Friendly reminder to ignore Salvation Army bell ringers this year....

[Playinghardball]

They use your money to lobby for anti-LGBT laws around the world in addition to exploiting the homeless, supporting anti-POC, anti-LGBT, anti-woman Conservative politicians, and doing it all under the guise of being a “religious organization”

http://tmblr.co/ZEizux1WFixTR

[Cooley Hurd]

1. From the Wikipedia page about the Salvation Army:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army#Controversy

Stance on homosexuality
Some in the United States have alleged that The Salvation Army discriminates against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) individuals in its hiring practices.[50][51] The Salvation Army states that it does not "discriminate against hiring gays and lesbians for the majority of its roughly 55,000 jobs".[52] Because The Salvation Army is a church, Title VII of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 allows it to inquire into people's religious beliefs in its hiring practices.

The Salvation Army Western Territory approved a plan in October 2001 to start offering domestic-partnership benefits to gay employees.[53] Members of various evangelical Christian interest groups protested the decision. Focus on the Family founder James Dobson excoriated the Salvation Army for abandoning its "moral integrity" and urged his radio listeners to bombard the organization's offices with phone calls and letters.[53] The American Family Association also accused the Salvation Army of a "monstrous ... appeasement of sin" that resulted in a "betrayal of the church."[53] In November 2001 The Salvation Army nationwide rescinded the Western Territory's decision with an announcement that it would only provide benefits coverage for different-sex spouses and dependent children of its employees.

In 2004, The Salvation Army said they would close operations in New York City unless it was exempted from a municipal ordinance requiring them to offer benefits to gay employees’ partners. The City Council refused to make the exemption. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg's administration chose not to enforce the ordinance. The administration's right to decline to enforce the ordinance was upheld by the New York State Court of Appeals in 2006.

On December 15, 2012, in Canada, Andrea Le Good noticed a Salvation Army bell-ringer carrying a sign reading "if you support gay rights: please do not donate." While the bell-ringer claimed he had permission from the charity to wear the sign, Salvation Army spokeswoman Kyla Ferns said that it had no part in the sign, and that the bell-ringer was pulled away immediately when the charity learned about it.[55] The charity's website describes marriage as heterosexual by definition, and a previously published document called on homosexuals to embrace celibacy as a way of life. The same document also states that there is no scriptural support for the mistreatment of homosexuals.

In February 2000, the Salvation Army in the United Kingdom publicly (in their publication known as "War Cry" and in a letter to a Scottish Parliament committee) opposed the repeal of Section 28 of the Local Government Act (1988)[56] However, The Salvation Army in the UK and Ireland website refers to the organization offering 'unconditional assistance and support regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual choices, respecting the identity and choices of all those referred to them....As well as having a right to be dealt with professionally, people can expect from us encouragement and a respect for their individual beliefs, ambitions and preferences.'

Before the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 by the New Zealand Parliament, the Salvation Army was active throughout New Zealand gathering signatures for a petition seeking to prevent the bill's passing. In 2006 the Army released a statement regretting the ill feelings that persisted following this activity. It stated in part "We do understand though that The Salvation Army’s official opposition to the Reform Bill was deeply hurtful to many, and are distressed that ill-feeling still troubles our relationship with segments of the gay community. We regret any hurt that may remain from that turbulent time and our present hope is to rebuild bridges of understanding and dialogue between our movement and the gay community."

Despite documented events of Salvation Army's volunteers and their views, the organization has issued an LGBT Statement as a response. The statement does not address any documented news events of discrimination and claims to debunk these events as urban myth.

In November 2013 it was made known that the Salvation Army was referring LGBT individuals to one of several conversion therapy groups.[59] As a response the Salvation Army removed such referrals from their website.

A positional statement on the Salvation Army UK and Ireland site states:
The Salvation Army teaches that sexual acts should take place only in a monogamous heterosexual marriage, believing that this reflects God's intentions for sexual behaviour and provides the best environment for raising children.

The positional statement is, however, intended explicitly for members of the Salvation Army[62] and the Salvation Army mission statement as of 2013 states:
The Salvation Army stands against homophobia, which victimises people and can reinforce feelings of alienation, loneliness and despair. We want to be an inclusive church community where members of the LGBT community find welcome and the encouragement to develop their relationship with God...Our international mission statement is very clear on this point when it says we will 'meet human needs in [Jesus'] name without discrimination '. Anyone who comes through our doors will be welcomed with love and service, based on their need and our capacity to provide.

As of late 2013, activists were still calling on the Salvation Army to change its stance on LGBTQ issues, citing ongoing discrimination.

