General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBillionaire says: "Why not become a plumber instead of going to college?"
- Micheal BloombergAnd there you have it, folks. That's their endgame and the idea is being given "what a great idea!" support on CNN right this second. "Hey, maybe it's not such a bad idea!" says the CNN talking head.
DISCLAIMER: I am a 25-year semi-retired union construction trade veteran who has worked alongside plumbers all my life. They are the salt of the earth and we all make good money. That's not what I meant. But I think some of you know that. What I'm saying is that I don't think a billionaire has any place suggesting us proles don't go to college and instead pursue service careers so we can build and fix their stuff for a crust of bread.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)just sayin'
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)plumbers, electricians and tradespeople are essential but looked down upon. Crazy times.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)Far as I'm concerned, the title of "doctor" should be reserved for a physician in a white lab coat. Not an intellectual blowhard in a tweed jacket with elbow patches. Never mind the Latin roots either. A D.Div (Doctor of Divinity) probably doesn't even believe in modern science, let alone know anything about medicine. Unless one counts exorcisms and round-the-clock novenas to be legitimate medical practice.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)than for hedge funders or some lawyers or scamming plastic surgeons.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)Cardiologists, oncologists, pediatricians, gynecologists... REAL doctors. Not Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil. Heck, I have more respect for Dr. Kevorkian than even those two.
I still have no respect for the Piled High & Deep crowd, though. Bill Cosby may be a "doctor" of education but as far as I'm concerned, he's an even more fictional doctor now than when he was an actual fictional doctor playing Cliff Huxtable.
A PhD in "important"-sounding shit like Medieval Weaponry or Freudian Gender Studies is just a made-up phony sheepskin.
By the way, a Doctor of Education is an Ed.D. AKA a doctor of ED. I guess we can file Cosby under men's health specialist?
"I know, Doc. That's what she said."
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)krawhitham
(4,643 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)(just setting the record straight because I am one)
tenderfoot
(8,426 posts)Just sayin'...
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)at this point i'm just running out the clock
deutsey
(20,166 posts)I wish I had taken more time to develop practical, hands-on skills like plumbing over my life.
What I don't like about Bloomberg's attitude is it implies, for me, a justification for rigid class stratification that keeps college available only to the privileged.
I'm from the working class and was the first in my family to go to college. It was during the Reagan era, so it was a financial struggle. Today, unless my kids get big scholarships, I don't know how they'll be able to go, assuming that's what they'll even want to do.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Rigid class structure means he and his ilk get to have guns, but not the rest of us.
greatlaurel
(2,004 posts)There are lots of people who can become plumbers and other skilled tradespeople and enjoy the work, but you still have to go to school and do an apprenticeship. Have a couple of friends' kids who went to trade schools. It was more expensive per year than my kids' college expenses.
Besides that, how many jobs are really out there for skilled tradespeople? Sure there is a demand for skilled trades, but those jobs cannot be enough for every working class kid. This is such a condescending attitude from another obscenely rich guy who is surrounded with people dedicated to telling him what a mental giant he is. He has no idea what he is talking about. Secondly, it is clear by his statement that he feels certain that all that money sending most of us to college is a big waste of money. If we were so smart, we would already be billionaires like him. In his tiny weird world, the only children worth educating are only the ones born into money, of course.
If your kids are in junior high or high school, there are ways to get scholarships at a lot of state and even private schools. Have they taken the ACT or SAT yet? At Ohio University, if they score a 32 ACT(do not remember the SAT score, it is on their website) they can get a Gateway scholarship that covers 100% of tuition. That is a tough score to reach, but most kids have a shot at getting a score close enough to get a partial Gateway. I am certain many other universities have similar programs. Living expenses are still expensive, but there are additional aid packages and scholarships. Of course, loans are available, but the goal is to minimize that option as much as possible. You should check with all your state schools on the financial aid available for your kids. Another thing to check out are branch campuses. Here in Ohio the state schools have branch campuses which are much less expensive than the main campuses and are within commuting distances, so kids can save money on living expenses, while they get their first or second year courses out of the way. Not as much fun as living on campus, but still a good way to get an education. The classes are usually taught by faculty who are really interested in teaching, too, another bonus for branch campuses. The OU branch near us gives kids full tuition scholarships if they score a 25 on the ACT.
