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ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:54 PM Nov 2014

Billionaire says: "Why not become a plumber instead of going to college?"

- Micheal Bloomberg

And there you have it, folks. That's their endgame and the idea is being given "what a great idea!" support on CNN right this second. "Hey, maybe it's not such a bad idea!" says the CNN talking head.

DISCLAIMER: I am a 25-year semi-retired union construction trade veteran who has worked alongside plumbers all my life. They are the salt of the earth and we all make good money. That's not what I meant. But I think some of you know that. What I'm saying is that I don't think a billionaire has any place suggesting us proles don't go to college and instead pursue service careers so we can build and fix their stuff for a crust of bread.

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Billionaire says: "Why not become a plumber instead of going to college?" (Original Post) ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 OP
plumbers make more than a lot of college grads tk2kewl Nov 2014 #1
yep. Everyone wants to be a lawyer or stock broker - LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #3
Not sneered at as much anymore as English lit majors and PhD candidates. Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #78
I have much greater respect for plumbers, electricians, etc., LawDeeDah Nov 2014 #79
Not boob docs Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #83
FYI: Cosby is also a total sleaze bag, a serial sexual harasser of the worst sort. Blech. bettyellen Nov 2014 #123
they are afraid of getting dirty krawhitham Nov 2014 #118
No one gets looked down upon more than liberal arts majors Blue_Tires Nov 2014 #140
So you're changing careers then? tenderfoot Nov 2014 #12
if i could go back and be a plumber from the beginning, i might tk2kewl Nov 2014 #14
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber deutsey Nov 2014 #17
THIS RIGHT HERE ^^^^, said better than I did in my OP. nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 #21
Yep. Same attitude underwrites his 2A philosophy. Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #60
Your statement about class stratification hits the nail on the head. Thanks. greatlaurel Nov 2014 #73
All well and good, but a livable-wage "good" job is still mandatory. Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #80
So sorry you do not find other people interesting. greatlaurel Nov 2014 #104
Thanks...+1 deutsey Nov 2014 #94
Glad your kids are doing well. Do check out the ideas on academic scholarships. greatlaurel Nov 2014 #103
I don't mind if it's nursing school or an EE degree Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #84
Yeah, when I went to college deutsey Nov 2014 #92
Oh I get it now, if a subject is not something you think will make money then it is not worth it. greatlaurel Nov 2014 #105
An Independent plumber maybe Catherine Vincent Nov 2014 #81
that depends on if it's union tk2kewl Nov 2014 #113
There is a rather classist attitude that the trades are "below" white-collar jobs. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #97
It's actually a great idea. Union plumbers in NYC =$60/hr. JaneyVee Nov 2014 #2
Until the same billionaires kill the unions, at least. Orsino Nov 2014 #18
However, your job can be done by 'guest' workers or cheap imported Nay Nov 2014 #46
ibew unionthug777 Nov 2014 #69
ibew 596 spyker29 Nov 2014 #76
Plus at the end of the day you don't usually take work or stress home! Red State Rebel Nov 2014 #121
Do you know this from experience? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #128
We've got an oversupply Proud Public Servant Nov 2014 #4
It's because people were told that college was THE way to the Middle Class. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #98
What's wrong with being a plumber? sharp_stick Nov 2014 #5
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, and you have missed my point. I worked next ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 #7
Ideas about what? Transcendental poets and the philosophy of Star Trek? Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #86
Most plumbers I see are private business people. upaloopa Nov 2014 #8
My nephew- in-law is a UNION plumber HockeyMom Nov 2014 #29
Nothing wrong with being a plumber. Nye Bevan Nov 2014 #6
Didn't say there was. That wasn't the point of my pointing out what a 1%er's idea of what we proles ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 #11
Mario and Luigi need their pound of flesh. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #99
Better a plumber than a barista with six-figure college debt. n/t lumberjack_jeff Nov 2014 #9
"Well, the world needs ditch diggers too." FSogol Nov 2014 #10
Fed my kids' digging thousands of feet of ditches, thank you. nt ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 #24
"If you don't get good grades, you'll end up digging ditches" MindPilot Nov 2014 #28
I've been saying that for years... TreasonousBastard Nov 2014 #13
Welcome to -- FALSE DICHOTOMY! immoderate Nov 2014 #15
If everyone decided to become Plumbers then dilby Nov 2014 #16
True - there's the lack of ability to outsource treestar Nov 2014 #47
Plumbers can't be outsourced. hifiguy Nov 2014 #19
They can, however BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #42
Why not, indeed. Plumbers make bank. nt Dreamer Tatum Nov 2014 #20
Duetsey said it upthread better than I did in my OP: ChisolmTrailDem Nov 2014 #22
Not everyone needs college Dreamer Tatum Nov 2014 #61
And Bloomberg's Attitude. . . ProfessorGAC Nov 2014 #130
If everyone went into those skilled labor positions BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #23
Doncha just love it when the monied elite hand down advice to their lessers? MindPilot Nov 2014 #25
This ^^^ geardaddy Nov 2014 #55
What's wrong with being a plumber AND going to college? Depaysement Nov 2014 #26
Ummm..... a six figure student loan debt, perhaps? (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2014 #27
Me? My degree is in Medieval Art History... MindPilot Nov 2014 #33
Thank you for making me feel exceptional! Depaysement Nov 2014 #48
People don't want to be in debt up to their eyeballs? Odin2005 Nov 2014 #100
That's the problem. RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #126
My exact first thought/ RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #125
Man this is actually bothering me now BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #30
as the son of a plumber DonCoquixote Nov 2014 #31
yeah that is an element BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #37
Nobody's going to sneak into power getting bullshit degrees. Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #88
Ah the resentment just seeps through whatthehey Nov 2014 #119
Bloomberg is a billionaire BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #136
I disagree. I think he's right. chrisa Nov 2014 #32
i see nothing wrong with it, plumbers could also more easily start their own business JI7 Nov 2014 #34
Welcome to Scrooge's America! cascadiance Nov 2014 #35
It was just a suggestion for kids to consider.......and a very good one, at that. WillowTree Nov 2014 #36
Good? For who? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #38
I don't begin to know what you're talking about. WillowTree Nov 2014 #41
Hm, alright BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #45
What a bunch of bullshit joeglow3 Nov 2014 #132
Yeah and it would be true BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #134
President Obama has advocated EXACTLY this same thing joeglow3 Nov 2014 #138
What are you talking about? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #139
You claimed the mayor's comment was a negative comment joeglow3 Nov 2014 #141
Ok BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #142
What do you think illegal immigrants do to these fields? joeglow3 Nov 2014 #143
yeah? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #144
I still think it is good advice joeglow3 Nov 2014 #145
I think I'd rather hear how we could alleviate student debt and protect us from outsourcing... cascadiance Nov 2014 #43
Oh. So you think that those working in the trades are living a "LOWER END reality"? WillowTree Nov 2014 #51
Like others have said here, I am not saying this, but I think Bloomberg is saying this! cascadiance Nov 2014 #91
Bam! geardaddy Nov 2014 #57
Why not become a revolutionary instead of some billionaire's lackey? - nt KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #39
At the same time, they want to raise retirement age to 70 or more. alarimer Nov 2014 #40
Lots of billionaires didn't go to college Boom Sound 416 Nov 2014 #44
Is that the measure of a man? WinkyDink Nov 2014 #53
It's a measure of success. Boom Sound 416 Nov 2014 #54
The 1% sees danger in much education and freedom of thought and freedom of expression. blkmusclmachine Nov 2014 #49
very true; I was a college-educated auto mechanic -- a real misfit MindPilot Nov 2014 #58
What a bunch of shit. Dreamer Tatum Nov 2014 #62
Thank goodness people don't listen to politicians Kalidurga Nov 2014 #50
Funny how the wealthy send their scions not to trade schools but to the Ivys; not to the job market WinkyDink Nov 2014 #52
Will there still be UglyGreed Nov 2014 #56
Judge Smails: "The world needs ditch diggers too." badtoworse Nov 2014 #59
Once the Republicans start removing those pesky regulations procon Nov 2014 #63
One thing about plumbers... their jobs can never be outsourced to India or China (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2014 #64
During Bush some rich asshole suggested people go to butler school.... Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2014 #65
The uber wealthy ought to be taxed out of existence. hunter Nov 2014 #66
I guess it all depends on what you want in life. Vinca Nov 2014 #67
I have an MEd in Adult Community Education, among others) and 20 years as a repair plumber. jtuck004 Nov 2014 #68
Hope that Micheal doesn't develop a need for a plumber... Thor_MN Nov 2014 #70
with the degree inflation caused by treating college as a revenue stream plumbers will soon MisterP Nov 2014 #71
Not a bad idea really. I made a lot of money with my degree and the ballyhoo Nov 2014 #72
He might as well have said "Let them eat cake". Initech Nov 2014 #74
Better than saying let them make burgers. Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #85
For some people it is the best option One_Life_To_Give Nov 2014 #75
A professional office? What about all the Renaissance Art majors Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #82
There's no reason an art history major can't then learn to be a plumber Recursion Nov 2014 #90
if they have to worry about paying off college loans JI7 Nov 2014 #101
Trade school isn't for everybody Art_from_Ark Nov 2014 #117
Well, it's up to the person Recursion Nov 2014 #129
you seem really hung up on this BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #108
I'd love to plumb their homes with some lead pipes. nt Ilsa Nov 2014 #77
I'm all for it! obxhead Nov 2014 #87
Except that isn't Bloomberg or his ilk's game BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #135
You'll probably make better money (nt) Recursion Nov 2014 #89
Why not do both? surrealAmerican Nov 2014 #93
How about Bloomberg become worm food. JEB Nov 2014 #95
There is a shortage of skilled tradespeople in this country... Odin2005 Nov 2014 #96
There's two things to say here Prophet 451 Nov 2014 #102
My BIL didn't go to college and became a plumber abelenkpe Nov 2014 #106
There is also that Libertarian davidpdx Nov 2014 #107
Me and plumbing don't get along. Not everyone can be a plumber, the same B Calm Nov 2014 #109
I know a plumber that drives a Rolls Royce AngryAmish Nov 2014 #110
Try an electrician. Mine just charged me $40.00 per quarter hour for work in my home. mfcorey1 Nov 2014 #111
Well, why not? Spider Jerusalem Nov 2014 #112
Hey Mr. Bloomberg! I graduated college and... meaculpa2011 Nov 2014 #114
While I share LWolf Nov 2014 #115
Plumber, electrician, HVAC/R, carpenter, welding, mechanic... Kaleva Nov 2014 #116
I agree with Bloomberg WestCoastLib Nov 2014 #120
I Happen RobinA Nov 2014 #122
Why the fuck should our young people have to make that choice? RedCappedBandit Nov 2014 #124
Median plumber income is 49k BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #127
Median income for people with a bachelor's degree is 46K WestCoastLib Nov 2014 #131
Yeah BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #133
Billionaires need to just STFU . . . Brigid Nov 2014 #137
College is highly overrated and discriminatory Reter Nov 2014 #146
 

