If they can quarantine a visibly healthy nurse with no sign or

[malaise]

symptom of a disease, it will be very easy to take away more of our freedoms.
This is very scary.

Pity they never showed this enthusiasm for the deaths by guns.

[morningfog]

1. Ultimately, no they cannot. She will win this battle.

[malaise]

2. I hope so

Looks like we're all being to to 'Sit down and Shut Up'!

[branford]

5. You keep on repeatedly stating that it's clear she'll win in court, but that does not make it so.

Under their policing powers, states have a great deal of discretion in dealing with potentially communicable diseases and quarantines have be instituted numerous time in our history. Moreover, those who are asymptomatic, but still at risk, are often quarantined to prevent the spread of an illness. Courts are generally very deferential to authorities in matters of public health.

I'm an attorney, and read numerous scholarly articles concerning whether Ms. Hickox will prevail in court. The opinions are mixed, but many are unfavorable to her position. Other than trite conclusory statements, would you care to provide some actual legal analysis?

[morningfog]

8. On due process and equal protection, she'll win.

Equal protection is the clearest winner. Non-health care workers arriving from the same locations are not under a quarantine order, regardless of the contacts they had. Health care workers in the US who have treated or been exposed to Ebola patients are not under similar orders. Non-health care workers in the US who have had contact with Ebola patients are not under the same orders.

On due process, there is no scientific support that an asymptomatic person is a risk to anyone. The state cannot arbitrarily restrict liberties without factual support. When the courts get into the details, the state will lose this. I'd be interested in ready any scholarly articles that come out the other way.

[Travis_0004]

11. Im not a lawyer, but what about this

§ 70.6Apprehension and detention of persons with specific diseases.

Regulations prescribed in this part authorize the detention, isolation, quarantine, or conditional release of individuals, for the purpose of preventing the introduction, transmission, and spread of the communicable diseases listed in an Executive Order setting out a list of quarantinable communicable diseases, as provided under section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act. Executive Order 13295, of April 4, 2003, as amended by Executive Order 13375 of April 1, 2005, contains the current revised list of quarantinable communicable diseases, and may be obtained at http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine and http://www.archives.gov/federal_register. If this Order is amended, HHS will enforce that amended order immediately and update its Web site.

EE 13295 specifically list ebola as a disease eligable for quarintine. I copied that from the CDC. It is a bit outdated, as Obama has issued an executive order modifying the law a bit, but Obama changes redefine SARS to include other closely related diaeases such as MERS, and dont affect ebola.

[GeorgeGist]

13. What part of 'with' do I not understand?

... of persons with specific diseases.

[branford]

16. The provision is of little value without the implementing regulations

and other relevant provisions, and more importantly, applicable legal decisions.

Note also that quarantine provisions are largely the province of state law. If Ms. Hilcox wishes to challenge her confinement, her avenues include both constitutional concerns and whether the state is properly complying with state law. Your citation, however, appears to concern CDC quarantine authority, and since in this instance only Maine is seeking the quarantine, the provisions, at best, have only minor persuasive authority.

The matter is simply far more complicated than many suggest, its resolution will likely occur in the appellate courts, if not the Supreme Court, and given that the 21 day incubation and quarantine period is rapidly coming to its conclusion, the matter might be rendered moot well before any final decision.

As a general matter, and as most trial attorneys would readily concede, courts are generally very deferential to state decisions in matters of public health. Comparisons to criminal matters and process is not appropriate. In light of the fact that the quarantine period is only three weeks, and in the case of Ms. Hilcox, in her own home, the matter is very public with around 80% supporting the quarantine, and Ms. Hilcox will not suffer any permanent harm from the quarantine, I would expect the typical deference to be quite apparent. Moreover, since courts generally maintain the status quo (i.e., quarantine) pending their final decisions, including appeals, the quarantine period may often end before substantive action (and it may provide many courts with a means to punt on rendering a sensitive opinion that could be reversed on appeal).

I would also note that Ms. Hilcox can possibly win the battle, and lose the proverbial war. She is very unpopular, and her attitude has not endeared her to many. Even if she wins, her reputation in her community is probably irreparably damaged. She's becoming the face of Ebola in the USA, and she doesn't even appear to have the disease. If she loses, she may end-up back in the tent quarantine due to her expressed unwillingness to comply with the quarantine conditions, and regardless of a win or loss, the public spectacle of an unpopular legal challenge will terribly injure the credibility and public trust in these aid workers. Ms. Hilcox appears to view herself and those like her as heroes. The public, however, is rapidly beginning to view them as selfish villains.

