the system, in fact it makes it worse. Somewhere, a statistician is reporting that another 18-25 year old didn't vote, and that adds to the false meme that young voters don't care about election outcomes. When that happens, politicians stop caring about what affects that age group, and they tailor their messages, platforms, and policies to age groups that ARE engaged.

There's nothing wrong with a symbolic vote, when it symbolizes that you give a damn.

We went to the polls Saturday, and early voted in Florida

[Adrahil]

1. Bravo! The bastards don't want us to vote.

Not voting is exactly what they want from us.

[SharonAnn]

41. Here in "R" country, I always vote, even if I won't vote for an "R" candidate

In local elections, we often have only unchallenged "R" candidates on the ballot. But I vote, even though I don't cast a vote for a single candidate.

That way they know another person voted and if they slice and dice the data, they'll see that some people showed up to vote and voted a blank ballot. That means those voters are "up for grabs" if a decent opponent runs for that office.

I learned this when I was doing data analysis for our local party. When I sliced and diced the data, I could tell how many people voted but that they didn't find a candidate on the ballot that they could vote for. It told us that they care about local elections and local candidates, but that they wanted a change from the "R" status quo.

And I always vote in our Democratic primaries, even if there are no candidates on the ballot. I want them to know that there's a Democrat out here who's looking for Dem candidates to support.

[tabbycat31]

53. I'm in a heavily R district

And for some (local) offices the R runs unopposed (local nonpartisan races). Instead of voting for the R, I write a bogus candidate in (ie Homer Simpson).

I'd much rather vote for Homer Simpson (Mickey Mouse, etc) than a GOP at any level of government.

I've seen it in returns. John Smith running unopposed gets 800 votes of 1000 in that election. The other 200 didn't vote in that race or wrote someone in.

[hobbit709]

2. I tell people that don't vote that they have no right to complain.

"If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.
If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without
spending the enormous amount of time on it that truly intelligent exercise of franchise requires."-RAH

[markpkessinger]

14. While I agree with your sentiment . . .

. . . I'm not sure that telling people that if they don't vote, they don't have a right to complain is the best strategy for convincing anyone, and particularly a young adult. It has a rather scolding quality about it, and for young adults who are still testing the wings, so to speak, of their newly acquired adult autonomy, anything that sounds remotely like a scold from an older adult is not likely to be well received or to convince them.

[Dawgs]

25. I prefer, 'not voting is lazy'. n/t

[lastlib]

51. I tell them that not voting is spitting in the faces.....

...of the men and women who have fought and DIED to give us the RIGHT to vote. In South Africa's first free elections in 1994, people stood in line for as long as SIX DAYS to exercise their right; it is disgusting to me that people won't take maybe thirty minutes (in most cases)?

If we as voters aren't part of the solution (by exercising our right to vote), then we're part of the problem. How does the kid expect to keep his right to vote healthy if he doesn't exercise it??

[True Blue Door]

3. Russell Brand is a complete putz.

Millionaire entertainer playing Chuck E. Cheese revolutionary, telling people to abdicate basic responsibilities and hard-won rights "because stuff."

I notice that jerkoff isn't pulling his bullshit routine in any country where people don't already have rights, because of course being arrested and beaten by secret police would muss his hairdo.

[MADem]

21. Katy Perry would agree. Took her awhile, but she figured out he's a drug-addled nay-sayer with

a great line of "clever patter" that appeals to people who do not want to deconstruct issues for THEMSELVES, but who prefer to have a solution mapped out and handed to them in bing-bang-boom fashion.

Too clever by half, is the term. A hipster haircut, quirky clothing and an unrepentant accent do not a sage make.

[Voice for Peace]

39. well.. he has many redeemable qualities, in my opinion

[demwing]

44. Agreed, I like Brand

except for his "Don't Vote" mantra. It's ill-conceived and destructive.

[NBachers]

49. Yeah, I haven't figured out what the big thing is about him. Seems like an annoying jerk to me.

My response whenever I see him is, "Get the fuck AWAY from me!"

[procon]

4. good answer!

Apathy is our worst enemy, and the GOP uses that to their advantage. We can't afford the luxury of ideological purity when it means throwing perfect out with the good.

[Enthusiast]

5. After the debacle that was the 2,000 presidential election I wondered why

the newly elected Democratic majority of 2006 didn't make election reform their very top priority.

