So The American Voters Have Rewarded The ReThugs For Shutting Down The Government....

[global1]

obstructing everything President Obama wanted to accomplish; sticking with the NRA; refusing to raise the minimum wage; refusing to deal with the immigration issue; piling more debt on students/student loans; voting to repeal ACA over 50 times when the American People finally had some relief on health insurance; and the list goes on and on. What is wrong with the American People. They believe the lies. They like to be lied to. They vote against their better interests.

I'm sick to my stomach and dread the next 2 years. They will continue to lie and to do more damage to this country. The American People just kowtowed to bullies. They rewarded them. We got the best government that the Koch brothers money can buy. What a sad, sad day for America.

[marions ghost]

1. This is the problem

Liars and bullies win because they appear strong.

We just can't win against the barrage of lies and distortion. I see it in the neighborhood where my MIL lives. These people are fed this rightwing vomit via TV and radio 24/7. It's a kind of bonding for them.

[malletgirl02]

3. So Elections are just like Middle/ High School?

Whoever said we never really leave high school was so right.

[marions ghost]

11. Yeah and ya gotta support the team y'know

--

[politicman]

7. bullcrap

People vote according to their interests, and this election has shown that the people who voted in this election voted against Obama because he did not better their lives.

[hwmnbn]

12. How have the republicans bettered their lives? ....

Please be specific. Thanks.

[politicman]

13. they havent, but thats not the point

They haven't, but that's not the point.

Its Obama that is in the white house, its Obama that gets the last sign on what legislation becomes law, its Obama that controls the justice department, its Obama that is the face of the nation,

and so when their lives are not bettered, yet at the very same time the lives of the 1%ers have never been better, then it is Obama that gets blamed and it is Obama that held responsible for the rich having the best 6 years of their lives whilst the poor and working class struggle even more.

[hwmnbn]

15. Let's take this in order...

...Obama that gets the last sign on what legislation becomes law

There has been nothing but republican obstruction. What legislation has he failed to sign? Yet even in this toxic adversarial congressional environment, here's what he has accomplished.
http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/ ... with links for your convenience.

...its Obama that controls the justice department

No, the Justice Department is designed to be independent of political influence. You're thinking of the George W. Bush presidency. Remember the firing of all those Attorney Generals who wouldn't play along with Rove's agenda?

...so when their lives are not bettered

See the link above. The economy was saved from collapsing, as was General Motors. Bin Laden was killed. Unemployment is at a 7-year low. The stock market is at a record high. Gas prices are at a 4-year low. Same sex couples are recognized at the federal level and benefits afforded to them. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is operational. Mortgage rates are down. Millions of people now have newly acquired health insurance. And that's just off the top of my head.

So contrary to your contention, everyone's lives (including YOURS) have been bettered in some way over his presidency. You may not "FEEL" it is enough. But if you THINK about it objectively, you can't deny the improvement.

[politicman]

19. my objective response.

I was saying because Obama gets the last word on any legislation, he gets perceived to be the cause of no good legislation coming through. Rightly or wrongly, Obama is the face of the country because he is the face of the government, so it is Obama that is painted with every success and every failure of legislation that does or does not get passed.

Don't get me started on all those times that Obama either caved, compromised or did not fight hard enough to get certain legislation passed that would have bettered everybodys lives.

Remember that one time that Obama stood his ground, fought the Repugs and didn't compromise, yep that time when the government was shut down, well that ended with Obama winning, the Repugs caving and the Repugs being the ones who lost support.


Obama gets to decide who the Attorney General can be, he gets to decide which nominee will be put up for that role, so when Obama chooses Holder and he gets passed, it is Obama who is at fault for the 1%ers not being prosecuted.
No president in his right mind would select an attorney general who wasn't on the same page as him when it comes to that sort of thing.


The economy as indeed saved from collapsing, but it was and is the rich that are getting the most out of the economy being saved. Obama had an opportunity to change things, he started his presidency when the rich were being vilified for crashing the economy, he started when the economy was in free fall and everyone knew the rich were to blame for that, yet instead of taking that opportunity to fundamentally change things, he caved in to the same practice that's been going on for decades, namely let the rich influence his policies.

