Can a straight, white male liberal ever truly suffer at the hands of our culture?

[Shankapotomus]

Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 10:55 AM - Edit history (3)

I want to determine if, in general, liberals harbor any preconceived notions about liberals who are white, male and straight. One of those possible preconceptions is if the general population of liberals, democrats and progressives think straight white male liberals can truly suffer just as much as any minority group at the hands of our culture and society.

In my estimation, a lot rides on the answer because I think it effects the quality of the interaction straight white male liberals can expect from other liberals but also their ability to have their suffering (if indeed they can suffer) addressed.

Edit: I just want to add that this thread is not even intended to call attention to white, male straight "issues" nor take attention away from the LBGT, women or minority communities and issues. It's intention is to determine if there is any social consequence to being a white, straight male liberal interacting with the liberal community.

P.S. I will bump this for the afternoon (12:00 EST) and after dinner (7:00 EST) crowd to make sure we get a good sample of Duers. And then I'll comment on the results. Maybe I'll let it go for a few days to get a good sample from all the times zones, as well.

25 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	A white straight male liberal CAN truly suffer just as much as a member of a minority group at the hands of our society.
	19 (76%)
	A white straight male liberal CANNOT truly suffer just as much as a member of a minority group at the hands of our society.
	6 (24%)
	3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[djean111]

1. Depends on how much money he has. n/t

[Shankapotomus]

8. Here's a curve ball for you

What if they are rich but disabled? And discriminated against because they are disabled?

[djean111]

10. Well, IMO, almost all disabled people are discriminated against, no matter what demographic.

A rich person can deal with the physical effects of discrimination a bit better, and, of course, rich people do have their sycophants and can hire help.
So they can deal better, except for the mental aspect of feeling bad because of discrimination.

[Shankapotomus]

13. How can they deal better with discrimination?

If you're scorned and rejected because you're disabled, you're scorned and rejected because you're disabled. Having money is not going to change that. Money may let you deal with life better but it has no effect on discrimination. Discrimination based on disability can leave a rich person just as alone as a poor disabled person. In fact, there are a lot of poor and able people who aren't alone.

[djean111]

21. I thought that is what I said, really. A rich person can deal with the "physical" stuff, like

getting around, good doctors and therapy and equipment, but still has to deal with the emotional side of things.

[hifiguy]

82. Indeed. See my posts #49 and #72 downthread.

[brush]

102. That's a little off topic isn't it?

No one here is in favor of discriminating against disabled people but that's not quite the question posed.

IMO, straight, white male liberals always have the option of keeping their politics to themselves and thus easily avoid being discriminated against on most fronts.

Who can deny that in our society everything is set up for straight, white males to succeed.

After all, straight, white males did the setting up over the centuries of this country's existence to give themselves huge advantages over everyone else — Native Americans, blacks, browns, women, Asians, gays — it's not even in dispute, the question answers itself.

[Shankapotomus]

105. Yes but not if you're a straight, white, male

with other problems. White society will spit you out, reject you, ignore you, abuse you, exploit you, just as easily as anyone else if you don't fit in, if you don't tow the line, if you don't kiss the ring.

[brush]

106. That's what I mean about having the option of "keeping his politics to himself"

I took the question your OP posed literally. Unlike blacks, browns, Native Americans, women and most gays, straight white liberal males can, if they choose, circulate among the staunchest right wing baggers without a problem to their advantage.

Remember Jimmy Carter's grandson is the one who recorded Romney's 47% comments without being detected because he was a straight, white male (actually we dems if we are smart, can utilize our straight, white liberal male compatriots to infiltrate bagger circles).

Addiction, abuse, disability, financial setbacks, etc. can happen to everyone of course, including straight, white males, but that's not what the polled was set up to address.

[WhiteAndNerdy]

2. No demographic group is immune to suffering --

-- or exempt from the possibility of suffering injustice at the hands of society. There are many circumstances that can result in a person being marginalized and not fully integrated into their community, like disabilities, chronic physical and mental health issues, belonging to a marginalized ethnic group, being poor or coming from a poor family, having been a victim of abuse either in childhood or as an adult, being a woman in a sexist society, etc., and all of those things can happen to straight, white liberals. Or coming into contact with the wrong cop at the wrong time -- I'm a white woman, and I was victimized by a cop, and so was my white father.

[Shankapotomus]

4. I intentionally left out those other labels

to see if someone would catch that and you did. Good post.

Note: I updated the poll with "male" to make it even more specific.

[WhiteAndNerdy]

5. Thanks.

Yeah, I just saw the word "male" in your subject line & wondered if I'd missed it the first time!

[amandabeech]

76. One of my uncles had terrible problems with alcohol, and his problems were well known thoughout

the small community where he lived. He was one of a small group of "town drunks."