Canadian charity work
During the 2010 Christmas season, The Salvation Army in Calgary, Alberta, refused to accept toys based on the Harry Potter and Twilight franchises because of a perceived conflict with the organization's religious principles. One volunteer claimed that the toys were destroyed instead of being given to other agencies. The volunteer also criticized The Salvation Army for accepting violence-themed toys such as plastic rifles while not accepting Harry Potter or Twilight toys. A Salvation Army captain said that the toys were given to other organizations, not disposed of.[67] This policy is not universal. The Wetaskiwin chapter of The Salvation Army has accepted Harry Potter toys. One captain called the series "a classic story of good winning over evil".

Also during the 2010 Christmas season, The Salvation Army in Vancouver, BC, came under fire for a program that provides goodie bags to federal inmates for Christmas by playing Santa to incarcerated criminals.[69] This was however simply an extended outreach as part of The Salvation Army's prisoner visitation program established over a century ago.

Proselytizing during government-funded social service in New York
In 2004, the Salvation Army's New York division was named in a lawsuit filed by 18 current and former employees of its social service arm, claiming that the organization asked about the religious and sexual habits of employees in programs funded by local and state government. One member claimed the organization forced them to agree "to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ."[70] Proselytizing or otherwise pursuing religious motives in a government-funded program is generally considered a violation of the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution. While the employment-discrimination portion of the lawsuit was dismissed in 2005, government agencies agreed in a 2010 settlement to set up monitoring systems to ensure that the Army did not violate church-state separation in its publicly funded projects. The organization did not dispute allegations that 9-year-olds in a city-funded foster care program were put through a "confirmation-like" ceremony, where they were given Bibles and prayed over.

Australian sex abuse cases
From the 1940s to the 1980s the Salvation Army in Australia sheltered approximately 30,000 children. In 2006 the Australian Salvation Army acknowledged that sexual abuse may have occurred during this time and issued an apology. In it, the Army explicitly rejected a claim, made by a party unnamed in the apology, that there were as many as 500 potential claimants.

In 2013 it was reported that private settlements totalling $15.5 million had been made in Victoria relating to 474 abuse cases; a Salvation Army spokesman said that "This should not have happened and this was a breach of the trust placed in us" and that they were "deeply sorry" whilst claiming that the abuse was "the result of individuals and not a culture within the organisation."

On the 28th of January 2014, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse began an investigation into abuse cases at Alkira Salvation Army Home for Boys, Indooroopilly, QLD, Riverview Training Farm (also known as Endeavour Training Farm), Riverview, QLD, Bexley Boys’ Home, Bexley, NSW, and Gill Memorial Home, Goulburn, NSW. The investigation will also examine The Salvation Army’s processes in investigating, disciplining, removing and/or transferring anyone accused of, or found to have engaged in, child sexual abuse in these homes.

On the 27th of March 2014, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse began an investigation into The policies, practices and procedures of The Salvation Army (Eastern Territory), between 1993 and 2014, for responding to claims of child sexual abuse at children’s homes it operated or elsewhere, the application and adequacy of these policies, practices and procedures between 1993 and 2014, the experience of people who made complaints to The Salvation Army (Eastern Territory) between 1993 and 2014, the policies, practices and procedures between 1989 and 2014 concerning the disciplining of officers of The Salvation Army (Eastern Territory) who were the subject of allegations of child sexual abuse.

[Le Taz Hot]

4. ". . . allows it to inquire into people's religious beliefs in its hiring practices. "

That in itself is a discriminatory hiring practice. Yes, it's legal, but it's not right. My guess is there's probably not a whole lot of atheists working there.

I also found this:

The Salvation Army, unlike most other major charities, is not required to file public information because it is considered by the IRS and state authorities to be a church. These statements show over $2 billion in income and $1.6 billion in expenses for fiscal 1996.

http://charitywatch.org/articles/salvarmy.html

It's MUCH better to donate to local charities. The donations stay in your community and are easily traceable.

[arikara]

34. I don't donate to any corporate charities anymore

Not the salvation army, not the red cross or any of the cancer "awareness" societies. Only local on the ground groups like the food bank, no tankers/ no pipelines earth protector groups and cat rescues, where the volunteers do it for the love of what they do. I want my money to be put to good use, I don't make enough to subsidize some fat corporate charity ceo's salary.

[littlewolf]

54. the only thing I give the red cross is blood.

I donate to my local SPCA and to a German Shepherd Rescue.
I also donate to a place called Union Mission in VA.

[Heather Kube]

59. The Salvation Army's CEO gets paid very little actually, but

I know what you mean about fat cat salaries, like the CEO of United Way, for example.

