General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBREAKING: The US and China Just Announced a Huge Deal on Climate—and it's a Gamechanger
Last edited Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:26 AM - Edit history (1)
President Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping met today in Beijing. Ju Peng/Xinhua/ZUMA
The surprise agreement aims to double the pace of carbon pollution reduction in the United States.
By Tim McDonnell and James West
In a surprise announcement Tuesday night, the world's two biggest economies and greenhouse gas emitters, United States and China, said they will partner closely on a broad-ranging package of plans to fight climate change, including new targets to reduce carbon pollution, according to a statement from the White House.
The announcement comes after President Obama met in Beijing with Chinese President Xi Jinping, and includes headline-grabbing undertakings from both countries which are sure to breathe new life into negotiations to reach a new climate treaty in Paris next year.
According to the plan, the United States will reduce carbon emissions 26-28 percent below 2005 levels by 2025, nearly twice the existing targetwithout imposing new restrictions on power plants or vehicles
Tuesday's announcement is equally remarkable for China's commitment. For the first time, China has set a date at which it expects its emissions will "peak," or finally begin to taper downwards: around 2030. China is currently the world's biggest emitter of carbon pollution, largely because of its coal-dependent economy, and reining in emissions while continuing to grow has been the paramount challenge for China's leaders.
MOre..
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/11/obama-just-announced-historic-climate-deal-china
China, America and Our Warming Planet
John Kerry: Our Historic Agreement With China on Climate Change
snip//
BEIJING The United States and China are the worlds two largest economies, two largest consumers of energy, and two largest emitters of greenhouse gases: Together we account for about 40 percent of the worlds emissions.
We need to solve this problem together because neither one of us can solve it alone. Even if the United States somehow eliminated all of our domestic greenhouse gas emissions, it still wouldnt be enough to counteract the carbon pollution coming from China and the rest of the world. Likewise, even if China went down to zero emissions, it wouldnt make enough of a difference if the United States and the rest of the world didnt change direction.
MOre..
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/opinion/john-kerry-our-historic-agreement-with-china-on-climate-change.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
Suck on that, Kocksters.
And, I'll leave on this note.. from SOS John Kerry's OP in the NYT~from the link..
"There is no question that all of us will need to do more to push toward the de-carbonization of the global economy. But in climate diplomacy, as in life, you have to start at the beginning, and this breakthrough marks a fresh beginning: Two countries regarded for 20 years as the leaders of opposing camps in climate negotiations have come together to find common ground, determined to make lasting progress on an unprecedented global challenge. Lets ensure that this is the first step towards a world that is more prosperous and more secure."
Cha
(297,154 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)William769
(55,145 posts)on it.
Cha
(297,154 posts)coming Russia.. we'd certainly get a better grip on our handle, William!
Segami
(14,923 posts)is that a new ecco-friendly high-performance electric car?
The new 454i Turbo Kochster ....................
Cha
(297,154 posts)This Drexel University professor discovered the largest and most consistent funders behind the climate change denial movement are a number of well-known conservative foundations, mostly through "dark money."
MOre..
http://crooksandliars.com/2013/12/its-not-just-koch-brothers-funding-climate
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)And what will that peak be - they are already the Largest emitter of green house gases
How anyone can praise this as a break through is just as bad as the climate deniers
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)If anything china probably figures they will completely own us economically by 2030 and then they can do whatever they want anyway. They don't keep their promises when it comes to things that may stand in the way of their government's desires.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)setting an date for reduction would be considered a break through by anyone that recognizes that prior to this announcement, there WAS no effort to reduce green house gases by the Chinese.
But "What do we want? ... EVERYTHING ... When do we want it? ... YESTERDAY! ... How we gonna get other nations to fall in line? ... {crickets}"
Hestia
(3,818 posts)around Beijing and other parts of China. This is on top of the current uprising. People are starting to call in sick to work when it is really bad, which is astounding. China has its own reasons to stop the generating of pollutants leading to GW in their own backyard; in order to prove to its citizens that they are taking air quality & GW seriously. (I have no idea what the "A" in AGW means so I do not use that acronym, if I am wrong so be it.)
Now...whether something will be actually done about it, WTFK. Koch's won this election so we don't know what is going to happen - maybe one of them (or both) will kick off (sooner than later) (smib). If there is a vacuum in leadership, we can all start to enact policies, hurriedly, until they get their act together. If not, I see business as usual, with growth at 2-4%. No change in anything. Same ol same ol
woolldog
(8,791 posts)What is China doing? I'm not clear on what China is sacrificing with this deal?
