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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSorry, no. This is not rape.
Imagine this: A man woos a woman to bed with tales of his riches, fast cars and a vacation home in Monaco. But he actually lives in his mother’s basement.
Or this: A seemingly wealthy widow convinces a younger man to sleep with her on the notion that they may marry and he’ll inherit her money. In reality, she’s broke.
In both cases, someone lied about his or her status in order to have sex with someone else.
Under a bill recently proposed by a south Jersey lawmaker, such actions would not only be considered dishonest. They could prompt charges of rape.
Earlier this month, Assemblyman Troy Singleton (D-Burlington) introduced the bill (A3908), which would create the crime of “sexual assault by fraud,” which it defines as “an act of sexual penetration to which a person has given consent because the actor has misrepresented the purpose of the act or has represented he is someone he is not.”
Singleton decided to introduce the legislation after talking to Florence resident Mischele Lewis, who had been duped into paying $5,000 to her boyfriend, Cherry Hill resident William Allen Jordan, for what he claimed was a security clearance. Jordan said he was a British military official, but it turned out he was a serial bigamist and scam artist who pleaded guilty to defrauding Lewis on Nov. 10.
Prosecutors had initially tried to charge Jordan with sexual assault by coercion, but a grand jury refused to indict him on that charge.
<snip>
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/11/rape_by_fraud_nj_lawmaker_introduces_bill_to_make_it_a_crime.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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LeftinOH
(5,351 posts)re-defined as rape after the fact. People lie about themselves to get some action? Yep, All. The. Time.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)It's not impossible to hook up for some action when you're being honest about who and what you are...
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)So in other words, an act of consensual sex becomes rape if the man lies about how much money he has?
Do you have idea how many people, male and female, lie on their on-line dating profiles? We'll end up with half the population in prison.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)And not even then, as I reflect a bit.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)No need for this ridiculous new law.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Much as spreading an STD unbeknownst to the partner is...?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Yet still fraudulent. A misrepresentation. This is where nuance comes into play and the thought process begins... hopefully.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It's worse if you do it twice.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)This is dumb...does it apply to women who misrepresent...in areas of flirtation, there's quite a bit of dishonesty, usuall little white lies, in play.
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)This kind of extreme bullshit is not helpful.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)If I go to a bar and pick up a woman and lie to her about having millions of dollars, and she sleeps with me, I'm not a rapist. I'm a liar and a dumbass, but not a rapist.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)... fashion misrepresented myself in a hookup. Never.
Have hookups led to something more? A couple times. But even then we both went into it with no expectation that it would lead to something more.
I have this somewhat irrational hatred of liars. NOTHING pisses me off more than a liar.
Just thought I would mention that since these kind of things always lead to the "everybody does it" defense. And that simply is not true.
As to this law, if written too broadly it could readily be abused. But I can think of scenarios in which "fraudalent rape" would be a highly appropriate charge. I believe there was a recent instance in which an a man used a disguise to get his ex-wife to sleep with him. That definitely sounds like a form of rape to me.
stone space
(6,498 posts)The whole notion of consensual rape when applied to adults seems bizarre.
Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew
A man has been sentenced to 18 months in prison after telling a woman that he was also Jewish
A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.
Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.
When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.
Although Kashur was initially charged with rape and indecent assault, this was changed to a charge of rape by deception as part of a plea bargain arrangement.
Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.
The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.
snip------------------------
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)then waiting to see if they are genuine shouldn't be an issue. People need to exercise patience, not cry rape or fraud. Why do they want their sex lives as part of a public record?
It's simple: if sex was consensual, it wasn't rape.
dilby
(2,273 posts)I usually portray myself as more of an average to below average person in dating profiles with a firm grasp of the English language. I am more interested in meeting women who are into intelligence than how much money I make, there are a lot of gold diggers out there who have no aspirations in life than having someone else take care of them, this is with both men and women.
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)Called up a woman and asked her out after hearing her rich husband's obituary.
He was once a used car salesman, so that probably helps.
dilby
(2,273 posts)He would have a date every night and sometimes two on Saturday and Sunday. I asked him how in the world he could afford to take women out that much and he told me he makes them pay. I was pretty shocked when I heard that, I am kind of old school and if I ask someone out it means I want to pay.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Dishonest and despicable? Sure. Not rape, though.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)If someone forces another person to have sex by force - that's rape - no question.
If someone forces another person to have sex by threatening violence - again rape.
If someone forces another person to have sex by threatening consequences (i.e. you will be fired. You will lose a promotion) - that's rape.
If someone forces another person to have sex by drugging the person and having your way with their unconscious body - that's rape
If someone forces another person to have sex by getting them drunk and pushing them in a state of lowered inhibitions (turning a no into a yes) - that's probably rape.
But now we are getting down into areas where it's less clear.