LawDeeDah

(1,596 posts)
3. yep. Everyone wants to be a lawyer or stock broker -
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:59 PM
Nov 2014

plumbers, electricians and tradespeople are essential but looked down upon. Crazy times.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
78. Not sneered at as much anymore as English lit majors and PhD candidates.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:37 PM
Nov 2014

Far as I'm concerned, the title of "doctor" should be reserved for a physician in a white lab coat. Not an intellectual blowhard in a tweed jacket with elbow patches. Never mind the Latin roots either. A D.Div (Doctor of Divinity) probably doesn't even believe in modern science, let alone know anything about medicine. Unless one counts exorcisms and round-the-clock novenas to be legitimate medical practice.

 

LawDeeDah

(1,596 posts)
79. I have much greater respect for plumbers, electricians, etc.,
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:39 PM
Nov 2014

than for hedge funders or some lawyers or scamming plastic surgeons.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
83. Not boob docs
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:50 PM
Nov 2014

Cardiologists, oncologists, pediatricians, gynecologists... REAL doctors. Not Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil. Heck, I have more respect for Dr. Kevorkian than even those two.

I still have no respect for the Piled High & Deep crowd, though. Bill Cosby may be a "doctor" of education but as far as I'm concerned, he's an even more fictional doctor now than when he was an actual fictional doctor playing Cliff Huxtable.

A PhD in "important"-sounding shit like Medieval Weaponry or Freudian Gender Studies is just a made-up phony sheepskin.

By the way, a Doctor of Education is an Ed.D. AKA a doctor of ED. I guess we can file Cosby under men's health specialist?



"I know, Doc. That's what she said."

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
140. No one gets looked down upon more than liberal arts majors
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 07:31 PM
Nov 2014

(just setting the record straight because I am one)

 

tk2kewl

(18,133 posts)
14. if i could go back and be a plumber from the beginning, i might
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:05 PM
Nov 2014

at this point i'm just running out the clock

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
17. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:07 PM
Nov 2014

I wish I had taken more time to develop practical, hands-on skills like plumbing over my life.

What I don't like about Bloomberg's attitude is it implies, for me, a justification for rigid class stratification that keeps college available only to the privileged.