He worked on the family farm when he was sober, or relatively so, and lived in the farm house with his Mom, and on the weekends, his sober brother. So he had a roof over his head and plain food in his stomach--when he could eat.

He went into rehab so many times at a state-owned dry out hospital, but he just couldn't stay sober. He died an early alcohol-related death. Thank heavens he didn't take anyone with him, and left no wife or children.

His Celtic and Scandinavian heritage did not override his disease, and there is no way that I can think of him as being privileged.

[WhiteAndNerdy]

91. I'm sorry about your uncle. :(

Addiction is a horrible, horrible thing. I have friends and relatives who have had alcohol & drug problems. I consider them to be disabilities, and they absolutely wipe out any privilege someone might have in other ways.

[amandabeech]

92. Thank you!

I'm sorry about your friends and relatives, too.

[Smarmie Doofus]

3. I'll pass. I generally ignore the ID politics threads.

(And NO , I'm not a "straight white male"; I pass them because they're almost always boring and redundant.)

This part of your proposition is unquestionably true:


>>>> in general, liberals harbor any preconceived notions about liberals who are white, male and straight.>>>

And it's hard to imagine anyone who's reached the age of reason ( "Oooooh!!! Agism!!!) denying something so self-evidently true.

[Eleanors38]

17. I pass as well, and am a LESWIM. These discussions

usually end in people becoming LESWIRMs.

[brush]

104. What does that mean? nt

[Eleanors38]

109. LESWIRM: Liberal Straight White Racist Male -- a common

catch-all expression used by some "identity groups" to disparage progressives not like themselves. Used mainly in the 70s, 80s & 90s when those groups had more credibility. I conjured an acronym for it.

[Prophet 451]

6. bookmark for self n/t

[whistler162]

7. You forgot right handed

[UglyGreed]

9. I'm a straight white male

but I'm disabled. I feel my disability has made me a better person in the fact I can understand struggle and longing to be accepted. I can not truly know the struggles of others and I do not dare to compare my problems to other people's problems. For example I don't have the fear of my son getting shot down because of his skin tone, but I can have empathy for those who do have this fear. I don't know if this answers your question but I tried, I hope this does not offend anyone.

[Shankapotomus]

14. Couldn't have been a better reply

I was hoping people would see past the labels of "white", "male" and "straight" and you did.

[UglyGreed]

19. Good I'm glad

I feel empathy is a very important tool. IMO all of us should use it much more often.

[Tom Rinaldo]

11. Stupid poll, sorry. Way too vague. Ever? That's an automatic Yes

[Shankapotomus]

15. I intentionally made it easy

to root out the people for whom "white', 'male" and "straight" are trigger words.

[cali]

12. Of course. How ridiculous is it to posit: "if indeed they can suffer"

how about a straight white male who has been abused growing up? Or a straight white male who is mentally ill?

[Shankapotomus]

16. You saw through my simple ruse

But you're an old pro, cali.

And wouldn't concluding they couldn't suffer just as much as anybody else while they were suffering just be heaping more abuse on them? For some liberals this is not as clear cut an answer as for you and I.

[surrealAmerican]

18. Of course, but they are statistically less likely to do so than ...

... a non-white, female, and/or gay person. (I don't see how being liberal is any protection against mal-treatment.)

Almost anyone can "suffer at the hands of our culture", but the deck really is stacked against some more than others.

[AngryAmish]

20. Are they cis or trans?

Also, are they neurotypical?

[Shankapotomus]

22. They could be

They could also be disabled, physically and/or mentally abused, etc.

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. how about a straight, white liberal male who also suffers a physical or mental disability?

Or perhaps one who has lost all that he has due to some misfortune such as illness in his family or some other reason?

Or a straight, white liberal male who has fallen into some other injustice or misfortune and has no way out?

One might argue that a woman or a minority group member or a gay person might still have it worse. On average that might be the case - but there is still plenty of room in the human condition for victimization for even the straightest, whitest and most liberal male.

[Shankapotomus]

24. One could even argue,

whatever your label or group, people become liberals because they've suffered.

And if they can't come to the liberal community (as others can) with their societal issues looking for support without being told your issues are somehow lesser and less deserving of attention because "you are this" and "others who are not that are suffering worse", what really is the point for them?

[gollygee]

25. Your question indicates how much you don't understand this issue.

Of course, but the issue is that if they suffer, it will not be because they are white, straight, or male. It will be despite that.

[Shankapotomus]

27. My question was merely posed

to determine if those three attributes of being "white", "straight" and "male" prevented anyone else from seeing the suffering of anyone who fits those labels. I wasn't saying they suffer because they are white, straight or male.

However, if those three labels influence anyone's ability to recognize someone's suffering or the legitimacy of their pain, I would say, in that case, people can indeed suffer further because of those labels.