One other thing is if you can swing it have the kids take both the ACT and SAT to see which they score better on. They are not limited to taking it just once, so they can work to better their scores, without stressing out so much. The best thing to do is have them take it early in high school or late middle school, so you know where they are. Both ACT and SAT have practice questions on their websites, so kids can review on their own. A lot of rich people send their kids to test prep classes, but we could not have afforded it even if it was available here(very rural area).
I hate it when people denigrate getting an education. A college education is about so much more than a job training program. Young people can gain so many skills other than just getting a job. Meeting people from myriad backgrounds, learning how to study and reason are all very important reasons to further an education. The costs have become horrible thanks to the GOP slashing state support for public universities. I wish people would wake up and stop drinking the Koolaid about an education being of no use for us working class folks.
Good luck to you and your kids.
Sorry for the long post. Hope it gives you some ideas for your kids. Congratulations on getting through school during the Reagan years. That was not a fun time to scramble through school.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)The other things are nice and might be a lot of fun. However, they don't put bread on your table and therefore are optional.
I'm at a commuter college because that's what my family can afford. The only people from "myriad backgrounds" I've met here are people who went to high school in the next town over.
Although we do have a "foreign exchange student" of sorts who was born alllllllllllll the way far away in Berlin.
As in Berlin, Connecticut.
"Ich bin ein Connecticut Yankee."
greatlaurel
(2,004 posts)If you go into it with more of an open mind, you might find people are really interesting.
Good luck.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 06:26 AM - Edit history (1)
Fortunately, they're all doing very well grades-wise and in extra-curricular activities. Still, competition is fierce. And I will recommend to my kids that they avoid accumulating huge debt, but if they don't go to college simply because of money, they will be shutting themselves off to opportunities and access that plumbers don't always have.
greatlaurel
(2,004 posts)There is money out there to offset some of the cost. I keep hoping our politicians will wake up and finally appreciate that we need an educated populace. My SO likes to tell people who carp about spending on education how those kids you do not want to spend money on now will be taking care of you in the future. He always gets spooked looks back, like they never thought of that before.
Really when you thing about it, if a kid goes to a state school and borrows all the cost for an education, the debt will still be not much more than the cost of some new cars. I always encourage kids to at least try college and try a variety of classes to get an idea on what they want to study.
Good luck to you and your family. It is an adventure.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)But the fluffy Kumbaya '60s burnout basket-weaving crap has just got to go. College is a joke anyway with all these bullshit classes offered under (decreasingly) "legitimate" departments. Who the fuck is going to shell out $90K so their kids can take "Sociology of Miley Cyrus" or "Gender Studies of Beyoncé"? You can take Klingon as a foreign language at some places, FFS. And it counts for your language distribution requirement. Not, you know, something useful and actually real like Chinese or Spanish.
At a community college in my area is a class called "Sociology of Seinfeld." Not that there's anything wrong with that?
deutsey
(20,166 posts)I believe I actually learned how, over a lifetime, to develop my ability to analyze and interpret deeper levels of meaning in myself, in other people, and in life in general.
I'm actually an independent scholar now (which means I research, write, and publish for the love of it sans $$$) and, while I'd love to have the resources available to full-time, academic scholars, I know I wouldn't last a minute in the fairy-tale world that many college campuses have become.
I've actually had full-time academics tell me that they envy me my freedom (which, from my vantage point, is over-rated, but I guess it depends on where you're coming from).
greatlaurel
(2,004 posts)Lots of people like to learn how to think about things in new ways. That is the most important lesson from an education. Being totally inflexible in how one thinks does not allow a person to grow personally or professionally. Rigidity of the mind is not a good quality in any profession.
There are a couple of artists in this area that make a pretty decent income weaving baskets, by the way. One basket weaver I know, makes more than my plumber.
I can see many reasons to study a created language like Klingon. You should try something different sometime, you might enjoy thinking along new lines.
No Child Left Behind and RttP have done a lot of damage to young peoples' brains. The massive amount of testing has stymied the brain development in many. You should do try to combat that by taking some challenging classes. You do not want to become that "Get of my Lawn" guy at such a young age.
Good Luck!
Catherine Vincent
(34,488 posts)But if they work for a plumbing company, I don't think they make that much.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)But yes, they can be exploited just like anyone else.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)And it show in this thread. Tell a person they should go into the trades and you risk a riot.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)No student loan debt and a ticket firmly in the middle class. Your job can't be outsourced either. Unionize. Organize.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)I wonder how many more plumbers they think this magical economy will support?
Nay
(12,051 posts)workers if the union is busted or there's a big blip in the economy. My son, a union electrician, no longer does that work for those reasons.
