Circumcision Case Judge Puts Gag Order on Mother Fighting for Son Not to Be Circumcised

[UglyGreed]

Earlier this month, an appeals court upheld a ruling allowing the father of a 4-year-old boy to circumcise his son against the boy's mother's wishes. New Times broke the story last year of then-3-year-old Chase, whose parents, Dennis Nebus and Heather Hironimus, went to court to fight over whether he should have the procedure done.

But Judge Jeffrey Dana Gillen, who sits in the 15th judicial district in Palm Beach County, ruled in Nebus' favor, allowing him to go ahead and circumcise young Chase. And in an odd twist to the ruling, he added gag order on Hironimus, basically forbidding her from talking not only to the press but from telling Chase that she fought against the circumcision.

See also: Florida Mom Fights Court Order to Circumcise Her 3-Year-Old Son

The couple had previously agreed that Nebus would pay for and schedule Chase's circumcision. But Hironimus argued that there is no medical reason for her son to be circumcised and that the procedure could harm or even kill Chase. The practice is even more scrutinized now that the boy is no longer a newborn.

The case not only garnered plenty of media attention but an internet campaign was recently launched in support of Chase and his mother's quest to keep him from being circumcised. There's even been a fundraiser created by the Children's Health Advocates for Surgical Ethics (or CHASE) to help with legal fees.


http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/2014/11/circumcision_case_judge_puts_gag_order_on_mother_who_fought_for_son_not_to_be_circumcised.php

[UglyGreed]

1. My son

experienced a botched circumcision and had to go under anesthesia after he was a year old to correct the problem. I always felt, but have no proof that after the surgery he was "different" My wife and I had discussed if we should have him circumcised, in the end we decided to go head so he would "fit in"

[etherealtruth]

18. I am sorry your son went through this

I didn't believe in circumcision .... and as a young nursing student witnessed numerous circumcisions. I vowed NEVER to allow any male children of mine to be circumcised. My two sons (aged 32 and 18) were not circumcised and have not had a problem.

...BUT ... I think we all make the very best decisions that we can with the information we have (at the time) and am truly sorry r/t your son's experience.

[UglyGreed]

25. I tried to

show my wife the videos but she could not do it. I finally agreed to have the circumcision since I know how it feels to be the odd man out so to speak. Peer pressure is not just for kids.

[etherealtruth]

41. We all do the best we can

I don't know a parent that believes they did everything right (I am sure I did not ) ... just the best they can

[Prophet 451]

2. She's right

There is no medical reason for it. Here (UK), most men aren't circumcised and our sexual health is well within statistical norms. Claiming it could even cause death is going too far though. Even the worst botch is unlikely to do that much damage.

[UglyGreed]

3. I agree

and regret doing this to my own son. I am intact and that is the only part of my body that does not have a problem!!!

[Mariana]

12. In the US it's almost always done for cosmetic reasons

so the kid's penis will "look like Daddy's" or simply because mom and/or dad think it "looks better that way".

I never understood the idea that Daddies and their Sons have to have identical penises. It really is pretty damned weird.

[Crunchy Frog]

14. There is a small risk of death from putting a young child under general anesthesia.

There was actually a case a couple of years ago where a two year old died from anesthesia complications following an elective circumcision. So it's not very likely, but it can happen, which is why you usually only put a child under GA when there is a truly compelling medical justification for it. Daddy's ego isn't a sufficient medical indication IMHO.

[UglyGreed]

24. Thank you for the reply

but I referring to what is mentioned in this link below. My son suffers from a speech impediment and a learning disability which at first was diagnosed as ADHD. Now they are not sure and just call it a learning disability. I don't know if the anesthesia had anything to do with his problems, but I can't help the thought from crossing my mind from time to time. Also, his circumcision was done after birth and then he developed a skin bridge, then had surgery to repair the area when his was just over a year old.



http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2012/08/21/study-suggests-early-childhood-anesthesia-exposure-may-affect-the-brain/

[Crunchy Frog]

45. I was actually replying to someone else's post

That mentioned death as a potential risk.