[gollygee]

28. Oh, then this is a strawman

as no one has ever said that straight white men are incapable of suffering.

[Shankapotomus]

31. Whoops

I meant to type:

"I wasn't saying they suffer because they are white, straight or male. "

[JustAnotherGen]

26. On your edit

It's intention is to determine if there is any social consequence to being a white, straight male liberal interacting with the liberal community.


But in the first paragraph - and your polls - you were talking about society - America at large. Correct?

It's kind of confusing.

I would also need to define what 'suffering' is.

A straight white male born on 1st base absolutely CAN suffer in America - but his suffering comes at the hands of other straight white men born on 2nd, short stop, third, and half way to home.

It doesn't come at the hands of the 'others'.

[Shankapotomus]

29. Right

The question was about if they can suffer at the hands of America as a whole but I was specifically addressing the question to the liberal community.

I also agree with you, white, straight, males can suffer abuse from other white, straight males. But if other liberal groups don't recognize that suffering and injustice, it is magnified through denial.

[JustAnotherGen]

34. Or do they magnify it

Through their OWN denial.

I was on the DU facebook page last week and encountered a mean, vile, angry white Republican male who was ranting and raving about mexicans, obamacare, welfare queens - you name it.

Guy didn't have two nickels to rub together and his blaming his shit on EVERYONE but the straight, white, males who are REALLY fucking him over.

Know what I mean?

White straight males need to get out of their own way and start hitting back at those who are the ones taking things from them and knocking them own. And you know what? That person who is doing that? It ain't me.

[Shankapotomus]

37. But I'm not talking about Conservative white, straight, males

I'm talking about Liberal white, straight, males who know who is responsible.

This thread is about Liberal white, straight, males but do you see how easily you slipped into identifying them with Conservative, white, straight, males? This is what I'm talking about.

We are not Conservative, white, straight, males perpetuating the suffering of women, gays and minorities. We are Liberals.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. And as liberal white men

You DO blame it on the straight, white men - very often religious and on the right - who overwhelmingly voted against the interests of YOU - correct?

I mean - you aren't blaming it on the others - right?

^I KNOW you aren't. ^

That's the key thing -

If they could just frame it as - we know who our enemy is and for example - it's not a hispanic jewish gay man . . . You could gain sympathy.

But it's not being framed in a way that man who sits in the 'other' categories can understand - let alone a woman who interstects the 'others' in any way shape or form.

We need you to speak to us in a language we can understand. And we also need you to provide us with solutions to your problems as you see them. I think what you encounter is 'I can intersect with xyz - but I can't see your issue'.

That's the burden of the straight white liberal man. We can't do your work for you. We can't communicate for you.

You have to boot strap on that one and explain it to us.


And re this:

This thread is about Liberal white, straight, males but do you see how easily you slipped into identifying them with Conservative, white, straight, males? This is what I'm talking about.

You betcha I did.

Because THOSE are the people hurting you. This hear high yella gal in NJ married to a straight white Unitarian male - she's not the one who can help you. I didn't do it to you. I don't have the power to. I don't have a voice.

[Shankapotomus]

40. I agree

We all have our own problems to contend with and, if we don't have the resources or capabilities to help each other, we should at least not make it worse for each other.

I don't know of any Liberal, white, straight, males who don't know conservatives and Republicans are the enemy of the LBGT, women's and minority communities.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. But they are also your enemy

[JustAnotherGen]

61. Coming back to say - I've enjoyed this convo with you

Unfortunately there are a few of us here who are targets for not towing the line - and being good little negros DU - and if I continue I might get a hide. So PM if you want to have the discussion in the future.

Sorry - just got a heads up on something re this thread.

[Shankapotomus]

63. Not sure who at DU is expecting that of you

But that is for another thread. It's unacceptable if it's occurring, though.

I'm always glad for a healthy discussion. I know how if feels to get a hide and I wouldn't want one of my threads to be the cause of someone's censorship at DU.

[JustAnotherGen]

65. I hope everyone reads this thread and takes away one key point you made

We gotta stick together.

[AverageJoe90]

51. "It doesn't come at the hands of the 'others'." Yes it can, sadly.

No group is immune to being victimized by (personal) racism and/or other bigotries, and no group is immune to having individuals *guilty* of said bigotries. Simple, right? SMH.

[JustAnotherGen]

60. Society wide - it doesn't -

There are very few 'others' who are billionaires pulling all the strings and inflicting pain on everyone else.

Sorry Joe -but keep smacking your head. Because you just can't name lots and lots of 'other' billions and millions who have that kind of POWER and INFLUENCE in America.

There's a reason why Dick Cheney gets away with the shit he does -and he is far more of a danger to you average white liberal men than some black kid in the 5th grade who called you a derogatory name.

