Ferguson Grand Jury: What You Need To Know

[Little Star]

GRAND JURY
The grand jury is composed of 12 people "selected at random from a fair cross-section of the citizens", according to Missouri law. The jury in this case is 75% white: Six white men, three white women, two black women and one black man. About two-thirds of Ferguson's residents are black. Mr Wilson is white.

DECISION
The grand jury will determine only whether probable cause exists to indict Mr Wilson, but will not decide whether he is guilty.
If the jury indicts him, a separate trial jury will be seated to decide whether to convict or acquit him.

http://news.sky.com/story/1375549/ferguson-grand-jury-what-you-need-to-know

I don't have high hopes with this jury being 75% white. I hope I'm wrong but I sincerely doubt it.

[morningfog]

1. I takes 9 to indict.

[Bettie]

71. And in that area

there is unlikely to be a single white person who will vote to indict.

Wilson will go back to the police department, probably with a promotion, a raise, and the certain knowledge that he can do whatever he wants to with no legal repercussions whatsoever.

[RKP5637]

2. For the majority of people in Ferguson being black, TPTB, police and the Grand Jury are

overwhelmingly white. To me, there certainly is a lack of racial equality. I'm not saying all white people are prejudice and racists, just that there is a glaring imbalance IMO for a predominately black city.

[Little Star]

3. Exactly. It surprised me to see the imbalance.

[liberal from boston]

7. Dr. Baden testifies before Michael Brown Grand Jury

Here is link to video of an informative segment Lawrence w/ Joy Reid & Lisa Bloom on Ferguson Grand Jury.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/dr-baden-testifies-before-michael-brown-grand-jury-357678659656

[hack89]

4. It is a county grand jury

And is not specific to Ferguson. I think the grand jury reflects the racial makeup of the county. And don't forget the grand jury was sworn in before the shooting.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

9. This is a good point to remember.

These folks were doing their service for a while before they started on this case.

[RKP5637]

11. Thanks! n/t

[loyalsister]

18. And you point to another problem

The larger conflict is a majority black city amid a majority white county. That demographic only emerged within the last 20 yrs. In 1990 it was 2\3 white. So, the city and county governments and policies have not yet evolved.
The shift is a result of lending biases that created a sort of reverse white flight where large numbers of African Americans were steered into Ferguson.

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. Racial make up of St. Louis County is 73% white

and Missouri is 83% white
(that actually surprised me)
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29189.html

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. The grand jury is drawn from St. Louis County, which is 70% white, 23% African American

So the Grand Jury, with 3 African Americans, roughly matches the demographics of the county.

[RKP5637]

10. Thanks! n/t

[BronxBoy]

12. From what I understand...

this is a county based grand jury not of Ferguson itself and the demographics appear to bear out what we see on the jury.

[RKP5637]

14. Thanks! n/t

[KingCharlemagne]

22. Small technical note (but important): Ferguson is but one small community

in St. Louis County. The Grand Jury here is a St. Louis County Grand Jury (not a Ferguson Grand Jury). The Grand Jury's makeup of 9 whites and 3 blacks roughly reflects the demographics of St. Louis County.

More to the point, this Grand Jury's term began before Michael Brown was shot and its term was extended until either the end of January or mid-February (can't remember which specificially, right off-hand), specifically to adjudicate the Mike Brown shooting.

So St. Louis County may be highly racist -- a quick perusal of the comments section of any online media site suggests it is -- but that racism does not appear to be a factor in who is seated on the Grand Jury, nor in what numbers each race is represented there.

Full disclosure: I think Wilson should be indicted for 2nd-degree murder.

[RKP5637]

24. Thanks for the clarification, I had not realized this earlier. DU is great for helping one

understand what is going on. Thanks again!

[KingCharlemagne]

26. To muddy the waters even further, the city of St. Louis proper is a separate

county entirely from 'St. Louis County' (home of Ferguson)!

No matter how often I write about this, I find the words getting stuck in my mouth and coming out gawky like a new-born colt. So no worries; we are all helping each other!

[Lee-Lee]

5. Some clarification

The grand jury is a county level exercise. From all I have seen it accurately reflects the racial makeup of the county.