BP2
(554 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Yupster
(14,308 posts)China agrees to peak 15 years from now.
So it's in their interest to run up their emissions as much as possible to make that peak number as easy to live with as possible.
Hopefully there's more to it than that.
earthside
(6,960 posts)After all a lot of China's carbon emissions comes from manufacturing products for us.
In effect we have off-shored our pollution, too.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Hestia
(3,818 posts)and with some slight accordance on the Umbrella Revolution (like all uprisings it is has dropped from the news quickly), I think that China will be like Germany by 2030 -- unlike us, unless we get our acts together.
Maybe it is the way I am reading his statement, but it is almost a shot across the bow moment. "Let's see who gets their first," attitude about it, which is good for us/US. If we do nothing, China takes over top dog slot for the next 100-350 years (not that there is anything wrong with that*) which has diplomats pausing in the West. China can explode in their markets if they turn inward and use those yuan's they've kept careful control of for decades, freezing out the West, because they've collectively decided to do something as a nation. They are good at it. They have millennial of experience of thinking generations down the road while we get distracted by the next shiny pretty we see.
This plays right into China's hands and will be interesting to see how we, as a nation, play by their rules or ours. This is a game they can win, economically and diplomatically.
* pop tv reference
Cha
(297,154 posts)The Chinese targets also represent a major advance. For the first time China is announcing a peak year for its carbon emissions around 2030 along with a commitment to try to reach the peak earlier. That matters because over the past 15 years, China has accounted for roughly 60 percent of the growth in carbon dioxide emissions world-wide. We are confident that China can and will reach peak emissions before 2030, in light of President Xis commitments to restructure the economy, dramatically reduce air pollution and stimulate an energy revolution.
China is also announcing today that it would expand the share of total energy consumption coming from zero-emission sources (renewable and nuclear energy) to around 20 percent by 2030, sending a powerful signal to investors and energy markets around the world and helping accelerate the global transition to clean-energy economies. To meet its goal, China will need to deploy an additional 800 to 1,000 gigawatts of nuclear, wind, solar and other renewable generation capacity by 2030 an enormous amount, about the same as all the coal-fired power plants that exist in China today, and nearly as much as the total electricity generation capacity of the United States.
There is no question that all of us will need to do more to push toward the de-carbonization of the global economy. But in climate diplomacy, as in life, you have to start at the beginning, and this breakthrough marks a fresh beginning: Two countries regarded for 20 years as the leaders of opposing camps in climate negotiations have come together to find common ground, determined to make lasting progress on an unprecedented global challenge. Lets ensure that this is the first step towards a world that is more prosperous and more secure.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)The Chinese side is to continue to ramp up their pollution for another decade and a half and then peak and recede from there. A "solution" based on exacerbation and then in the better part of a generation to supposedly start to slow down.
Sounds like PR not problem solving to me.
Independent_Liberal
(4,108 posts)Somebody pinch me.
Cha
(297,154 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Hopefully the idiots who are about to assume control of the Senate don't manage to screw this up.
lpbk2713
(42,753 posts)I'm sure they have a long list of items that are bothersome to the corps
and the one percenters that they want to turn around in their favor.
Cha
(297,154 posts)order them to do.. but, the President has his EO pen and I'm sure he's ready to use it.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)somehow.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Ex Lurker
(3,813 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)former9thward
(31,986 posts)And your OP is about promises well into the future.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There will be a lot of things.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)I'd like the Koch's to suck the air
That they pollute so shamelessly
A deep breath here and some cancer there
May they pay for all eternity
They are the real thing
Kochsuckers!
Kudos President Obama!
Cha
(297,154 posts)"There is no question that all of us will need to do more to push toward the de-carbonization of the global economy. But in climate diplomacy, as in life, you have to start at the beginning, and this breakthrough marks a fresh beginning: Two countries regarded for 20 years as the leaders of opposing camps in climate negotiations have come together to find common ground, determined to make lasting progress on an unprecedented global challenge. Lets ensure that this is the first step towards a world that is more prosperous and more secure."
Folks are thinking the Senate will mess this up but I'm thinking.. Executive Order and Oooops.. won't that make the Kocksters blow a few fuses.. they'll have ol ted scruz come out and says it's like "Obamacare for the Planet".
to President Obama and President Xi Jinping, she!
cilla4progress
(24,726 posts)Pres Obama is a community organizer at heart. He is simply working around Congress and working for the people. With this, and the benefits - such as they are - of Obamacare - he knows he's got folks behind him. Congress is going to reveal themselves for the pigs they are, if they fight these things the majorities want so much.