I am aware of studies that suggest a risk of neurological damage in infant undergoing general anesthesia. I'm also aware that it's not at all uncommon for a circumcised baby to require later corrective surgery. It's unfortunate that parents aren't given better information about the potential risks of this surgery, but American doctors seem to like to downplay them.

[UglyGreed]

47. I'm sorry

got mixed up. Thank you for your reply though, I totally agree!

[frazzled]

32. The American Academy of Pediatrics says health benefits of circ. outweigh risks

That is their official new stance, based on their undertaking of extensive research in recent years. That said, they do not call for universal circumcision, but rather leave it to parents' preferences.

Male circumcision is a common procedure, generally performed during the newborn period in the United States. In 2007, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) formed a multidisciplinary task force of AAP members and other stakeholders to evaluate the recent evidence on male circumcision and update the Academy’s 1999 recommendations in this area. Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks and that the procedure’s benefits justify access to this procedure for families who choose it. Specific benefits identified included prevention of urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and transmission of some sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists has endorsed this statement.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/585

[Prophet 451]

37. I will read the paper in full`

once I remember where I left my Open University password. The OU give me journal access to pretty much everything but I've lost my bloody password and getting a new one requires a call to the support desk.

[Crunchy Frog]

51. You should be able to read the whole thing online w/out any password.

It's a very long, drawn out document, that contradicts itself in many places, and whose ultimate focus seems to be on money. It's the good old American profit based health care system, trying to protect a lucrative but unnecessary surgical procedure.

There's a good response to it from the European medical community.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.full.pdf+html

[Crunchy Frog]

50. I don't think that even the AAP would be so unethical as to advocate

that circumcisions be carried out in this fashion.

BTW, I've read the AAP document and was very unimpressed with it. The European medical community seems very unimpressed with it as well.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.full.pdf+html

[shaayecanaan]

67. Penile cancer is very rare

urinary tract infections are not, but still UTIs in males are a lot less common than they are in females. Both phimosis and UTIs are generally not serious conditions and interventions can be made in both cases if need be.

Regarding HIV, the thesis seems to be that the foreskin contains Langerhans cells, a type of immune cell that seems to play a part in transmitting HIV. Removing the foreskin removes the source of those cells.

Of course, the female clitoral hood also contains Langerhans cells, meaning that female circumcision (to the extent that it removes the clitoral hood) might also reduce transmission of HIV. This seems to be borne out by evidentiary info so far, eg:-

http://www.iasociety.org/Default.aspx?pageId=11&abstractId=2177677

[subterranean]

74. Wow. Circumcision prevents HIV? Who knew?

I guess that explains why HIV is virtually nonexistent in the U.S.

Seriously, I can't believe they actually published that! There is a vast mountain of evidence that circumcision does NOT prevent HIV or other STDs. I guess the AAAP just ignored the hundreds of thousands of men in the US who have HIV and are also circumcised. At best, circumcision may somewhat reduce the risk of female-to-male transmission, but the abstract suggests it actually prevents HIV. That is an incredibly irresponsible statement in my opinion.

[frazzled]

75. Apparently not you

Maybe you could read some science. Which says circumcision prevents or significantly reduces risk of contracting heterosexual HIV (27% of all HIV cases in US, so not insignificant).

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/prevention/research/malecircumcision/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127372/

http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/17/why-circumcision-lowers-risk-of-hiv/

I love how people listen to the voices in their heads instead of actually informing themselves. It's like climate deniers.

[subterranean]

78. Studies on adult men in Africa are not a valid reason...

to circumcise newborn infants in the USA, in my view. You obviously have a different opinion, which you are entitled to.

[Wella]

4. I'm curious that the dad is so hell bent on this

What's the harm of letting the kid grow up and decide for himself?

