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justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 08:49 PM Nov 2014

Shadow Trial: Prosecutors in Ferguson violated our right to an open criminal justice system.

This move to morph a grand jury inquiry, which is typically a short rundown of the case for the prosecution, into a trial-like parade of mountains of evidence raises serious issues about the rights of Michael Brown’s family to have a fair process for their dead son, as well as highlighting concerns about unequal treatment of different kinds of criminal defendants. But seemingly lost in this jumble of legal concerns is the fact that McCulloch’s decision to shift the truth-seeking function of a criminal trial into the secret realm of the grand jury room violated another set of constitutional rights—ours. It violated our collective public right to an open criminal justice system. And if ever there was a trial to which Americans deserved a meaningful right of access, Wilson’s trial was it. Instead, we have a post-hoc document dump.

In the 1980 case of Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, the Supreme Court declared that the press and public have a First Amendment right of access to criminal trials. In the words of Justice William Brennan, “Open trials are bulwarks of our free and democratic government: Public access to court proceedings is one of the numerous ‘checks and balances’ of our system, because ‘contemporaneous review in the forum of public opinion is an effective restraint on possible abuse of judicial power.’ ”

This right of open trials belongs not just to the accused but to all of us. It is, the Supreme Court said in the 1986 case Press Enterprise v. Superior Court, “a shared right of the accused and the public, the common concern being the assurance of fairness.” And while those accused of crimes have a constitutional right to a “speedy and open trial,” they do not, the court has said, have a right to a private trial.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/11/ferguson_grand_jury_investigation_a_shadow_trial_violates_the_public_s_right.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_tw_top

When did so many of us (that's the Royal us, by the by) accept that what happened to the Brown family, and us by extension, was okay with these proceedings? I get why the racists are loving it, it gives them, in their minds, carte blanche--they get to watch black people get killed with no consequences. But does our judicial system mean so little to us that even DU'ers are proclaiming that this was fair when it so obviously wasn't? Can the one's that believe that this should have gone to trial sue? Can Brown's parent's sue because they had their Constitutional rights violated by this scam of a grand jury?

It's disheartening to see so many long-time DU'ers consider what McCulloch did as fair (and in another breath proclaim Snowden a hero). Let alone that legally, constitutionally, this family, and us, have a right to a public trial.
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Shadow Trial: Prosecutors in Ferguson violated our right to an open criminal justice system. (Original Post) justiceischeap Nov 2014 OP
Secretive, occult dealings are not justice csziggy Nov 2014 #1
I'm convinced that a trial would have done that community and many others a world of good justiceischeap Nov 2014 #2
Exactly - hiding the evidence has angered people as much as the shooting did csziggy Nov 2014 #4
Out in the open? There hasn't been a more transparent grand jury ever JonLP24 Nov 2014 #48
During the process all we had were selected leads csziggy Nov 2014 #49
Pretty much all grand jury proceedings are closed to the public JonLP24 Nov 2014 #50
I'm talking about the legal requirement of closed grand jury proceedings csziggy Nov 2014 #53
Grand juries are usually required to secret by law JonLP24 Nov 2014 #54
I meant to say "I'm NOT talking about the legal requirement of closed grand jury proceedings" csziggy Nov 2014 #55
Grand juries are not public. pipoman Nov 2014 #3
Sure, sure... if that helps you sleep better at night. justiceischeap Nov 2014 #5
I suspect he knew what the grand jury determined... pipoman Nov 2014 #8
Can you say with 100% certainty that he actually presented all the evidence to the grand jury? justiceischeap Nov 2014 #11
I trust that the grand jury heard the evidence pipoman Nov 2014 #16
Wilson, the Defendant here, was never cross examined. woolldog Nov 2014 #18
Not extraordinary or unbelievable or rare or even unusual in a grand jury proceeding. .. pipoman Nov 2014 #21
Um, yes it is. woolldog Nov 2014 #22
By whom? pipoman Nov 2014 #23
By whom? woolldog Nov 2014 #24
So he was questioned by the prosecutor? pipoman Nov 2014 #25
Yes. woolldog Nov 2014 #26
So let me make sure I have this right.... pipoman Nov 2014 #27
He conducted it as if it were a direct exam. woolldog Nov 2014 #28
Isn't it a direct examination by definition? pipoman Nov 2014 #29
He's the Defendant in the proceeding, which is captioned Missouri v. Wilson woolldog Nov 2014 #33
The defendant can always be called in a gj case pipoman Nov 2014 #35
You are completely missing the point. woolldog Nov 2014 #37
I don't believe it matters pipoman Nov 2014 #41
In other words: woolldog Nov 2014 #44
I'm not defending anything, pipoman Nov 2014 #45
Of course you are. woolldog Nov 2014 #46
Keep lying to yourself if you wish. .. pipoman Nov 2014 #47
Seriously? Again, you are wrong. woolldog Nov 2014 #52
What felony? Try "alleged" (if you can identify death penalty level felony). nt IdaBriggs Nov 2014 #17
Yes, if person 'a' runs out of a bank with alarms sounding, with a bag of money, pipoman Nov 2014 #19
Nice strawman rufus dog Nov 2014 #31
yep pipoman Nov 2014 #36
Is jaywalking now a felony? rufus dog Nov 2014 #30
Assaulting/battering a police officer is a felony pipoman Nov 2014 #32
again you got nothing rufus dog Nov 2014 #34
See, the cop gets to be the aggressor, it's his job pipoman Nov 2014 #38
Wrong rufus dog Nov 2014 #39
Have you read the transcripts? pipoman Nov 2014 #40
are you referring to the part about Wilson rufus dog Nov 2014 #43
Give up with that one. Not worth it. He's so fucking transparent. morningfog Nov 2014 #51
Someone asked me to point to what I consider open racism KitSileya Nov 2014 #57
Help him sleep? More like a wet dream. morningfog Nov 2014 #15
The whole point is that a grand jury was not the best way to handle this csziggy Nov 2014 #6
It followed Missouri criminal procedure, and again pipoman Nov 2014 #10
Michael Baden wasn't allowed to testify aint_no_life_nowhere Nov 2014 #7
The problem is, since they didn't do measurements justiceischeap Nov 2014 #12
I have been asking this question a lot BrotherIvan Nov 2014 #9
The public does not have a right to have Wilson on trial Gman Nov 2014 #13
You missed the entire gist of the article justiceischeap Nov 2014 #14
No, it wasn't a trial, it was a grand jury pipoman Nov 2014 #20
'and in another breath proclaim Snowden a hero Ichingcarpenter Nov 2014 #42
nobody has a legal or constitutional right to a public trial of anyone without probable cause TorchTheWitch Nov 2014 #56