I have never seen a case where a city has its own grand jury, but I guess it could be done in some jurisdictions. Comparing the racial makeup of a county grand jury to only one city in the county isn't an honest or fair way to judge if the makeup is accurately representing the population it is drawn from.

It also was sworn in a good time before the shooting, it wasn't picked for this case. A grand jury serves a long term, usually 6-12 months, and hears all the cases that the prosecutor brings in front of it that period. A grand jury is not empaneled for just one case.

[Lurks Often]

6. Your analysis is flawed

The Grand Jury pool is supposed to reflect the demographics of the area, so it will be for St Louis County as a whole, not just the town of Ferguson.

http://www.stlouiscopa.com/Divisions.aspx?ID=151
http://www.mow.uscourts.gov/district/jury/grand_jury_service.html
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5400000021.HTM

The master jury duty list, from which grand jurors and regular jurors are selected is made up from a combination of registered voters and those that have a driver's license.

http://www.courts.mo.gov/hosted/circuit13/juryinfo/juryfaqs.htm

Based on your link the grand jury is 25% black, which means they are proportionately representing the demographics of St Louis County

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_County,_Missouri#Demographics

[rajahaan]

13. Why would you have "high hopes"

Of anything? One family has already been torn apart. Do you know beyond a doubt that the cop was not justified in how he reacted? Not saying he was or wasn't, but I wasn't there, and neither were virtually everyone commenting about it, yet so many seem overly willing to ruin the lives of another family for the purpose of making a social statement.

[Little Star]

16. I said I DID NOT have high hopes.

[rajahaan]

19. But you missed the point

You seem disappointed that you cannot have high hopes, and I'm asking, high hopes that justice will be served? Or high hopes that a cop and another family are destroyed, regardless of circumstances, because you've become caught up in it? I just don't want to try the guy on media reports.

[Kali]

21. welcome to DU

thanks for your CONCERN

[tkmorris]

28. Yeah, this is you

http://disqus.com/rajahaan/

You DID read the TOS when you signed up, yes?

[rajahaan]

34. I posted a completely fair and unobnoxious comment

Not sure why you're hostile toward that.

[IdaBriggs]

36. Always consider the source.

From the link provided, you posted the following:

http://disqus.com/rajahaan/

Discussion on Breitbart News Network

Report: NAACP Takes Over Polling Station in Houston
rajahaan • 2 years ago
That's what I'm saying, f___ the state patrol, f___ the county mounties, why isn't there beef in the building helping these people fall down the stairs? I'm sick of conservatives being nice. Nice guys lose.

[rajahaan]

37. What you posted is really kind of mild

compared to some comments I've read here, but really is irrelevant with regard to my original comment. I simply urged caution, and urged folks to not pre-judge anything based on media reports.

[tkmorris]

39. Lemme help you out

This is from the ToS here:

"Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here."

This means you. Yes, you.

[NYC_SKP]

43. Watch what you say as a new member.

People are trying to ban you.
I was just on a jury, you're safe for now.

[JustAnotherGen]

53. Was MIRT alerted to his history?

I think he should state what he absolutely and truly believes -then leave it up to MIRT to decide if he gets to stay.

[NYC_SKP]

58. The member has done nothing to deserve banning.

If their only point is that none of us were there and we all only have second and third and fourth accounts of what happened, filtered through the media and other Internet sources so maybe it's a good idea to see where the case goes...

...then they haven't broken a rule.

Unless there's a rule that we must all be outraged at incidents like this.

I'm outraged, you're outraged, but if a new member states that they are willing to adopt an "innocent until proven guilty" stance, for now, then there is no rule break.

[tammywammy]

59. Also, from what I understand,

Postings on other websites aren't held against you by the admins here. It's your actions while at DU that can get you banned.

[JustAnotherGen]

62. Tis true

But I've been reached out to by MIRT members in the past. I believe there is a 'threshold' of posts where after that point - you have to get Admin involved.

Good reminder about other sites - I'll keep that in mind at my No Labels regional group.

[JustAnotherGen]

61. I'm not outraged

Don't put words at my hands.

I think those of you who are outraged are going to be even more outraged because we all have a better chance of meeting god in the next five minutes than the prosecutor in Ferguson having delivered a case that would lead to anything other than Wilson not being indicted.

So get ready - he's not going to be indicted.

We all know that.

You do know that - don't you?