I think he should also go for gun control, taxing the rich, jobs bills, and all those other initiatives that have well over 50% of Americans behind them. Just come out with it; be transparent; name it for what it is, and let the Republican Congress reveal themselves - and fight all of us.
This is the silver lining: no more political IOUs from Pres Obama to any Congressional Dems. They turned their backs on him in the mid-terms, and look what it got them. I think this is an opportunity for him to be the guy we elected. Mr. Hope and Change.
Fingers crossed.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Fingers Crossed too.. and toes!
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)Real response:
Cha
(297,154 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)the beautiful blue.
There's one smart man over there in China now, protecting the future for all.
Maybe he is like Nixon after all
Cha
(297,154 posts)Yeah, maybe PBO likes a clean environment too.. and historic pact on the Climate in China, yet!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)the Obama legacy.
Cha
(297,154 posts)ever gonna do it!
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Reality!
KMOD
Cha
(297,154 posts)TheObamaDiary.com @TheObamaDiary
Follow
While US media focuses on President Obama chewing gum, he has reached historic agreement with China on Climate Change
6:22 PM - 11 Nov 2014 188 Retweets 115 favorites
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/history-made-thanks-president-obama/
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)Got China to go 100% Solar, to have a $30 (U.S. equivalent) minimum wage, and got free education for all China AND US kids as retribution for their poor child labor practices.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Or take back Kissinger, Cheney or Rumsfeld or the Drug Wars. The poisoner of the well for over 40 years.
Cha
(297,154 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)I decided to answer you in this thread instead of kicking the disingenuous one.
Aloha.. we had a lot of Dems come out for our Election!
I like your style!
Cha
(297,154 posts)drm604
(16,230 posts)but this will never get past the new Congress. I wish I could believe otherwise.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)have control of a lot of states.
karynnj
(59,502 posts)Some of the US gains would come from EPA rules. Another possibility (one that I remember Kerry speaking of back when he was a Senator and the Republicans controlled the entire federal government) is that a large amount of removal of carbon could be done at the state level. Back then the Northeastern states and the North Atlantic states had their own carbon reduction effort.
States like Massachusetts have moved to increase the % of energy that comes from renewable sources. I have seen a huge increase in solar panels even in the two years I have lived in VT.
In addition, there will be continuing reductions resulting in the big increase in fuel efficiency for cars that passed in 2009. This is something that has continuing results as cars age and are replaced. (At this point, I think that even a significant percent of used cars sold will be post 2009. )
Cha
(297,154 posts)on Climate Change.. Perhaps more are forth coming?
Executive Order -- Preparing the United States for the Impacts of Climate Change
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/11/01/executive-order-preparing-united-states-impacts-climate-change
Executive Order -- Climate-Resilient International Development
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/23/executive-order-climate-resilient-international-development
Blue DuPage @BlueDuPage
Follow
Renewable Energy Creates More Jobs Than Fossil Fuels http://ecowatch.com/2014/11/11/renewable-energy-jobs/
#4jobs #pjnet #ccot #p2
4:20 AM - 11 Nov 2014
Kerry is really helpful on this too. I loved his OP in the NYT on the Importance of the Pact in China!
In One Fell Swoop Obama Announces Solar Jobs For 50,000 Veterans and Takes On Climate Change
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/10/24/fell-swoop-obama-announces-solar-jobs-50000-veterans-addresses-climate-change.html
Cha
(297,154 posts)http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/11/01/executive-order-preparing-united-states-impacts-climate-change
Executive Order -- Climate-Resilient International Development
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/23/executive-order-climate-resilient-international-development
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)will come into play.
Liberal Lolita
(82 posts)My fear is it is too little too late, but it is progress.
Cha
(297,154 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)and House. The Rs do not want any interference with their corporations.
Cha
(297,154 posts)"It may not have to
Some of the US gains would come from EPA rules. Another possibility (one that I remember Kerry speaking of back when he was a Senator and the Republicans controlled the entire federal government) is that a large amount of removal of carbon could be done at the state level. Back then the Northeastern states and the North Atlantic states had their own carbon reduction effort.
States like Massachusetts have moved to increase the % of energy that comes from renewable sources. I have seen a huge increase in solar panels even in the two years I have lived in VT.