[bhikkhu]

71. A good run-down on charity CEO salaries, for those interested:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/charities.asp

[arikara]

72. Maybe the ceo wages are reasonable at sally ann

but they do a lot of other things that really bother me. Their nasty gay policy is just one of many.

Like one of the local care homes owned and operated by them, they fired all the workers which were mainly middle aged women who'd worked up to a decent salary, so they could hire new workers at minimum wage.

And their thrift stores are the highest priced around here. They advertise like they are some kind of boutique. All the stuff is donated to them and they try to sell it in some cases at higher than new price. And I know lots of other stories but I won't get into it, their policies suck and I don't donate to them.

And as for the other corporate charities, all these fat cats discovered that charity is a cash cow for them.
Sorry about the mixed metaphors there.

[hamsterjill]

125. I'm with you.

I donate locally to organizations that I have known to be what they should be, and that way, I can actually watch my donations do some good.

[Drale]

126. Always donate local

Corporate Charities are nothing but money laundering operations.

[FSogol]

2. Agreed, however don't use the Salvation Army as an excuse not to help.

Find local organizations (like your local food bank) and make a donation of any size.

You can find them here:

http://www.feedingamerica.org/find-your-local-foodbank/

[tabbycat31]

67. Your foodbank also needs food

And don't forget about things like toiletries (which assistance does not cover). An easy way to donate supplies to the foodbank is if you stay in hotels, take the shampoo, soap, etc that they give you and donate it to the foodbank if you aren't planning on using it (the cost is already built into your room).

[PADemD]

81. The closest Feeding America food bank is over 30 miles away.

I prefer to give locally.

[pinboy3niner]

100. Many local food banks aren't part of the Feeding America network

Ours isn't in it either, so like you I donate directly to the food bank near me.

Local food banks that are out of the FA network aren't hard to find--and they often are part of a resource center that provides a wide range of other services as well. Ours also operates our homeless shelter under contract with the city.

[FSogol]

106. Didn't I say to give locally? The link was just a suggestion for folks that aren't

aware of where their local food bank is located.

[Historic NY]

3. Makes me laugh they hire bell ringers...

in the old days it was someone in uniform.

[Octafish]

83. I volunteered a few years back.

Raised a few dollars for a couple of hours. Lots of nice people.

Here in Detroit, they run a shelter, soup kitchen, pantry...Good People, as far as I know.

[Historic NY]

85. I've got nothing against them just seems like paying money to raise money is...

dumb. They helped get my niece home for a family funeral.

[Octafish]

107. The people from my newspaper volunteered for two-hour shifts...

...We stood in the cold outside the Sears at a local mall and rang a bell. None of us got paid, we did it for free.

That was a couple of holiday seasons about 15 years ago. If now SA is paying people, maybe I should get in line for a gig. As I've gotten old, I've found there really aren't very many jobs around I felt good doing.

[rhett o rick]

114. Those bellringers that I have spoken to needed the money. nm

[packman]

5. Perhaps true, which saddens me-

But my uncle, who served in WWII, had nothing but praise for the Salvation Army and would spit on anything doing with the Red Cross.

[freebrew]

11. I remember my grandma saying that...

regarding her brother in WW2.
In 1967 saw the same thing going on. RC was there w/coffee and donuts, but they were charging. We were building an emergency levee to keep flood waters out of a community, all our $$ was in our cars because we were wet.
SA came and gave away free stuff for the volunteers.

I also remember their positions during *'s administration. They lost my support over those years.

Using religion to discriminate for ANY reason is wrong morally and if the religious are using their morals to be immoral, WTF?

[Worried senior]

15. I have never dealt with the Salvation Army

but when I was three years old, our house burned down.

My father said the Red Cross offered to help but they would need to be paid back. He refused their assistance and did it on his own. I have never been a fan although many people sing their praises.

[douggg]

18. My father in hospital end of WWll in Germany

No money, no coffee or donuts for you.

Another POW just released in Germany said the RC wanted to serve coffee and donuts to the well dressed soldiers but not the scraggly POWs.

[blackcrowflies]

29. I've read numerous articles about the Red Cross

screwing up. I thought it was semi-recent the last couple of decades, but this sounds like it's been going on a long time. I don't know where they got the reputation for doing good.

[rurallib]

32. my FIL in WWII was part of D-Day landing

a short time later he was in France in uniform and saw the RC handing out coffee. He got a cup and the worker asked him to pay for it. He handed it back and thus began a lifelong hate of all things red cross.