What if a person threatened to blackmail a person if they didn't have sex with them, but they didn't actually have any incriminating evidence- is that rape? It's certainly blackmail, but is it actionable?
By the same token if a person says "I can get you that big promotion, but you have to give me something," but that person is only pretending to have that ability is that rape?
I don't know. I don't think its as open and shut as the original article suggests.
Bryant
branford
(4,462 posts)What about if you don't have sex with me "I will break-up with you" or "I'll tell everyone on campus you're b@itch?"
To be rape, I think the consequences have to be violence or something actionable in law (in your examples, employment consequences are violations Title VII of the Civil Rights Act and related federal and state laws).
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)You can't make laws based on a continuum - you have to use specific means of telling if someone has broken the law
Bryant
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There are options beyond rape and nothing.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I think this is a reason sexual assault is being used more frequently because of the question "what is rape". Is it genital contact, something going into something else, etc, always of course without consent.
Sexual assault is a broader term, should be used imo because otherwise the argument deteriorates into "rape is only..." where sexual assault is more applicable.
This is not to say there is no "rape" but not getting hung up on the terms and ignoring the crime, the issues of non-consensual and assault.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Nine
(1,741 posts)Here is a fictional example I would call rape by fraud:
http://whatculture.com/film/10-movies-with-questionable-moral-messages.php/6
I could imagine other rape by fraud scenarios other than the silly strawman ones people are positing on this thread. I have no opinion about the specific bill, such as whether it is written too broadly. But I absolutely think rape by fraud is a legitimate concept in general.
branford
(4,462 posts)Distilling the academic concept of "rape by fraud" into an enforceable criminal statue in the USA is exceedingly difficult, and may also encounter other constitutional problems.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Perhaps it already has been done somewhere. I don't believe it is beyond the capability of competent lawmakers.
branford
(4,462 posts)but they are fairly limited and rarely prosecuted.
Apart from First Amendment concerns, the precision and notice requirements of criminal law are likely far too exacting to permit broad "rape by fraud" laws in the USA, at least instances that are not already covered by other statutes.
For instance, is basic hyperbole or exaggeration fraud. Would "sleep with me, I'm the best lover ever" be considered fraud? What if you increased or decreased your stated number of sexual partners? If you slept with 3 previous people, but you told your new partner 2 or 4, would that be rape?
Nine
(1,741 posts)Of course "sleep with me, I'm the best lover ever" is not rape. On the other hand, wouldn't you agree that the Revenge of the Nerds scene is rape?
There are always challenges in writing any law. Legislators don't just throw up their hands and say, "Welp, can't be done."
branford
(4,462 posts)and just as frequently they are thrown out by the courts. Populism and good intentions, no matter how noble, are not a defense to violations of the Constitution or basic precepts like vagueness and specificity.
I'm an attorney, and I can confidently tell you that criminal fraud is exceptionally difficult to prove except in the most egregious circumstances, and civil fraud is not much easier (I'm a commercial litigator). Applying these already dense and difficult rules to sexual encounters presents more than simple "challenges."
For instance, you casually mock my "best lover ever" hyperbole example as clearly not rape. I agree. The question is why, and how would you carve-out such matters from a statute without creating exceptions that swallow the rule. If a criminal statute does not clearly define what is improper, it will be legally unenforceable.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Do you consider the Revenge of the Nerds scenario - where the man wore a costume identical to the costume of the woman's boyfriend in order to deceive her into thinking she was having sex with the boyfriend - to be rape? I do. I think most people would. I refer to that scene because it's rather well known, even if it requires some suspension of disbelief.
Could such a crime be prosecuted under existing rape laws? If not, don't we need a new law to cover this scenario?
branford
(4,462 posts)in some jurisdictions, particularly since consent may be withdrawn at any time, and thereafter anything else would be rape as commonly understood.
Conversely, many a jurist would say if you're otherwise mentally competent, but don't bother to check the actual identity of who you're engaging in sexual relations with, the criminal courts are the the appropriate venue for redress.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)you can't really be complaining about strawmen.
Maybe in Revenge of the Nerds or the Old Testament, this sort of shit actually happens, but in reality, "I pretended to be someone else and then you had sex with me thinking I was that person" probably has less than .0000000000000001% chance of actually occurring. In fact it's so damn unlikely that crafting an entire law around it seems pointless.
Nine
(1,741 posts)As I said, I used the Nerd scene as reference because even though it requires some suspension of disbelief, it is widely known. One must assume that the people who made that movie did not think of the scene as a rape scene. It was a very popular movie so it's plausible that most moviegoers did not think of it as rape. Yet most people these days DO think of it as rape because views have evolved. People once believed rape was not possible within a marriage. There are many other ways that views on rape have changed over time - in my opinion, for the better.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And so it was rape anyway, as you note.