494 here.
unions
spyker29
(89 posts)Red State Rebel
(2,903 posts)BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)of unemployed college grads with mediocre degrees from 3rd-tier schools -- and we've got an undersupply of skilled labor. Makes sense to me.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)And the banksters and education industry made a fortune with all that sweet loan money that can't be discharged through bankruptcy.
sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)They make pretty good money, it's an honest job and it takes a lot of skill.
Not everyone needs to get a degree.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)to plumbers the entire 25 years I was in the construction business. I am semi-retired union.
I just think the 1% would rather see all us proles doing shit for them rather than knowing anything beyond a trade and having...Yikes!...any ideas.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)Go to Wolfram Alpha if that's your thing. Go check out an Emerson book from Project Gutenberg or your local library.
And go to school for something useful. Even if it cost $0 to get a post-secondary education, I'd say that if your money is going towards a degree in Italian Renaissance poetry you're really getting what you pay for.
I suppose you could always translate the menu at Olive Garden.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)You need to be successful in business too.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)for the LIRR. He also does work on the side freelance. Business? No, not really because his bread and butter is his RR job. Everything else is just gravy.
He once said to my college educated husband, "I don't have a college degree, but I have never been out of work a day in my life."They cannot offshore fixing your shower." My IT husband has been offshored 3 times and out of work for a total of 3 years. Actually, he himself tells all young people to forget college and learn a skilled TRADE instead.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Writing checks to the plumber are among the most painful moments of my life.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)should be doing with our lives.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)FSogol
(45,476 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)That was my mom's mantra.
Now I drive by the job site and look at that guy sitting atop that big Caterpillar, probably pulling in 60-70 an hour and I think "thanks, mom!"
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)If asked what to study, I tell them auto mechanics.
Education is great, and I have nothing against a degree in women's studies or medieval art, but I have a real problem with going into deep hock for that degree.
An accounting degree will get you a job, as will being able to fix a car. Anything else you can do on your own time and dime after you get a decent job.
Note that it is entirely irrelevant that it's a billionaire saying this-- most of us have less chance of earning billions than we do of winning the lottery. Good advice is good advice no matter where it comes from.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)--imm
dilby
(2,273 posts)soon only Plumbers who attended technical schools would be landing jobs bringing us back to needing to go to school to have a decent job.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I guess, maybe someday they'll be mailing the pipes to China.
And it is symbolic for all such things - hair cutting, grass cutting, gardening, heating and air conditioning, whatever has to be done here.
But more people see it and flock to it and before you know it, people will be claiming advantage in that competition due to have this or that certificate or degree.
Plumbing can involve handling gross stuff, so I figure it's why only the strong stomach go into it and it's thus like that. Same with being a nurse.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Which is one damn good argument for being a plumber.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)be reduced to a low wage position due to a large labor supply.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)"What I don't like about Bloomberg's attitude is it implies, for me, a justification for rigid class stratification that keeps college available only to the privileged. "
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)and your attitude perpetuates the myth that you're less worthy if you don't go to college.
ProfessorGAC
(64,995 posts). . .reinforces the trend that only those born with money deserve to go to college.
You might be riding the wrong train on this topic.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)What happens to the average wage? It goes down due to a large supply of labor. The current advantage of these trades is that they are 1.) Not commonly sought after and 2.) Often unionized.
If you eliminate condition 1 and our society is on the way to completely destroying condition 2, you have a large supply of cheaply paid skilled labor. Good for the capital class, not a good deal for workers.
Furthermore, anyone at the commanding heights of the economy (billionaires) understands this. His suggestion should be seen in this light, and not the sage advice of a concerned aristocrat.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Holy epiphany Batman! Not everyone is "college material"; some people are actually smart AND mechanically skilled! Who'd uh thunkit?!
Yeah, asshole, there might be more plumbers and welders and mechanics if rich douchebags like you didn't look down on everyone who gets their hands dirty.
I"d like to see Mike Rowe just slap the shit out of Bloomberg.