[Taitertots]

5. The problem is: how many adults would choose genital mutilation

The practice would be in jeopardy if it was only performed on consenting adults.

[Sheldon Cooper]

9. Would it be a problem if the practice is in jeopardy?

Other than for religious reasons, what would be the problem if people stop doing it?

[Rowdyboy]

15. In a very few cases a medical problem call phimosis can result. The foreskin (in extreme cases)

cannot be retracted except with great pain. Fitting a catheter becomes a nightmare. I know because I was forced to have an
adult circumcision in my early 50's. It took well over a year for my brain to "rewire" and feelings to return to "normal".

Doesn't mean that I support circumcision-only that there is sometimes a medical necessity.

[Sheldon Cooper]

16. Yikes that sounds painful!

Sorry you went through it. I can see why it would be necessary at times.

[Rowdyboy]

17. Trust me, it is not something you want to do willingly!

Now that its a distant memory I'm okay with it, but at the time I was in the only real agony I've ever experienced.

[dflprincess]

53. My friend's son was about 12 when it was discovered he had this problem

The psychological trauma was harder on him than the physical (though that wasn't easy). Of course, it wasn't helped by having his younger sister broadcast why he was going to the hospital to every kid in the neighborhood.

[NutmegYankee]

61. Isn't that what Louis XVI had?

It supposedly took him years to consecrate his marriage because he had that condition.

[Rowdyboy]

71. Yes. Supposedly he had a really severe case that made erections painful and there are

references in French history to him having an "operation" and shortly after Marie Antionette became pregnant for the first time (after 7 years of marriage).

Thank God my case was not nearly as serious. That would have made my teenage years nightmarish.

[tammywammy]

82. Yes, that's why it was many years before the marriage was consummated.

Louis was very much interested in lock making. When Marie didn't get pregnant for so long, there were a lot of jokes about her not having the key to unlock him and such. There was a lot of nastiness against Marie because she wasn't pregnant for so long...I think they were married 7 years before he had the surgery.

[beveeheart]

65. My ex-husband had this problem too.

Our sex-life deteriorated to the point of non-existence. After the procedure was done, it did not improve as he felt he was mutilated and couldn't stand being looked at or touched.

[Rowdyboy]

73. I went through a year long depresssion after the operation and was really sick about the results...

Then, after about a year, my brain rewired itself and the sensitivity returned. Since then medical problems have forced me to use a catheter 5 or 6 times during treatment and I'm really glad I did it now.

I can really understand how your ex must have felt. It really is serious, traumatic surgery with a slow, painful recovery period.

[Taitertots]

21. It wouldn't be a problem for me. But we need to convince other people.

The "problem" is that religious people would object that they can't do whatever they want.

[closeupready]

64. Not many, correct. OTOH, I had a friend who was uncircumcised, and

later - like at age 40 or so - he decided to GET circumcised, and he was very happy with the results. But you know, he made that decision for himself, as an adult.

[UglyGreed]

8. I wondered why

also, one would think it would be the other way around.

[Wella]

19. I know. I can see a dad fighting it and a mom thinking it was "cleaner"

But the other way around seems odd, unless there is a religious element.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. I'm active on a circumcision related group on a large parenting forum

And I can tell you that in the vast majority of cases, it's the mother who is opposed, while the (usually circumcised) father is the one who is pushing for it.

[Wella]

49. No kidding.

Why is that?

[Crunchy Frog]

55. Lots of psychoanalysis there, potentially derailing to the thread. ;)

I think in general that mothers tend to be more protective towards their newborn infants, just because they've grown them inside their bodies, given birth to them, and are full of pregnancy/postpartum hormones. For the fathers, they're more of an abstraction at first.

This is more of a trend than a hard and fast rule, and I certainly don't want to make any overgeneralizations.

[Wella]

57. I thought males would have more of an identification with the male baby

Sounds like I'm wrong on that.