[Warpy]

3. That's why Kaci Hickox is such a brave woman

Maine is trying to quarantine her. She is suing.

There is no reason for it except that ignorant people are scared.

[uppityperson]

4. Exactly! Thank you for this. Your post is better worded than my similar one earlier.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025732072

[NutmegYankee]

6. Same crap rational used to confine Japanese citizens in WWII.

[branford]

17. Not really, and if you recall, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the internment.

I don't know how the courts will rule on these types of quarantines, if at all, but I would never take for granted that individual liberty will trump concerns for public health, even if the rationale for the quarantine is weak.

[NutmegYankee]

30. The court at the time upheld the internment.

Later society found it unjustified and Congress voted to compensate the survivors.

And yes, I consider confining healthy people to be the same, morally and ethically. People who are afraid need to get over it.

[Skidmore]

7. You may want to have a look at this little gem

of a story that was on NPR Morning Edition today.

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/29/359725475/can-authorities-cut-off-utilities-and-pose-as-repairmen-to-search-a-home

Can Authorities Cut Off Utilities And Pose As Repairmen To Search A Home?

October 29, 201412:53 AM ET
Nina Totenberg

Some legal cases do more than raise eyebrows — they push the legal envelope to change the law. Such is a federal case in Las Vegas now working its way through the courts. The question is whether federal agents can disrupt service to a house and then, masquerading as helpful technicians, gain entry to covertly search the premises in hopes of finding evidence that might later justify a search warrant.

The defendants in this case are not your everyday Americans. They are, in fact, Chinese gamblers who were staying in Las Vegas at Caesar's Palace earlier this year.

Caesar's, and other gambling casinos, thrive on these high-rollers and provide them with free villas, butlers and other services. But in this case, at least one of the high-rollers had been tossed out of Macau for running an illegal sportsbooking operation. That fact made the Nevada Gaming Commission and the FBI suspicious that the high-rollers were doing the same thing here.

Suspicions, however, aren't enough for a search warrant. So, according to court papers filed by defense lawyers late Tuesday, the FBI came up with a plan: Working with a computer contractor for Caesar's Palace, the agents first tried to get into the villas by delivering laptops and asking to come in to make sure the connections worked.

[malaise]

10. Life as we knew it

is over

[woo me with science]

27. Good god.

[Major Hogwash]

9. They'll haul your ass off while saying, "You look a little peaked this morning."

But, this guy, well, he's going to make sure everyone is quarantined . . . whether they like it or not!!!!!!!!

[img]

[/img]

[CanonRay]

12. Reminds me of when the Soviets

Used to put dissidents in asylums

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. That's what "quarantine" is.

Quarantines have been used in public health since since at least 1377, when the Mediterranean city of Dubrovnik (then known as Ragusa) isolated ships suspected of carrying the Black Plague for a 40-day period before letting them enter their ports. But they aren't widely enacted anymore because they often group whole categories of people together, without any consideration of individual risk, impeding civil liberties.

It's important to distinguish between quarantine, and isolation for infection control purposes. They mean different things, but have been used interchangeably in the news lately.

Isolation separates sick people who are contagious from healthy people, to stop them from spreading their disease.

Quarantine is a preventive measure: it separates healthy people who are at risk of developing an infectious disease from others, to wait and see if they become sick — in the hopes of stopping further disease spread.

In the context of Ebola, a quarantine would involve separating a healthy person who had contact with Ebola patients (e.g. health-care workers returning to the US from West Africa) from others for 21 days. Again, this is different from isolating people who have tested positive for Ebola in, say, a special unit at a hospital.

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7079655/quarantine-explainer

[kelliekat44]

15. How close are we to "You look African, so you and your family are quarantined." nt

[branford]

19. Not even remotely close, and the hyperbole is unhelpful to the discussion.

The more relevant question is, "Have you traveled to west Africa within the last 21 days?"

The fact that a majority of those individual might be African or African-American does not make a quarantine racist or impermissible. Ebola does not care if you're black, white or anything else.