On edit: Why have we decided the two are mutually exclusive? What the hell is wrong with a well-educated tradesperson?
geardaddy
(24,926 posts)Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Education is not just a bourgeoise tool for class advancement. It has value all by itself, even if no other potential rewards existed. It is the food and drink of the mind and tradesmen have as much right to learn, study and think as anyone else.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)I just do this plumbing job to pay off my student loans.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)I was in the trades and went to college and then earned two graduate degrees.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)People shouldn't have to make this choice with the threat of immense debt looming over them.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)This is ignoring the fact that rigorous licensure is intended to keep the labor supply low and well qualified, which is why veteran plumbers can pull in six figure salaries in metropolitan areas. The median salary is closer to 49k a year, far from the gravy train people are saying it is. If you had a sudden upsurge in labor you would see those high paying positions deteriorate and licensing costs and educational requirements would increase as an attempt to keep the top tier labor supply artificially low would set in, and you would see the wages for the rest of the field plummet.
No, this is bad economic thought, or rather, it is beneficial to aristocrats but would be a disaster for the skilled trades.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)let me make the point:
Of course, we need to treat tradespeople a hell of a lot better. My father would walk into many a doctor or lawyer's office, and the idiot would be clueless as to why they need to shut the water down when a backflow was busted. You wanna drink sewage sir, that's fine, but your clients will sue you. We need UNION tradespeople, as many a yuppie will glaldy seek out non union types to do their job at half the price.
However, just because tradespoeple need respect doesnot mean we can overlook what Bloomberg MEANT. His kind want to keep working class kids out of college, because then you could have class advancement, where kids with vowels in ther names could actually threaten to sneak intio the push and cushy places of power that college acts as the gatekeeper for. W. probably could not have gotten into a Low tier Texas Community college, but because Yale is a gatekeeper of power, he got in.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)There is also the fact that large amounts of labor = lower wages and they know this. Imagine only having people in power being sympathetic to your power and position, but also having all the skilled labor that still needs to get done come really cheap. It is basically a winning proposition for aristocrats on both fronts.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)I know tradespeople in my area who live in houses that would make Bloombooger salivate. Many of them ended up going to college and getting engineering degrees, for which they now make even more BANK doing municipal contract work.
I've also seen plenty of PhD candidates getting $7/hour to wipe geriatric asses at convalescent homes. Before they make your sandwich at Subway.
Moral of the story: Life of the mind = job of the bowels.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)My degree is in Latin and Ancient History. I make 3 times the median salary of a plumber. My life of the mind is treating me quite well, thanks.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)I highly doubt tradespeople have houses that would make him salivate (he owns a townhouse in NYC and a 20 million dollar estate in Southampton).
chrisa
(4,524 posts)Some people are not cut out for college (not less intelligent, just not cut out for a desk job) and are excellent with their hands. For some people, college is a waste of money and time.
Even in my profession (programming), skills are highly favorable. Many places require a college degree, but I'm sure they would make an exception for a highly talented and skilled individual.
A college degree on itself own has limited worth. Skills, knowledge, and talent are also very important for many jobs. That's not to say, though, that college isn't a great way to get skills and knowledge.
JI7
(89,247 posts)which is more likely to do well because of their own knowledge and experience.
the same goes for similar type jobs.
things like this should not be looked down upon.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Where society values most of us living in poverty the way of the time of Dickens!
I say FUCK THAT! And it's time many of the rest of us say that too!
And he put a lot of money in to Oregon's elections too, some of which he got slapped down for (Measure 90!) And this guy is supposed to be "liberal" by Rush and other right winger's standards? He WAS a Republican! I keep having to remind them!
And just to note! Nothing wrong with being a plumber! But he seems to try to make it sound like we should just accept a "lesser" role in society than we were used to in the past. That is the notion that is insulting to me!
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)I think in many ways we put too much emphasis on 'getting a college education'. First of all, not everyone is cut out for college and that doesn't mean that those people aren't sufficiently intelligent, just that different people have different aptitudes. Second, there are lots of jobs that don't require a college education that are essential, much in demand and pay very well.
I'm no big fan of Bloomy, but I fail to see why his wealth should preclude him from making a reasonable suggestion which, by the way, shows respect for the trades as a good alternative for youngsters to consider.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Look at how labor supply interacts with wages and then come back and tell us how good this is.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Lots of people means the wages go down, as the labor supply is more than the demand for that labor. This means that you either have to accept the wages of, say, plumbers reducing due to increases labor supply or you have to use the licensure process to artificially limit the labor supply and therefore keep wages at a high level. Anyone in the highest tiers of the economy knows this, which means Bloomberg knows it too. He isn't suggesting that lots of people become skilled tradesmen and earn high wages, he is saying people should join the trades and increase the labor supply where their wage will be reduced and people like him can hire them for the things they need to get done at a much lower cost to themselves.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I could apply that logic to ANYONE telling ANYONE ELSE to look into ANY field. "Oh, you told your neighbor to look into accounting? You just want to drive down wages for accountants. Oh, I misheard you? You told your neighbor to look at being a police officer? Of, you just want to drive down wages for police officers."