I'm from the working class and was the first in my family to go to college. It was during the Reagan era, so it was a financial struggle. Today, unless my kids get big scholarships, I don't know how they'll be able to go, assuming that's what they'll even want to do.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
60. Yep. Same attitude underwrites his 2A philosophy.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:06 PM
Nov 2014

Rigid class structure means he and his ilk get to have guns, but not the rest of us.

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
73. Your statement about class stratification hits the nail on the head. Thanks.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:07 PM
Nov 2014

There are lots of people who can become plumbers and other skilled tradespeople and enjoy the work, but you still have to go to school and do an apprenticeship. Have a couple of friends' kids who went to trade schools. It was more expensive per year than my kids' college expenses.

Besides that, how many jobs are really out there for skilled tradespeople? Sure there is a demand for skilled trades, but those jobs cannot be enough for every working class kid. This is such a condescending attitude from another obscenely rich guy who is surrounded with people dedicated to telling him what a mental giant he is. He has no idea what he is talking about. Secondly, it is clear by his statement that he feels certain that all that money sending most of us to college is a big waste of money. If we were so smart, we would already be billionaires like him. In his tiny weird world, the only children worth educating are only the ones born into money, of course.

If your kids are in junior high or high school, there are ways to get scholarships at a lot of state and even private schools. Have they taken the ACT or SAT yet? At Ohio University, if they score a 32 ACT(do not remember the SAT score, it is on their website) they can get a Gateway scholarship that covers 100% of tuition. That is a tough score to reach, but most kids have a shot at getting a score close enough to get a partial Gateway. I am certain many other universities have similar programs. Living expenses are still expensive, but there are additional aid packages and scholarships. Of course, loans are available, but the goal is to minimize that option as much as possible. You should check with all your state schools on the financial aid available for your kids. Another thing to check out are branch campuses. Here in Ohio the state schools have branch campuses which are much less expensive than the main campuses and are within commuting distances, so kids can save money on living expenses, while they get their first or second year courses out of the way. Not as much fun as living on campus, but still a good way to get an education. The classes are usually taught by faculty who are really interested in teaching, too, another bonus for branch campuses. The OU branch near us gives kids full tuition scholarships if they score a 25 on the ACT.

One other thing is if you can swing it have the kids take both the ACT and SAT to see which they score better on. They are not limited to taking it just once, so they can work to better their scores, without stressing out so much. The best thing to do is have them take it early in high school or late middle school, so you know where they are. Both ACT and SAT have practice questions on their websites, so kids can review on their own. A lot of rich people send their kids to test prep classes, but we could not have afforded it even if it was available here(very rural area).

I hate it when people denigrate getting an education. A college education is about so much more than a job training program. Young people can gain so many skills other than just getting a job. Meeting people from myriad backgrounds, learning how to study and reason are all very important reasons to further an education. The costs have become horrible thanks to the GOP slashing state support for public universities. I wish people would wake up and stop drinking the Koolaid about an education being of no use for us working class folks.

Good luck to you and your kids.

Sorry for the long post. Hope it gives you some ideas for your kids. Congratulations on getting through school during the Reagan years. That was not a fun time to scramble through school.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
80. All well and good, but a livable-wage "good" job is still mandatory.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:41 PM
Nov 2014

The other things are nice and might be a lot of fun. However, they don't put bread on your table and therefore are optional.

I'm at a commuter college because that's what my family can afford. The only people from "myriad backgrounds" I've met here are people who went to high school in the next town over.

Although we do have a "foreign exchange student" of sorts who was born alllllllllllll the way far away in Berlin.

As in Berlin, Connecticut.

"Ich bin ein Connecticut Yankee."

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
104. So sorry you do not find other people interesting.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:40 AM
Nov 2014

If you go into it with more of an open mind, you might find people are really interesting.

Good luck.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
94. Thanks...+1
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:34 PM
Nov 2014

Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:26 AM - Edit history (1)

Fortunately, they're all doing very well grades-wise and in extra-curricular activities. Still, competition is fierce. And I will recommend to my kids that they avoid accumulating huge debt, but if they don't go to college simply because of money, they will be shutting themselves off to opportunities and access that plumbers don't always have.

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
103. Glad your kids are doing well. Do check out the ideas on academic scholarships.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:37 AM
Nov 2014

There is money out there to offset some of the cost. I keep hoping our politicians will wake up and finally appreciate that we need an educated populace. My SO likes to tell people who carp about spending on education how those kids you do not want to spend money on now will be taking care of you in the future. He always gets spooked looks back, like they never thought of that before.

Really when you thing about it, if a kid goes to a state school and borrows all the cost for an education, the debt will still be not much more than the cost of some new cars. I always encourage kids to at least try college and try a variety of classes to get an idea on what they want to study.

Good luck to you and your family. It is an adventure.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
84. I don't mind if it's nursing school or an EE degree
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:55 PM
Nov 2014

But the fluffy Kumbaya '60s burnout basket-weaving crap has just got to go. College is a joke anyway with all these bullshit classes offered under (decreasingly) "legitimate" departments. Who the fuck is going to shell out $90K so their kids can take "Sociology of Miley Cyrus" or "Gender Studies of Beyoncé"? You can take Klingon as a foreign language at some places, FFS. And it counts for your language distribution requirement. Not, you know, something useful and actually real like Chinese or Spanish.

At a community college in my area is a class called "Sociology of Seinfeld." Not that there's anything wrong with that?

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
92. Yeah, when I went to college
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:20 PM
Nov 2014

I believe I actually learned how, over a lifetime, to develop my ability to analyze and interpret deeper levels of meaning in myself, in other people, and in life in general.

I'm actually an independent scholar now (which means I research, write, and publish for the love of it sans $$$) and, while I'd love to have the resources available to full-time, academic scholars, I know I wouldn't last a minute in the fairy-tale world that many college campuses have become.

I've actually had full-time academics tell me that they envy me my freedom (which, from my vantage point, is over-rated, but I guess it depends on where you're coming from).

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
105. Oh I get it now, if a subject is not something you think will make money then it is not worth it.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:54 AM
Nov 2014

Lots of people like to learn how to think about things in new ways. That is the most important lesson from an education. Being totally inflexible in how one thinks does not allow a person to grow personally or professionally. Rigidity of the mind is not a good quality in any profession.

There are a couple of artists in this area that make a pretty decent income weaving baskets, by the way. One basket weaver I know, makes more than my plumber.

I can see many reasons to study a created language like Klingon. You should try something different sometime, you might enjoy thinking along new lines.

No Child Left Behind and RttP have done a lot of damage to young peoples' brains. The massive amount of testing has stymied the brain development in many. You should do try to combat that by taking some challenging classes. You do not want to become that "Get of my Lawn" guy at such a young age.

Good Luck!