In addition, there will be continuing reductions resulting in the big increase in fuel efficiency for cars that passed in 2009. This is something that has continuing results as cars age and are replaced. (At this point, I think that even a significant percent of used cars sold will be post 2009. )"
karynVT http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5804749
Executive Order -- Preparing the United States for the Impacts of Climate Change
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/11/01/executive-order-preparing-united-states-impacts-climate-change
Executive Order -- Climate-Resilient International Development
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/23/executive-order-climate-resilient-international-development
Blue DuPage @BlueDuPage
Follow
Renewable Energy Creates More Jobs Than Fossil Fuels http://ecowatch.com/2014/11/11/renewable-energy-jobs/
#4jobs #pjnet #ccot #p2
4:20 AM - 11 Nov 2014
Kerry is really helpful on this too. I loved his OP in the NYT on the Importance of the Pact in China!
In One Fell Swoop Obama Announces Solar Jobs For 50,000 Veterans and Takes On Climate Change
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/10/24/fell-swoop-obama-announces-solar-jobs-50000-veterans-addresses-climate-change.html
jwirr
(39,215 posts)and here in MN I heard they are going to test that new ceramic road tiles that produce energy. I hope they do one up in the NE MN.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's just a pledge, nothing more. No treaty was signed.
I'll believe it when China signs a treaty. They may be expecting Republicans to balk, meaning they have an excuse to back out themselves. China is notorious for being vague and never boxing themselves in, and I believe this is another instance where they've done exactly that.
Sad, but true.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)If the planet goes down the drain, they sink too...
I say promise them both Environment Nobel Prizes for the encouragement, and real ones for future accomplishments! Maybe that will work. I'm almost 62, so it won't affect me one way or another, but I feel for most of the Milennials won't go away before I'm gone to
KMOD
(7,906 posts)no need to be
[img][/img]
Cha
(297,154 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Others are just haters who despise Obama so much that their first and immediate reaction is vitriol.
There's no helping that sort.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Shared!
PBO, thank you!
Cha
(297,154 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Not lame duck, that's corporate media and the anti-American monster Koch's congress who will eff themselves up and further damage this country but we will survive.
Cha
(297,154 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It isn't enough, but . . . it is a big improvement.
Cha
(297,154 posts)"There is no question that all of us will need to do more to push toward the de-carbonization of the global economy. But in climate diplomacy, as in life, you have to start at the beginning, and this breakthrough marks a fresh beginning: Two countries regarded for 20 years as the leaders of opposing camps in climate negotiations have come together to find common ground, determined to make lasting progress on an unprecedented global challenge. Lets ensure that this is the first step towards a world that is more prosperous and more secure."
Hekate
(90,648 posts)They're doing the Cha-Cha-Cha, in case you didn't know. Thanks Cha for bringing us this news.
Cha
(297,154 posts)It is great news!
cilla4progress
(24,726 posts)LOOK AT THAT BEAUTIFUL SMILE, WILL YA? HELLA GORGEOUS PHOTO OF OUR PRES!!!!!
Cha
(297,154 posts)know.. all those who are spending Billion$$$$$$$$ to Deny it's even happening!
So this is kinda Huge.. China, one of the biggest polluters Agrees!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)given that I lived there a year (and from the perspective of Korea where I've lived since 2004). The pictures you see online of Beijing and other places don't begin to describe how bad the overall pollution problem is there. It's not just air pollution, but water and soil pollution as well.
They get sandstorms from the Gobi Desert, sand that is picked up and blown east. The sand crosses over cities where pollution is occurring and it is carried by the sand over the eastern side of China and then over Korea and Japan (the sand has been found as far as the west coast of the US).
Here in Korea the sand storms are called Hwangsa (yellow dust) and occur primarily in the Spring and Fall. During these storms the dust, if inhaled, can make one very sick with flu and cold like symptoms (trust me it's happened a few times).
The Chinese people are getting sick of the pollution, rightfully so, and having the economy put before their health.
I know there are a few DUers that still live in China and maybe if they are around they could elaborate from their perspective as well.
Cha
(297,154 posts)"There is no question that all of us will need to do more to push toward the de-carbonization of the global economy. But in climate diplomacy, as in life, you have to start at the beginning, and this breakthrough marks a fresh beginning: Two countries regarded for 20 years as the leaders of opposing camps in climate negotiations have come together to find common ground, determined to make lasting progress on an unprecedented global challenge. Lets ensure that this is the first step towards a world that is more prosperous and more secure."