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 05:52 PM - Edit history (1)
If you advocated for a policy that would throw lots of people into professions, as this is basic economics (Exception: the police officer example is a public sector job, things work a bit differently there so I don't know why you would use that). Except where you are wrong and weirdly hysterical is that this isn't a matter of some people giving advice to another 1 on 1 with similarly small scale consequences, it is a person saying that as a matter of how society should be organized we should take the bulk of individuals and put them into skilled trades. That would have a large scale impact on the economy and depress wages of those skilled trades unless the professions engaged in artificial labor scarcity by way of credential creep.
This is not complex stuff, joe.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Please link me to the post where you came to the same conclusion.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Large labor supply depressing wages has been a verified economic fact for centuries. What are you talking about regarding the same conclusion?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)because it would depress wages (which is a bullshit claim I will address below). I wanted to see where you posted the same response when Obama said the same thing as the mayor.
Now, as to why it is a bullshit claim - you are stating for a fact that people are being removed from one job pool and going into another, increasing the supply of labor and driving down wages (as an aside, I assume you also oppose our president's view on illegal immigration because of the impact it has on this equation and, therefore, the working class). However, the mayor is not talking to people who would otherwise be a Doctor or an attorney or an accountant. He is talking to people who will most likely not succeed in a college because their strengths lie elsewhere. Most likely, they will go to college, rack up tens of thousands in debt and end up in a trade. He is saying people need to see the trade as a viable, respectable path and not think they have to go to college because EVERYONE says that is what we all must do. Thus, the individual ends up in the same job pool, just without tens of thousands in debt and years of wasted earning potential.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)And what happens if lots of people enter into these somewhat well paying jobs? They stop becoming somewhat well paying as the larger number of labor in the field depresses the wages as you now have more labor than there is demand, in addition to larger scale plumbing businesses and the direct consumer being able to depress the wages via inter-labor competition.
The median income of plumbers is only 49k at the moment, imagine if the workforce for it increased by 50%. This would have an overall negative effect on the median wage, so it ceases to become well paying.
I don't care if Obama or Bloomberg supports this, they are neo-liberals and this is actually a core component of neo-liberalism. The wage depression would be a feature, not a bug, and thus cannot be interpreted as a negative in the sense that advocates of that ideology do not take it as a negative.
The only way to interpret statements advocating pushing millions of people into the trades (in a capitalist system) in a pro-labor light is in the presence of strong union protections, but as this is also anathema to neo-liberal ideology you can expect that wouldn't be a part of such a push.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I can tell you the pain my father (and our family) went through in the 80's and 90's with illegal immigrants flooding the drywall profession was much greater than any impact this could have on the profession.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Imagine most of the non-STEM college grads now and most future grads flooding these skilled trades, the effect would be very similar and you'd see these fields quickly become just another form of cheap labor in the absence of unions and restrictions on the labor supply. This would be great for the capital class but would be a final deathblow for the working class as the last positions that offer a decent wage without overwhelming educational barriers would be reduced to nothing.
What our capital class allowed illegal immigration to do to our labor force was a travesty, as they did nothing about it like streamlining citizenship while simultaneously using it as a racist wedge issue while the business sector got rich off of slave labor. It was evil and intentional, and folks like Bloomberg would jump at the chance to similarly destroy the skilled trades while also driving a wedge between "useless liberal arts majors" and "good ole working folks who made the right choices". It is for this reason I don't trust a word that comes out of his mouth or anyone from the mouths of his class and any American who is not a billionaire would do well to do the same. Remember: This is the guy that wants to turn NYC into a city by and for the rich and the rich only.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I understand what you are saying and also use the same skepticism. I have been fortunate (although I have busted my ass) to get where I am (I have a masters in accounting and my CPA - oddly, not considered a STEM field by ICE). Myself and many of my friends belonged in college (as we excelled academically) and it shows. However, I have a number of friends that went to college with us because that is what they were told they were supposed to do. They work very hard, but just didn't excel academically. They all ended up dropping out and now work very respectable careers (electrician, sanitation worker and finished carpenter). Sadly, 15+ years later and they are still paying off student loans. We all knew (including themselves) that they were not cut out for college, but they went because they were told they were supposed to.
