Let's say that our policies towards Ukraine/Russia and Syria/Iraq are successful.

[CJCRANE]

How does that look and what will happen afterwards?

Let's say the sanctions take down the Russian economy and Putin is ousted. What then?

Add also that Assad is ousted. What then?

How will it pan out?

Will we get the same results as in Iraq the first time, and Libya?

Or will we get prosperous liberal democracies?

[PDJane]

1. What makes you think that the US wants prosperous, liberal democracies?

The US itself isn't a prosperous, liberal democracy. Apparently, neither is Canada at this point. Harper is, according to Wikileaks, a CIA plant. That doesn't surprise me, either.

So........when they destroy prosperous, liberal democracies, what's left?

[CJCRANE]

2. Not much.

That's why I'm dumbfounded by DUers cheering on the attempted destruction of the Russian economy.

I agree with everything they say about Putin (except I don't agree that he's the new Hitler). But what will come after him?

Annd what will come after Assad?

Let's look at Saddam, Gadaffi and Mubarak. What happened to the promised liberal democracies in those countries once they were removed?

What happened to *our* liberal democracies and prosperous middle clasess in the west?

It's all evaporating before our eyes. It's madness to cheer on the forces that are doing that.

[PDJane]

3. I'm feeling nervous about the whole thing.

Especially since Canada has been taken over by the American neo-cons. Harper is a white supremacist (he founded something called the Northern Alliance), a religious fruitcake, a misogynist, and his campaign was funded by the IRI and the National Endowment for Democracy. It's been my experience that when the National Endowment for Democracy appears, democracy heads out the door in self defence.

[CJCRANE]

4. The next year is going to be interesting, that's for sure!

A few people are waking up and trying to push the truth, but the reactionary forces are pulling out all the stops to continue their agenda.

They only win when they can convince us (the masses) they are right, it's our opinions that count.

[Spazito]

5. LOL, Harper is many disgusting things but being a "CIA plant" isn't one of them...

Someone is having fun with wikileaks.

[PDJane]

8. I don't think so.

This man has been supporting every assinine thing that the US does, including domestic Islamic terrorism. It's not a surprise, really....nor is it a surprise that so many would dismiss it out of hand.

[Spazito]

9. One doesn't have to be a "CIA plant" to do asinine things...

and most asses who do asinine aren't "CIA plants".

Those who see "CIA plants" around every corner are buying into the delusional conspiracy theorists, imo.

Harper is a disgusting climate change denier, a rabidly right wing conservative and calling him a "CIA plant" does nothing to address his disgusting policies, imo, it just makes those who claim it seem foolish.

[PDJane]

11. Perhaps plant was a bit extreme.

He was, however, funded by people who don't have democracy at heart, and he's busy tearing apart the things that made Canada a country worth living in.

Do I find the CIA ties thing credible? How else would a white supremacist get into power in Canada? And, I would note, his omnibus bills are straight out of the GOP playbook.

I find it interesting. I wonder how hard it is going to be to get him out of office.....even though he has an approval rating of about 29%. Even the prison guards union is working against him. The veteran's association. It will be interesting to see if he manages to stay in power.

[Spazito]

15. He got into power by putting on a front, a moderate conservative front...

and for these reasons, imo:

The Quebec Liberal scandal twinned with some fatigue on Canadians' part made some traditional Liberal voters move their vote to the NDP, enough to really split the left vote and giving Harper and his cabal minority and then majority power with less than 40% of votes cast.

The multiparty system which splits the left into 4 while the right isn't split at all combined with the "first past the post" allocation of seats. Most multiparty systems in Europe have proportional representation systems which more fairly distribute the seats won between the parties, this often results in minority governments.

How hard it will be to get him and his party out will depend on whether voters on the left vote strategically or loyalty to party, imo. If the vote is split as it was in the last election, Harper will win again.

His poll numbers are dropping, the Liberals' numbers are growing, it looks like the traditional Liberal voters are gravitating back to the Liberals so there is definitely hope Harper will be defeated.

[PDJane]

20. Don't forget voter suppression adn robocalls......

but none of the above tells you where the cash that got him elected came from, and that's where the IRI and the NED come in.

