The difference between Guns and knives. And chainsaws. And baseball bats.

[Mister Nightowl]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Autumn (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Knives, chainsaws, baseball bats, hedge clippers, cars, cement blocks, glass bottles, and even our bare hands have a primary purpose that does not involve death or destruction: Making a sandwich, for example, or cutting firewood, or hitting a home run, or gardening, or driving your kids to school, or building a home, or enjoying a cold beer, or writing/handling tools/holding a newborn baby/petting a dog, etc.

Guns, on the other hand, have nothing BUT death or destruction as their primary (and really, only) purpose.

I hope you remember these words the next time a murder is committed by somebody using something other than a gun, and the inevitable wingnuts start bleating, "Oh, well I guess now we'll have to ban....!"

[orpupilofnature57]

1. + 1000 !!!

[Mister Nightowl]

2. Then...

why no rec?

[orpupilofnature57]

3. look again, and a plus 1000 is a rec, but who's counting ????

[ileus]

4. Self defense firearms are made for saving lives.

any other use is misuse.

Of course you still have competition, collecting, hunting firearms that are meant for fun and entertainment.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Death for the sake of feeding the family is an acceptable purpose and sometimes necessary purpose.

It's called hunting and defense. Yet, those who reject this premise seem blithely unaware that their fundamental intention is to employ individuals with guns to disarm other individuals with guns.

Alcohol has no useful primary purpose yet it leads to far more crime, murder, disease, violence, abuse and injury. Yet, those who supposedly want what is best for society seem surprisingly reluctant to discuss employing their intentions towards guns with the same zeal towards alcohol.

[DrDan]

6. yep - one reason - killing

[Principled Peter]

7. K&R

Fuck the NRA!

[99Forever]

8. Yeah but...

... you didn't define the caliber and stock style...!

So, nanny nanny boo boo.

Oh yeah...

....and...

FREEDUMBS!

[badtoworse]

9. Sorry, but that's s crock. The fallacies are so obvious, I won't bother to point them out.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. The right to self-defense exists even if the NRA never existed. The 2 are wholly separate.

[Orrex]

11. How do "self-defense firearms" save lives, exactly?

Answer: via the threat of injury or death, which is the weapon's primary purpose.

It is absurd to argue otherwise, because the weapon is chosen for defense specifically because of that very real threat, and not because the weapon can also be used to shoot tin cans off of a log. I suppose that armies around the world carry firearms because they're fun and entertaining?

Of course you still have competition, collecting, hunting firearms that are meant for fun and entertainment.

Of course, a hunting weapon is explicitly intended to do exactly what the OP stated (i.e., to cause death or destruction), so you're helping to make the OP's case.

If you can demonstrate that actual (i.e., functional) civilian firearms made and sold specifically for competition & collecting significantly outnumber firearms made for the purpose of the threat of injury or death, then your argument will be credible. Otherwise, not so much.

[GeorgeGist]

12. Nothing.

[Scuba]

13. I've never hear of someone standing in their back yard being killed by ...

... the swimming pool in their neighbor's yard.

[badtoworse]

14. Target shooting, trap and skeet, hunting and self defense are all legitimate uses of firearms

Of those only, hunting necessarily involves killing. Things like knives, bats, chainsaws and even cars, can be negligently or intentionally abused to cause someone's death. I thought that was so obvious that it wasn't necessary to point it out.

[bvf]

15. I'll accept that

as soon as somebody comes up with a firearm that can only be fired in self defense.

[DetlefK]

16. Ebola! We have to ban sneezing!

[Bettie]

17. Unfortunately, the wingnuts bleating about banning XYZ

Will never get the distinction.

They generally believe that any other item ever causing a death renders their favored tool of destruction neutral.

Plus, they also tend to have a weird almost sexual attachment to their guns.

But, it is indeed a tool that, if used as intended, produces death and/or destruction.

Just last week, I had to go to a funeral for a boy who decided to end his life with such a tool.

[Sneak the freak]

18. It's not the NRA that is the problem

It's the millions of members and silent supporters who will vote out anti gun politicians.

[WinkyDink]

19. I think the main differences are DISTANCE, both spatially and emotionally, and TARGET SIZE.

It's hard to mow down a group with a knife or a baseball bat.

[True Blue Door]

20. The primary purpose of guns is penile enhancement.

The Micropenis-American community cannot be held responsible whenever one of its members (so to speak) abuses their prosthetic for dark purposes.