Bin Laden being killed bettered no ones lives, it was just something that made people for good for a short time as Bin Laden was no longer a threat. Unemployment may be at 7 year low, but how many of those jobs can people actually live on, whist at the very same time the rich are making more money than they have ever made ever. Gas prices are low just recently, and seriously how long do you think it will be before they skyrocket again.
Mortgage rates are down, but if peoples income is not rising and their jobs don't pay good enough, then whats the point of an interest rates being low if you cant afford to even make the minimum repayments.

The only 2 in that list that Obama has bettered peoples lives with are health insurance and same sex benefits.

Obama has had 6 years in office, and all he could do was better peoples lives with those 2 things.

And because you are so objectively viewing this, please provide a list for me of all the things that Obama promised to do and could have fought tooth and nail to do but didn't do.
Also provide a list of the things that Obama said he would never do, yet turned around and did or proposed to do.

[hwmnbn]

27. I gave you a list of his accomplishments upthread...

Everyone was hoping that Obama was the second coming of FDR. He isn't and many democrats are pissed as I suspect you are.

Your perception seems to be that all those above mentioned accomplishments simply weren't enough. In your reality everything sucks now and it is all Obama's fault. That's why the voters (who always "vote their interest&quot rewarded the republicans. I find that argument absurd.

Just as a test, in the the past 20 years, how have the republicans bettered our lives? I've looked for for a comparable list of their accomplishments and can't find one, can you? I submit they haven't done ONE thing that betters our lives, just the opposite. From restricting reproductive rights, to repealing healthcare, to voter suppression, to shutting down the government, they've done more damage to our well-being than anyone. Where is your anger at that? I don't see it.

I'm disappointed in last night results, but placing the blame entirely on Obama is neither fair nor accurate, IMO.

We'll get a chance to evaluate the republican performance in two years. I believe I have a reasonable expectation of their objectives because of past performance. I'm willing to bet our lives will be much worse off. What do you think?

[politicman]

30. I expect the Repugs to be bad, whereas I want the people we voted for to do the things they promised

You are right, the Repugs have done nothing to better the lives of any Americans except douches like the Koch Brothers, but when the Repugs promise their constituency that they will fight for something, they do it because they know that their base will vote others to replace them. That's how we got the even kookier Tea Party.

Obama put himself in that hole, he promised the world of progressive ideas when he was campaigning both times, and we all expect him to do those things, or at the very least fight like hell to do those things.

I am not angry at the Repugs, only because I know where they stand, what their motives are and who they serve. I expect my enemy to be a bad entity, so I am not surprised or angry when they act the way I expect them to.

What makes me angry is someone from our side saying that he is fighting for us, and then turning his back on us because he couldn't be stuffed fighting hard against our enemies and instead just caves on so many issues.

When you wake up and finally see that there is only so many times that a politician can ignore his base after he is elected, then you will understand why young people, minorities and the base didn't go to the polls today.

[hwmnbn]

32. Now I see. You feel betrayed by Obama because he's "caved" on so many issues close to your heart...

Fair enough. You are disillusioned, disheartened, angry and resentful because the hope and change Obama campaigned on did not come to pass to your satisfaction. You feel like your representative did not fight hard enough for your ideals.

I am not angry at the Repugs, only because I know where they stand

So it's not a matter of policy, it's all about the political tactics. You are envious of the republicans because they always fight for their base. I get that. I also admire their tenacity and marvel at their mendacity but so what? That just means they are tenacious and mendacious assholes.

But here is where you and I differ. I am much more angry at the republicans precisely because I know where they stand. They are antithetical to all I know. IMO, rich republicans are motivated primarily by their financial interests. Poor and middle class republicans are motivated by fear, racism, xenophobia and homophobia. Prove me wrong if you can. What else do they offer their base? That is their coalition and IMO, their kiss of death, unless WE give up.

I also want the democratic party to be the DEMOCRATIC party. All the important issues favor us, we just have to persevere, get better candidates, more grass roots involvement, and most importantly, don't give up out of frustration. Republicans count on that.

When you wake up... then you will understand why young people, minorities and the base didn't go to the polls today.