Andrew Restuccia ✔ @AndrewRestuccia
Follow
Republicans have long argued that U.S. shouldn't act on climate until China does. China is acting: http://politi.co/1u9ebmE
5:46 PM - 11 Nov 2014 48 Retweets 19 favorites
Liberal Librarian @Lib_Librarian
Follow
Media: How does it feel to be a lame duck?
PBO: Just reached a climate deal with China.
Media: ...
PBO: ...
7:00 PM - 11 Nov 2014
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/history-made-thanks-president-obama/
Those sandstorms off the Gobi Desert sound just awful.. and mixed in with the other pollution!.. so glad Chinese President Xi Jinping and President got together on this!
world wide wally
(21,740 posts)any bets?
Cha
(297,154 posts)the thread.
Andrew Restuccia ✔ @AndrewRestuccia
Follow
Republicans have long argued that U.S. shouldn't act on climate until China does. China is acting: http://politi.co/1u9ebmE
5:46 PM - 11 Nov 2014 48 Retweets 19 favorites
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)"Obummer is making secret deals with Communists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Cha
(297,154 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)TheObamaDiary.com @TheObamaDiary
Follow
While US media focuses on President Obama chewing gum, he has reached historic agreement with China on Climate Change
6:22 PM - 11 Nov 2014 188 Retweets 115 favorites
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/history-made-thanks-president-obama/
Cha
(297,154 posts)meta @metaquest
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President Obama is PRESSING ON. @TheDemocrats
6:34 AM - 12 Nov 2014 69 Retweets 57 favorites
meta @metaquest
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It turns out to be easier & more productive for Pres Obama to deal w/China than @GOP, who refuse to compromise and serve our best interests
6:20 AM - 12 Nov 2014
38 Retweets 13 favorites meta @metaquest
Follow
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/a-tweet-or-two-167/
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)great tweets from TOD!
Love the graphic~
malaise
(268,949 posts)K & R
Cha
(297,154 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Oh yeah, it'll be signed sometime next year. Maybe. You never know what the final wording will say. Then you have to wait 10-15 years to see if their targets are met, which if they're not, nobody will remember it anyway.
According to the plan, the United States will reduce carbon emissions 26-28 percent below 2005 levels by 2025, nearly twice the existing targetwithout imposing new restrictions on power plants or vehicles.
Right. No limits, but we'll limit, or even decrease, our impact. Yeah, no, right, that makes sense.
includes headline-grabbing undertakings
They're good with those things. These guys are professionals.
Cha
(297,154 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)At least a few thousand years of it.
Cha
(297,154 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Everything has a downside to the equation.
It's great that they're talking and throwing numbers around, but we've seen it before.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Follow
What happens when a 3hr meeting becomes a 5hr one? --> Historic #ClimateChange deal with China
Bravo, Pres. Obama!
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/history-made-thanks-president-obama/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Follow
Media: How does it feel to be a lame duck?
PBO: Just reached a climate deal with China.
Media: ...
PBO: ...
7:00 PM - 11 Nov 2014
http://theobamadiary.com/2014/11/12/history-made-thanks-president-obama/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)TBF
(32,051 posts)I hope Obama as a lawyer has researched how he can pass executive orders to accomplish all of this. Maybe having China as the partner will make the difference. I know Congress will not help him willingly but he is trying to do the right thing here. I support this 100%.
Cha
(297,154 posts)and China, TBF. That both countries are able to hold up their end of the Deal.
Executive Order -- Preparing the United States for the Impacts of Climate Change
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/11/01/executive-order-preparing-united-states-impacts-climate-change
Executive Order -- Climate-Resilient International Development
Some previous news on Executive Ordesr and Climate Change..
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/23/executive-order-climate-resilient-international-development
Blue DuPage @BlueDuPage
Follow
Renewable Energy Creates More Jobs Than Fossil Fuels http://ecowatch.com/2014/11/11/renewable-energy-jobs/
#4jobs #pjnet #ccot #p2
4:20 AM - 11 Nov 2014
Kerry is really helpful on this too. I loved his OP in the NYT on the Importance of the Pact in China!
In One Fell Swoop Obama Announces Solar Jobs For 50,000 Veterans and Takes On Climate Change
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/10/24/fell-swoop-obama-announces-solar-jobs-50000-veterans-addresses-climate-change.html
TBF
(32,051 posts)that 90 companies are responsible for most of the global warming - starting with the top oil companies of course.