[mac56]

21. Self defense doesn't involve killing?

The reason a gun can be used for self defense is specifically because it has the capability of killing one's attacker.

And as a poster below suggested: let me know when they develop a gun that can be used only for target shooting, trap, or skeet.

[WinkyDink]

22. There is no such animal as a "self-defense firearm." It is a firearm, period.

[badtoworse]

24. Sometimes self-defense involves killing someone; other times, the firearm acts as a deterrent.

Firearms, by design, are weapons. So what? There are times when the use of a firearm as a weapon is justified.

[LeftinOH]

25. There's a good toon which explains this:

[Orrex]

26. That's a weak argument by equivocation

Alcohol has no useful primary purpose yet it leads to far more crime, murder, disease, violence, abuse and injury. Yet, those who supposedly want what is best for society seem surprisingly reluctant to discuss employing their intentions towards guns with the same zeal towards alcohol.

Please provide hard statistics on the number of deaths resulting from one person using alcohol against another. They do exist, I agree, but they certainly don't come anywhere near the number of firearm deaths annually, and unless you can document otherwise, then your comparison is faulty.

Further, it is unreasonable to claim that "alcohol has no useful primary purpose," because that's a judgment based on your values. Alcohol is useful as a complement to meals and as a component of social interaction--these are its primary intended purposes, in fact, as opposed to the primary intended purposes of firearms. Yes, alcohol abuse is certainly a problem, but if you want to pretend some equivalence between the lethality of alcohol and the lethality of firearms, then you need to crunch the numbers. I suspect that the number of fatally discharged firearms will vastly outnumber the alcoholic drinks fatally consumed in a given period.

Just to pick two easy numbers for comparison, the CDC reports 32,351 firearm deaths in 2011, while MADD shows 9,865 drunk driving fatalities in that same year. If you actually "want what is best for society," then you can begin by accounting for this 3:1 discrepancy.

Also, you're equivocating when you place "leads to death" on the same footing as "directly causes death." You need to justify that asserted equilvalence before you can base a credible argument on it.


In short, the comparison between alcohol-related deaths and firearm-related deaths is untenable and should be abandoned.

[GGJohn]

27. False.

I have a couple of freezers full of wild game, Elk, Deer, game birds, etc.
A lot of people in the rural areas of the country hunt to put meat on the table for their families.

[Half-Century Man]

28. The same with any weapon.

A spear, sword, mace, bow and arrows, crossbows, catapults, ballistia, nunchuku, shuriken, halberds, etc.
All of those things are arms. That is one of the reasons we call large collections of people holding those things, Armies. If you think the second amendment is so sacrosanct, attempt to stroll down the main street in your town with a morning star (spiked metal ball on the end of a chain and handle) draped over your shoulder. You won't make it two blocks.

The second amendment says fuck all about firearms.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

If we can (and we already do, without rage from the NRA) regulate the public carry of the examples provided because they can cause accidental injury, they cause a public disturbance, the bearer might be tempted to use them (or be seen as so), or there is normally no justifiable reason the carry them (and rightly so), then why cannot firearms (one kind of, but not all of "arms&quot be regulated to a similar extent?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

29. While I agree with most of that, the last row doesn't work.

Because a lot of the difference between rifle A and rifle B is cosmetic, to appeal to the guy who likes to fantasize about being army without actually joining.

A lot of people DO hunt with the last rifle shown, the one listed as 'nothing'. They could just as easily hunt with the first one, but the second one is 'cooler'. That's why 'model' isn't all that useful in doing bans. Models of rifle that aren't banned are every bit as deadly as those that are banned, and manufacturers also simply look at the specific language of 'model' bans and tweak their products just enough to go outside the 'model' legislation.

And really, 'masssacre' deaths are still damn rare. Far more Americans are slaughtered or maimed with pistols than with AR 15's, day in and day out.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

30. Welcome to DU.....

But...a little bone to pick with ya.

I'll start this by saying I don't hunt, I own no guns, I believe that guns should be regulated very strictly...much more than now. The NRA is .... Fill in all the blanks, with any deriding, negative explicative you can muster.
But...and I live in an area outside of Detroit, Oakland county, not rural, mostly city-like, the great suburbs... In my immediate neighborhood I can count three families that their main meat consumption is wild game. The entire family hunts. They eat no meat from any other source.
It is not an economic situation, it is their choice of food such as ...if you eat meat, you choose between pork, chicken or beef.