Don't invest anymore emotion into this.

[nc4bo]

35. Reason #5001 why I LOVE DU. nt!

[RedCappedBandit]

44. ...

[JustAnotherGen]

52. Give MIRT a call on this one

That's a good find. . . Maybe he's over at the Discussionist site.

[Rex]

46. "I just don't want to try the guy on media reports."

Nobody asked you to. So why bring it up? If you don't like what you see people typing, ignore it and read the next reply. Are you saying a political discussion between some users on a forum will destroy families? Give me a break.

Seriously, no it won't - we don't represent the country and can speculate until the cows come home. Most people don't even know about this website.

The OP said he felt like the verdict would be biased, so the OP thinks justice will not be served. Pretty easy to understand.

[marble falls]

70. Why not? The victim surely was.

[nc4bo]

17. Well, seems all the material released has been manipulated to show favoritism towards murdering

cop. From the "autopsy" report to the video of a suspiciously uninjured Wilson exiting the building (when there was a claim of injury) to the missing piece of recording from the original police radio transmission (if the louse ever made it at all)

Honestly, I'm with the OP on this one.

Let's not even begin to discuss complaints made by citizens as well as the loopsided stats supporting these compaints re: DWB.

I know what bullshit smells like and so should most of DU.

Hopefully justice will prevail.

[sendero]

20. An actual trial..

.. with all the facts possible to present, should occur. The grand jury is NOT there to say anyone was guilty, they are there to decide in which cases there is enough doubt that a trial is required.

Several witnesses said Brown had surrendered before he was shot. Maybe they are all wrong or maybe they are all lying, it will take a TRIAL to find out.

[gollygee]

31. "Beyond a doubt" is not the standard of evidence for whether something should go to trial.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard of evidence at a trial, but this would just be a step to a trial, and even that standard is less stringent then beyond any doubt, the one you're suggesting should exist to even take something to trial in this case.

[RedCappedBandit]

45. You seem to think a fair trial would result in the lives of a family being ruined.

Why is that?

[LostInAnomie]

15. Yes, because it is a known fact white people cannot be fair or impartial.

We are all just looking for a chance to let a white person skate on murdering a black man.

[kwassa]

23. Many can't.

do you not understand this?

edit to add:

Before the execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer by the state of Texas in 2011 for the dragging/lynching of James Byrd to death behind his truck ....

No white man had ever been executed for the murder of a black man in the entire history of the state of Texas.

Ever.

edit to add more:

Florida has NEVER executed a white man for murdering a black man.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/03/17/3410511/this-one-statistic-tells-you-all-you-need-to-know-about-how-racist-the-death-penalty-is/

[JustAnotherGen]

56. kwassa - I never knew that about Texas

Thanks for sharing.

[kwassa]

63. if you want to get really depressed ...

read about racial disparity in death sentences.

[JustAnotherGen]

64. Oh I have

Im opposed to the death penalty as a general rule. But the disparity in race just makes me that much more opposed.

[LittleBlue]

25. Question: Will the evidence be released if Wilson isn't indicted? nt

[kwassa]

27. The grand jury testimony and audio recordings will be released.

So said the prosecutor. I hope he is good to his word.

[KingCharlemagne]

48. The presiding judge must agree to the release of any Grand Jury proceedings, as I

understand it, as GJ proceedings are typically 'secret.'

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. The flaw in this "GJ process" is not the racial composition of the GJ ...

I have no/little problem with the make-up. Rather, the problem is the complete failure of the prosecutor to do what prosecutors do as a matter of course ... present the STATE'S case before the Grand Jury; rather than, merely presenting the evidence and letting the GJ sort it out.

From my experience and most of the reporting, this is HIGHLY unusual.

[Lurks Often]

33. Unless of course the prosecutor had no intention of bringing charges in the first place

whether because the prosecutor believed it was a justifiable shooting based on the evidence or because he was covering for Wilson, depending on one's viewpoint of course.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Not just unusual. Unorthodox. So much so that Dana Milbank of the

Washington Post has characterized the Grand Jury proceedings as a 'farce':

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-ferguson-tragedy-becoming-a-farce/2014/09/12/e52226ca-3a82-11e4-9c9f-ebb47272e40e_story.html

This DA McCulloch is a real piece of work. I hope the U.S. DoJ is taking a real close look at operations in his shop.