The oil & gas lobbyists will be all over this, but bringing China on board is brilliant. We owe them a lot of $$$ and not even Congress can get around that. That puts China in a position in power in this situation. Thank goodness.
Takket
(21,563 posts)How exactly is this treaty going to get through congress? I could see it passing in 2017 when the new blue congress is sworn in, but not in 2015 with a denier running the senate environmental committee (inhoff).
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)pediatricmedic
(397 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Obama hates the environment.
Javaman
(62,521 posts)I will hold off popping the champaign until I see some results that have real world impact.
I have lived a lot of years and I have witnessed many a "game changing" moment with no change in said game.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)As an agreement in principle between the US and China that carbon emissions are dangerous, however, this is HUGE.
Far more than a dime's worth of difference.
Cha
(297,154 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Sad when just sheer recognition at this point seems like a breakthrough but it must begin somewhere.
It is the greatest evil this world has faced and faced it must be. When we start looking at gross emitters the same way we viewed that girl painting rocks in parks. They are both defacing and destroying our wilderness and our world. One just does it in a more insidious, long term & permanent way while pocketing the proceeds of destruction to be shared between friends invested in the cause.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)a) economic contraction
b) negative population growth
c) both
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We'll reduce our carbon pollution 27% below 2005 levels by 2025. In exchange, China "expects" to stop annually increasing its CO2 pollution five years later?
Yay, I guess.
The US is in environmental negotiations. China is in economic and trade policy negotiations.
mahina
(17,646 posts)Very positive. Aloha.
Cha
(297,154 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)This could do a lot to make their economy more on par and not so cheap as to undermine ours!
mcar
(42,302 posts)Thank you President Obama and Secretary Kerry.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Unless these guys shared some technological breakthrough that the rest of us are unaware of in energy production, storage or transmission, this is about 40 years too late.
That, and the Rs will scuttle it. We can't do anything with the environment when we have a black President.
Javaman
(62,521 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Sorry Cha.
Cha
(297,154 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)for about 15 more years if the US agrees to a significant reduction (26-28% over 2005 levels) in the next 10 years.
It literally doesn't change the game for China for another 15 years and isn't binding in the US either. It sounds like more "photo-op" diplomacy.
Crabby Appleton
(5,231 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)A 27% reduction "without imposing new restrictions on power plants or vehicles" requires either economic contraction or exodus.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)any treaties. Oh well, the thought was good.
James Inhofe will head up the relevant Senate Committee after January. Now there's a comforting thought.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)How will he implement these promises? How is this different than promising to close Guantanamo?
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)Is it your preference that he just spend the next two years playing badminton because the Refucklicans won't help?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and that's too much.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)and he's blamed when he does because your clairvoyance tells you it's a conspiracy to do the exact opposite.
Here's a radical idea: Reward political leaders who advocate issues you support, instead of turning a good thing into a bad thing out of paranoia about their motives.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)liberal causes. In the last 6 years he's done far too little. I simply point out that just because he speaks out, doesn't mean there will be any results. Now it's time for him to speak out against the Keystone pipeling and Frickin-Fracking. They are related to climate change.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)Dismissing it as mere rhetoric and questioning his motives instead of applauding his position?
Cha
(297,154 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)already openly embraced it. I think he said it was the bridge to a new energy and the oil companies cheered.
But you do have a point. I would be very skeptical. I would most likely consider it rhetoric. In 2007, had he said he opposed fracking, I would have believed it. Today, I would be very skeptical.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)But if you insist on judging it against your ideals rather than against the political situation in America, then you're never going to find an administration praise-worthy. Every human being will fall short and you'll always have an unconstructively negative view of everyone who is on your side and in a position to do anything about it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)rhetoric, pretending that everything is peachy, I see on a daily basis the struggles that have been getting worse every year for decades. I see people still losing their homes to the banksters that run the country. I see an infant mortality rate that is unbelievable and I see children dying from poverty and lack of decent health care.
And what environmental damage will be allowed via the secret Free Trade Agreements? Tell me I don't have good reason to be skeptical.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)You don't have to be satisfied with that in the sense of not trying to do more, but sincerity demands being satisfied that this is an environmentally active and responsible administration. And you don't seem to be aware of that.
You seem to think the measure of an administration is how far it deviates from what you imagine to be a perfect situation rather than whether it improved the one it inherited. That's not rational. That's judging people's morality by measuring them in units of Gandhis and then calling them immoral because the number is invariably less than 1.