This would not be my choice, but you really cannot make such a blanket statement.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. That's a very interesting observation

And one I don't remember seeing before - the definition of 'arms' in the second, in regard to carrying swords, maces, etc.

[hack89]

32. My guns must be defective

30 years of gun ownership and they have never once killed a living thing.

[Duckhunter935]

33. and that is just plain wrong

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

34. Actually, I gotta agree with the others here. Plenty of people still do.

Heck, I can still drive to a store and buy elk jerky or all sorts of other 'game' meats. I don't hunt, but I know many folks who do, and they do it to eat the meat. It may not be their ONLY food source, or even their MAIN food source, but yeah, plenty of people still eat hunted food.

[Inkfreak]

35. Try to educate yourself beyond your little bubble.

Many, many people hunt & feed their families when they do. Maybe you think you can get everything you need at Whole Foods. That's fine. But don't think everyone does the same. You found silly.

[safeinOhio]

36. Obviously

all the above can be done with a 22 or 410 single shot.

[MillennialDem]

37. All those involve killing, practice killing, or the threat of killing.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

38. Like my snowblower, then.

Which just sits in the garage while I go out and shovel.

[Half-Century Man]

39. The police in Utah swarmed a black man open carrying a Japanese styled sword

and gunned him down.
There were reports he swung the sword as he walked. Yet, he attacked no one.
He was confronted by an organized aggressive mob of armed men, he moved into a defensive posture.
And then the young black man ceased to exist.

Wasn't that too protected under the second amendment? Was he swinging the sword or just swinging his hands as he walked? Was the blade exposed or encased? Was there a lunge or a break for an opening in the surrounding circle of fire armed men?

[MillennialDem]

41. The vast majority of deaths by firearm are not justified though. Something like

200 per year (give or take) justifiable homicide by civilian with firearm and about 800 per year (give or take) justifiable homicide by a police officer - and even the latter is probably way too high (too many police get off the hook).

[AtheistCrusader]

42. False.

Come check out my freezer any time.

Something still had to die, but id wager each animal I've taken led a better, more natural life, and died quick and humane, over the shit that goes on in factory farms and slaughter houses.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. You mean 200 per year, in the state of florida, right?

Because that's not the national number by a long shot.

[GGJohn]

44. A hell of a lot of hunters aren't on food stamps,

hunted meat is alot healtier for you than that store bought meat.
I hunt my own food just because I don't trust the meat in these chain supermarkets.

[hack89]

45. Guns are not inanimate objects apparently

They cannot deny their primary purpose and magically turn people into killers despite their best efforts. Or so the logic goes.

[MillennialDem]

46. What you described is technically a flail. A morning star is a spiked club or mace :p

[Thespian2]

47. K & R

[badtoworse]

48. I would say you are not a hunter

A 22 would be a very poor choice to hunt big game (e.g. deer or bear) and it's not legal in some states to do so. Even if it were legal, it would not be humane - a good hunter strives for a clean, quick kill that minimizes the animal's suffering. With a 22, there is a high likelihood that the animal would only be wounded and would suffer a long, slow death. When I used to hunt deer, I used a 30-30.

Same thing with a 410. It's a good choice for small birds at short range, but inappropriate for larger birds, such as geese, at longer range. For all around use, my choice would be a 20 gauge (A 12 gauge can be a bit much, at least for me).

[hack89]

49. That last rifle is the most popular competive target shooting rifle in America. Nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

50. Nope, but like my snowblower

they can be sold or given to people who don't intend to use them for the reason they were designed. Or taken away from the owner by people who will put them to use for that purpose. (Maybe I should leave the snowblower sitting outside to see if it'll disappear so I can regain that garage space...)

[MillennialDem]

51. Um... JUSTIFIABLE homicide by firearm, per year, for the whole US (see links)

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_15_justifiable_homicide_by_weapon_private_citizen_2008-2012.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_14_justifiable_homicide_by_weapon_law_enforcement_2008-2012.xls

And nevermind on the police #, it's lower (about 400 per year, not 800).

[badtoworse]

52. I've never found targets or clay pigeons to be much of a threat.

[hack89]

53. So perhaps we should make that illegal

Isn't that why we have laws?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

54. I don't know from technical, but what he described sounded like what

Terry Pratchett described as a morningstar in one of the discworld books, with a short handle, a length of chain, and the spiked ball. I think it was in 'Guards, Guards!' Maybe in different parts of the world, the word is used in somewhat different ways.