[Spazito]

23. Yes, voter suppression and robocalls were also part of the equation...

as to the "cash that got him elected", it's the same place the other parties did, political donors, individual donations, fundraising. As to "where the IRI and the NED come in", I have no idea what you are talking about. What is the IRI and NED?

[PDJane]

25. Ah........well.

The IRI is the International Republican Institute and NED is the National Endowment for Democracy (this is the group that tried, several times, to overthrow Hugo Chavez.).

The IRI is well known for its funding of right wing think tanks and propaganda in various places. When NED walks in, Democracy usually runs away in protest.

From the leaked document: "In addition to the campaign schools, IRI will be bringing in consultants who specialize in party renovation to discuss case studies of political parties in Germany, Spain, and Canada which successfully carried out the process"
The "party renovation" referenced in the cable is the "renovation" of Canada's indigenous Progressive Conservative Party into a Republican-inspired Conservative Party of Canada (CPC) that is largely subservient to the U.S Empire south of the border."

If nothing else that is credible; that's typical of the NED.

[Spazito]

26. It is no secret the Harper cabal have hired republican strategists as advisors...

and ties with the repub party. The Liberals have ties to the Democratic party as well in that they, too, have used Democratic strategists at times. No conspiracy theory needed.

You cite a "leaked document" but provide no link to the site nor name the site that holds that "leaked document" from which you cited. Without that, one cannot disseminate whether this is more conspiracy nonsense or has credibility, imo.

[PDJane]

27. Oh, for.............

This is a bit on NED

https://docs.google.com/a/ellisonline.ca/document/d/1yDD-KNyoluFtCVbPetL_PCb9M8ClHV8ERzCw-r8h1zE/edit

More on Harper's coup:

https://docs.google.com/a/ellisonline.ca/document/d/1NuExJcQsdNsGmRgdK3Az9Z1GB8ds9N5-MUJ4aBP6D5A/edit

Wikileaks, look at no. 13:

https://wikileaks.org/cable/2005/04/05CARACAS1049.html

There's more. Follow the links.

[Spazito]

29. Ahhh, wikileaks, no thanks...

As to ellisonline.ca, I can't find anything about the site and my anti-virus puts a ? next to the only two sites with ellisonline.ca when I do a search so I won't click on them. I was hoping for a link to something less obscure but I guess not.

I am not into conspiracy theories so I am ending my part in this discussion.

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. Yeah, who wants actual primary source documents?

[Spazito]

31. LOL, hello again...

When it comes to wikileaks, ya got me, I'm not interested.

[PDJane]

36. I'm sure that wikileaks isn't interested in you, either.

[PDJane]

35. That was an error; ellisonline is my site, and it got there because I didn't pull up the originals.

Last edited Tue Nov 18, 2014, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Once more:

http://whatsupic.com/special-usa/national-endowment5344.html

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mark-taliano/canada-war-crimes_b_6127190.html

[Maedhros]

6. In the last 25 years, have ANY of our policies of aggression and belligerence worked?

Why should we think they will work now?

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. Well, off the top of my head:

On edit: I forgot Libya. Woo hoo! Perpetual low grade civil war.

Somalia. Oh, that's funny.

Afghanistan. Record poppy crop, Taliban waiting in the wings.

Pakistan. Drones away, baby! Not sure what we're actually achieving there anymore.

Iraq. Say no more.

Yemen. How do you define success? However you do, I don't think Yemen is it.

Syria. We've been covertly arming "good rebels" for years, contributing to the mayhem. Now Obama wants to go big on that. We are managing to kill hundreds of ISIS fighters with our air war, though.

Serbia/Kosovo. We did manage to bomb the Serbs into submission, clearing the way for Albanian mobsters.

Colombia. Our billions in military aid helped the Colombian state fight the FARC to a draw, meanwhile supporting murderous rightist governments that killed thousands of innocents. Now, the world's longest civil war may finally be coming to an end.

Mexico. We've given them a few billion in military aid to fight narcos, but that same military also props up an extremely corrupt, neoliberal state. And we've wasted even more on that border security boondoggle, which has mainly succeeded in driving up prices for drugs and people coming out of Mexico.

My, we've been busy, haven't we? I've limited myself to the post-1990 era. I may have missed a few.

[stevenleser]

10. You're really going a long way to avoid condemning Russia for an unprovoked war of aggression in

Ukraine.