Like I said, I just don't think "I had sex with someone thinking they were someone else" is the sort of thing that actually happens all that much. I don't see a ton of evidence, here, that the law as it is currently written can't cover all those sorts of situations, should they actually crop up.
As for the movie, there are LOTS of tone-deaf or otherwise wildly inappropriate things in movies from the 80s, for instance, which would never fly today.
Nine
(1,741 posts)And in that example, it would not have been far-fetched to imagine a woman slightly drunk or even just very tired and groggy who was competent to give consent to sex but unaware that the man coming onto her in a dark room was not her boyfriend who had been in the room moments earlier. And if the man's intent was to deceive her, I do indeed think that was rape.
I really don't think this is as far-fetched as people are making out. Maybe you don't know of many real-world cases in the US because there aren't that many rape-by-deception statutes that would make such cases public knowledge. You don't think a couple frat guys have ever pulled a "bait and switch" on someone? The examples I cited also included a criminal (Minsky) who was difficult to prosecute under existing laws. I mentioned doctors who falsely represented sexual contact as a medical treatment.
Really I find it much more hard to swallow the idea that some guy is going to end up in jail for lying about his bank account. It seems like a sensationalist scare tactic that would be used by the same people who said an Equal Rights Amendment would make all public restrooms unisex.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)but if that actually happens, it's rape. I'm not convinced there needs to be an entire new law around it, because I just don't think it's a real-world situation that happens.
The situation with the Doctors is different, and again, I suspect they could be easily convicted under current law.
stone space
(6,498 posts)I could imagine other rape by fraud scenarios other than the silly strawman ones people are positing on this thread.
Dude actually got sentenced to 18 months for being Arab.
Nine
(1,741 posts)After Israel was widely condemned in the international press, due to perceived anti-Arab bias in the conviction, the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain, in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a Jewish woman allegedly left bruised in an apartment building stairway. The court sent the victim to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted Kashur on the lesser charge. Prosecutors agreed to the plea bargain in order to spare the woman a long cross-examination that might undermine her evidence.
At any rate, that was a different country, and there WAS an outcry. There are miscarriages of justice in this country too, but I don't see a scenario like that being any more likely to happen than any other miscarriage of justice.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Now telling me you have a condom on and not having one on, that's coming closer to rape. (Edit: And doing so if you know you have HIV without telling me should be attempted murder.)
sendero
(28,552 posts)... " would you sleep with me for a million dollars? the answer "yes". Would you sleep with me for $10. the answer "what do you think I am, a whore"?
The answer is self -evident and this proposed legislation is ridiculous.
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)How about people that get plastic surgery? Does it apply to the clothing you wear? This law seems way too ambiguous to be practical.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)you are a gold digger.
rocktivity
(44,571 posts)Of course, I've always called it "just trying to get laid"...
rocktivity
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
Vinca
(50,236 posts)Nine
(1,741 posts)A man sneaked into a room where a woman was sleeping after he saw her boyfriend leave. "The woman said she awoke to the sensation of someone having sex with her and assumed it was her boyfriend."
The act was rape regardless of the deception because the woman was asleep to begin with and could not consent. But if she had been awake and merely deceived, I don't see how anyone could not call that rape.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Allen_Minsky
One man (Minsky) preyed on women by developing an elaborate ruse where the woman believed a loved one was going to go to prison for years for a (fictional) hit-and-run accident unless the woman "bribed" a witness by having sex with him. "In the 1982 cases Minsky was difficult to prosecute because there was no weapon or threat of bodily injury."
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20100804.html
"In the U.S., a number of prosecutions under these laws have involved medical professionals who fraudulently represented that sexual relations were part of a medically-beneficial treatment that the complainant would be undergoing."
I think the rationale for rape-by-deception laws is best explained here:
http://lawweb.usc.edu/centers/clhc/events/feature/documents/Rubenfeld.pdf
Thus “rape-by-deception” is a live and intensifying issue in criminal law. The problem it poses is easy to describe. Most people don’t think “rape-by-deception” is actually rape at all. I’ll bet the reader doesn’t think so. Neither, as a rule, do Anglo-American courts. The problem is that we ought to think sex-by-deception is rape, and courts ought to so hold, given what we say rape is.
Rape, according to a widely shared view, means sex without the victim’s consent. Rape was often defined in just these terms by common law judges; it is explicitly so defined in many modern statutes, including those of the United Kingdom; and it is frequently so understood in contemporary usage, both lay and legal. But sex-by-deception is sex without consent, because a consent obtained by deception, as courts have long and repeatedly held outside of rape law, is “no consent” at all.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)badtoworse
(5,957 posts)From a cartoon I saw in a men's magazine many years ago.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)We'd be rid of many GOPers 
ncjustice80
(948 posts)The woman would never have consented had she knwon the truth. Sex minus fully informed, sober, and enthusiastic consent = rape.