For f*cks sakes!

[AverageJoe90]

69. I don't deny the vast influence of the corrupt .1% at all, btw.

There's a reason why Dick Cheney gets away with the shit he does -and he is far more of a danger to you average white liberal men than some black kid in the 5th grade who called you a derogatory name.

I think you misread what I wrote: I actually don't disagree with this, and did not argue otherwise, or even implied such.

[bettyellen]

110. Boo fucking YA.

[RedCappedBandit]

30. Given your edit, those poll options make absolutely no sense. nt

[Shankapotomus]

32. perhaps this reply to a similar question

will answer yours:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5810510

[Sheldon Cooper]

33. Who exactly are you trying to catch out with this poll?

[Shankapotomus]

35. I don't know

You tell me, Sheldon.

[Shankapotomus]

38. Btw,

Please consider participating in my poll. I would be interested in knowing on which side you fall.

[snooper2]

36. Is this a scientific poll? LOL

[hifiguy]

54. Well, it is on the intertubes,

and that's pretty sciency.

[11 Bravo]

41. Let's ask Jack and Bobby Kennedy. Oh … wait ...

Never mind.

[Shankapotomus]

42. yeah, but they were rich so

their suffering doesn't count.



See post #1.

[Shankapotomus]

44. Bump

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. they can suffer as much but not because of systematic oppression

a straight white male with no job and cancer is definitely suffering more than me. However, his suffering isn't the sort of systematic oppression of race and gender and sexual orientation.

[AverageJoe90]

53. That much is true, at least.

Although if we leave out suffering at the *personal* level, as some do, is that really taking everything into account? Since this is part of the topic, let's not forget that, on that level at least, white folks can be the victims of racism as much as anyone, and men *can* occasionally be hurt by intrapersonal sexism, etc.; this isn't to say, at all, that structuralized forms of these things don't exist, because they do.....but, again, just so we're clear on what my point is, does it really do us any good to leave out the intrapersonal aspects of these problems?

[YoungDemCA]

67. "White folks can be the victims of racism as much as anyone..."

[AverageJoe90]

70. You may want to re-read what I said in context....no offense.

For the benefit of those genuinely confused, however, in case I didn't make this 100% clear in that particular reply(though I did elsewhere), anyone can be a potential victim of bigotry on the intrapersonal, or "street" level, as it were.

[XemaSab]

93. Must be hard to have most of your posts misunderstood

[Recursion]

46. Is the "ability" to suffer somehow important?

I'm pretty sure all people can suffer at all times.

A straight white cis-male who suffers (and they do) can pick himself up much more quickly, because the culture assumes that suffering was extrinsic to him.

[dawg]

47. Of course.

Our society favors straight white males. But there is more to every individual than just race, gender, and orientation.

Some other aspect of the individual straight, white male - like being very overweight for example - could result in him being terribly mistreated and oppressed by society.

[KamaAina]

48. Yes, if he has a disability

We're othered just as much as women, minorities and LGBT folks.

[hifiguy]

49. Given certain conditions, yes indeed

Last edited Thu Nov 13, 2014, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)

and I am walking, talking proof.

I am a middle-aged straight, white, liberal (democratic socialist, actually) male. Though I dropped out of high school at 16, in my mid-20s I enrolled at, and graduated with all the honors I could win from, my excellent midwestern state university and went on to a well-known Ivy League law school where the FLOTUS and I were in the same graduating class. No shit.

I have never been able to get and hold on to any job even remotely commensurate with my intelligence and education and lost my home on May 1. I have since been living in "emergency housing." I have never had any significant medical problems. I have never been arrested, in prison/jail, had any form of addiction, or any mental illness other than depression issues that have been situational in nature - caused by my particular circumstances at the time - that have (edited to delete "not&quot - that HAVE been easily and minimally medicated.

Why? Two reasons.

The biggest one is that I am Asperger's - dx'd by both a psychologist and a psychiatrist in 2005. As such I am fiercely introverted and very solitary. At every real job at which I have ever worked my work itself has been praised to the skies and I have always been let go ASAP. I am polite and professional but nearly asocial. I do not do eye contact, make small talk and just want to be left alone to do my job, which I can do very well, as the two judges I clerked for can attest to. As a therapist once told me "you're just enough off to raise most people's red flags, but only subconsciously." I don't wear well with people as I am socially awkward and, as that therapist put it "spooky" to neurotypical people. As one of the judges I clerked for put it I have "a remarkable ability to make most people feel uncomfortable" around me, without trying. People want to hire and work around others like themselves. I am assuredly not like very many others.