That and a story about R&R in Iceland were the only two stories he ever told of his WWII experience.

[The Wizard]

64. My dad had a bad RC experience

during WW II. He asked for a nickle to call home and they refused. A nickle? Really, a fucking nickle.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

76. Planet Money did a story about this

That is where I first heard about how much resentment WWII vets had toward the Red Cross:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/13/156737801/the-cost-of-free-doughnuts-70-years-of-regret

[PatrynXX]

6. well okay grinch but I won't

one of the few that I do give and will continue to donate to. So hey if you wanna ignore some hard ringers find but I do find that just sick

[dsc]

8. If they lobbied to overturn the civil rights act of 1964 would you feel the same way?

If yes, then you are at least consistent but hardly progressive, but if not, why not?

[Logical]

68. I find it sick you want to support a anti-gay organization. Disgusting....

The Salvation Army's History of Anti-LGBT Discrimination

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zinnia-jones/the-salvation-armys-histo_b_4422938.html

[cwydro]

96. BS nt

[ctaylors6]

7. Is that still true in every chapter?

I have a relative who is very involved in a Salvation Army service, and she said DFW chapter is not anti-LGBT (anymore?). I found a few links:

http://www.dallasvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/DV-12-20-13.pdf

http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/tech/texas-marriage-lawsuit-guard-benefits-salvation-army-gay-isnt-sin-518035675

Now I'm curious and would love any info you have about whether policies vary from chapter to chapter.

Thanks!!

[SidDithers]

9. The Salvation Army opposed marriage equality in Canada...

testifying before a Parliamentary Committee that:

The Salvation Army's belief about marriage is that it ought to be a covenanting together of one man and one woman for life in a voluntary union characterized by faithfulness, mutual affection, respect, and support.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=839046&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=37&Ses=2#Int-508667

Despite the fact that same-sex marriage has been legal in some Canadian provinces since 2003, and nationally since 2005, The Salvation Army will not perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples in Canada.

That is their right. And it's my right to not give them a fucking penny.

Sid

[QuestionAlways]

10. When I was a draftee during the Vietnam War

I had a crisis. The Red Cross did nothing to help me, but the Salvation Army was very, very helpful. I will always donate to them, no matter what is their policy regarding LGBT issues.

[840high]

24. I always donate to them and will

continue to do so.

[phil89]

30. It's shameful to be supporting them.

It is immoral to support this organization.

[WinkyDink]

57. Which do you recommend?

Your reply can be your 521st post.

[HERVEPA]

31. Does their LGBT poilcy bother you?

[QuestionAlways]

38. Yes, but the good work they do is much more important

[kelly1mm]

116. So did Presdient Obama's in 2008. Did you vote for him? nt

[HERVEPA]

117. Salvation Army virulently anti-gay

Obama's position on marriage equality, though disgusting, was not homophobic.
Ergo, no comparison.

[kelly1mm]

118. If you say so ...... somewhat like a kinder, gentler bigot? nt

[HERVEPA]

119. Sorry, logic failure in your comparison.

If Obama doesn't win, I get someone much worse in anti-gay policies and almost everything else.
If I don't give to the Salvation Army, I can instead give my money to someone else doing good who is not homophobic.
MSF, Feeding America, Oxfam America, and about a zillion others

[kelly1mm]

122. Whatever lets you sleep at night .... nt

[cwydro]

47. Yes.

[LWolf]

12. I ran into a bell-ringer November 12th;

it wasn't even Thanksgiving week yet. Is that early, or did it just seem like it? I just kept walking, as always.

Of course, yesterday, when I actually DID my shopping for Thursday's meal, the whole place was filled with xmas trees and music and paraphernalia. I thought that loyal consumers could at least wait until Friday.

And, since I'm not that loyal a consumer, I won't be out and about on Friday, either.

[mimi85]

13. Nordstrom

waits until the day after Turkey Day to decorate. Wish others would follow suit.

[Mariana]

20. Some of the stores around here

had their fake Xmas trees and other Xmas crap out the second week of October.

[eggplant]

14. Looking for an alternate charity?

http://www.fundabortionnow.org/

[Daemonaquila]

44. Dang you!

My rule is that I only give to to animal-related charities. Now you've made me think seriously about funding one for humans.

[eggplant]

46. I really like their purpose

Planned Parenthood is great from a lobbying perspective, and they provide low cost healthcare to women, which is also totally awesome. But when you are in *urgent* need and don't have the money or a ride or whatever, they can't really do much for you. These folks can.

The website is for the national organization, but I recommend using their site to find an organization local to you, and give to them. And to the national group, too, if you are feeling extra generous. And to Planned Parenthood. And to...