[rock]

55. You've obviously never had to nail a nail in a hurry!

Or kill a fly without a flyswatter! Or crack walnuts without getting up! (some levity for a serious subject)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. Is it?

We have a lot of laws, some of which make sense, others which don't. Many that are still ignored by people who think of themselves as 'law abiding'. Some 'work', some don't. And sometimes we simply can't make laws because people with money buy the opinions of our lawmakers, to the point that you can poll the American people and find 90% support for a law, and still their 'representative' deigns not to represent his or her constituents to make sure that such a law won't come about.

If we had a working legislative system, I would agree with you about 'just making laws'. We don't, though. We have a system that's bought by those with cash, that doesn't actually 'represent' the people.

[MillennialDem]

57. Dictionary says

Morning star: Also called holy water sprinkler, holy water sprinkle. a medieval shafted weapon having a head in the form of a spiked ball.

Flail: an instrument for threshing grain, consisting of a staff or handle to one end of which is attached a freely swinging stick or bar. a similar instrument used as a weapon of war.

Of course, I'm a medieval fantasy nerd

[Thespian2]

58. So

the question becomes, "Why do you have them? Why do you keep them?" I had guns when I was young. They sat around as well...unless I wanted to kill a rabbit or bird or squirrel. I got rid of all the guns when a friend shot himself in the leg...accidentally. I discovered that guns have no purpose except death and destruction.

[Thor_MN]

59. One could postulate that they act as pacifiers for the fearful and paranoid.

But they also work perfectly fine for taking life, even those few designed for entertainment purposes.

[pangaia]

60. In fact it is a .. gun.

[MillennialDem]

61. Those fall under practice killing.

[hack89]

62. Perhaps

I think in regards to gun control the issue has more to do with shallow and unevenly distributed public support. The gun control movement is not much of a movement by any measure.

[pangaia]

63. Actually tens of thusands of people,

probably hundreds of thousands, millions?, DO discuss and protest and campaign against the abuse of alcohol.

[aikoaiko]

64. Even if that is true -- so what?

You used weasel words like primary or "really only" so it will be difficult to argue, but most firearms are not used in death or destruction when you look at how they are used on a daily basis.

But even if it were true - so what? Firearms are made and sold for legal uses and sometimes those involve death and destruction.

On the other hand, is a murder less of a tragedy if done with a hammer?

[badtoworse]

65. Even if I conceded your point (and I don't), what difference would it make?

Other forms of self-defense are potentially lethal, yet are practiced for sport.

[thucythucy]

66. Here's a quick lesson on the difference between guns and knives:

In Britain, a deranged man broke into George Harrison's house and attempted to stab him to death. His wife was able to subdue the assailant by hitting him over the head, I think with a lamp. Though stabbed several times, Harrison was rushed to a hospital, and he lived.

In the USA, a deranged man stalked John Lennon, confronted him outside his home, and shot him several times. Lennon was rushed to a hospital, but bled to death before he got there.

The lesson here: guns are far more lethal. Best to limit their availability to the greatest extent possible.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. You would be very wrong.

[Thor_MN]

68. How many people use hand guns for trap and skeet, and hunting?

Target shooting is essentially simulated killing and could be done with further simulation not involving projectiles.

Self defense is killing, or the threat of killing which results at times in killing, sometimes with no danger involved.

[Duckhunter935]

69. In my case

I enjoy target shooing at paper plates and cans.

As far as I know that is still a legal activity and does not kill anything. 20+ years and no incidents if you follow proper safety rules. How did the gun shoot your friend, may I ask repectfully?

[MillennialDem]

70. The point of the OP (and me) is that guns are not tools. They are only weapons because their only

use is killing.

And yes people practice with knives in martial arts classes and then there is fencing and whatnot. Those are practice killing as well.

But knives cut food (both plant and animal), open packages, cut carpet, strip wire, and a million other uses. Guns do nothing functional at all like that. I suppose you could make the same case for swords and some other larger medieval weapons as well though.

[hack89]

71. Competitive target shooting. nt

[badtoworse]

72. Guns are, first and foremost, weapons and a good weapon is effective at killing.

So what?