Secondly, class issues in many professions are enormous. Law firms are, in the long run, far more interested in who you and your parents know and are connected to than where you went to school. My best friend in law-school was a very upper-class African-American - private elementary schools, Beverly Hills High School, spoke four languages fluently, movie-star handsome, whose family had deep connections in real-estate development and the movie industry. He told me that I would have a far harder life post-law school than he was because I was born working-class - NOT middle class or upper-middle class - WORKING CLASS. He told me that "they (the decision makers in the professional world) look at me and know that even though I am a black man, I am one of them. We share a background that has nothing to do with what schools we went to. They know within five seconds you are NOT one of them and never will be." While my Asperger nature was a big factor in my winding up living the life I have the fact that I was one of the "have-nots" (who just happens to be ridiculously smart) played nearly as large a role in my failure at building a successful life.

I have seen working-class people ascend to high professional ranks but they are few and far between and are without exception highly extroverted individuals with top-level people/interaction skills. I have been told that it is easier to scale the heights in medicine and certain scientific disciplines, where ability trumps everything, but the law is an intensely social procession in which you have to aggressively sell yourself, which I cannot do. I fit into that world like a mermaid in a chorus line.

It's not easy, but even a well-educated straight white liberal male can wind up on the bottom of society.

[Shankapotomus]

72. What are your thoughts on the possibility

your extreme introversion contributed to an incorrect Asperger's diagnosis? Not to downplay your diagnosis but I would venture to guess that people with perfectly harmless preferences for more cerebral pursuits could get misdiagnosed with Asperger's. No? I know in my own life there have been transitions between times when I was more successfully gregarious to times where I was much more introverted to the point where I lost a lot of my abilities to navigate the social spectrum with ease and confidence. But I attribute that more to lack of interest than any inherent inability.

Either way, I hope you are able to transition out of emergency housing to a better setting soon.

[hifiguy]

77. The counselor who first diagnosed me

had me take a bunch of tests and I scored highly on all the Asperger's metrics. What cinched the case was when I told her I live exclusively in my own head - it's almost impossible for me to tell what others are thinking or feeling. I also don't have strong emotional reactions to things that aren't mediated - I don't get upset at things that happen in real life but external experiences - movies, books, music, etc - stir strong emotional responses in me. A psychiatrist reviewed them and concurred with her conclusions. I was born "gifted" and the first counselor explained giftedness and Asperger's can reinforce and mask each other, and I have always had obsessive interests - I memorized baseball statistics and car models when I was a wee lad. I can be very outgoing but only with people who share common interests. I am a motor-mouth when with other musicians, hi-fi nerds, comic book geeks (back in the day) but just have nothing to say to people I don't share interests with. I am basically Data and have no problem with the Geordis of my world.

Law school was a bit different - sharing the common experience is a lot like being in the Army together. There's always something to talk about in the first instance and a number of friendships built from that shared experience as other people and I learned more about each other. I tended to gravitate towards the intellectually curious and quirkier personalities, of which there a fair number at an elite grad school.

[Shankapotomus]

78. Could it be you just have more advanced activity preferences

than others?

Also people known for their wisdom, like Buddhist monks, are also known not to get overly dramatic about real life tragedy. One of the supposed lessons of higher wisdom being to accept that "the glass is already broken." We all know about death so why be shocked and surprised when it happens?

No doubt you may suffer from lack of access to intellectual equals (which can be damaging), as a lot of the gifted can, but I would hesitate to conclude it was because you were born, in a way, broken. I think it is a tremendous gift to have higher interests that are not typical of the majority of people.

[hifiguy]

108. Maybe, but it makes it very hard to get along in a shallow society.

My latest obsession is theoretical physics and cosmology, which I have had an abiding but unpursued interest in since Sagan's Cosmos. If I had been with the math gene, like so many people on the spectrum, I certainly would have become an astrophysicist, theoretical physicist or cosmologist. Unfortunately maths are Greek to me, though I can get my head around the concepts of those disciplines.

[Shankapotomus]

111. Your interests seem similiar to mine

I have been able to put my existing disappointments of personal achievement into perspective through borrowing Buddhist ideas here and there. The way I see it is the more specialized and refined your interests become, it is perfectly natural that people who share those interests to the depth you do will be few and far between. I also really questioned what it was I wanted from life and came to the realization that if I really wanted the social life with lots of friends and parties I would have had it already. There is no secret to getting that. The people who have that generally acquire it by just doing what they do instinctively. They are just as susceptible to disappointments as someone with more academic interests, maybe more so because very often they can't identify what ails them or how to fix it.