[AtheistCrusader]

92. Fortunately, humans are animals.

[cwydro]

16. I have three friends, all gay,

who work for the Salvation Army.

Furthermore, they were the first on the scene in the aftermath of two hurricanes I had the misfortune to experience.

I'm gay, and I give to every bell ringer I see.

[AngryOldDem]

104. As I said downthread....

This issue tears me up every year, because I have seen firsthand the good SA does in moving people out of homelessness. I used to work at a homeless shelter that was utterly overwhelmed trying to transition families and single men and women out of the system, and SA was a literal godsend. They had a halfway house program for men and housing for families, which helped a lot of people.

But...their anti-gay stance is troubling.

Is there any chance, do you think, that SA will reconsider its hard line on this issue?

(Now, I'm back to leaning toward donating, at least once.)

[Yo_Mama]

105. Thank you for posting this - I was thinking the same

How many GLBTQ in trouble have they helped? I personally know a few.

[KingCharlemagne]

17. During the depths of the Reagan Great Recession of 1982-3 (when the

Last edited Sun Nov 23, 2014, 03:11 PM - Edit history (1)

national unemployment rate reached 12%), the SA was the ONLY organization running free soup kitchens in Kansas City, MO. I think that record -- supplemented by some of the other testimony in this thread -- should earn them at least some recognition. I don't think the SA subjected those hungry people coming to its soup kitchens to any sort of 'faith' test.

[REP]

39. I can vouch for the KC SA helping anyone in need, no questions, no sermons

I am greatly disappointed by the organization's stance on LGTB and reproductive rights. When I lived in KC, though - from birth to about 17 years ago - I knew a lot of people, straight and LGBT, who were involved with the SA in some way; as members, as band members, or who had simply gone to them for help. Help was given in the form of cash with no sermons (though anyone was welcome to attend them) and no judgements.

We have veterans in my family who were treated kindly by the SA when the Red Cross was selling doughnuts and coffee to soldiers, plus we're fans of GB Shaw, so good feelings about the SA are deeply ingrained. It's hard to know what to do - their guiding policies are awful but the help they give is real.

[cwydro]

48. "The help they give is real."

Your last statement says it all.

I think I'm going to count up the statements against the SA in this thread...and donate that amount of dollars.

So...to the grinch... You've vastly increased what I normally donate😊

[REP]

50. There are other religious organizations who have similar positions on GBLT and reproductive rights

Of those who do have those odious positions, the SA has less influence on policy and treats people asking for help with more respect (they don't require anyone to listen to preaching before being given money, for one).

Again, that the SA has those positions is extremely disappointing. It's so at odds with the good they have done. I hope they continue to evolve (the Wiki page above shows some evolution), but at least the money in the drums does help keep someone's lights and heat on, or another desperate expense.

[AtheistCrusader]

93. The damage they do is real, too.

[cwydro]

97. Please link to some "damage"

Waiting.

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Ok, did you just not read the OP, or do you dispute it?

[lpbk2713]

19. You can be selective if you want to.

A cold and hungry homeless family can't be so selective when they go looking for help. Maybe you can prepare a statement the SA can post on their door when they turn needy people away because they have nothing to give them.

[Moonwalk]

66. I understand your position if they're the only providers of food in town...

...is that the case where you are? Where I am, I have lots of options. Food banks, etc. So your argument doesn't convince me. Why should I donate to them when I can donate money, etc. to organizations that I *know* won't use the money to lobby against gay equality as SA has apparently done in the past and might be doing now?

[DesertDiamond]

21. I don't donate to SA nor purchase from them since learning they force the needy to pray to their

deity in order to receive help. And I am not basing this just on articles I've read about it but on the experiences reported by people I've spoken with who turned to the SA for help. I find this to be totally unacceptable.

[cwydro]

40. That's not true.

Certainly not in Florida where they always are first on the scene after hurricanes.

[840high]

51. You got some wrong info here.

[quakerboy]

78. Or you do

Im seeing posts here that they offer aid without strings.

But Ive seen them offering aid with strings. If your kids want to be part of their (government subsidized) community programs, expect them to be required to pray, or at least sing praise songs. If you have a group of homeless men needing a hot dinner, expect to be required to participate in prayer.


Perhaps this type of thing is inconsistent from location to location. I cant speak to that. But some of them definitely do this.

[840high]

80. When they offer help

after a hurricaine or fire - they don't ask you to pray first. It very well may differ from location to location.

[AngryOldDem]

103. No. They don't.

The experiences you heard of are outliers. There are, however, many groups that do predicate their help on proselytizing.