Catherine Vincent

(34,488 posts)
81. An Independent plumber maybe
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:43 PM
Nov 2014

But if they work for a plumbing company, I don't think they make that much.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
97. There is a rather classist attitude that the trades are "below" white-collar jobs.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:15 AM
Nov 2014

And it show in this thread. Tell a person they should go into the trades and you risk a riot.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
2. It's actually a great idea. Union plumbers in NYC =$60/hr.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:59 PM
Nov 2014

No student loan debt and a ticket firmly in the middle class. Your job can't be outsourced either. Unionize. Organize.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
18. Until the same billionaires kill the unions, at least.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:08 PM
Nov 2014

I wonder how many more plumbers they think this magical economy will support?

Nay

(12,051 posts)
46. However, your job can be done by 'guest' workers or cheap imported
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:38 PM
Nov 2014

workers if the union is busted or there's a big blip in the economy. My son, a union electrician, no longer does that work for those reasons.

Proud Public Servant

(2,097 posts)
4. We've got an oversupply
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:59 PM
Nov 2014

of unemployed college grads with mediocre degrees from 3rd-tier schools -- and we've got an undersupply of skilled labor. Makes sense to me.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
98. It's because people were told that college was THE way to the Middle Class.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:19 AM
Nov 2014

And the banksters and education industry made a fortune with all that sweet loan money that can't be discharged through bankruptcy.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
5. What's wrong with being a plumber?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 04:59 PM
Nov 2014

They make pretty good money, it's an honest job and it takes a lot of skill.

Not everyone needs to get a degree.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
7. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, and you have missed my point. I worked next
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:01 PM
Nov 2014

to plumbers the entire 25 years I was in the construction business. I am semi-retired union.

I just think the 1% would rather see all us proles doing shit for them rather than knowing anything beyond a trade and having...Yikes!...any ideas.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
86. Ideas about what? Transcendental poets and the philosophy of Star Trek?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:59 PM
Nov 2014

Go to Wolfram Alpha if that's your thing. Go check out an Emerson book from Project Gutenberg or your local library.

And go to school for something useful. Even if it cost $0 to get a post-secondary education, I'd say that if your money is going towards a degree in Italian Renaissance poetry you're really getting what you pay for.

I suppose you could always translate the menu at Olive Garden.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
29. My nephew- in-law is a UNION plumber
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:27 PM
Nov 2014

for the LIRR. He also does work on the side freelance. Business? No, not really because his bread and butter is his RR job. Everything else is just gravy.

He once said to my college educated husband, "I don't have a college degree, but I have never been out of work a day in my life."They cannot offshore fixing your shower." My IT husband has been offshored 3 times and out of work for a total of 3 years. Actually, he himself tells all young people to forget college and learn a skilled TRADE instead.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
6. Nothing wrong with being a plumber.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:01 PM
Nov 2014

Writing checks to the plumber are among the most painful moments of my life.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
11. Didn't say there was. That wasn't the point of my pointing out what a 1%er's idea of what we proles
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:03 PM
Nov 2014

should be doing with our lives.

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
28. "If you don't get good grades, you'll end up digging ditches"
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:26 PM
Nov 2014

That was my mom's mantra.

Now I drive by the job site and look at that guy sitting atop that big Caterpillar, probably pulling in 60-70 an hour and I think "thanks, mom!"

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
13. I've been saying that for years...
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:04 PM
Nov 2014

If asked what to study, I tell them auto mechanics.

Education is great, and I have nothing against a degree in women's studies or medieval art, but I have a real problem with going into deep hock for that degree.

An accounting degree will get you a job, as will being able to fix a car. Anything else you can do on your own time and dime after you get a decent job.

Note that it is entirely irrelevant that it's a billionaire saying this-- most of us have less chance of earning billions than we do of winning the lottery. Good advice is good advice no matter where it comes from.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
16. If everyone decided to become Plumbers then
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:07 PM
Nov 2014

soon only Plumbers who attended technical schools would be landing jobs bringing us back to needing to go to school to have a decent job.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
47. True - there's the lack of ability to outsource
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:39 PM
Nov 2014

I guess, maybe someday they'll be mailing the pipes to China.

And it is symbolic for all such things - hair cutting, grass cutting, gardening, heating and air conditioning, whatever has to be done here.

But more people see it and flock to it and before you know it, people will be claiming advantage in that competition due to have this or that certificate or degree.

Plumbing can involve handling gross stuff, so I figure it's why only the strong stomach go into it and it's thus like that. Same with being a nurse.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
22. Duetsey said it upthread better than I did in my OP:
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:12 PM
Nov 2014

"What I don't like about Bloomberg's attitude is it implies, for me, a justification for rigid class stratification that keeps college available only to the privileged. "

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
61. Not everyone needs college
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:10 PM
Nov 2014

and your attitude perpetuates the myth that you're less worthy if you don't go to college.

ProfessorGAC

(64,995 posts)
130. And Bloomberg's Attitude. . .
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:32 PM
Nov 2014

. . .reinforces the trend that only those born with money deserve to go to college.

You might be riding the wrong train on this topic.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
23. If everyone went into those skilled labor positions
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:13 PM
Nov 2014

What happens to the average wage? It goes down due to a large supply of labor. The current advantage of these trades is that they are 1.) Not commonly sought after and 2.) Often unionized.

If you eliminate condition 1 and our society is on the way to completely destroying condition 2, you have a large supply of cheaply paid skilled labor. Good for the capital class, not a good deal for workers.

Furthermore, anyone at the commanding heights of the economy (billionaires) understands this. His suggestion should be seen in this light, and not the sage advice of a concerned aristocrat.

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
25. Doncha just love it when the monied elite hand down advice to their lessers?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:20 PM
Nov 2014

Holy epiphany Batman! Not everyone is "college material"; some people are actually smart AND mechanically skilled! Who'd uh thunkit?!

Yeah, asshole, there might be more plumbers and welders and mechanics if rich douchebags like you didn't look down on everyone who gets their hands dirty.

I"d like to see Mike Rowe just slap the shit out of Bloomberg.

On edit: Why have we decided the two are mutually exclusive? What the hell is wrong with a well-educated tradesperson?

Depaysement

(1,835 posts)
26. What's wrong with being a plumber AND going to college?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:24 PM
Nov 2014

Education is not just a bourgeoise tool for class advancement. It has value all by itself, even if no other potential rewards existed. It is the food and drink of the mind and tradesmen have as much right to learn, study and think as anyone else.

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
33. Me? My degree is in Medieval Art History...
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:30 PM
Nov 2014

I just do this plumbing job to pay off my student loans.

Depaysement

(1,835 posts)
48. Thank you for making me feel exceptional!
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:39 PM
Nov 2014

I was in the trades and went to college and then earned two graduate degrees.