I apply the same thinking toward upward momentum. If I really wanted all the degrees in science, I would have had them by now. And I'm perfectly happy where I am. I can pursue my interest in science when and as I see fit, not out of an obligation because it's homework or a job. So I don't worry about what I'm not, where I am or what I don't have. I just think how I can make myself content or happy today. As such I am not impressed with titles or degrees. Personal wisdom is not dependent on the grade someone else gives you. Contentment is not handed out at a university. All the titles and achievements are just trappings for the ego that the ego wants, that your parents want you to have, that your partner wants you to have because it fits some story they have in their head. Some people only see your title and conclude this person is smart and that person is not smart. How do you know they're not smart? And society tells us we should want these titles and makes us feel bad that we don't have them. But self-contentment is really about moment to moment. It's not about jumping through artificial hoops society sets up for us that only postpone the day we realize we only need to make ourselves content to be happy. I call it the Happiness Equation. The more people you have to please, the more variables there are to your Happiness Equation. The more variables, the more complex your equation.

[AverageJoe90]

50. Most liberals do not, hold any (negative) preconceived notions against SWMs, as far as I can tell.

Some of those on our side who do, however, can, unfortunately, be quite vocal about that, and this has caused a number of problems in the recent past, including here on DU. And when it does happen, we need to do our best to educate those people(which isn't always easy). Especially in this critical time where we still face an uncertain future.

[XemaSab]

94. And such as?

n/t

[Kali]

113. ...

[TBF]

52. Poverty is the big equalizer

You'll find that very wealthy folks get treated better (mostly - still have some issues with driving or shopping while black). But anyone who is obviously poor is treated like crap in this country - and that very much includes white males.

[Avalux]

55. Socioeconomic status is a huge factor, and you've ignored it.

I don't care what your sex, skin color or political views are, if you're poor, you suffer at the hands of our culture.

[JI7]

56. i'm not really understanding , Right Wing racists can suffer also, everyone can suffer in this

society.

[Erose999]

59. They're certainly abused by the people they elect to represent them.

[Erose999]

57. Being white, straight, and male you're sometimes eyed with... not necessarily suspicion, but

definitely caution when interacting with groups of minorities, at least at first. If I were to attend a conference on militant feminism or something I might get some strange looks initially even though I fully support their agenda.

[Louisiana1976]

58. Even a straight white liberal male will suffer under a Republican or Third Way regime.

[Rex]

62. Everyone will suffer if we let investment bankers call the shots.

None of us have billions of dollars to buy politicians. Yet the .01% can buy the people that buy politicians. They have the billions.

[Kalidurga]

64. No this is a straight up No

It is not that I don't think that a straight white male can never be wronged, clearly anyone can be a victim. This male may have been abused as a child, might be poor, might be neurotypical, oh hey that's my brother. I know for a fact he has suffered a lot and on top of that became addicted to drugs because of how he grew up.

So, why say no? Simple really. Straight people are rarely if ever discriminated against for being straight. White people are rarely if ever discriminated against for being white. Males are rarely if ever discriminated against for being male.

The flip side is gay people and other people with different orientations are discriminated against just for that alone, some murdered. POC are discriminated against and historically and up to the present time are murdered for the sole reason of not being white. And women are several times more likely suffer from discrimination for not being male. Not to mention all these groups are more likely to be a crime statistic.

So, bottom line is anyone can have a crappy childhood, grow up and use drugs, be neuro atypical, have a disability, etc...They will suffer. But, if they are straight white males it won't be because they are straight white males.

[StevieM]

80. Try telling that to all the straight white males who were forced to become birth fathers without

their consent.

Men who want to keep their children are routinely denied that right. The adoption industry does not care if the baby has a father who wants to raise it. They will tell any lie they have to in order to facilitate an adoption. They lie to the courts as easily as they breathe. They place the child with prospective adoptive parents and then drag the case on for years. Then they claim that the father didn't show interest or a willingness to support the baby, knowing full well that this was not the case.

Gay men can get a woman pregnant, but it happens far less often than with straight men. A woman's signature is always needed on the adoption papers. And black babies are not targeted as relentlessly by the adoption industry, which has a disgusting practice of pricing babies by race and ethnicity--the blonder, the better. Black women are far less likely to be pressured into giving up their child by their church, family or friends. (The relinquishment rate is far lower among African-Americans, which is a good thing IMO).

To be clear, I fully recognize that women are the primary victims of coercion when it comes to adoption.

But the rights of straight white men--and their children--are often denied when it comes to parenting. I'm not even talking about custody. I am talking about involuntary TPRs (termination of parental rights) and a man's children being raised by genetic strangers without his permission.

[Kalidurga]

87. That's a whole nuther issue

And it has more to do with patriarchy than white men being discriminated against because they are men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Exactly.

Too many liberals extrapolate generalized white privilege (a real thing) or generalized male privilege (not a real thing) with "playing life at the lowest difficulty setting" and thus invalidating the barriers that individual white men may face.

We then act surprised validated when they vote for others.

And if we really believe that everyone's suffering should be mitigated, we wouldn't limit this discussion to liberals.

[lpbk2713]

68. Many people hold all homeless people at the same level of contempt.

They don't even glance at them long enough to notice a color or anything else.