I thought, "What is wrong with my party? Don't they recognize that we must stop states like Florida from purging legitimate voters?"

But nothing happened and now we are facing an even greater, more widespread, version of the Florida election fraud we had in 2,000.

[Scootaloo]

30. Because they thought it'd be handy to have when they took charge

They only started opposing it once it started seriously cutting into the party's power and thus, profits. Oncethe cost to the party became greate than the potential for benefit.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Glad you brought him back from the brink

If you CAN vote this year - you MUST vote this year.

It's that simple . . . because a whole lot of folks in TX and NC don't 'get to' vote this year.

[JHB]

7. He always has the choice to vote for himself. Certainly HE represents his views.

Cribbing from several posts of mine over the last 2 weeks:

Voting isn't just a right, it is often a chore, but one that needs to be done regularly just like washing dishes or cleaning up your house. If you leave it for someone else, it falls to those who don't mind attracting vermin.

When I am completely unable to budge someone like that I ask them if they represent their view (and, duh, of course they do). I suggest they go to the polls and vote for themselves as a write-in candidate. They'll lose, but their vote is there to be counted.

If you sit home, nobody in politics will care, you just make their job easier. But imagine a race where the vote is 25% for one guy, 24% for a second guy, and 51% "other". THAT would get attention.

I've never met the handful of people I've told that to again (or if I have, didn't remember them), so I have no idea of what they actually did. But when I left them I had them thinking.

Voting (for ones' self) is not wasted time if it reminds them that numbers matter.

It's not a waste of time if it gets them into the voting booth to vote for ALL of the offices up for election, not just the high-level ones being "protested".

It's not wasted time if you prove that you and others like you have a track record of going to the polls reliably, and can be counted on to show up and vote if someone starts actively trying to attract yours.

[demwing]

24. Lol...there was a write in slot for the School Board

We both agrerd ro vote for ourselves!

[NightWatcher]

8. I can't believe a Florida voter was apathetic

There's plenty to vote for and make a difference.

Amendments 1 & 2 are big deals, Scott is evil and Pam Bondi needs to be run out of the state.

[demwing]

13. I used that argument as well

it didnt seem to resonate. His initial answer was "if I don't vote, I also don't vote for the evil guy."

It was a matter of persistency. I just had to find the right key...

[markpkessinger]

9. Superb response!

Congratulations, and thank you!

[demwing]

20. Thanks, Im glad it was effective.

He was extremely stubborn. Could be because the argument was being made by his Dad and he wanted to assert himself...not sure, don't care, jut glad e found a way he could get engaged

[meaculpa2011]

10. My son isn't going to vote either.

He's 24 and doesn't even know that there's an election next week... but...

He can tell you every detail of every character of every multi-player interactive computer game he plays.

It's probably for the best.

[MADem]

15. Tell him to enjoy the Supreme Court that will take away his video games and ensure he has to

work until he's eighty--or less, if he dies from lack of decent health care.

If he can't get that there's one party that puts better Supreme Court justices on the bench, he needs to be educated to that fact.

[meaculpa2011]

18. Gee whiz. Why didn't I think of that? n/t

[pablo_marmol]

55. Good job w/regard to this point, and your OP MADem! NT

[markpkessinger]

78. I thought the OP did a pretty good job of laying out why not voting is never "for the best," . . .

. . . even when one makes a poor choice.

[Heather MC]

11. Good for you!! I like Russell Brand but that don't vote message

Is not good for America. Because most people who would listen to Brand are probably apathetic potential Democratic voters

[MADem]

12. Another valid argument: "The next Supreme Court will make decisions that will affect YOU for far

longer than they will affect me--if the actuarial tables hold true. So hey, pretend there's 'no difference' and pretend you 'don't know enough' when the bottom line is this--one party gives more of a shit about the poor, the disenfranchised, and those in need of a social safety net than the other. One party will put people on the court to support things like equality, choice, education, and heath care for all--and the other party won't. Ball's in your court, because you will reap the 'benefits' of your action--or your inaction-- long after your parents' and grandparents' generations are dead and buried."

It's ALL about the Supremes. Anyone who can't see that after it is pointed out to them is being willfully obtuse.

[demwing]

16. "Anyone who can't see that after it is pointed out to them is being willfully obtuse"

would have been a losing argument under just about any circumstance.