[War Horse]

22. The SA does a *lot* of good

My cousin even used to work for an SA-run goodwill outlet, and she's as liberal as they come.
But a rec for pointing this out. The SA if very much homophobic. A Norwegian SA officer got fired because he was gay. I guess they are Christian fundamentalists in a kind of very literal way. Very socially conservative and judgmental, yet they go out of their way to help those less fortunate. If you are a homeless heroin addict about to freeze to death, the SA just very well might be there for you and save your life when nobody else will. The SA is very much a double-edged sword.

[CAG]

23. I'm a ringer next Sunday, hope to raise a lot

Of money to help those in need.

[HERVEPA]

33. Does their LGBT poilcy bother you?

[cwydro]

41. They hire gay folks.

I know this because my openly gay friends work there.

I'm gay.

They helped me after disasters. They help people every day. And no. They do not make you pray.

Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees.

[CAG]

43. +100

[graywarrior]

25. Most of the bell ringers I see seem to have an emotional or a physical disability

so I'm not mean to them. I figure they think they're doing something good while getting a piddly amount of money for doing it. That said, I don't support anything having to do with Salvation Army.

[hrmjustin]

26. I never give them a dime! Their anti-gay policy is why.

[WestSeattle2]

27. This is an organization that I find loathsome. I recall years ago they returned a donation

check from a bible study group associated with our church. The group? Archdiocesan Gay & Lesbian Outreach.

I'm sure the recipients of the Salvation Army's "benevolence" could not care less who donates money to help them.

We don't give SA bell ringers the time of day.

[Arugula Latte]

28. If you have the stomach for it you can put these vouchers in their kettles:

?4

More here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/salvation-army-gay-rights-voucher_n_2192085.html

[Shemp Howard]

82. Really?

Many Salvation Army bellringers are paid people. They are unfortunate souls who need money for basic expenses...and maybe if there is a little left over, for holiday gifts.

And you want to stuff their kettles with pieces of paper?

Really? Do you really think the bellringers deserve that? Please reconsider. If you have a legitimate beef with the SA, write letters to their top officers, write letters to the local media, hold teach-ins near SA offices, etc.

But my goodness, don't make things even more miserable for those poor people standing by the kettles.

[Arugula Latte]

115. I wouldn't say anything to the bellringer.

They might not even know you put a piece of paper rather than a dollar in there if it's folded up.

It's not like the bellringers are being paid directly from the kettles.

[PDJane]

35. I am ambivalent.

I admit that I don't like their stance on gays and a great many other things, including their insistence on twelve-step programs (they aren't as effective as they are purported to be) and their demonization of abortion. (I am still not on speaking terms with someone I went to school with. Why? Because I helped a woman obtain an abortion for her 11-year-old. Her uncle on her father's side had raped the child, and her father wanted her to carry the child and live with him. Not just no, but hell no. I hear from them occasionally; they are not where her father can find them.)

I do realize that they do good where they can, but I have always been concerned about the way that they do that good. I do donate to them from time to time, but prefer to donate to the food banks and more direct action.

[Daemonaquila]

49. They do nothing that other orgs don't also do, often better.

If you look at the best things they provide, like a first-come-first-served dental clinic in some locations, shelter space, etc., you'll find that other orgs are doing the same things in the same community but providing better care with fewer strings attached. While people can support them for the good work they do, there is no reason not to support the other orgs instead.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. When our daughters were very young

We were in a terrible financial position come Christmas time. We went to the Salvation Army, and not only did the provide us with food for a Christmas dinner, they put our girls on their donation tree.

If it weren't for them, our girls wouldn't have had a Christmas that year. They never asked us our religion, made us attend services or even pray with them. They just helped.

I keep singles in my wallet this time of year specifically to help them, and pull two "angels" from their tree as well, and I'll continue to do so for as long as I'm able.

I understand why others disagree, and in different circumstances, I might as well.

[cwydro]

45. I carry one dollar bills

at this time if year for that reason.

If I was richer, I'd carry more.

They do good work.

[PDJane]

60. Our Agnes hasn't donated to them for more than 50 years.

Why? Because our house was set on fire one year; neither the Salvation Army nor her church helped one iota. In fact, her church sent people to ask her to bake a pie for their bake sale. She threw them out, and I heard whispers around the town about how awful she was because she didn't have anything for the bake or rummage sale.

She hasn't set foot inside a church since.

[darkangel218]

37. Thyere posted in front of Publix

I always ignore them. I smile at them, then keep walking.

Screw their anti lgbt propaganda and screw them.