[HereSince1628]

71. Sure a shit. He just needs a mental disorder.

[Shankapotomus]

74. If that's the way you conduct yourself on a discussion board

I'm not even going to ask why.

[uppityperson]

75. Of course an individual can. That does not mean there are no institutionalized biases though.

If your question is "can A", then of course it is yes.

If you question is can "straight white male liberals can truly suffer just as much as any minority group at the hands of our culture and society", then no.

[Shankapotomus]

81. It is "can A" with a caveat

And that caveat is if there is a substantial percentage of people who think a white, straight, male can't ever suffer as much as anyone else and therefore has no right to a public consideration of that injustice.

Happily I can say (so far) only 14% at DU actually believe that.

[randys1]

79. Here was your question

A white straight male liberal CAN truly suffer just as much as a member of a minority group at the hands of our society

.


If you had not put in "just as much" I might have just skipped this entirely, but the answer is NO, there is NO way the person you describe can suffer from discrimination or injustice JUST AS MUCH as any minority group including Gay people of any color or political ideology.

Not EVER, unless you have some extremely rare example for me, otherwise absolutely not.

[Shankapotomus]

83. What if they are disabled?

Aren't all groups - white, African American, straight, gay, lesbian, men, women - all capable of discriminating against the disabled?

That's a lot of discrimination coming at you from a myriad of groups....not just the group that represents your opposite... but all of them.

[randys1]

84. Still not the same and it isn't based on a history of lynching you for being disabled etc

You have to take into account so much when you discuss what it means to be a Black person in America.

There simply is nothing to compare to it

And I am speaking from a historical and observational viewpoint, being that I am white.

[Shankapotomus]

85. No doubt

No disagreement there.

Of course, the disabled are a special case as they have been typically seen as not valuable enough to be exploited or enough of a threat to be suppressed. So you are usually not going to see the kind of violence you see used against other groups. What you see is neglect, shunning, avoidance, alienation, ignorance, fear, isolation, etc. So it's kind of difficult to make a fair comparison.

[randys1]

86. You know what makes me angry now that you bring it up, these ADA lawyers

who go out of their way to create problems for places where no claim is being filed other than them looking for someone to USE to do it.

NOT because I dont want them to enforce ADA but what happens, and I have seen this, is it pisses non handicap people off and they blame the handicap people.

In one case a restaurant owner decided to just shut down and in another the owner decided to shut down and go into politics as a rightwinger doing tremendous harm, of course.

Now there may be no other way to enforce ADA, but it just seems to me they need a better PR system.

I am open to any info on this and you can easily change my mind, because like with Women and minorities and Gay folk, since I am not any of these I ALWAYS defer to their position , if you know what I mean.

Are you disabled?

[Shankapotomus]

88. I don't have an inclination to influence anyone's opinion on this

I realize all liberals here, despite our disagreements, hold their positions because they truly believe that is the way to help people.

I also don't really want to reveal whether I have a disability or not, as it might influence the poll.

I happen to know one person who was born disabled due to a drug and had every right to sue but never did.

[randys1]

89. Cool, I only asked because I think my problem with these ADA lawyers may be wrongheaded

but I need more info

[LostInAnomie]

90. Sure

Since we are talking about the liberal community (per you edit). Check out tumblr sometime. #killwhites, #killallmen, #killcis, #ihatewhitepeople, and any variation of the theme is usually trending over there. That's online though, so I'm sure most people on here will say it doesn't count.

I'd say the "progressive stack" that was used during OWS was pretty discriminatory too.

[kwassa]

95. Of course 76% of white liberal males think they can suffer as much as anyone else.

who is shocked by this bit of self-regard?

[betsuni]

96. I do not understand.

The OP says: The question is, do liberals harbor preconceived ideas about straight, white, liberal men. For example, can these men suffer just as much as any minority group at the hands of culture and society, because this affects the social consequence of how their suffering is addressed.

I have no idea what this means. I need examples or something.

[Shankapotomus]

99. Example of why this question is important

If you are a straight, white, male liberal and you come to the liberal community with an injustice being perpetrated upon you, is the fact that you are a straight, white, male going to impact the level of support you get from the liberal community?

If in their estimation you as a liberal white, straight, male individual (for any reason) can never suffer as much as an individual liberal who isn't a white, straight or male, do your problems even matter at that point?

And if your issues aren't big enough to matter to the liberal community (because there is always a minority, woman or gay person who has it worse), does that mean the liberal community is tone deaf for you?

I mean this on an individual level, not as a group. And if the injustice you are being targeted with is coming from a demographic that is usually the target of persecution themselves, is your complaint even going to be believed much less garner sympathy.

In my experience the answer is no. And I can base that upon my own history.