[Thor_MN]

73. Are you going to vouch for every other gun owner?

Otherwise, your statement is null in content. The problem is not firearms safely held in the homes of responsible owners. So you only excluded your personal anecdote from the equation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

74. "Please provide hard statistics on the number of deaths resulting from one person using alcohol"

So, of the ~30,000 firearm deaths you agree that we should immediately not include self-inflicted or accidental injuries/death?

[hack89]

75. I can vouch for the vast majority of legal gun owners

Not so much for criminals with illegal guns.

[joeglow3]

76. Want to meet my wife's family?

They live in rural Nebraska and rely on game to stop their family from starving.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

77. I don't petition for things to be banned. That would be the responsibility of those who claim

to want to ban things in the name of the public good.

[Thor_MN]

78. Could you please identify all of them to the authorities?

If they could just arrest all of those criminals with illegal guns, there would be no problems with firearms.

Unless you can do that, there still is a problem that needs to be solved.

[MillennialDem]

79. And that's their only function.

[hack89]

80. Certainly we need laws like UBCS

Safe storage laws and mandatory safety training would be good too. As for illegal guns the ATF needs more money and people to crack down on illegal gun trafficking.

I agree with you - the focus should be one people and their actions.

[Orrex]

81. Why would I agree to that?

You're suggesting some equivalence between immediately firearm lethality and deaths due to health issues resulting from chonic, longterm alcohol abuse, but that's likewise a bogus comparison.

So, of the ~30,000 firearm deaths you agree that we should immediately not include self-inflicted or accidental injuries/death?

If I wanted to falsely stack the deck in favor of firearms, maybe that would make sense. However, it still wouldn't help your argument in the end, because we'd also need to exclude accidental and self-inflicted drunk driving deaths, leaving only deliberate, non-self-inflicted drunk driving deaths for comparison. Do you suppose that there are many of these annually?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. I live in SW Ohio.

And it's not a health code violation around here, or else I wouldn't be able to buy it. The same store also sells ostrich, alligator, and all sorts of other meats. And if you're buying it in a store, you're not buying it because you can't afford regular food, you're buying it because you like it. It's more expensive in the stores than beef, pork, chicken.

The people who eat it to stretch their budget are hunting it themselves. And the stores around here that carry hunting gear also have large departments for food processing equipment, from slicers and sausage makers to smokers and food sealers. I don't hunt, as I said, but I do a lot of canning. I probably pull about seven or eight hundred dollars worth of black raspberry jam and jelly a year out of my backyard, for instance.

[badtoworse]

83. See Post 72. I don't consider the fact that firearms are weapons to be important.

The fact that practicing shooting skills on the range would make you more effective at using a firearm as a weapon isn't important either.

[badtoworse]

84. See Post 83 and have a nice day.

[Travis_0004]

85. If guns are only designed to kill then my guns are defective

Ive had a handgun for 10 years and it hasnt once jumped up and killed somebody. Im going to call Glock and request a refund.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

86. Wow....

In my earlier post to you I mentioned three families... 2 out of three earn MORE than a hundred grand a year. As others mentioned to you, I can buy wild game at a meat market close to me. No health violations. Serious or otherwise. This is in the upscale Village of Milford, Michigan.
No "resort to" anything, choice of food, that's it, simply choice.

[hack89]

87. That merely makes you a pre-murderer

One day your guns will make you kill something. Thats what guns do.

[Travis_0004]

88. Im glad you used the sarcasm tag

My sarcasm meter is broken after all the dumb comments I hear sometimes.

[Thor_MN]

89. The families of people that are killed daily do consider it to be important.

And if the advocates of guns can't find a solution, eventually there will be a solution imposed.

[Orrex]

90. That's about as close to nonsensical as a claim can get

Curiously, gun advocates seem to think that it's some kind of trump card, and they deploy it as such. Twice so far in this thread, as it turns out.


The fact that an item hasn't yet been used for its intended purpose doesn't mean it's defective, and no one can seriously believe or argue otherwise. I've never written with a particular pen in my desk drawer; by your reasoning, that pen is defective.

[Thor_MN]

91. So you really can't vouch then?

I thought we had something going there.

If the individuals can't be identified, you do see that the weapons themselves can be readily identified? The best solution would be to remove them from people that can not handle them safely, but barring that we need to work towards reducing the sheer number of weapons?

[badtoworse]

92. Do you seriously believe that violent criminals practice shooting on the range?

Nice try tarring all firearms owners with the same broad brush and a similar nice try putting the onus of solving violent crime on legitimate firearms owners.