Yep, THAT showed them. Throw a hissy fit and DON'T vote out of spite. How did that work out for you? I doubt that's a winning strategy for young people, minorities and the base. I suggest you guys throw that strategy out the door.




Anyway politicman, I appreciate this conversation and your willingness to engage in debate.

[politicman]

34. i see this pain as necessary to affect better change in the future

I too appreciate this conversation and your willingness to discuss these issues.

I want to say that I have a totally different view on who is to blame for this election debacle. I don't hold the voters with more responsibility just because they get to cast a vote for specific candidates, on the contrary I hold the politicians with more blame and responsibility because the way it is supposed to work is that the politicians win your vote with their ideas and their performance.

I know that the Repugs have gained from democrats not voting, and I know that we will experience plenty of pain with this result, but I hold the view that this pain is necessary to finally shake up the Dem party so they can realise that they cannot take their base for granted anymore.

II personally don't see much difference between the parties when it comes to who they serve, they both don't serve their base, they both serve the wealthy lobbyists who line their pockets with money to get their interests served.

The Repugs don't hide the fact that they are in the pocket of the wealthy but their base is just too stupid and ignorant to send them a message, whereas we progressives pride ourselves on not being like the Repugs, we have the ability to think for ourselves and others, we have the ability to stand for our morals.

And in this case, we have decided that it is better to stand on our morals and give the Dem party a massive kick in the ass in the hope that the party leaders wake up and realise that unless they fight for our progressives ideas, then they will lose and lose badly even if we suffer in the process.

To us, we see it as better to make a stand and demand change even if it hurts us in the process, rather than just keep accepting the status quo that sees only the wealthy making more money because our members cant ween themselves off the teet of wealthy lobbyists.

[hwmnbn]

35. You make valid points and I can't argue with your overall assessment.

I still maintain it is the voters' responsibility to elect representatives that reflect their views and then hold them accountable for their votes and actions.

Unfortunately, I'm ideologically to the left of Che Guevara so there are very few candidates that meet my criteria and I've have to make some political accommodations at times. LOL

Although I'm disappointed with last night's results, I've experienced worse political calamities over the years, so it's not that big a deal in comparison. The one constant source of comfort is that my progressive beliefs have not dimmed or changed over time. Rather, they've gotten stronger. It will always be a struggle, but our progressive ideals are worth it.

I believe we are both rowing in the same direction.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. "No, the Justice Department is designed to be independent of political influence."

That's so precious.

[hwmnbn]

36. It's true. That's the way it's supposed to be...

It's not necessarily the way it always is.

But I doubt your sarcastic cynicism is making anything better. Any suggestions on how to fix this bullshit?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. "Any suggestions on how to fix this bullshit?"

If you're buying bull for any purpose other than making hamburger all you're going to get is BS.

[hwmnbn]

38. I don't follow...

If you're buying bull for any purpose other than making hamburger all you're going to get is BS.

I'm very bad at decoding metaphors.

Do you have any solutions to fix the problem of a politicized Justice Department?

If yes, I'd like to hear it. If no, then I suspect this conversation is just the aforementioned BS.


Am I close??

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. It's yet one more component of a system that centralizes power.

You can't fix it. Too many humans are too inherently corrupt. The corrupt cannot be kept from the instruments of power because they invariably seek out the instruments of power -- because they're corrupt. Any good and honest people that may be found from time to time are more a matter of Fortune than Providence.

Why do you think we remember the name Cincinnatus after thousands of years? Because the dictator who isn't self-serving is so rare he only happens along once every few thousand years. Yet, living memory alone vomits up the names Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hussein, Assad, Putin, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet, etc. etc. etc.

The only way to keep power from being corrupted is to never create or maintain the instruments of power.

If you keep buying bulls all you're ever going to get out of them is bullshit. Unless you eat them.

[hwmnbn]

40. Thanks for your explanation, I see what you're saying...

You can't fix it

Damn!! Yet we spend billions on our Justice System. Sounds like a big waste of money.

The only way to keep power from being corrupted is to never create or maintain the instruments of power.

So are you suggesting we eliminate the Justice Department so as not to tempt corrupt officials of abusing it?