RedCappedBandit

(5,514 posts)
126. That's the problem.
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:17 PM
Nov 2014

People shouldn't have to make this choice with the threat of immense debt looming over them.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
30. Man this is actually bothering me now
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:28 PM
Nov 2014

This is ignoring the fact that rigorous licensure is intended to keep the labor supply low and well qualified, which is why veteran plumbers can pull in six figure salaries in metropolitan areas. The median salary is closer to 49k a year, far from the gravy train people are saying it is. If you had a sudden upsurge in labor you would see those high paying positions deteriorate and licensing costs and educational requirements would increase as an attempt to keep the top tier labor supply artificially low would set in, and you would see the wages for the rest of the field plummet.

No, this is bad economic thought, or rather, it is beneficial to aristocrats but would be a disaster for the skilled trades.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
31. as the son of a plumber
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:29 PM
Nov 2014

let me make the point:

Of course, we need to treat tradespeople a hell of a lot better. My father would walk into many a doctor or lawyer's office, and the idiot would be clueless as to why they need to shut the water down when a backflow was busted. You wanna drink sewage sir, that's fine, but your clients will sue you. We need UNION tradespeople, as many a yuppie will glaldy seek out non union types to do their job at half the price.

However, just because tradespoeple need respect doesnot mean we can overlook what Bloomberg MEANT. His kind want to keep working class kids out of college, because then you could have class advancement, where kids with vowels in ther names could actually threaten to sneak intio the push and cushy places of power that college acts as the gatekeeper for. W. probably could not have gotten into a Low tier Texas Community college, but because Yale is a gatekeeper of power, he got in.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
37. yeah that is an element
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:32 PM
Nov 2014

There is also the fact that large amounts of labor = lower wages and they know this. Imagine only having people in power being sympathetic to your power and position, but also having all the skilled labor that still needs to get done come really cheap. It is basically a winning proposition for aristocrats on both fronts.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
88. Nobody's going to sneak into power getting bullshit degrees.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:05 PM
Nov 2014

I know tradespeople in my area who live in houses that would make Bloombooger salivate. Many of them ended up going to college and getting engineering degrees, for which they now make even more BANK doing municipal contract work.

I've also seen plenty of PhD candidates getting $7/hour to wipe geriatric asses at convalescent homes. Before they make your sandwich at Subway.

Moral of the story: Life of the mind = job of the bowels.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
119. Ah the resentment just seeps through
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 11:52 AM
Nov 2014

My degree is in Latin and Ancient History. I make 3 times the median salary of a plumber. My life of the mind is treating me quite well, thanks.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
136. Bloomberg is a billionaire
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 05:01 PM
Nov 2014

I highly doubt tradespeople have houses that would make him salivate (he owns a townhouse in NYC and a 20 million dollar estate in Southampton).

chrisa

(4,524 posts)
32. I disagree. I think he's right.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:29 PM
Nov 2014

Some people are not cut out for college (not less intelligent, just not cut out for a desk job) and are excellent with their hands. For some people, college is a waste of money and time.

Even in my profession (programming), skills are highly favorable. Many places require a college degree, but I'm sure they would make an exception for a highly talented and skilled individual.

A college degree on itself own has limited worth. Skills, knowledge, and talent are also very important for many jobs. That's not to say, though, that college isn't a great way to get skills and knowledge.

JI7

(89,247 posts)
34. i see nothing wrong with it, plumbers could also more easily start their own business
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:31 PM
Nov 2014

which is more likely to do well because of their own knowledge and experience.

the same goes for similar type jobs.

things like this should not be looked down upon.



 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
35. Welcome to Scrooge's America!
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:31 PM
Nov 2014

Where society values most of us living in poverty the way of the time of Dickens!

I say FUCK THAT! And it's time many of the rest of us say that too!

And he put a lot of money in to Oregon's elections too, some of which he got slapped down for (Measure 90!) And this guy is supposed to be "liberal" by Rush and other right winger's standards? He WAS a Republican! I keep having to remind them!

And just to note! Nothing wrong with being a plumber! But he seems to try to make it sound like we should just accept a "lesser" role in society than we were used to in the past. That is the notion that is insulting to me!

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
36. It was just a suggestion for kids to consider.......and a very good one, at that.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:31 PM
Nov 2014

I think in many ways we put too much emphasis on 'getting a college education'. First of all, not everyone is cut out for college and that doesn't mean that those people aren't sufficiently intelligent, just that different people have different aptitudes. Second, there are lots of jobs that don't require a college education that are essential, much in demand and pay very well.

I'm no big fan of Bloomy, but I fail to see why his wealth should preclude him from making a reasonable suggestion which, by the way, shows respect for the trades as a good alternative for youngsters to consider.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
38. Good? For who?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:33 PM
Nov 2014

Look at how labor supply interacts with wages and then come back and tell us how good this is.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
45. Hm, alright
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:38 PM
Nov 2014

Lots of people means the wages go down, as the labor supply is more than the demand for that labor. This means that you either have to accept the wages of, say, plumbers reducing due to increases labor supply or you have to use the licensure process to artificially limit the labor supply and therefore keep wages at a high level. Anyone in the highest tiers of the economy knows this, which means Bloomberg knows it too. He isn't suggesting that lots of people become skilled tradesmen and earn high wages, he is saying people should join the trades and increase the labor supply where their wage will be reduced and people like him can hire them for the things they need to get done at a much lower cost to themselves.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
132. What a bunch of bullshit
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:52 PM
Nov 2014

I could apply that logic to ANYONE telling ANYONE ELSE to look into ANY field. "Oh, you told your neighbor to look into accounting? You just want to drive down wages for accountants. Oh, I misheard you? You told your neighbor to look at being a police officer? Of, you just want to drive down wages for police officers."

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
134. Yeah and it would be true
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 04:50 PM
Nov 2014

Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)

If you advocated for a policy that would throw lots of people into professions, as this is basic economics (Exception: the police officer example is a public sector job, things work a bit differently there so I don't know why you would use that). Except where you are wrong and weirdly hysterical is that this isn't a matter of some people giving advice to another 1 on 1 with similarly small scale consequences, it is a person saying that as a matter of how society should be organized we should take the bulk of individuals and put them into skilled trades. That would have a large scale impact on the economy and depress wages of those skilled trades unless the professions engaged in artificial labor scarcity by way of credential creep.

This is not complex stuff, joe.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
138. President Obama has advocated EXACTLY this same thing
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:40 PM
Nov 2014

Please link me to the post where you came to the same conclusion.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
139. What are you talking about?
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:43 PM
Nov 2014

Large labor supply depressing wages has been a verified economic fact for centuries. What are you talking about regarding the same conclusion?

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
141. You claimed the mayor's comment was a negative comment
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 08:57 PM
Nov 2014

because it would depress wages (which is a bullshit claim I will address below). I wanted to see where you posted the same response when Obama said the same thing as the mayor.