[ZombieHorde]

30. Mostly good thread.

Some good info in here.

[0rganism]

32. i think the bigger problem is that the AG doesn't want to prosecute this case

the AG has shown repeatedly that he cannot be relied upon to vigorously prosecute. if anything springs Wilson it'll be the AG's reluctance to see the case through.

[Myrina]

38. .... also begs a larger question ...

.... is this really the representative jury pool in the area?
And if so, does the stat correlate to the fact that so much of Ferguson's black population has an arrest/conviction record and therefore aren't ABLE to be part of a jury?

Another, slightly more subtle, means of systemic disenfranchising?

[Lurks Often]

40. See post 6, among others, which have addressed the Grand Jury

composition and how it is selected

[Myrina]

41. Yes, but if one has a criminal record, one cannot register to vote.

And therefore is automatically excluded from the jury pool.

[tammywammy]

47. Missouri also uses drivers licenses lists, not just voter registration.

Also many places incorporate other lists including property tax, etc to pull in potential jurors.

[Lurks Often]

57. Which is the law in much of the country, not just Missouri.

And apparently you didn't read the links. The pool from which grand jurors and jurors is drawn from is for St. Louis County as a whole, not just Ferguson and the demographic of this Grand Jury make up matches the demographics of St. Louis County.

[Myrina]

65. Wow, thick aren't you?

I know it's the law in much of the country.

So if you were a not-so-subtly racist Mayor or Police Chief or Party Head, and you wanted to ensure that blacks were "controlled" in your area, you make a deal with the Po Po and the DA and whoever else you have on your not-so-subtle team to make sure that a disproportionate percentage of them have criminal records and therefore can neither vote nor serve on juries.

Did I really have to spell itr out for you?

[Lurks Often]

66. The only one thick here is you

It has already been cited several times that the Grand Jury in this case has:

1. Been seated since before the shooting and,

2. The demographics making up the jury match the county's demographics

Given the above two facts, implying that the Grand Jury was specifically selected to get Wilson off or that it doesn't represent the demographic make up of the county is absurd.

As for the "Mayor or Police Chief or Party Head, and you wanted to ensure that blacks were "controlled" in your area, you make a deal with the Po Po and the DA and whoever else you have on your not-so-subtle team to make sure that a disproportionate percentage of them have criminal records"

First it would have to be felony convictions to remove them from the jury rolls and why do people always resort to vast conspiracies to rationalize away things that don't fit their view on a subject.

[tammywammy]

67. Also, Missouri uses more than just voter registration lists to pull potential jurors.

So, if someone's a felon and can't vote, they can still be called because they have a drivers license or state ID or own property.

[Lurks Often]

68. Incorrect, under MO law felons can not serve on juries

http://www.courts.mo.gov/page.jsp?id=994

[tammywammy]

69. Ahh, okay. n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

50. And if any of them are making decisions based on race

then they have no business being on a jury.

Being skeptical of why the jury votes they way they do because of the race of the jurors is fucking RACIST. What, you assume that because many of the jurors are white they aren't going to look at the evidence and just decide to acquit because Wilson is white and Brown was black???

I'm getting really tired of this assumption that all white people are racist, make even critical decisions based on race and not facts, and are utterly blind to how racist such a belief is. I'm equally tired of the assumption that all the black people are equally racist and those on the jury will vote according to the races of Brown and Wilson rather than on the evidence.

Shame on you for this racist crap! Thanks to beliefs like this racism will never end. STOP making assumptions about people and how they think and behave based solely on their race! It's RACIST. These are individual PEOPLE that happen to be of different races and has NOTHING to do with how or why they vote however they do. Who the hell are you to mark them as racists especially with such racist beliefs of your own??? Just because YOU are so hung up on everyone's race and believe it's the end all and be all of everything they think and do or why doesn't mean THEY are. You don't even know anything more about them than their race and have already decided they're all racists and won't pay any attention to the evidence they're given and will vote however they do based solely on race. Disgusting and RACIST.

[Little Star]

51. lol! Thanks for the laugh.....

You feel better now?

You know nothing Jon Snow.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. You just made me feel awesome

Like - what am I supposed to do with that?

[Little Star]

60. .

[William769]

54. kick & recommended.