[MADem]

17. Well, I'm not suggesting you include that in your pitch--but it's a fact.

The short form is "Enjoy your Scalia-style Supreme court--it'll be so much fun as you age!"

[Cha]

22. Ages... well like

rotten fish.

Still bitter after all these years.. Tavis Smiley is another one who is advocating not to vote.. caught this snippet tonight..

"Not all African Americans leaders are encouraging black voter turnout, however, even in the shadow of Ferguson. Journalist and pundit Tavis Smiley said in a recent interview with ABC News that "if you're black or brown, other than helping to save the Democrats' hide," there are no good reasons to turn out to vote this November. Smiley claimed that Democratic appeals to black voters are more about election year politics than a genuine desire to change policies."

applegrove http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5720321

[MADem]

23. Tavis thought he was going to strut into the White House with Cornel West, and they'd both be

given a permanent pass and a key to the Lincoln bedroom in 2009, for no good reason other than the fact that Tavis is a media personality and Cornel is a bigmouth. When that favoritism didn't materialize, he got pouty and shirty, and then he got shitty and toxic. He's on a continuum, and this is his latest attempt at taking his ball and going home. News flash, TAVIS--no one listens to your schtick anymore. You're tiresome. Tom Joyner took your crown, and he's got a positive attitude to go with -- his glass is at least half empty. This is the kind of stuff TJ is doing: http://wzakcleveland.com/3628319/tom-joyner-news-election-protection-has-you-covered-3/

Tavis did a better job jumping the shark than Fonzie ever did...and oh, he's so BITTER and he's letting everyone know it.

[Cha]

19. Good on you, demwing! Getting him to come around to see the light after being sucked into

apathy(Wrong Wrong Wrong).

Sage>>>>>>>>>>

"When that happens, politicians stop caring about what affects that age group, and they tailor their messages, platforms, and policies to age groups that ARE engaged."

My son and I were just talking about a thread on DU recently where the OP's daughter had broken her heart with a post on FB saying she wasn't voting this year. My son is older but just started voting after he saw what the bush coup did to our country. And, he does know there's a big difference between the two parties.. he's always posting the dif on FB. I'm proud of him.

[demwing]

27. Thanks Cha, I saw that thread as well

In fact, it was what inspired me to shatr my experience. I hope it gives parents a little light at the end of the tunnel.

[FailureToCommunicate]

26. Good dad. Voting IS symbolic. It's THE symbol of a democracy, even if that seems awfully

hard to see, or believe in sometimes these days.

Thanks for sharing your breakthrough. You're so lucky to be in a state with early voting.

[Scootaloo]

28. well, see, politicians already don't care what we think

We're a small portion of the population, compared the the boomers.

we tend to be poor. You're not going to find college students or young couples who can really throw big bucks at campaigns.

We tend to be quite a bit to the left of what either party, Republican or Democrat, is ever willing to offer or even discuss.

They're already not going to listen to him, even if he does vote, because he can't make them wealthier and because, odds are, they would have to change the status quo that is making them so very wealthy, if they did listen to him. Listening to young people is a risky investment as far as career politicians are concerned.

They want our votes, so they can become incumbents. They want our money, so they can become wealthy incumbents. They want us to volunteer, so they don't actually have to pay staff. But they don't want our voices. They don't want our ideas. They don't want our input. We are a resource, to be used and thrown away immediately after.

Maybe you don't understand how voting actually is supposed to work. You see, casting a ballot is not a plea for a politician to come down and listen to you. Oh no. Quite the opposite. A vote cast is a statement that you are 100% with the guy you voted for, at least as far as he's concerned; a politician wins an election, he takes it as vindication of the status quo he's running, not as a moment to take criticism from a small and largely poor selection of the people who voted for him.

If you want to encourage your son to vote, telling him this fairy tale of "they won't listen to you if you don't" won't work, unless you raised your son to be a complete fucking moron.

[demwing]

31. Thanks for your concern and your post

I'll file it appropriately...

[Scootaloo]

32. And there we go.

A perfect demonstration of exactly what I'm saying. Want the votes, but don't want the thoughts or opinions.

[demwing]

34. Yes, and there you go.

nice chatting with you!