I'm not sure that's a viable solution. How would our modern society function without an official arbiter of conflicts among the citizenry? Without a Justice System would we not devolve into full-blown anarchy?

When I get some free time, I'll have to give this predicament some thought.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. "Without a Justice System would we not devolve into full-blown anarchy?"

1) "Justice" is the last thing the system provides

2) *ahem* (points to avatar)

[geek tragedy]

16. Explain Brownback and Scott winning then. nt

[politicman]

17. like this.

Those two winning shows exactly the point I was making.

There will always be racists and idiots in a country of 300 million, there will always be those that support the Repug no matter how good Obama's presidency proves for the nation, etc.

But the fact that those other people (either the ones that supported Obama previously or the ones that were on the fence) either failed to vote or chose to vote against Obama actually proves the point I was making.

You need to give people a reason to choose you, and more importantly to actually take the time to go and vote for you.

Obama and his policies (which lets be honest are no where near progressive enough) ended up alienating a lot of those fence sitters and those that previously supported him.

You cant promise so many things to so many groups of people, and then fail to deliver and not expect blowback.

Just the fact that the rich have had the best six years of their lives under this presidency with all time high profits, whilst the middle class and poor are losing more and more, shows that Obama's decision to not go after those that wrecked the economy in 2008 was the worst decision he could ever have made.

He was a community organiser, meaning he used to help those at the bottom, YET he gets into power and it is those at the top that benefit the most whilst those at the bottom lose more and more, how on earth did that happen?

[geek tragedy]

18. No, the fact is that Democrats do much better

with him on the ballot than without him. Compare 2010 and 2014 with 2012.

Democratic base doesn't put in much effort during midterms.

[politicman]

21. and why is that....

The only reason Democrats do much better with him on the ballot, is because he is such a dynamic speaker that he with his speeches he instils hope into people. But that's a short lived thing, because without those speeches to keep the people revved up with hope, the actual reality of his policies and his weakness in standing up for progressives ideas sinks in and people make decisions on whether to vote with their brain and not their heart/hope.

And the million dollar question is why don't democratic base put much effort into mid-term elections?

Could it be that the base elects leader after leader who promises to stand up for progressive ideas, who then always succumbs and caves in to the 1%ers and abandons the base when they are in office.

Could it have something to do with the base not being energised enough to put effort into mid-term elections because the party, led by the president, ends up disappointing and not giving a reason for the base to be energised enough to vote.

hmm....

[geek tragedy]

23. That's ODS, not analysis.

The trend predates Obama. Democrats have won 1--ONE!-off-year election since 1990. And that was because w Bush was president and shit was melting down.

The groups with the biggest drop off between presidential and off year elections:

young people
people of color, especially Latinos and African-Americans

You make the electorate older and whiter, and it's going to be more Republican.

And why does the Democratic leadership in Congress not advance more progressive legislation? Because they're too busy getting their asses handed to them every off-year election to build any momentum or numbers in Congress.

When their base gets upset and disappointed, they vote. When our base gets upset and disappointed, they disengage.

Republicans have been pissed at their establishment for the better part of a decade. They still vote. And it pays off for them.

[politicman]

25. why not blame the politicians that were given a chance to perform in office and failed to do so...

Hmm, you choose to frame the argument by putting the onus on the young people and minorities to keep electing democratic politicians who keep disappointing with their policies.

Why not put the onus on the politicians that promise one thing when they are running for office, and then fail to follow through on those promises when elected.

Take Obama as a perfect example:

Obama was a up and coming senator, but nobody gave him a chance to win the nomination against Hillary, let alone win the presidency.

It was the young people that believed in Obama's message of hope and change. They saw in Obama a community organiser who was telling them that he would change the way Washington operated, and that he would bring about the change in policies that the young people were so desperate for.
After all, if a community organiser was propelled into the White House, surely that would be the best time to effect change in both domestic and foreign policies.

They believed all the things that candidate Obama was telling them, they worked their asses off tirelessly to first help Obama defeat Hillary for the nomination, and then worked doubly hard to help Obama get elected to the presidency in 2008.