[shraby]

42. As far as I can see, the ones saying "screw them" aren't being any

better than the ones they want screwed.
I thought Christmas is the time for giving, and the Salvation Army sees to it that the giving gets spread around to people who need it.
Other charities spread around the "giving" to the CEO's of the charity, what's left over "might" get to the people who need it.
If I give to the Salvation Army, I know that a major portion of it will do what it was given for, and as far as I'm concerned that's important.

[840high]

53. Thank you. I don't give to Red

Cross for that exact reason.

[demigoddess]

58. Give to food banks

local food banks. tell the religious idiots who want to discriminate to go fly a kite.

[Logical]

69. You obviously have trouble finding charities that are good and not anti-gay. nt

[shraby]

86. I have one criteria. How much do the officers of the charity make?

When they make over 100 thou. per year, that's entirely too much. They don't need my dimes...they can give back some of what they are taking, and let it go where it was intended when it was given.
Until then, about the only charity that qualifies is the Salvation Army.

[Logical]

108. If a officer can raise 2 million and is paid 100,000 I have no problem with it. nt

[JoeyT]

99. Or much more likely,

just don't particularly give a shit if their donation hurts LGBT people.

Not wanting to give money to groups that attack LGBT people = being a grinch on the new and improved DU.

[arthritisR_US]

52. I haven't given them a dime in over 30 years so

this is a no brainer for me

[Bluenorthwest]

55. I'd rather give to an organization that helps LGBT homeless youth, this year I'm recommending

Lost-n-Found Youth in Atlanta-

Lost-n-Found Youth is an Atlanta-based nonprofit corporation whose mission is to take homeless lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youths to age 26 off the street and transition them into more permanent housing.

We operate a 24/7 hotline at 678-856-7825, a Youth Center, a 6-bed 90 day housing facility, and 3-6 month host home program.

Lost-n-Found Youth is Atlanta’s only nonprofit agency actively working to take homeless LGBTQ youth off the street.

http://lnfy.org/donate/

[ColesCountyDem]

56. Then donate to your local ministerial alliance, or 'community chest', but give.

I've personally never witnessed or heard of a single anti-gay act on the part of the S.A., but I have known LOTS of LGBT people they have helped, no questions asked. If you are cold, hungry, alcohol- or drug-dependent, you may not care what the S.A.'s political stances are, because you are thrilled to find warm shelter, food and kind, supportive people who are willing to help.

[L0oniX]

61. Don't ignore them. Tell them why you won't contribute. Then walk away.

[Shemp Howard]

84. Leave the bellringers alone.

If you have good reasons not to contribute (and many here do), then don't contribute. But why in the world would you want to hassle a bellringer? Do you think they help make policy? Do you think they will be voting at the next SA board meeting?

Kindly see my post #82.

[rhett o rick]

62. I need to learn more. The SA bellringers themselves earn a little money that they need.

The SA donates to our foodbank quite a bit of the donations, and they do a lot first hand for the homeless in the community.

Does anyone know where a good place to learn more about their political agenda?

[PADemD]

63. The Salvation Army IS the food bank in our small town.

I try to give as often as I can so that people will not starve.

[Iggo]

65. I used to give a fiver, because their drug program saved a friend of mine's life.

That was before I knew about the anti-gay shit, though.

No más.

[cwydro]

95. That is just stupid.

I have gay friends that work there.

I'm gay. I've seen the good work they do.

Don't donate to a truly giving organization if it makes you feel high and mighty.

But that's stupid.

[Iggo]

110. .

[bhikkhu]

70. Done

pseudo-political religious organizations with their own private agenda, hidden behind a charitable facade, will be treated with kind amusement, but I'm certainly not funding that cause.

[SummerSnow]

73. lol...

[NJCher]

74. I just say

Thanks, but all my money goes to animal rescue.



Cher

[badtoworse]

75. Thanks, but I make my own decisions on which charities I support.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

77. +1

Yeah, I'm not big on being told who I have to ignore or support.

[WhiteAndNerdy]

98. +1

I don't give to SA, but I don't think it's appropriate to tell other people how to give. If there's important information available that could affect whether someone supports a particular charity, make that information available, but don't tell other people what to do with it.

[Stellar]

79. I didn't know that!

Thanks for sharing.

[blkmusclmachine]

87. The Salvation Army is a rightwing church. Tax free, too, of course.

And advocates of rightwing legislation.