[Crunchy Frog]

58. They do, but in a different sort of way, and that's why many want their sons circed.

I can PM you some links if you're very curious, but don't want to derail the thread.

[Wella]

59. Thanks, that would be interesting reading

I understand not wanting to take over the thread with this conversation.

[closeupready]

62. Makes a certain sense. "Her body, her choice" - a different pronoun,

but the same principle applies here - "his body, his choice."

[RedCappedBandit]

23. Says a lot about how they view the procedure being done to them..

when people don't support the idea of letting people choose for themselves.

[frazzled]

30. Because circumcision should be done on newborns

or shortly after birth (Jews do it on the eighth day, one reason being the baby's ability to clot blood best at this time).

[Wella]

31. Why? If you want this surgery as an adult, you can get it under proper anasthesia in a hospital

Some men do this for medical reasons.

Once you have circumcised a child, he never has a choice about what he wants to do with his own body. At least if you leave it alone, he can have the choice later in life, whether it is for religious or medical reasons.

[frazzled]

33. Because doing it at birth prevents those medical problems

d'oh. (All the medical consensus confirms this).

Look, don't circumcise your child if you don't want. But don't tell anyone else what to do with their child.

[Wella]

35. If you're talking about phimosis, it's a very rare phenomenon

https://urology.ucsf.edu/patient-care/children/phimosis

Current incidence of phimosis is about 1% in 7th grade boys.

So the other 99% should be circumcised because of the 1% who get this thing?

http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision

Is circumcision necessary?

The use of circumcision for medical or health reasons is an issue that continues to be debated. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The procedure may be recommended in older boys and men to treat phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) or to treat an infection of the penis.

I'm not passionate about this issue, but it seems that circumcising all babies because 1% might get a condition when they're older--a condition that can be cured medically--is simply not justified.

[LeftyMom]

80. And the rest of the world treats it with topical steriods in most cases. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Except for the medical consensus of the rest of the developed world.

[Scootaloo]

54. Most of the penises in the world manage to get along just fine with a foreskin

And I absolutely will tell people to not perform fucking cosmetic surgery on their infant.

[closeupready]

63. "don't tell anyone else what to do with their child" - yes, a pregnant 13 year old child

should be told what to do with her body by her father.

[subterranean]

76. No, it only reduces the risk of UTIs in the first year.

The other medical problems it supposedly "prevents" are some STDs, which are not a problem for infants, and penile cancer, which affects a tiny percentage of old men. The medical consensus confirms that.

I won't tell strangers what to do with their child unless they ask me (which they usually don't), but I do not like people spreading misinformation. And there is a hell of a lot of misinformation about this subject.

[bemildred]

6. If it's not broke, don't mess with it. nt

[avebury]

7. The judge has no right to implement

a gag order on the mother. That has got to be unconstitutional. She should keep copies of any newspaper articles and, when the boy is old enough to understand and the time is right, leave copies of the articles in plain sight. Oops!

Edit to Add - There are other ways for the mother to see that the child gets the information at the right time.
1. The judge did not implement a gag order on anyone else so other people would be free to talk to the judge at the appropriate time.
2. Google is your friend. What goes on the internet generally stays there. It all becomes a matter of knowing when to point someone in the right direction and send them on a path of self discovery.

If the Dad and the Judge truly believe that they are doing the right thing, they would not want to cover up the method in which the act was being committed on the boy.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

83. The judge most certainly has the authority, in minor child custody matters, to regulate...

..... parental actions and speech where the child's best interests are concerned.

I have no opinion on the circumcision matter and don't begrudge the mother the right to fight having the procedure done. But once it's done, that should be the end of the discussion until at least when the child is no longer a minor.

Telling the kid he was mutilated by their father will only be used as wedge issue that will end up psychologically damaging the kid.

The judge probably can't throw her in jail (except maybe for contempt) but he certainly can keep her from interacting (custody) if she wants to drag her kids penis through the mud and media.