When Obama disappointed them after being elected, the groups that worked hardest for him had lost faith and decided to not work hard for him anymore by staying home in 2010.

When the next election cycle came around, and even though these groups had lost trust in Obama, they rallied behind him again because he had the ability through his speeches to instil hope again even though they had been burned by him once already.

But true to form, Obama again disappointed after he was re-elected, and again the young and minorities figured that it was not worth fighting for him again so they stayed home last night.

Seems to me, that if you a certain group of people work their asses off to get you elected, you should work just as hard as president to not disappoint those groups. Obama showed on so many occasions that he was not willing to fight for these groups as hard as they fought for him, immigration reform being one such area where he gave up too easily after promising the Hispanics he would fight tooth and nail for this reform.


Lesson, if a group of people give you the honor of them voting for you the first time, don't disappoint them and then expect them to work hard for or even vote for you the second time, etc.

[geek tragedy]

26. again, that is pretzel logic.

You're claiming Obama's policies played no role when he was on the ballot, and are the primary driver of the elections when he's not on the ballot.

Young voters have always had a shitty record when it comes to voting.

[politicman]

29. wake up and see what is right in front of us all.

No I am saying that when Obama is on the ballot, he promises nothing but progressives ideas and then after the election he turns around and either doesn't fight hard enough for those policies or he does the exact opposite.

Wake up and see that Obama promised nothing but progressive ideas when he was campaigning, and then when he governs he compromises with the Repugs on too many issues or gives up the fight too easily.

You can only fool the electorate that fought hard for you and voted for you so many times, before they lose interest in ever voting or fighting for you again.

There is a list a mile wide of things that Obama promised when campaigning, and did not follow through on,. either because he didn't want to fight the Repugs hard enough, or because he himself doesn't really believe in all the progressive ideas he campaigned on.

[MFM008]

2. I know

I voted anyway...

[Dawson Leery]

4. This is a stupid nation.

I would advise Britain to end the Anglo-American partnership and go with Europe.

In the rest of the world, a party that cannot pass a budget has to go to an election and they usually lose. In America, they are rewarded.

[KingCharlemagne]

5. The American people deserve to suffer for their racism and cupidity. And suffer they shall. Expect

a new recession with unemployment back above 8-9% in about 6-9 months. And this time, there'll be less food stamps and unemployment insurance to stimulate demand.

[moondust]

6. Yep.

Republicans have learned their lesson that obstructionism and voter suppression and propaganda and dark money buying elections and gerrymandering WORK GREAT!!!

Now watch them double down on all of the above.

[global1]

8. It's All Over But The Gloating......nt

[Brigid]

9. How much you wanna bet . . .

Most people don't even remember the government shutdown?

[SomethingFishy]

14. +1.. My son and I were just discussing this,

He had forgotten all about it till someone mentioned it on MSNBC. The Republicans do so much fucked up shit it makes it hard to keep track of.

This is the Democrats big problem, they lost to someone who doesn't exist, and they spent no time proving the "tough but compassionate pro life Republican does't exist. If you look at the issues that were voted on, liberal issues won by landslide victories. In my state, Colorado, the Personhood amendment was soundly defeated for like the 4th time in a row, yet one of the guys who crafted the bill won the Senate seat. Go figure.

[Chathamization]

10. Well, the media coverage for the government shutdown was: "Both sides are to blame...anyway, the

website for the ACA is really messed up, Obama's letting Putin invade Ukraine, immigrant children are swarming over our borders, the terrorist hordes are conquering the Middle East, and Ebola will kill us all."

[BlindTiresias]

20. Radical politics work.

Doesn't matter what stripe, people just eat that shit up.

[standingtall]

22. I've said this for years

Democratic voters do not understand the importance of midterm elections so they fail to show up to vote for them. Also it doesn't help to run centrist candidates who are incapable of firing up the base and educating the voters on the importance of the issues.

[B Calm]

24. Republicans have been good teachers. Hopefully congressional dems learned

how to act the next two years!

[Hugin]

28. Expect more of it...

Because, it only gets worse from here.

[J_J_]

31. minimum wage won with 65%

yet they expect us to believe koch clone with no support beat incumbent mark begich