[rhett o rick]

112. Can't the same thing be said about some of our popular churches?

I am not arguing, but would like to learn more about this. I was not aware of what you are accusing them of do to ignorance on my part. In our community, they pay the bellringers that need the money, they give a large donation to our foodbank, and they do a lot for the homeless that isn't being done by anyone else. That doesn't forgive them for bad behavior but I need more information about their right-wing ideologies.

[mackerel]

88. I'm mixed on the issue. I don't like the way they rope people into their organisation

but in my community they feed and house so many needy. There is no other organisation that feeds as many homeless and hungry.

[Omaha Steve]

89. I had put $ in the red kettle every time I passed one for decades

I posted about it several years ago. After getting my eyes opened I stopped.

K&R!

[bettyellen]

120. I found other charities- mostly food banks and homeless shelters, Planned Parenthood, and a

great organization that helps veterans gets my clothing and home goods now. I am trying to stay away from bigger orgs like Red Cross who failed at Katrina in too many ways, and are too political.

[Omaha Steve]

121. My dad hated Red Cross because of WWII and the way he was treated as a front line Vet

He had to pay for everything like coffee and doughnuts while it was free from the Salvation Army. They get my blood and that is it. I'm O positive, virus negative. So my blood is for newborns, elderly, and those with immune deficiencies from illness etc.

We are good with donating to the food banks, animal causes, DUers in trouble, etc.

Current DUers needing help:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025847858

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025842535


OS

[bettyellen]

124. I do not like how they interfered with those people helping each other during Katrina-

did you read that piece where they say they drove around empty trucks for show too. Something too political about them and Salvation Army. SA sued in NY to get the right to discriminate against gays. Screw them.
There are loads of great organizations.
For disaster relief I love Nechama- after seeing them in action locally after hurricane Sandy. Lovely people with a lean and mean operation, helping people sift through their losses and clean up in the immediate aftermath of disasters. http://www.nechama.org/

[shaayecanaan]

90. I stayed in one of their caravan parks once

so ill be giving them money. it would seem churlish otherwise.

[WillowTree]

91. Friendly reminder not to tell me what to do.

[AngryOldDem]

94. Every year, this sucks for me.

I used to give because I saw first hand how the Salvation Army would move homeless singles and families into first, transitional housing and then permanent housing. They played a big part in moving people out of the shelter system.

But I can't reconcile this with their stance on the LBGT community.

Will avoid the bell-ringers this year.

[indivisibleman]

101. Giving to bell ringers is two things

impulsive giving and a holiday tradition for many people.
I don't care for either but some people like to give this way and I am not going to say they shouldn't.
My giving is planned and never compulsive. This attitude has protected me for years from impulsive giving and the pressure by others to give just because if you don't you are being selfish or unchristian. All I have to say is, "all my giving is planned and I don't give to anyone immediately upon request." This ends all argument and they move on.
So I don't like SA for two reasons, their regular petition for impulsive given and their political activity on radical right-wing positions.

[Yo_Mama]

102. Well, I will continue to give to the Salvation Army because of the good they do with the money

It's an imperfect world. That's sad. But I believe that most of the money I give to the Salvation Army is very well spent, and that's the best I can expect in an imperfect world.

[closeupready]

113. Thanks. I ignore them every year; will do so this one, too.

K&R

[Odin2005]

123. I get angry when I see them using kids and disabled adults as bell-ringers.

Exploiting the vulnerable to fund Theocracy.

[Ink Man]

127. Wow!

I'll drop a extra $20 bucks in the kettle tonight.

I feel sorry for many of you.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Drunken Irishman]

128. This thread is pitting groups against each other.

Just read the replies - there's a lot of people who have either been helped by the SA or know someone who's been helped. They obviously have done good things and telling people to not donate due to their views on gays openly hurts the people who receive that funding. So, you're basically saying: pick a side - you either love the gays or you hate 'em if you give. I've even seen people say they give to animal rights groups over the SA. Cool - but how does that help those who are homeless or down on their luck?

The truth of the matter is that in many communities, especially smaller ones, the SA is often the only hope for those who are struggling. If it's not the SA, it's another religious organization - whether it's the Catholic soup kitchens or the Mormon welfare squares. Do we not give to them, too, because of their stances?

Does that really help a community more than it hurts another?

Maybe if liberals could start something as equally strong as the SA - something as large with the fundraising capabilities - you know, an alternative, then we could give to them, instead. But the problem is that there isn't anything equal to the SA ... not unless you're looking at local churches, potentially Catholic charities, and DU doesn't agree with them, too. So, instead of telling people to not give to the SA, put that energy and $$$ into starting something that can take its place. Because, from what I can tell, there really isn't anything comparable in the charity game nationally to the SA ... and certainly nothing like that with liberal roots.