Once it's done, cut or no cut, they should both shut the fuck up about their kids penis.

[avebury]

87. The problem with the judge's gag order

is that there is a good chance that the child will remember what is happening. My earliest memory was from when I was 2 years old and in the hospital for surgery. At the age of 3, the little boy is old enough to remember what is being done to him.

I do think that the child has the right, at some point in his life, to know what happened and how it happened. Because the father forced an unnecessary procedure on the child should not allow the father to then hide behind the protection of a gag order. It smacks of a sexism male vs female decision (i.e. a male judge siding with the Dad). It is troubling that the judge did not assign an independent person to be there on he behalf of the child.

Do you think that if a Dad went to court to force his your daughter to have the female circumcision (which is a form of female genitalia mutilation) that a judge should be able to rule in favor of the parent advocating the surgery and then impose a gag order on the parent advocating for the child?

A good lawyer, using this court ruling, could argue that circumcision is circumcision rather it be for a boy or a girl. And given the Conservative war on women and female reproductive rights it is conceivable that, down the road, some idiots may start advocating for female circumcision if it means that it may result in girls not becoming sexually active at a young age before marriage.

The difference in how society has historically viewed male and female circumcision is that male circumcision has been pushed by more western oriented societies (more "educated" and Christian/Jewish) and female circumcision by more African and Middle Eastern societies (more ignorant less educated and non Christian).

[Orrex]

10. Why don't they simply circumcise the father again and call it even?

[UglyGreed]

42. Winner winner chicken dinner!!!! N/T

[cali]

11. I'm so glad I didn't have my son circumcized

nor was there any pressure to do so.

[UglyGreed]

29. Good for you

I should of stood my ground, but as I wrote above that I was indeed ridiculed as a child so I take full responsibility and won't blame my wife at all. Peer pressure is powerful thing and I did want my son to go through what I did. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. It's stories like this that make me glad that I had my sons as a single mother

with donor sperm.

If you read the linked article, apparently the judge has also ordered that mother and child be separated for several weeks following the surgery. He sounds like he's off his rocker, frankly. And I don't see how such a gag order would not be violating the mother's free speech rights. Can the state really dictate the conversations that go on between family members?

I think I'll go ahead and make a small donation to the legal defense fund.

[logosoco]

20. Am i missing something here? I read the article and don't see why the dad wanted to do

this. I can't understand why a judge would agree with a child getting this procedure if it was not medically needed. The child is much to young to make the choice himself.
I did not have my son circumcised, I left it up to my husband and he surprised me with the decision. But at any point if my son had said he was having problems with it, I would have taken him to a doctor. But I assumed that would be around when he was a teenager, not a four year old.

And that judge needs a thump on the head for saying the boy can't see his mother for weeks after the procedure.

[LeftinOH]

22. Dad is obsessed with his son's privates - that's what it

boils down to. How creepy is that? However this ends, when this kid gets older, he'll want to know why his father was so obsessed with surgically altering his privates. Creepy dad.

[Wella]

36. That's what it feels like.

Don't know, of course, but it is odd. Unless there is a religious angle.

[Mariana]

66. I think it's pretty common, actually.

I'd bet a majority of the circumcisions in the US (that aren't medically necessary or religiously motivated) are done so that the son's penis will "look like Daddy's".

[joeybee12]

26. They refer to the parents as mother and father, never husband and wife...

I can only think that maybe the father has complete custody and control...if not, this doesn't make sense.

[RKP5637]

27. It's insane to force this ugly and cruel custom on infants and especially not at 3 years. n/t

[UglyGreed]

28. I totally agree

let kid grow up a bit more and let him make his own choice.

[RKP5637]

40. Exactly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[d_r]

34. I bet this is just the tip of the problem

[UglyGreed]

38. Oh no you didn't

Sometimes problems like this can grow ya know!!!