Now, as to why it is a bullshit claim - you are stating for a fact that people are being removed from one job pool and going into another, increasing the supply of labor and driving down wages (as an aside, I assume you also oppose our president's view on illegal immigration because of the impact it has on this equation and, therefore, the working class). However, the mayor is not talking to people who would otherwise be a Doctor or an attorney or an accountant. He is talking to people who will most likely not succeed in a college because their strengths lie elsewhere. Most likely, they will go to college, rack up tens of thousands in debt and end up in a trade. He is saying people need to see the trade as a viable, respectable path and not think they have to go to college because EVERYONE says that is what we all must do. Thus, the individual ends up in the same job pool, just without tens of thousands in debt and years of wasted earning potential.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
142. Ok
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 09:06 PM
Nov 2014

And what happens if lots of people enter into these somewhat well paying jobs? They stop becoming somewhat well paying as the larger number of labor in the field depresses the wages as you now have more labor than there is demand, in addition to larger scale plumbing businesses and the direct consumer being able to depress the wages via inter-labor competition.

The median income of plumbers is only 49k at the moment, imagine if the workforce for it increased by 50%. This would have an overall negative effect on the median wage, so it ceases to become well paying.

I don't care if Obama or Bloomberg supports this, they are neo-liberals and this is actually a core component of neo-liberalism. The wage depression would be a feature, not a bug, and thus cannot be interpreted as a negative in the sense that advocates of that ideology do not take it as a negative.

The only way to interpret statements advocating pushing millions of people into the trades (in a capitalist system) in a pro-labor light is in the presence of strong union protections, but as this is also anathema to neo-liberal ideology you can expect that wouldn't be a part of such a push.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
143. What do you think illegal immigrants do to these fields?
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 10:26 PM
Nov 2014

I can tell you the pain my father (and our family) went through in the 80's and 90's with illegal immigrants flooding the drywall profession was much greater than any impact this could have on the profession.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
144. yeah?
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 10:47 PM
Nov 2014

Imagine most of the non-STEM college grads now and most future grads flooding these skilled trades, the effect would be very similar and you'd see these fields quickly become just another form of cheap labor in the absence of unions and restrictions on the labor supply. This would be great for the capital class but would be a final deathblow for the working class as the last positions that offer a decent wage without overwhelming educational barriers would be reduced to nothing.

What our capital class allowed illegal immigration to do to our labor force was a travesty, as they did nothing about it like streamlining citizenship while simultaneously using it as a racist wedge issue while the business sector got rich off of slave labor. It was evil and intentional, and folks like Bloomberg would jump at the chance to similarly destroy the skilled trades while also driving a wedge between "useless liberal arts majors" and "good ole working folks who made the right choices". It is for this reason I don't trust a word that comes out of his mouth or anyone from the mouths of his class and any American who is not a billionaire would do well to do the same. Remember: This is the guy that wants to turn NYC into a city by and for the rich and the rich only.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
145. I still think it is good advice
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 11:42 PM
Nov 2014

I understand what you are saying and also use the same skepticism. I have been fortunate (although I have busted my ass) to get where I am (I have a masters in accounting and my CPA - oddly, not considered a STEM field by ICE). Myself and many of my friends belonged in college (as we excelled academically) and it shows. However, I have a number of friends that went to college with us because that is what they were told they were supposed to do. They work very hard, but just didn't excel academically. They all ended up dropping out and now work very respectable careers (electrician, sanitation worker and finished carpenter). Sadly, 15+ years later and they are still paying off student loans. We all knew (including themselves) that they were not cut out for college, but they went because they were told they were supposed to.

As to your first point, most people with non-STEM degrees end up in these fields anyway. I have two friends (Art degree and History degree) who are both correction officers at the state pen. From a personal growth standpoint, they picked up some great knowledge, but at a huge price. They too are still paying off student loans for degrees that added nothing from strict career standpoint. I am not convinced that these people are not already ending up in these trades. They just take an extremely path to get there. If they can get to the same point without the huge expense, that is good for them and the nation.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
43. I think I'd rather hear how we could alleviate student debt and protect us from outsourcing...
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:36 PM
Nov 2014

... that happens too much with our so-called "free trade" deals, and shutting down things like tariffs, etc.

That would be more inspiring than to tell us that we should just live in a lower end "reality" that the wealthy have pushed on to us. I don't care if he's called a liberal. As a person from that wealthy class who's trying to appeal to us, that's not a real acceptable statement from my perspective.

Just as it is his money to help shut down political parties in Oregon with his support of the Jungle Primary measure 90.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
51. Oh. So you think that those working in the trades are living a "LOWER END reality"?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:48 PM
Nov 2014

How elitist of you!

I, for one, have a lot of respect for the men and women in those careers, most of whom, by the way, make a Hell of a lot more money than I do with my college degree. Nothing "lower end" about them or the work they do or the lives they live.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
91. Like others have said here, I am not saying this, but I think Bloomberg is saying this!
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:19 PM
Nov 2014

It is HE who has the impression that we should just "accept" where we are, and HE who is positing this trade as doing so. I interpret him as making it sound like we need to accept jobs at what his idea of the lower end of reality which is what I find insulting. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer. I don't personally find it insulting that people are working in trade jobs like plumbers. What I DO find insulting is that many of our jobs are being outsourced overseas or to imported indentured servant labor jobs like H-1B and H-2B jobs, including many decent trade jobs, that should be done by Americans here. That is why people are also being pushed in to fast food jobs, etc. that we in the past have said are for high school kids and others starting in the job market.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
40. At the same time, they want to raise retirement age to 70 or more.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:34 PM
Nov 2014

Fine if you've had a desk job all your life. Not so fine if you've done physical labor.

 

Boom Sound 416

(4,185 posts)
54. It's a measure of success.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:54 PM
Nov 2014

Sure we can say money isnt everything and it isn't.

But if you can go out and make a billion on your back. Yes. That's a damn good measure.

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
58. very true; I was a college-educated auto mechanic -- a real misfit
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:05 PM
Nov 2014

Degree in education, but I really enjoyed working on cars, and the money was way better than teaching (I was making 60k a year in the 80s)

But I got a lot of attitude from the dealer managers.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
50. Thank goodness people don't listen to politicians
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:45 PM
Nov 2014

Everyone would drop out of college and become plumbers and that would be the new low wage industry. I would have prefered it if my daughters would have decided to go this route or a similar route, but they went into the food/service industry instead. My oldest is a GM at a coffee shop she makes good money, my middle child is working on becoming a nurse, my youngest is a co-manager the youngest one they ever had in the district, she is probably going places with her career. But, these are very high stress jobs. I am sure plumbing can be stressful too, but customer service type jobs like in the food industry are killer on stress levels.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
52. Funny how the wealthy send their scions not to trade schools but to the Ivys; not to the job market
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 05:49 PM
Nov 2014

but to the stock market.