[PDJane]

13. What does condemning Russia have to do with it?

I might point out that the US is well known for its unprovoked wars of aggression....Viet Nam, Iraq, Iran, Argentina, Chile, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Cuba, the Philippines, Guam, Honduras, China, Haiti, Mexico, El Salvador, Laos, Cambodia....and on, and on. As I recall it, Kissinger is still wanted for war crimes in Laos and Cambodia.

Pot, meet kettle.......

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. How many of those had Putin's KGB involved?

Selective moral outrage, I suppose.

[stevenleser]

28. And once again, you are going a long way to not condemn Russia for an unprovoked war of aggression

in Ukraine.

[PDJane]

33. I condemn Russia, yes. I also condemn the US, and ISIS and Israel and Hamas.......

What the hell difference does my censure make to the long run, and who the hell cares?

I will work for those causes that I think I can fix, or that are too outrageous to tolerate. Yes, there is unprovoked aggression in the Ukraine. Yes, it would be good if it stopped. However, condemning Putin for what the US does on a regular basis is hypocritical.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. I thought our policies were --

* Get Putin the stop colonizing sovereign states

* See ISIS destroyed

You seem to be operating from a completely different set of notes.

[PDJane]

14. What your policies state and what happens are two different things.

The US supports dictatorships all over the world; democracy is really messy, you see.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. "The US supports dictatorships all over the world"

That's a poor excuse to give Putin and ISIS license to do as they please.

[PDJane]

19. Sigh. That's not the point, you know. The US has no room to point fingers.

You have a list of ex-presidents and vice presidents who should be in front of a war crimes tribunal. It means that others feel they don't have to obey laws. I will also point out that ISIS is blowback from US actions, and blowing them and theirs to smithereens isn't going to put a lid on Islamic extremism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. "The US has no room to point fingers."

Apparently you do. So what is your plan? If you say you don't / won't have one then we're back to giving Putin and ISIS license to do as they please.

I will also point out that ISIS is blowback from US actions...

Personally, I try to avoid buying into the propaganda of people who make rape and murder an integral part of their expansionist policies. ISIS is not a bunch of Iraqis fighting the US for Iraqi sovereignty, they're thugs who want a nation state of their own in which to expand the disease that is their vile ideology. They have no legitimate grievance. To say otherwise is a sucker's game.

[TheKentuckian]

24. I'm all for sending the same folks that rein us in when we go a warmongering

The 101st karma brigade and putting our own house in order and getting our own maniacal warmongers as far from power as can be forced.

ISIS is way outmatched by regional forces, if they don't like them being a turd in the punch bowl over there then they have air forces, armor, artillery, and significant well trained forces they need to deal with it and we need to get the fuck out of there.

[Nye Bevan]

17. It would be nice if Putin was replaced by a good guy,

someone whose main priority is not re-establishing the Soviet Union to the greatest extent possible and grabbing countries whenever he can get away with it.

[PDJane]

22. Yes, it would, but good guys and innocent bystanders are rather thin on the ground.

[Xolodno]

37. Putin is the result...

...of our policies during Yeltsin.

Our goal should have been for a strong but peaceful Russia.

Instead, we took a victory lap and made it job one to keep Russia weak and down....which played exactly into the fears of Russia. The populace wanted a strong leader who would stand up to US imperialism...and Putin came to power.

The sanctions aren't going to work....and never have worked. It just strengthens the resolve of the populace against a foreign nation(s) trying to dictate to them. Khaddaffi was hit with sanctions under Reagan....things fell apart for him when they were removed.

We are literally propping up Putin by trying to punish him.

[Nye Bevan]

38. What should we have done differently during Yeltsin? (nt)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. It's not the goal of sanctions to oust Putin.

The goal of sanctions is to stop Russia from interefering with Ukrainian affairs and fueling and supporting an insurgency in Eastern Ukraine.

Putin has enough genuine support in Russia that I don't see the Russian people rising up in masse against him.

[pampango]

34. In Ukraine/Russia you would have two neighboring countries who respect each other's borders

and trade with each other like most other countries in the world do with each other. It is certainly possible that you will get two prosperous democracies, although there are powerful conservative forces in each country that promote nationalism, homophobia, tradition 'family values' and the role of women, etc.