[Comrade Grumpy]

39. I don't get the outrage over circumcision.

It works just fine for me and every other guy I've ever talked to about it. (Not that I spend a lot of time talking about it.)

[UglyGreed]

43. Well mine works fine

and it's still intact, My kid's had to be redone, that two cuts in his first year of life. Video below if you dare, not a pretty sight.

http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/circumcision-video.html

[LostInAnomie]

44. Agree.

But, someone has staked out the maximalist position on a procedure that 99.999% of people that received it don't remember or regret, so now we have to hear about it a few times a year.

[still_one]

52. mine to. This is an issue for the families to decide, and in this case the court will be an

arbiter, because it seems that the mother and father have some issues

[Scootaloo]

56. You cool with infant face lifts and tummy tucks, too?

It's unnecessary cosmetic surgery performed on a person who cannot consent to it, simply for the aesthetic pleasure of his parents.

Mine "works fine" too - doesn't mean the idea of performing cosmetic surgery on an infant is any less stupid.

[Comrade Grumpy]

68. I didn't realize there was an issue with infant face lifts and tummy tucks.

You can call it stupid if you want; I'm quite happy with things as they are.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

70. But you don't know what it's like to have a foreskin as an adult.

And experience sex. You don't know what it feels like to have sex as an adult with an intact penis.

There is a very good reason for the foreskin to be there. It does serve a useful purpose. I am a grown woman and I know how much easier things are when the foreskin is there. Unfortunately, in the US there seems to be an obsession with cutting it off, without regard to the future sexual pleasure of the future adult and his sexual partners. Millions of nerve endings are removed and cannot be regrown.

Because in the US, sex is considered dirty and shameful and not to be discussed. As far as cut ones looking "cleaner", that is a stupid reason. Boys should be taught about soap and water.

[Comrade Grumpy]

81. That's true. But you know what? It feels pretty damned good with my "mutilated" penis.

And I imagine you don't know what it's like to have a foreskin as an adult, either.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

89. You just tried to derail the conversation. Irrelevant and immaterial, my being a female.

Yes, I am a female, but you STILL don't know what sex would feel like with an intact penis with ALL your nerve endings that there were originally. My point stands.

[UglyGreed]

90. Did you check out the

video?

[Mariana]

85. I'm also a grown woman, and I agree with you.

No one ever considers that the foreskin is there for OUR benefit, as well as the man's. It makes a huge difference.

[Union Scribe]

72. I think there are two categories of people

Those of us who don't think about it (probably 95% or so), and those who are against it--but all of them are REALLY against it. I mean, like, REALLY REALLY against it. And they post here about it.

[Yupster]

86. I saw a survey once that said

that overwhelmingly men who were circumcised were very happy they were, and men who weren't were very happy they weren't, so the rest of us need to mind our own business.

[Bettie]

60. We have three boys

None of them have been circumcised.

In this case, if it was so important to the father, he should have scheduled it well before the child's first birthday, much less his third.

[jillan]

69. I'm so glad I had girls and didn't have to make this decision.

There are so many pros and cons. I know a man that wasn't and had problems late in life and ended up having to get one in his 50s.

But there is the part of me that wants to wrap my kids in bubble wrap, even as adults, so nothing will ever hurt them - I don't know if I could have done it.
And I am so thankful I didn't have to decide.

[Bettie]

88. I told my husband

my opinion on it, but gave him the responsibility of researching and making the final decision as he is the owner of a penis.

He did a lot of reading and decided that leaving them intact was the best decision we could come to.

[ZombieHorde]

79. Circumcision is an idea so great

that we have to force it on infants, because extremely few adults would do it.

I believe circumcision will be illegal for minors in first world countries someday.

[Mariana]

84. I do hope so.

Cosmetic surgery shouldn't be done on young children unless it's to repair an injury or deformity.

[Prophet 451]

91. Except for medical purposes

There are a very small set of conditions where there is actually a legitimate medical purpose for it.