My advice to Bloomberg? "DON'T KID A KIDDER."

procon

(15,805 posts)
63. Once the Republicans start removing those pesky regulations
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:26 PM
Nov 2014

how long will it be before anyone can call themselves a plumber or an electrician, or a dentist. Why not? It happens all the time right now in California where unlicensed, untrained, fly-by-night conmen, cheat, lie and steal from customers... and supposedly we have tough laws intended to protect consumers from these charlatans.

With both state and federal rightwing legislators state willing to sell their own grandmothers, the Republicans will eagerly eliminate any regulation for their wealthy paymasters on the excuse that it will be good for jobs... or some such BS. When the unions are so weak, and the craven Dems are peeing all over themselves to avoid any sort of conflict, why would a company waste money on licensed tradesmen when they can hire some bum off the street? Sure, just hand him a wrench and a receipt book and --VOILA! -- a new business is hiring lots of workers.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
65. During Bush some rich asshole suggested people go to butler school....
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:29 PM
Nov 2014

We could learn to powder his balls for him.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
66. The uber wealthy ought to be taxed out of existence.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:30 PM
Nov 2014

We ought to shrink our military too.

That money could be used to feed, shelter, educate, and provide appropriate medical care for everyone.

These uber-wealthy fuckers always act like they "earned" that money. That's bullshit. What they did was game the system.

A teacher, a laborer, a factory worker, a primary care medical professional, a construction worker, yes, a plumber too... they truly EARN money.

I'm not saying nobody ought to be wealthy, but nobody should be so wealthy they can game the political or economic system. They factory owner with the large mansion and fancy cars ought to live within easy walking, bicycling, or public transportation distance of his employees, and depend on the same public services.

Our uber-wealthy class can isolate themselves from the damage they do to the rest of us. That's wrong.


Vinca

(50,261 posts)
67. I guess it all depends on what you want in life.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:37 PM
Nov 2014

Education can be had through means other than college. You only require the piece of paper from a college if your employer requires it. A self-employed plumber can make a good living, enjoy the freedom of not being stuck in a cubicle and take all the courses she wants on the Internet, often for free. It's a shame the idea of going to college is made to seem so mandatory. Some people end up on the hook for a mortgage-like amount of money when they really didn't want to go to college in the first place.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
68. I have an MEd in Adult Community Education, among others) and 20 years as a repair plumber.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:40 PM
Nov 2014

licensed contractor.

There is nothing that prevents a plumber from studying educational philosophy, or anything else, other than their own self-imposed limitations.

Btw - given how much current policy seems to favor turning students into poverty-stricken supporters of the bankster-donors of the Democratic Party, I'm not sure it's a terrible strategy.

The big difference is that 10 years from now the repair plumber could have enough money to buy a scholarship for one of your broke college students. After she, or he, gets back from vacation.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
70. Hope that Micheal doesn't develop a need for a plumber...
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 06:56 PM
Nov 2014

If he does, it should be very expensive, say Bloomberg's net worth/2080 per hour... Parts, of course, would be extra.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
71. with the degree inflation caused by treating college as a revenue stream plumbers will soon
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:02 PM
Nov 2014

need at least an MSc: it's like in "Player Piano" when realtors need a PhD

 

ballyhoo

(2,060 posts)
72. Not a bad idea really. I made a lot of money with my degree and the
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:05 PM
Nov 2014

doors it opened, but in terms of happiness, I was much happier doing construction work. Also, no more 90 hour workweeks.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
85. Better than saying let them make burgers.
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:56 PM
Nov 2014

"To want fries with that or not to want fries with that." That is every English major's first question... their first day on the job.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
75. For some people it is the best option
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:11 PM
Nov 2014

The world only needs a limited number of Cardiologists, VXware Architects etc. We need people who can fill a whole host of functions, laying brick and stone walls, to plumbers/electricians and Dirty Jobs people. The day you can't find someone to repair your car, you realize just how important a good mechanic is.

I see this as a much needed pushback against the everyone must go to college junk. For some college is the right choice. But some people really are best a a host of other activities. Attending a Technical High School and learning a trade IMO is a much better choice for some people. Not everyone is cut out to be a college grad and work in an office/profession. And we need to acknowledge they are every bit as valued as the college grad.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
82. A professional office? What about all the Renaissance Art majors
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 07:45 PM
Nov 2014

...working at the CVS photo counter?

Anyone can work at the CVS photo counter. Point is, we don't need a bunch of Renaissance Art "experts" to explain this or that about Michelangelo, Donatello, Leonardo and Raphael.

We've got plenty of 5-year-olds who've already seen their "self portraits."

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
90. There's no reason an art history major can't then learn to be a plumber
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:17 PM
Nov 2014

That's the other half of this people seem to ignore. Nothing keeps you from going into a trade after college if you want.

JI7

(89,247 posts)
101. if they have to worry about paying off college loans
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:24 AM
Nov 2014

and not being able to find a job that pays much it can be difficult.

wouldn't the other way around be better. go to trade school first .

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
117. Trade school isn't for everybody
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 10:18 AM
Nov 2014

I attended some classes at a Vo-Tech for a while, and worked at many manual labor jobs in my younger days, and I will say that the people I attended classes and worked with could be very unpleasant and disagreeable. I also did work that was somewhat related to plumbing, and sometimes the stench was almost vomit-inducing. I was much more compatible with an academic setting. And to the person who disparages English majors, I will say that while I myself was not exactly an English major, my English-language skills have been my bread and butter for more than two decades.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
129. Well, it's up to the person
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:27 PM
Nov 2014

Facing a $100K debt with a skilled trade is better than facing it without one.

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
87. I'm all for it!
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:04 PM
Nov 2014

I've been in that industry and many of the others aound it my entire working life. I'm still in it and expect to retire somewhere within it.

Working labor is an honorable career and I take pride in every day of my work.

Pay a fair fucking wage. We wash your clothes, we build your homes, we take car of the golf courses, we cook your damn food.

We'll be happy to continue to do so. Provide the salary to let us have a solid home, healthcare, transportation, FOOD, and time to do FAMILY things.

Give us those things and we will go to trade school to serve you. We will toil happily. Provide the return for our hard work, we'll just give it back to you when we buy shit, ffs.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
135. Except that isn't Bloomberg or his ilk's game
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 04:56 PM
Nov 2014

The point is to get you to do all that stuff for cheaper and be more productive too, regardless of how it impacts your life. Remember he is perfectly fine with labor not being able to live in NYC proper due to being priced out and having to commute to serve the wealthy there, as that is what a "World City" should be, a city just for the elite.

surrealAmerican

(11,360 posts)
93. Why not do both?
Wed Nov 12, 2014, 08:22 PM
Nov 2014

There's no law that says plumbers aren't allowed to go to college.