[Scootaloo]

35. Well, I wouldn't call it chatting

That implies a dialogue of sorts, which you seem to not exactly be skilled with. But if you want to call it nice, hey, sure.

[jeff47]

42. Yeah, let's repeat the stupid we did with Young GenX

It worked so well last time.

Simple math: Older boomers tend to be liberal. Younger Boomers tend to be conservative. Older GenX tends to be conservative. Younger GenX tends to be liberal. Millenials tend to be liberal. You don't have to have Millenials outnumber all boomers for them to have an effect. You only need liberals to outnumber conservatives. And older Boomers + younger GenX + Millenials outnumber younger Boomers + older GenX.

But only the last two groups vote consistently. In fact, those last two are the core of the Republican party. Older Boomers vote, but Young GenX and Millenials have low turnout because fucking morons keep telling them to not bother to vote because they don't outnumber all Boomers.

If you want to encourage your son to vote, telling him this fairy tale of "they won't listen to you if you don't" won't work, unless you raised your son to be a complete fucking moron.

Actually, the morons are the people who think that doing nothing will magically change everything.

You want to change our politics? Get involved in local races. Hell, get yourself on the ballot. It's not that hard.

Those local races form the pool of candidates for higher office. Being fucking morons and ignoring young voters for a generation-and-a-half now is why that pool is far to the right of the actual electorate. How 'bout we stop doing that instead of continuing to do exactly what the Republicans have been telling us to do?

[demwing]

43. I appreciate your comments

I wasn't about to roll in the mud, just to feed into someone argumentative nature.

[arcane1]

57. Can you PLEASE pass that wisom on to Brand and the idiots who support his nonsense?

Common freakin' sense is sadly lacking, and you nailed it!

[Ykcutnek]

46. As a Millennial, I check my idealism at the door.

It's time for Millennials to realize that life is all about making the best possible decision from the options available and not sitting around wishing they had different options.

[bravenak]

76. I do the same.

I NEVER miss a vote.

[jtuck004]

77. Sounds like captivity. Freedom not big for these Millenial people?

You offer a minimized "sitting around" as their only option. Why? Might be they are capable of much more, and their best bet might be to walk away from those offering the existing choices and go find something else, cut their losses and realize their future doesn't resemble your past. Freedom is hard. But so is sharecropping, and that's exactly what the Millenials and their progeny have to look forward to.

Maybe the barrier is just you, or your lack of idealism? Why you get rid of it? Too heavy, caring about all those other people? Easier to just worry about getting yours? Lots of that around today, wouldn't be unusual. Or a particularly good strategy, I think.

Scary to see them go, certainly from the point of view of those who would profit by them staying put, whether bankers or political parties. Because, after all, the wealthy and powerful only have what we give them. And old wisdom that people never seem to internalize is as true then as it is now. When we stop giving it to them, they will fall of their own weight.

Hazardous, too, for the person who wants to build something better, perhaps, but so are chains we can't see. Always tripping over the damn things, so maybe best to just get away from them.

[pscot]

29. If my son told me that

I'd break his dish and pack his bags for him.

[demwing]

33. Would that have encouraged him to vote? /nt

Last edited Mon Oct 27, 2014, 09:54 AM - Edit history (1)

[Scootaloo]

38. Well, violence and exile is a great way to convince a child of how right your position is

I mean we're talking party loyalty here? What the fuck good is a loving and trusting familial relationship, in the face of demonstrating how far you're willing to go to give a congressman one more vote?

[rock]

36. The nefarious plan of the 1%ers is coming to fruition!

Congratulate your son!

[demwing]

40. Thanks! I noticed he wore his "I voted" sticker

when he went to see a band Saturday night. Engagement is viral, I hope he spread it around a little.

[ancianita]

37. Welcome to my world, and good for you. Though I can't join her, I hope my daughter does the same.

[Ykcutnek]

45. I wish people like Russell Brand would shut the fuck up.

The only reason he's being paraded around on TV right now telling people not to vote is because the lack of voting helps Republicans.

[randr]

47. I had a young person tell me the same thing today

Must be something in their social media water.
I told her that she knows a whole lot more than most of the idiots voting for Republicans and that I would like her to think that her vote would at least counter one vote from the equally ignorant on the other side.