As to your first point, most people with non-STEM degrees end up in these fields anyway. I have two friends (Art degree and History degree) who are both correction officers at the state pen. From a personal growth standpoint, they picked up some great knowledge, but at a huge price. They too are still paying off student loans for degrees that added nothing from strict career standpoint. I am not convinced that these people are not already ending up in these trades. They just take an extremely path to get there. If they can get to the same point without the huge expense, that is good for them and the nation.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... that happens too much with our so-called "free trade" deals, and shutting down things like tariffs, etc.
That would be more inspiring than to tell us that we should just live in a lower end "reality" that the wealthy have pushed on to us. I don't care if he's called a liberal. As a person from that wealthy class who's trying to appeal to us, that's not a real acceptable statement from my perspective.
Just as it is his money to help shut down political parties in Oregon with his support of the Jungle Primary measure 90.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)How elitist of you!
I, for one, have a lot of respect for the men and women in those careers, most of whom, by the way, make a Hell of a lot more money than I do with my college degree. Nothing "lower end" about them or the work they do or the lives they live.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)It is HE who has the impression that we should just "accept" where we are, and HE who is positing this trade as doing so. I interpret him as making it sound like we need to accept jobs at what his idea of the lower end of reality which is what I find insulting. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer. I don't personally find it insulting that people are working in trade jobs like plumbers. What I DO find insulting is that many of our jobs are being outsourced overseas or to imported indentured servant labor jobs like H-1B and H-2B jobs, including many decent trade jobs, that should be done by Americans here. That is why people are also being pushed in to fast food jobs, etc. that we in the past have said are for high school kids and others starting in the job market.
geardaddy
(24,926 posts)Right on the head.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)Fine if you've had a desk job all your life. Not so fine if you've done physical labor.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)And I'm not talking about inheritance.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Sure we can say money isnt everything and it isn't.
But if you can go out and make a billion on your back. Yes. That's a damn good measure.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Degree in education, but I really enjoyed working on cars, and the money was way better than teaching (I was making 60k a year in the 80s)
But I got a lot of attitude from the dealer managers.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)There are more people in college now than ever.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Everyone would drop out of college and become plumbers and that would be the new low wage industry. I would have prefered it if my daughters would have decided to go this route or a similar route, but they went into the food/service industry instead. My oldest is a GM at a coffee shop she makes good money, my middle child is working on becoming a nurse, my youngest is a co-manager the youngest one they ever had in the district, she is probably going places with her career. But, these are very high stress jobs. I am sure plumbing can be stressful too, but customer service type jobs like in the food industry are killer on stress levels.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)but to the stock market.
My advice to Bloomberg? "DON'T KID A KIDDER."
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)trade unions for my son to join and last his lifetime???
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)how long will it be before anyone can call themselves a plumber or an electrician, or a dentist. Why not? It happens all the time right now in California where unlicensed, untrained, fly-by-night conmen, cheat, lie and steal from customers... and supposedly we have tough laws intended to protect consumers from these charlatans.
With both state and federal rightwing legislators state willing to sell their own grandmothers, the Republicans will eagerly eliminate any regulation for their wealthy paymasters on the excuse that it will be good for jobs... or some such BS. When the unions are so weak, and the craven Dems are peeing all over themselves to avoid any sort of conflict, why would a company waste money on licensed tradesmen when they can hire some bum off the street? Sure, just hand him a wrench and a receipt book and --VOILA! -- a new business is hiring lots of workers.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)We could learn to powder his balls for him.
hunter
(38,310 posts)We ought to shrink our military too.
That money could be used to feed, shelter, educate, and provide appropriate medical care for everyone.
These uber-wealthy fuckers always act like they "earned" that money. That's bullshit. What they did was game the system.
A teacher, a laborer, a factory worker, a primary care medical professional, a construction worker, yes, a plumber too... they truly EARN money.
I'm not saying nobody ought to be wealthy, but nobody should be so wealthy they can game the political or economic system. They factory owner with the large mansion and fancy cars ought to live within easy walking, bicycling, or public transportation distance of his employees, and depend on the same public services.
Our uber-wealthy class can isolate themselves from the damage they do to the rest of us. That's wrong.
Vinca
(50,261 posts)Education can be had through means other than college. You only require the piece of paper from a college if your employer requires it. A self-employed plumber can make a good living, enjoy the freedom of not being stuck in a cubicle and take all the courses she wants on the Internet, often for free. It's a shame the idea of going to college is made to seem so mandatory. Some people end up on the hook for a mortgage-like amount of money when they really didn't want to go to college in the first place.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)licensed contractor.