Education is about more than job training.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
96. There is a shortage of skilled tradespeople in this country...
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:13 AM
Nov 2014

...because we were told that a college education was the ONLY path to the Middle Class. I hate Bloomie, but he is 100% right, here. That people are talking this as Bloomberg being a classist dick is part of the problem, there is nothing wrong or declasse about going into a trade.

Also, the trades can't be outsourced. People will always need plumbers, electricians, etc.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
102. There's two things to say here
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:31 AM
Nov 2014

1) The world needs plumbers. And other tradespeople. Someone has to keep the lights turned on while us academics contemplate our navels.

2) This is part of the PtB's agenda. The endgame for the monied elite has always been to have a populace poor and desperate enough that they'll work for pennies, or a meal, or a dosshouse bed for the night. Forget selling to Americans, they'll sell to the much bigger Asian markets. The object with Americans (and the British, thanks to the bastard scum Tories) is to eliminate all wage controls, all regulation on business and do away with all welfare and Social Security. Keep the drones desperate and if you won't work for tuppence a day, fuck you, there's plenty desperate enough to take it. Why did I go on this rant? Because part of this aim is that the worker drones don't need any more than basic literacy and numeracy. They want to turn higher education back into the preserve of the rich. That's why college tuition has been allowed to spiral upwards to such a degree (and the bs Tories here tripled the upper limit on tuition costs).

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
106. My BIL didn't go to college and became a plumber
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 03:37 AM
Nov 2014

He and my sister and their three kids live in my parents house. Learning a trade doesn't guarantee one success, just as getting a college education doesn't guarantee one success. This economy sucks for everyone but those at the very top.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
107. There is also that Libertarian
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 05:05 AM
Nov 2014

I can't remember his name running around offering people money to drop out of college. What a fucking dickwad. People like this want people to remain uneducated. It's all about making sure we are kept in our places.

Disclaimer: I have a master's in business administration and teach at the university level. I am currently a doctoral candidate working on my dissertation.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
109. Me and plumbing don't get along. Not everyone can be a plumber, the same
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:52 AM
Nov 2014

could be said about truck drivers.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
110. I know a plumber that drives a Rolls Royce
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 07:15 AM
Nov 2014

Owns Pipers alley and a chain of high rise apartment buildings in the Gold Coast.

You can make a lot of money plumbing.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
112. Well, why not?
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 07:42 AM
Nov 2014

The idea that everyone should or can go to college is only serving to cheapen the value of a college education while leading to a shortfall in people able to work in skilled trades like plumbing and carpentry and so on. A lot of service-sector jobs are going to be automated out of existence or outsourced. Pursuing a skilled trade rather than college is a viable option for a lot of people (and it probably offers better job security and better pay for a lot of people).

meaculpa2011

(918 posts)
114. Hey Mr. Bloomberg! I graduated college and...
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 09:20 AM
Nov 2014

I was a plumber.

Worked my way through college as an apprentice and got my NYC license after I graduated.

My career took a different turn, but there's no rule saying you can't do both.

Plus, I've saved myself plenty of money in my own home.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
115. While I share
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 09:29 AM
Nov 2014

the feeling of offense that a billionaire should be suggesting a future for any of the rest of us, I also need to point out:

I went to college. The average salary for a plumber in my area is about the same as mine, after working in my profession for 25 years. They, though, didn't have the student loan burden I did.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
116. Plumber, electrician, HVAC/R, carpenter, welding, mechanic...
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 09:30 AM
Nov 2014

and so on are all very good trades to get into. Many community colleges offer affordable 1 and 2 year programs in such fields.

WestCoastLib

(442 posts)
120. I agree with Bloomberg
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 01:36 PM
Nov 2014

Not everyone should go to college. Especially not right of of high school. There are really only a handful of bachelor's degrees that are worth the debt you are likely to incur. If you aren't interested in any of those? Don't go, or at least hold of for awhile until you decide that maybe you are interested in one of those.

The working world has changed long ago. Look up the statistics, people with a 2 year degree from a technical school earn more on average than people with a bachelor's degree.

4 year colleges are simply not worth the cost for many people. If you have a sociology degree or some other liberal arts degree, why spend the money? An employer won't value it over somebody with a few years of working experience when you are trying to get a job.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
122. I Happen
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:06 PM
Nov 2014

to completely agree with this billionaire, and I've been saying this for years. Why does everybody think they have to be a hedge fund manager? Some people are not made to be hedge fund managers, and even some who are might actually be happier doing something useful. My own plumber retired to his house in the mountains. Which he can afford in part because he made decent money as a plumber and in part because he doesn't have to pay someone else an arm and a leg to maintain it.

I had a job once working with families, many of them single mother homes. I had one woman who was going to school to be an electrician. Most of the women I workerd with wanted to go to the community college to get a degree in child care. Child care, which pays less than nothing. I hope this electrician lady made it, because I felt she had a good idea learning a trade. She was definitely thinking outside the box.

RedCappedBandit

(5,514 posts)
124. Why the fuck should our young people have to make that choice?
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:16 PM
Nov 2014

Youth should receive a college education if that's what they want. No reason they can't go on to be plumbers or work in any other job. For being the richest country in the world we sure do a shitty job educating one another.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
127. Median plumber income is 49k
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:25 PM
Nov 2014

People talking about crazy income for plumbers are talking out of their ass or otherwise they have some kind of confirmation bias.You have a small number of plumbers who are highly qualified in metropolitan areas who make large amounts of money but they are the exception.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
133. Yeah
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 04:44 PM
Nov 2014

That is not a huge difference, certainly not large enough to substantiate claims of "making bank".

Furthermore, the median for masters degrees is 60k, and Phds and professional degrees are in the 90-100k range.

People are cherry picking some instances of plumbers making large amounts of money and applying to the whole when the stats just don't back it up. This is cherry picking data and snap judgments on gut feeling reinforced by warped anecdotes, pure and simple.

It turns out the problems with the economy go deeper than easy solutions peddled by aristocrats which would have long lasting damage to the professions they are telling people to go into. Weird, isn't it?

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
137. Billionaires need to just STFU . . .
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 05:04 PM
Nov 2014

And be thankful that we proles aren't breaking into their gated communities with our torches and pitchforks.

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
146. College is highly overrated and discriminatory
Thu Nov 13, 2014, 11:58 PM
Nov 2014

I get that you should need college to be a doctor or lawyer. You should not need it, however, to become a fire fighter, sanitation worker, correction officer, or bus driver. Many states and cities require unnecessary college degrees for jobs that should not need it, and it is pure discrimination.

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