[flamin lib]

93. Oh the extremes the butters will go to in order to deflect,

obfuscate and avoid reality!

[badtoworse]

94. Read through the whole sub-thread. I was just pointing out vacuous blather for what it is.

[sarisataka]

95. With the recent meat labeling ruling

from the WTO, we envision our family soon getting all our meat from local farmers and hunting.

[Thor_MN]

96. No, I can speak for myself, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

You said that you do not consider that firearms are weapons to be important. I said that many people care deeply about that. Is that difficult for you to understand?

The onus of solving gun deaths IS on firearm owners, as if they can not come up with a solution on their own (the self-regulation that conservatives keep bleating about) a solution WILL be imposed upon them. At some point, this nation will recognize that firearms are an out of control situation, join the civilized world, and do something about it.

[ileus]

97. You need to get out some.

Between deer turkey and small game I know many folks that probably get 80% of their meat from the wild. Actual organic meat...

[hack89]

98. There are some here that actually think that way. nt

[hack89]

99. But doesn't the intent of the owner count for something?

If I bought my guns for target shooting and have never killed anything in 30 years then it seems pretty clear that their primary purpose under my ownership is not killing.

[badtoworse]

100. This isn't Australia. There are maybe a dozen states where more gun control has political support

Look at what happened in 1994 after the AWB. The political climate isn't any different today and since then the trend has been towards more gun rights (there are more "shall issue" states now than in 1994) rather than more gun control.

[colsohlibgal]

101. We Need To Hammer This Point

Not that it will move the crazy gun nuts or the NRA leadership. But it may eventually sway enough non loony gun people who might eventually get that the 2nd Amendment is being misinterpreted and was written a long time ago in a different USA.

I keep a baseball bat handy - not to kill an attacker but I'm guessing a broken shin or knee cap would dissuade any assailant.

[Orrex]

102. Sure! It counts for the intent of the object's owner, but not for the object's intent by design.

You are, in effect, repurposing the gun for an alternative use, much like putting a hammer to prop up an uneven table leg. The hammer wasn't designed for that purpose, but it can serve in that function.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

103. You declare it to be bogus but that doesn't make it so.

Those who are opposed to self-defense argue guns needlessly hurt people through misuse. They act as if guns somehow mystically alter the minds of normal people and turn them into violent monsters. If only we could eliminate guns the spell of the evil mojo will be broken.

Yet, there is a thing that does alter the mind and those alterations do lead to abhorrent and reckless behavior.

The misuse of alcohol leads to psoriasis, DUIs and other physical ailments. Moreover, guns bring with them an intrinsic understanding they are lethal the first time, every time. However, binge drinking is not only accepted it is expected if not outright encouraged in many instances.

Guns do not motivate people to violence; but to deny alcohol is an underlying factor in domestic abuse, sexual assault, child abuse and other forms of violence would be to stretch credulity beyond breaking.

Under-aged drinking claims 4,300 lives annually due to over-consumption of alcohol. That is more than 4 Sandy Hooks per week.

Of the 30,000 gun-related deaths each year 15,000 are suicides. That's 15,000 suicides out of 38,000. Having a gun in the house doesn't motivate people to kill themselves but of ALL suicides -- gun-related or otherwise -- alcohol is a significant factor.

I'm sure you'll have some hand-waving pronouncement as to why these facts are not facts or are immaterial.

[hack89]

104. Not everyone is pre-criminal

But in any case, what laws do you want?

[hack89]

105. So people's actions are irrelevant?

There is no distinction in your eyes between the legal and the illegal gun owner - the only thing that matters is the gun?

[aikoaiko]

106. So called bushmeat is likely as healthy or healthier than what people but at stories

[ileus]

107. Some progressives would go so far as to call it "organic"

Which is better

Chicken from Kroger

"Organic" Chicken from Kroger

Grouse from the back 40


I'll choose grouse every day of the week and twice on Saturday.

[ileus]

108. If used to protect or save the life of a family member or myself.

It will have fulfilled it's duty of saving lives. That is the reason for SD firearms.



Hunting firearms are made to harvest game, not to be confused with killing.

And with 80% of more of my firearms falling into the collecting or competition category they out number those designed to save lives specifically, thus my argument is credible.

[snooper2]

109. bushmeat LOL - have you ever even been in the woods?

[ileus]

110. I moved my snowblower from the outbuilding to the garage last weekend.

It's almost time to store the dirt bikes for the winter, that'll reclaim some space in the garage.