There is nothing that prevents a plumber from studying educational philosophy, or anything else, other than their own self-imposed limitations.
Btw - given how much current policy seems to favor turning students into poverty-stricken supporters of the bankster-donors of the Democratic Party, I'm not sure it's a terrible strategy.
The big difference is that 10 years from now the repair plumber could have enough money to buy a scholarship for one of your broke college students. After she, or he, gets back from vacation.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)If he does, it should be very expensive, say Bloomberg's net worth/2080 per hour... Parts, of course, would be extra.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)need at least an MSc: it's like in "Player Piano" when realtors need a PhD
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)doors it opened, but in terms of happiness, I was much happier doing construction work. Also, no more 90 hour workweeks.
Initech
(100,063 posts)Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)"To want fries with that or not to want fries with that." That is every English major's first question... their first day on the job.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)The world only needs a limited number of Cardiologists, VXware Architects etc. We need people who can fill a whole host of functions, laying brick and stone walls, to plumbers/electricians and Dirty Jobs people. The day you can't find someone to repair your car, you realize just how important a good mechanic is.
I see this as a much needed pushback against the everyone must go to college junk. For some college is the right choice. But some people really are best a a host of other activities. Attending a Technical High School and learning a trade IMO is a much better choice for some people. Not everyone is cut out to be a college grad and work in an office/profession. And we need to acknowledge they are every bit as valued as the college grad.
Ampersand Unicode
(503 posts)...working at the CVS photo counter?
Anyone can work at the CVS photo counter. Point is, we don't need a bunch of Renaissance Art "experts" to explain this or that about Michelangelo, Donatello, Leonardo and Raphael.
We've got plenty of 5-year-olds who've already seen their "self portraits."
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's the other half of this people seem to ignore. Nothing keeps you from going into a trade after college if you want.
JI7
(89,247 posts)and not being able to find a job that pays much it can be difficult.
wouldn't the other way around be better. go to trade school first .
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I attended some classes at a Vo-Tech for a while, and worked at many manual labor jobs in my younger days, and I will say that the people I attended classes and worked with could be very unpleasant and disagreeable. I also did work that was somewhat related to plumbing, and sometimes the stench was almost vomit-inducing. I was much more compatible with an academic setting. And to the person who disparages English majors, I will say that while I myself was not exactly an English major, my English-language skills have been my bread and butter for more than two decades.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Facing a $100K debt with a skilled trade is better than facing it without one.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Did a phd candidate murder your family or something?
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)obxhead
(8,434 posts)I've been in that industry and many of the others aound it my entire working life. I'm still in it and expect to retire somewhere within it.
Working labor is an honorable career and I take pride in every day of my work.
Pay a fair fucking wage. We wash your clothes, we build your homes, we take car of the golf courses, we cook your damn food.
We'll be happy to continue to do so. Provide the salary to let us have a solid home, healthcare, transportation, FOOD, and time to do FAMILY things.
Give us those things and we will go to trade school to serve you. We will toil happily. Provide the return for our hard work, we'll just give it back to you when we buy shit, ffs.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)The point is to get you to do all that stuff for cheaper and be more productive too, regardless of how it impacts your life. Remember he is perfectly fine with labor not being able to live in NYC proper due to being priced out and having to commute to serve the wealthy there, as that is what a "World City" should be, a city just for the elite.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)surrealAmerican
(11,360 posts)There's no law that says plumbers aren't allowed to go to college.
Education is about more than job training.
JEB
(4,748 posts)He be of more use to the world that way.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...because we were told that a college education was the ONLY path to the Middle Class. I hate Bloomie, but he is 100% right, here. That people are talking this as Bloomberg being a classist dick is part of the problem, there is nothing wrong or declasse about going into a trade.
Also, the trades can't be outsourced. People will always need plumbers, electricians, etc.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)1) The world needs plumbers. And other tradespeople. Someone has to keep the lights turned on while us academics contemplate our navels.
2) This is part of the PtB's agenda. The endgame for the monied elite has always been to have a populace poor and desperate enough that they'll work for pennies, or a meal, or a dosshouse bed for the night. Forget selling to Americans, they'll sell to the much bigger Asian markets. The object with Americans (and the British, thanks to the bastard scum Tories) is to eliminate all wage controls, all regulation on business and do away with all welfare and Social Security. Keep the drones desperate and if you won't work for tuppence a day, fuck you, there's plenty desperate enough to take it. Why did I go on this rant? Because part of this aim is that the worker drones don't need any more than basic literacy and numeracy. They want to turn higher education back into the preserve of the rich. That's why college tuition has been allowed to spiral upwards to such a degree (and the bs Tories here tripled the upper limit on tuition costs).