[uppityperson]

22. Ebola does not care but the public does. Quick search gives me these incidents....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/29/us/connecticut-school-ebola-lawsuit/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Connecticut girl barred from school amid Ebola fears (traveled to Nigeria)

http://time.com/3542955/senegal-kids-brothers-assaulted-ebola-bronx-tremont-school-new-york-city-pabe-amadou-drame/

Kids from Senegal Were Beaten Up in NYC by Classmates Yelling ‘Ebola’
Elizabeth Barber Oct. 28, 2014
Ironically, Senegal is Ebola-free and has been widely praised for its response to the disease

Two Senegalese-American brothers were assaulted at a New York City school by classmates who yelled “Ebola” at them.

(clip)
The boys were “rushed to the hospital with severe injuries,” the council said in statement.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/21/cant-ebola-become-latest-racist-national-security-issue/

Sixty miles southeast of Dallas, Navarro College earlier this month denied admission to two Nigerian students, not because they were diagnosed with Ebola but simply because they were from a country stricken by the disease. Never mind that Nigeria did a remarkable job in containing Ebola, went six weeks without new cases, and this week was declared Ebola free by the World Health Organization.

Such racial embarrassments aren’t confined to Texas. The week before last in Nazareth, Pennsylvania, a Guinean high school soccer player from Nazareth Area High School was subjected to chants of “Ebola” from opposing players on rival Northampton High School’s team. The chants left him in tears. Northampton’s head and assistant coach have since resigned from their positions and disciplinary action against the heckling players is pending. Meanwhile, a few parents in Mississippi decided to pull their children from a middle school after discovering the school’s principal returned from a trip to Zambia, a country nowhere near the Ebola outbreak.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mama-tis-african-kitchen-changes-menu-2014-10

MaMaTi's restaurant forced to change its name over ebola fears, may go out of business

[branford]

23. Anecdotes are not data or proof of pervasive trends.

It's easy to find stupid examples of racism or basic foolishness, with or without Ebola concerns.

[Major Hogwash]

29. Since Obama is from Kenya, we've already crossed that line a looooonnnngggg time ago!!!

I heard that he brought his witch doctor over with him, though, so he'll be okay.

But, as for the rest of us, we are so screwn!!

"21 days in the cooler, Hogan!!"

[cwydro]

18. This is how we have the NSA spying on us now.

As Will Pitt put it the other day, we are a nation of cowards.

We'll give up our freedom any day of the week for some illusion of safety. Whatever the MSM says to be scared of....oh yes, let's run screaming for our pearls....

Sickening. And to see it here on DU has really surprised me.

[seabeyond]

20. my god. we fuckin went thru this stupid with tsa nad patriot. we were fcukin cowards. i stopped

flying because of the cowards. and now we are doing the same thing cause we are afraid.

i cannot stand this type of cowardliness at the expense of reason and knowledge.

[LostInAnomie]

21. Since when do public health officials not have the right to quarantine?

It's not like is something new. Public health always trumps personal liberty.

[magical thyme]

24. they have a right to quarantine, but it must be based on medical science, not political polls

And under Maine laws, the quarantine is voluntary.

I suspect they will have to prove that she is a risk to public health. With medical scientists pretty unanimous about Ebola -- not contagious during incubation period -- that will be a tough thing to prove.

She has tested negative twice. She is healthy. There is no reason why she can't be going about her life, reporting her temps twice/day and monitoring for symptoms.

[treestar]

25. I don't see anybody on DU really looking into the laws

Just a lot of swearing and declaring.

Maybe "the science" does call for a quarantine. There could be cases where it does.

[magical thyme]

34. I did, and the science doesn't.

I couldn't find the laws themselves, but it was the middle of the night and I didn't feel like going past the 1st page of results, all of which were articles. Also, I've read extensively about Ebola. It is not contagious during the incubation period. You don't develop symptoms until it is out of the incubation period. She has been tested twice and come up negative each time. She remains asymptomatic (although I haven't checked the news this am, so don't know if she spiked a temp this am).

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-ebola-nurse-quarantine-20141029-story.html

"But Maine could have problems enforcing the quarantine, said Paul Millus, a New York attorney and civil rights litigator.

“The problem with this particular case is apparently Ms. Hickox is not demonstrating any symptoms whatsoever of Ebola infection,” he said.

Millus said Maine’s law required the state to show “clear and convincing evidence” that someone quarantined for health reasons posed a public health threat.

Without Hickox showing symptoms, he said it would be difficult for the state to satisfy that requirement."

[treestar]

35. So you didn't feel like looking at the laws

That might ruin the outrage.