He's the President of the United States, not of the Sierra Club, so sometimes other factors weigh into decisions - other factors like the existence of two other branches of government he has no say over. But he moved the nation as a whole significantly forward on environmental issues. So calling his motives into question and belittling his environmental agenda is just outrageous.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)I, too, expect it to go the way of Kyoto once the oil, gas and coal lobbies exert their influence. 2025 is a long way away.
Guantanomo was more like campaign posturing. If I wanted to be cynical, I guess this could be legacy posturing. In the end, it may just be a feel-good headline, but Obama deserves some credit here.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Especially now he has no chance of getting anything passed that the Republicans don't want. Some people get so excited if he merely says what they want to here. I will cheer when I see results.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)I feel we've had plenty of words without results, and I'm not grabbing the pom poms over this. Results, at least ones you and I might agree with, will be few and far between in the next two years. This agreement, though tenuous, is better than no agreement to try to help the environment.
At the least, this puts the onus on Republicans and right-leaning dems to come out against it - a positive in the next campaign should they choose to use it as such.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)a moratorium on Fracking and a definite stop on the Keystone pipeline.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)I'll be the guy turning blue in the corner.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 12, 2014, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Number23
(24,544 posts)By academics, scientists and activists alike.
http://theconversation.com/us-china-climate-deal-at-last-a-real-game-changer-on-emissions-34148
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/barack-obama-praises-historic-climate-deal-as-labor-steps-up-attack-on-coalition-20141112-11l6e1.html
The fact that the usual crew here still cling to their "I'm ever so disappointed and/or concerned" meme is as predictable as it is irrelevant and boring as all hell.
Cha
(297,154 posts)Mahalo for the links, 23.. and the view from Australia!
btw, I cleaned up my "predictable".
Number23
(24,544 posts)'UN praises China, US for highly significant announcement on emissions cuts'
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49317#.VGRI58nTh4A
Cha
(297,154 posts)to the growing praise from around the world, 23! Thank you!
from your link..
"12 November 2014 The new measures announced by the Governments of China and the United States in addressing their greenhouse gas emissions over the coming decades is a positive step towards achieving a more comprehensive accord at a global climate conference to be held in Paris next year, top United Nations officials have confirmed.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon commended the significant and timely announcement pronounced by US President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the tail-end of a high-level meeting in Beijing and thanked the two leaders for their personal commitment to work together to remove any impediments to reaching an agreement in Paris.
China and the United States have demonstrated the leadership that the world expects of them, said Mr. Ban, in a statement attributable to his spokesperson.
This leadership demonstrated by the Governments of the worlds two largest economies will give the international community an unprecedented chance to succeed at reaching a meaningful, universal agreement in 2015.
I like SG Ban Ki-moon's attitude.. refreshing after hearing from the "left" and the rwnutters.. especially ted scruz.. LOL
Something everyone who cares about the Planet should be doing.. Thanking US President Barack Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping!
Dopers_Greed
(2,640 posts)In 5... 4... 3...
Cha
(297,154 posts)americannightmare
(322 posts)for it to have any significant impact on already runaway climate change. That means everyone has to cut down significantly on their individual driving AND red meat intake, among other things. At the climate march there was a lot of fingerpointing at industry, and while they have to do their part, if we don't fundamentally change our lifestyles nothing government does will matter much. You could liken it to expecting the 1% to spend the 99% out of the Great Recession - mathematically impossible. China says they are going to peak at 2030? Way too late for our species!
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)It seems like everybody wants somebody else to do something and doesnt want to do anything themselves.
Most people on this forum could cut their energy use 28% on a few months, and if everybody made the change we could come close to hitting the goal very quickly.
I made a thread about energy savings and asking people how much energy they use and it sunk like a rock. For the record I used 156kwh and 20ccf of gas last month. Even in the middle of summer I dont go over 200 kwh per month.
Cha
(297,154 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)TPP won't increase our emissions, and our counterparties are countries like Brunei and Malaysia that aren't significant emitters in the scheme of things. Keystone is emissions neutral (or slightly positive since the trains they currently use are non-zero-emission).
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I love good news and you always come through.
Aloha, mahalo and have a wonderful rest of your day my friend!
kentuck
(111,079 posts)This could prove to be the greatest accomplishment of the Obama presidency.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)New research today won't translate to much installed savings in only 10 years. Our large scale facilities take that long to go from drawing board to operation. Half the vehicle fleet in 2025 will be built in the next 4 years. Will 2019 model year average 42mpg?
Aggressive goals are fine but meeting this one is ??