When I look back at my life I notice something. I notice a pattern of unaddressed abuse not only at the hands of white, straight, males but from women, gays and African Americans.

That doesn't mean on average these groups don't have it worse. They do. And as a liberal I firmly believe they do. But that doesn't mean in specific cases, a member of another demographic can't have it just as bad.

I haven't done anything to any of the members of these groups and yet throughout my life I have been:

- Groped by a strange woman in public

- physically attacked by a large African American woman for doing my job and called a "bitch"

- approached in unwanted or unsolicited sexually suggestive ways by strange women numerous times

- had false rumors spread about me on numerous occasions by women (apparently I'm gay because I have to get to know a woman before I will respond to her advances)

- had a woman co-worker I didn't know approach me for the first time talking about Viagra in a cryptic manner

- had two female cousins on separate occassions make passes at me (creepy) one got in the guest bed with me when she had a perfectly good bed to herself

- have been ostracized by a gay co-worker because apparently he didn't want to be seen with a straight male

- groped sexually (which is putting it mildly) while in the establishment of a gay business owner

- referred to as "toots" by a white male gas station attendant (I don't know what that was all about)

- accused of having my "period" by a white, male supervisor when I tried to quit a job

And yet when I get on DU (and for the past 7-8 years) I only talk about the issues effecting women, the LBGT community and minorities.

The one time I mention the issues effecting me personally, I am shouted down and called a misogynist or accused of trying to present a false equivalency .

So in my mind this poll was necessary to find out if someone in my demographic was only really welcomed in the current liberal community if we didn't talk about our own problems

[kwassa]

100. What do you think your issue is?

You seem to be getting sexually harassed by women and gay men. Why do you think this is? Are you unusually attractive?

How has this harassment affected your life? Has it affected your interpersonal relationships in any way?

Is this abuse frequent or infrequent, stretched out over many years?

[Shankapotomus]

101. I have other issues that complicate the matter

I have one of those invisible disabilities (I prefer to keep private) so, in such a weird way, I guess I can be described as attractive and unattractive at the same time and depending on how little or much you know about me. So I sort of get subjected to both sides of the fortune coin, I guess. But nobody ever likes to say they are unusually attractive. I don't think I am. I think we just put too much importance on appearance as a society.

The point I'm trying to make is everyone is a special case and someone's issues shouldn't be dismissed or sidetracked into debates of false equivalency just because they don't fit into a certain demographic. Their issues can still be real. If someone is an expressed liberal, that is, one of us, and they say they are suffering or have a social issue, we should take their word for it. We can determine the degree of injustice later.

As far as effecting my life. I would say it all has effected my life and made me make choices I otherwise would not have made. It's made me seek a different path than I otherwise would have where I could get away from all that nonsense. But I was smart and caught on early so I was able to create an alternate life that is more manageable and comfortable. But it's not my first choice of a life.

[kwassa]

107. Everyone is a special case, but everyone is also part of a group.

The point I'm trying to make is everyone is a special case and someone's issues shouldn't be dismissed or sidetracked into debates of false equivalency just because they don't fit into a certain demographic. Their issues can still be real. If someone is an expressed liberal, that is, one of us, and they say they are suffering or have a social issue, we should take their word for it. We can determine the degree of injustice later.

I agree, mostly.

No one's unique problems should be dismissed because of their demographic. However, the point often made in this forum, and it is a true situation, is that you, with your white liberal male identification, will probably be treated better than a female or a person of color that has the exact same disibility that you have. That's all.

This is not said to minimize your issues.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. No

because our culture doesn't have hands.

[IdiocracyTheNewNorm]

98. Not really, in my life experience when a bad event happens other opportunities

present themselves to white males first before just about everyone else.

The door of opportunity opens first for white males, rightly or wrongly, it is just the way it is in America today.

[Tsiyu]

114. Poverty goes hand in hand with racism to demean and degrade all of us

The justice, banking, health and insurance systems can screw over a white liberal guy just as easily as anyone.

Hope you got what you were looking for.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Do you mean, can being a straight white male be in itself disadvantageous, or can straight white

males be disadvantaged for other reasons?

As regards the first, not commonly in wider society, though there may be specific situations in which being male can be associated with some social problems (e.g. sometimes in professions such as nursing or primary school teaching where males are in the minority and may be stereotyped or isolated). But not generally on the level of the problems caused by racism, misogyny or homophobia for example.

As regards the second, of course white straight males may nevertheless experience discrimination and disadvantage for other reasons: e.g. social class, poverty, illness, disability. Also, not all racism is based on skin colour - e.g. against Irish; Jews; immigrants who may be white (there is a lot of current prejudice in Britain against East Europaean immigrants).

However, those who claim that white straight males are endangered or suffer discrimination as a group are wrong, and generally bigoted.