[magical thyme]

36. I relied on a civil rights lawyer, who did look at the laws.

and here's a link to Maine DHHS -- I still haven't been able to find the laws this am. Maybe you will have better luck than I have. Before you waste too much of your time, my google search at Maine.gov has brought up 7 pages of results that seem to relate solely to agriculture and abused animals.

http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/


From their press release on Tuesday. Boldface is mine:

"Any traveler from West Africa who comes to Maine will be monitored for at least 21 days after the last possible exposure to Ebola. This is consistent with federal guidelines. This monitoring includes daily check-ins with a state epidemiologist for any signs of a fever or other Ebola related symptoms. If any symptoms develop, they will receive immediate medical care.

We have instituted additional protocols for ensuring that those individuals with a higher level of risk do not unnecessarily make contact with the public. These protocols include voluntary, in-home quarantine for someone who was known to have had direct contact with an Ebola patient....

...If an individual who came in direct contact with Ebola patients has returned to Maine and is not willing to avoid public contact and stay in their home voluntarily during the period they are at some risk, we will take additional measures and pursue appropriate authority to ensure they make no public contact."

They will pursue authority because they do not currently have the authority. That is why they will have to take it to court.


And here is their statement on Ebola disease. Boldface is theirs, not mine.

"Transmission is usually through direct contact with the blood, sweat, emesis, feces and other body secretions of an infected person, contact with an infected animal in the affected countries, or exposure to objects (such as needles) that have been contaminated with infected secretions. Patients with Ebola Virus Disease who are not showing symptoms are not infectious."
http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/mecdc/infectious-disease/epi/zoonotic/ebola/

[vicdoc]

26. Fear is the fastest way to lose freedom...

I don't think they'll be able to short of a court order.

However, after the NYC experience of Dr. Spencer who went all over NYC, taking public transportation, using Uber, going bowling and eating at restaurants, all while having a fever, people are not happy he didn't voluntarily stay at home. Some of the places he visited closed down to decontaminate. Nurses at the hospital he is now staying (Bellevue) are not happy to be working there, calling in sick, being shunned by their co-workers, even family, and being discriminated by people who serve them (hairdressers, etc).

A single Ebola patient can shut down the ICU of a hospital for weeks. Local hospitals are not equipped to deal with a BSL4 pathogen like Ebola.

The likelihood she will get Ebola is low. But there is no vaccine or proven treatment for Ebola means an infection is not preventable like with measles, smallpox, etc are... Dr. Spencer thought he was fine, too.

I would agree with one thing she says: more education is needed, and certainly a lot more research to develop vaccines.

If they are clamoring to quarantine her then I wonder why they don't also do the same for the workers caring for the Ebola patients in hospitals here, in Dallas, NY, Atlanta, etc...

In order to get in front of the fear factor even California has just announced a 21 day quarantine too. And I predict a drip, drip, drip of scares and actual Ebola cases which will cause many more states to enact quarantines, and I think Obama will eventually do the same thing.

Waiting for people to get past the incubation period doesn't seem like a major inconvenience when you're talking about Ebola.

Guns? The murder rate has fallen by half over the past 20 years. You wouldn't know it given the hysterical coverage of everything that bleeds on TV news.

Our freedoms? Sorry, going, going, gone. It started long ago, and they're not coming back.

[malaise]

31. Good post

Welcome to DU

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. We are nothing more than a society that answers TO, works FOR, and gets punished BY a government.

Of the People, By the People, FOR the People?

We got away from that when our Parents/Grandparents allowed FDR to send American Citizens of Japanese descent to internment camps.

At this moment there is a "government class", and the "rest of us". Every generation the divide gets bigger, and the control of one over the other gets greater.

We vote for names. Hello? How many Kennedys have you voted for? How many Browns? How many families have passed congressional and senate seats down like they were willed to their heirs... and for no other reason than we VOTED for them?

[Oktober]

32. So you are wishing that they would violate an entirely different set of rights...

Odd how folks only care about some parts of the Constitution and BoR ...

[boston bean]

33. Do I sense a panic of gov't taking away freedoms??

Come on, 21 days in your own home is not having your freedoms taken away.

Science is this.

Early stages of the virus do not show in blood tests.
There is a 21 day incubation period.
Containment of those exposed to ebola is part and parcel of preventing further spread.

I wish people would calm down about a nurse having to do 21 days of self isolation in her own home would stop panicking.