Cha
(297,154 posts)mylye2222
(2,992 posts)Obama and Kerry did an amazing job. And Kudos to the others parts of the agreement as well. !!!
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Timing isnt everything but it sure helps. After the mid-term elections, the mood in climate circles was getting pretty grim. We faced the prospect of a Republican-dominated House and Senate overturning emission controls, ramming through Keystone XL and elevating a climate denier (James Inhofe) to chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Already there was talk that upcoming UN climate negotiations were dead on arrival.
In this context, the US-China climate deal is a badly needed piece of good news. It signals that Barack Obama is willing to expend political capital fighting for his climate legacy.
It Makes It Harder For Republicans to Break Obamas Promises
The deal is also tactically smart: by tying the emission reduction targets of both countries together in a bilateral deal, the President is making sure that his successor will have to weigh any desire to break these commitments against the risks of alienating America most important trading partner. Thats smart.
It Robs Climate Obstructionists of Their Best Argument
Most significantly, commitments made by China under the deal take away what has historically been the most effective argument in defense of climate negligence in the US: Why should we stop polluting if China wont? For the first time, China is committing to capping its emissions and acknowledging that there must be a limit to its coal-powered growth juggernaut.
Much more here: http://thischangeseverything.org/some-very-initial-thoughts-on-the-us-china-deal/
Cha
(297,154 posts)President wouldn't be doing this just for show. He wants to get this done and is working on it..which is exponentially more than those sitting around their computers complaining about it.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)
CNN's headline is about a couple of people dangling from the World Trade Center. Looking at the news here at DU, people are engaged in petty arguments over who 'looks better' over the stupid internet.
Progressives have for years been fighting (or more accurately in many cases, paying lip service to fighting) for carbon reduction agreements between the USA and China. With the stroke of a pen and probably a lot of work from President Obama and his team of advisors and diplomats, the USA and China have reached a major accord with wide ranging implications.
This should be the lead story on every news source and should be one of the most talked-about topics here at Democratic Underground! This is major news that could effect the future of our planet and its animals. What do we get? A few comments. A few recommendations. Not much more. Yeeeeeeesh. That's ridiculous.
Why are so many addicted to shitty news? I do not know.
We must break that addiction. Individually.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I spent July 2013 in China and had only one English language TV channel. President Xi was giving speech after speech about the need to address climate change by starting serious work on long-term solutions. Sure, it was Chinese TV, but why would he hammer away on this so relentlessly unless it was actually a priority.
This is a good thing in every possible way and President Obama deserves credit, as does President Xi.
Cha
(297,154 posts)good unless China's on board..
Why The GOP Is So Flustered By US-Sino Climate Change Deal
"One reason the GOP is making so much noise about the surprise climate change deal with China is that the lack of action by China has long been a central line of attack on any US efforts to take action on carbon emissions. So long as China wasn't moving, what difference would it make if the US moved, other than to further disadvantage US business? At least that's how the GOP argument went."
Climate Desk has a great reel up showing just how prevalent this line of attack was from Republicans
MOre
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/us-china-climate-change-deal
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Good start.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)drynberg
(1,648 posts)The air in the huge Chinese capitol was too filthy to breathe, even with a short term massive downturn of atmospheric pollution...We don't have more than six years to wait for conditions to continue getting worse...So, how's this a "gamechanger"?
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Yay!
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)That was the business where Assange published a boatload of CRU emails he supposedly came by anonymously. Yeah right.
Anyway this is great news, thanks Cha!
Cha
(297,154 posts)And, yes.. it's super good News!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I am!
I'm letting this amazing accord sink in Cha.
I think it's in the top two of the Obama Administration's historic accomplishments. Right up there with the Affordable Care Act. Of course there are many many more. These two alone though rank Obama's Presidency with the greatest since FDR, in my opinion.
Of course the corporate media and full-time negativists won't see it that way. Screw them both. This is major good news for the entire world!
Have a great rest of the evening Cha!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Even the cynics are taking this one seriously.. well some!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)3,2,1...right about now.
Meanwhile we've got one of human beings' greatest accomplishments of our generation staring us in the face. It makes me very happy.
Have a good night flamingdem!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)and really didn't expect China to step up.
Hope springs eternal lovemydog and we still have some!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)as I believe Emily Dickenson and Big Bird in your avatar will attest.
Way too often in the past few years I've felt like that hilarious title of one Woody Allen's books: Without Feathers.
This evening I am with feathers! Hooray!
Sleep well my fellow democrat.