[Half-Century Man]

111. I am well aware of the proper name of a ball flail.

I intentionally chose to use the common name. I first saw the name Morgenstern (morning star) applied to the spiked maces (flexible or rigid) in a reference book in grade school in the 60's (I believe it was Edwin Tunis's illustrated book "Weapons&quot .

I found that since D&D came out, certain people (myself included) are more careful of using the proper names for weapons. I have also found out, we are not the majority. I chose to paint with a broad brush.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

112. I just don't have a huge drive

and I don't get enough regular exercise as I should, so I prefer to do as much 'manually' around the house as possible to help make up for it. I just didn't want to insult the person who gifted me with the snowblower by getting rid of it immediately.

[Orrex]

113. That's not what I said at all.

There is no distinction in your eyes between the legal and the illegal gun owner - the only thing that matters is the gun?

In terms of the design intent of the weapon, the actions of a subsequent owner are irrelevant.

This, I think, is what gun advocates tend to miss: their use (or non-use) of the weapon has no bearing whatsoever on what the weapon was designed to do. Using your AR-15 to rescue kittens or build a homeless shelter or kill a bus full of salesmen doesn't change what the gun was designed to do.

Therefore, the correct and accurate claim that guns are designed to kill is not refuted by examples of non-fatal gun use.


Incidentally, someone (wish I could remember who) on DU recently pointed out that beginning an reply with "So..." is a fairly reliable indicator of a straw man. I confess that I've committed exactly this same error, much as you just did. As a rule of thumb, it's proven true in nearly every case I've seen since first being made aware of it.

[Lurks Often]

114. Firearms are regulated

perhaps not to the degree you might wish, but they ARE regulated. The degree to which a firearm is regulated is dependent on Federal law and what state you live in, which has it owns laws which may or may not be even more restrictive.

You don't have to pass to pass a criminal background check to buy a spear, sword, mace, bow and arrows, crossbows, catapults, ballistia, nunchuku, shuriken, halberds or axe in a retail store. Some states may ban some or all of them outside of one's home and I believe a few ban some of them all together.

[safeinOhio]

115. Many deer are killed

in Michigan's UP with 410 slugs. Deer and bear are killed with bow and arrow.
Even larger shotguns are deadly with single shot weapons. If it takes you more than one round or a quick reload of another round in a breach load, you may want to take up fishing.
I've been hunting all of my life and I'm on SS and Medicare.

[linuxman]

116. The deep and abiding obsession with my

cock continues space, I see.

I'm cowed. Hell, just the other day someone talked about my friends penis. By lunch he had sold everyone gun he owned and donated the proceeds to the Brady campaign.

Support for gun control must be at an all time high!


Who have you swayed with this so far? Honestly?

[LondonReign2]

117. You identify one big difference that should be noted

"Under-aged drinking claims 4,300 lives annually due to over-consumption of alcohol."

Under-aged, i.e. not legal for someone under the age of 21.

We won't let kids under 21 vote or drink alcohol, but we are perfectly OK with them toting weapons around.

[badtoworse]

118. I hadn't considered shotgun slugs for big game, but they would not be my first choice

I've only used shotguns for birds and I tend to think of them in just that context.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

119. "We won't let kids under 21 vote or drink alcohol, but we are perfectly OK with them toting weapons"

Minors are not allowed to possess firearms unless under the supervision of an adult who is legally entitled to possess weapons.

Or was your point is to show prohibitions are impotent in stopping the acquisition and use of the presumably prohibited item?

[Orrex]

120. Well, no.

If used to protect or save the life of a family member or myself, it will have fulfilled it's duty of saving lives. That is the reason for SD firearms.

First, explain to me how an inanimate object can have a duty. If you're willing to personify the weapon in this way, then you can't claim that "guns don't kill people."

Second, in that example, how exactly will the weapon "save the life of a family member or (your)self?" By killing or injurying the assailant or by threatening the assailant with injury or death. Exactly as the OP pointed out.

Hunting firearms are made to harvest game, not to be confused with killing.

Is the previously living animal dead after this "harvesting" takes place? If yes, then it's a killing, and you're hiding behind a euphemism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

121. "attempt to stroll down the main street in your town...You won't make it two blocks."

I see you've never been to ComicCon.

[Autumn]

122. Locking. It is the hosts consensus this does not meet the SOP for GD

Please repost in the proper forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172