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)He and my sister and their three kids live in my parents house. Learning a trade doesn't guarantee one success, just as getting a college education doesn't guarantee one success. This economy sucks for everyone but those at the very top.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I can't remember his name running around offering people money to drop out of college. What a fucking dickwad. People like this want people to remain uneducated. It's all about making sure we are kept in our places.
Disclaimer: I have a master's in business administration and teach at the university level. I am currently a doctoral candidate working on my dissertation.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)could be said about truck drivers.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Owns Pipers alley and a chain of high rise apartment buildings in the Gold Coast.
You can make a lot of money plumbing.
mfcorey1
(11,001 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The idea that everyone should or can go to college is only serving to cheapen the value of a college education while leading to a shortfall in people able to work in skilled trades like plumbing and carpentry and so on. A lot of service-sector jobs are going to be automated out of existence or outsourced. Pursuing a skilled trade rather than college is a viable option for a lot of people (and it probably offers better job security and better pay for a lot of people).
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)I was a plumber.
Worked my way through college as an apprentice and got my NYC license after I graduated.
My career took a different turn, but there's no rule saying you can't do both.
Plus, I've saved myself plenty of money in my own home.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)the feeling of offense that a billionaire should be suggesting a future for any of the rest of us, I also need to point out:
I went to college. The average salary for a plumber in my area is about the same as mine, after working in my profession for 25 years. They, though, didn't have the student loan burden I did.
Kaleva
(36,294 posts)and so on are all very good trades to get into. Many community colleges offer affordable 1 and 2 year programs in such fields.
WestCoastLib
(442 posts)Not everyone should go to college. Especially not right of of high school. There are really only a handful of bachelor's degrees that are worth the debt you are likely to incur. If you aren't interested in any of those? Don't go, or at least hold of for awhile until you decide that maybe you are interested in one of those.
The working world has changed long ago. Look up the statistics, people with a 2 year degree from a technical school earn more on average than people with a bachelor's degree.
4 year colleges are simply not worth the cost for many people. If you have a sociology degree or some other liberal arts degree, why spend the money? An employer won't value it over somebody with a few years of working experience when you are trying to get a job.
RobinA
(9,888 posts)to completely agree with this billionaire, and I've been saying this for years. Why does everybody think they have to be a hedge fund manager? Some people are not made to be hedge fund managers, and even some who are might actually be happier doing something useful. My own plumber retired to his house in the mountains. Which he can afford in part because he made decent money as a plumber and in part because he doesn't have to pay someone else an arm and a leg to maintain it.
I had a job once working with families, many of them single mother homes. I had one woman who was going to school to be an electrician. Most of the women I workerd with wanted to go to the community college to get a degree in child care. Child care, which pays less than nothing. I hope this electrician lady made it, because I felt she had a good idea learning a trade. She was definitely thinking outside the box.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Youth should receive a college education if that's what they want. No reason they can't go on to be plumbers or work in any other job. For being the richest country in the world we sure do a shitty job educating one another.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)People talking about crazy income for plumbers are talking out of their ass or otherwise they have some kind of confirmation bias.You have a small number of plumbers who are highly qualified in metropolitan areas who make large amounts of money but they are the exception.
WestCoastLib
(442 posts)That's what people are talking about
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)That is not a huge difference, certainly not large enough to substantiate claims of "making bank".
Furthermore, the median for masters degrees is 60k, and Phds and professional degrees are in the 90-100k range.
People are cherry picking some instances of plumbers making large amounts of money and applying to the whole when the stats just don't back it up. This is cherry picking data and snap judgments on gut feeling reinforced by warped anecdotes, pure and simple.
It turns out the problems with the economy go deeper than easy solutions peddled by aristocrats which would have long lasting damage to the professions they are telling people to go into. Weird, isn't it?
Brigid
(17,621 posts)And be thankful that we proles aren't breaking into their gated communities with our torches and pitchforks.
Reter
(2,188 posts)I get that you should need college to be a doctor or lawyer. You should not need it, however, to become a fire fighter, sanitation worker, correction officer, or bus driver. Many states and cities require unnecessary college degrees for jobs that should not need it, and it is pure discrimination.