[MoonchildCA]

48. I started taking my daughter to the polls with me as soon as she could walk.

I wanted to ingrain in her the civil duty, privilege, and excitement of voting. Election Day and watching the returns was always a big day at our house--almost like a holiday.

At almost 25, she wouldn't think of not voting, and she often encourages her friends.

I highly recommend start them early, and make a big deal out of it.

[demwing]

59. I have always had my kids with me when I vote

The eldest was there for my 1st Clinton vote, and the rest followed every vote. It's always been vote, and a big family dinner out.

It really surprised me when he didn't want to vote. He isn't apathetic, just alternately engaged. I hope he votes in 2016 without my debate to spur him.

[MoonchildCA]

64. Well, at least you finagled him into it this time.

Maybe it will catch on.

[demwing]

66. Sparks

create fires...

[tabbycat31]

50. Next step

Get your son to call some of his friends and drag them kicking and screaming to the polls.

[demwing]

71. He actually saw this thread, and commented about it on his FaceBook page :)

He laughed, and called me an old stinker

[DeSwiss]

52. Russell Brand never said not to get involved.

- Just in a different way. A more direct way. In a way that forces TRUTH and REALITY of people's lives into the dialogue. Something that seems to have little cache in these parts anymore......

I've always let my two sons and my daughter decide whether to vote and for whom to vote, for themselves. It's a quirk I have about them being endowed by their Creator the right to exercise their free will. Stuff like that.


Systems that fail to evolve, fail.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. Look at the local dems website for a voter guide....

Or the Peace and Freedom Party if that tickles your fancy.

[demwing]

62. I pointed him to the League of Women Voters Guide

and he really devoured it. I could immediately tell that he's not apathetic, just misguided.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

72. CNN does that....

CNN makes you feel that both sides do it, it's always been that way, it will always be that way and there's nothing you can do about it.

[CC]

56. Glad you got your son to vote...

...as for Russell Brand and his voting or lack of, why would it matter here? Unless something has changed very recently he is not a citizen and cannot vote in US elections. Whether he voted, did not vote or will vote in England really shouldn't matter to his fans here.

[JI7]

58. isn't Russel Brand a UK Citizen ? as for your son it sounds more like he is just making excuses

to not do something he probably doesn't have much interest in at the moment or finds boring.

[demwing]

60. that was my first take

nut he was very passionate about his reasons. He's a very smart kid - if anything, he was overthinking the process, rather than avoiding it.

It occurs to me that he may also have been testing me to understand better whether my voting was superficially influenced, or a part of my core character.

He's that kind of dude...

[JI7]

61. it was the reasons he gave , it seemed like he was just

making an excuse after excuse. but hopefully it's not because he is reaching conspiracy theory stage .

i'm thinking it could just be his age.

what state is he voting in ?

[demwing]

63. We live in St Petersburg Florida

Medical Marijuana is on the ballot. I thought that would keep him engaged, but he is just 19.

[JI7]

65. then you have a good example to give him

Charlie Crist even when he was Republican Governor was very good when it came to voting rights . remember, at this time he was a republican and his future was seen in the republican party and he was seen as a potential candidate for the national ticket.

allowing people to vote was clearly going to benefit democrats. but unlike other republican governors he still supported it .

this is a big and very important difference from the current governor .

crist also supports obamacare and will work to get it to more people in the state. and obamacare means your son can stay on your health care plan until he is mid 20s if you have him on a plan now. if not it will allow him to get on a plan that would be more affordable to funded by the govt easier than without it.

and you of course have the 2000 Bush v Gore election to show how any vote could make the difference.

[demwing]

67. Actually, my son signed up for Obamacare as soon as it was available

He wanted to carry his own weight.

[Anarcho-Fapitalist]

68. Your son is right.

I have to agree with your Son. There is no difference between the parties. They are 2 sides of the same coin. I went and early voted on Saturday to, I voted for Adrian Wylie

[demwing]

70. Thank you for voting!

I told my kid he should vote for whomever he felt was best qualified--except Rick Scott, lol.

[Anarcho-Fapitalist]

73. Me personally

lol. I only voted in 3 races. But what is your stance on Amendment 2?

[demwing]

74. Favor it

I've got a chronic back injury (no pun) and look forward to some legal relief

[calimary]

69. EXCELLENT!!! Bravo to him!

And EXTRA kudos to YOU, demwing, for not giving up on him and insisting!