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
1. Secretive, occult dealings are not justice
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:01 PM
Nov 2014

As upset as people were when George Zimmerman got off, they understood why because they got to see the process. They knew that Angela Corey's prosecutors threw the case, so they were still angry. But they were not riot in the street, burn the town down angry.

We all still know that McCullogh is as incompetent as Corey at getting true justice - but we're even madder because the grand jury process is hidden - aside from the carefully manipulated leaks - and that both sides did not get to present their cases. No one questioned Darren Wilson on the validity of his claims, no one asked additional questions of the experts, the many eye witnesses. We only get to read the transcripts of one person asking questions with no adversarial counter to that one sided presentation.

I'm an old white woman and I am pissed at the injustice done to the Michael Brown family, even more pissed than I was about the injustice done to Trayvon Martin's family, and to every other family who young children of color have been killed by cops with no recourse. Every time this happens we ALL lose more of our rights.

This has to STOP.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
2. I'm convinced that a trial would have done that community and many others a world of good
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:04 PM
Nov 2014

I'm also convinced that even if they'd lost the trial, at least there'd be a public record of what happened for people to point to and say, "This. This is NOT supposed to happen." and then get on with their lives.

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
4. Exactly - hiding the evidence has angered people as much as the shooting did
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:09 PM
Nov 2014

And people will stay angry until there is some sort of trial. If for no other reason having a civil trial would help because the evidence can be brought out into the public view.

If the Feguson Police Department and the local prosecutors can't deal with having these things out in the open, they need to be in different lines of work.

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
49. During the process all we had were selected leads
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 05:44 PM
Nov 2014

That built the anger. The various leaks seems almost tailored to increase the resentment against the police.

If the entire proceeding had been open there may not have been the huge explosion at the time of the announcement of no indictment.

To compare, during the Zimmerman trial, people were upset but they could watch the process and see how it was trending. When the verdict came down, they were angry but they also had a better understanding as to why the jury had come to that verdict.

Releasing the grand jury information after the decision is NOT being transparent. And the more I read, the angrier I get. To top it off, there is the prosecutorial misconduct highlighted by Lawrence O'Donnell:
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/shocking-mistake-in-darren-wilson-grand-jury-364273731666

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
50. Pretty much all grand jury proceedings are closed to the public
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 05:55 PM
Nov 2014

I'm not aware of one that wasn't.

Releasing all transcripts, documents, and audio evidence is unusual and not aware of a similar case. It isn't a secret that grand juries are secret.

As far as misconduct, you do realize the rules are different as far as instructions? Prosecutors can also ask leading questions & present illegally obtained evidence that wouldn't be used in a regular trial

I'll have to watch the Lawrence video but from the gist I imagine it has something to do with this

“So, the statute I gave you,” said Assistant Prosecuting Attorney Kathi Alizadeh, “if you want to fold that in half just so that, you know, don't necessarily rely on that because there is a portion of that that doesn't comply with the law.”

It’s not every day that a prosecutor tells a grand jury to ignore the state law, but there was a good reason for Alizadeh and Assistant Prosecuting Attorney Sheila Whirley to deliver the message. The Missouri law would allow police to kill an unarmed suspect fleeing a felony, even though the U.S. Supreme Court has said that is unconstitutional.

Legal experts and some state legislators say changing the state law is one of the most obvious reforms that could be put in place to address issues raised by the death of Michael Brown at the hands of Officer Wilson.

Chad Flanders, a Saint Louis University law professor, said, “There’s an important point about Missouri law which we should all agree on: The Missouri statute on law enforcement officer’s use of force needs to be changed, and now.”

<snip>

The strange moment in the grand jury came last Friday around 3 p.m. as Whirley was explaining to the grand jury the law as it should apply in deciding whether to indict Wilson. According to the transcript of the hearings, this is what transpired:

“Real quick, can I interrupt about something?” interjected Alizadeh. “Previously, in the very beginning of this process, I printed out a statute for you that was, the statute in Missouri for the use of force to affect an arrest.

“So if you all want to get those out. What we have discovered, and we have been going along with this, doing our research, is that the statute in the State of Missouri does not comply with the case law.

“....And so the statute for the use of force to affect an arrest in the state of Missouri does not comply with Missouri Supreme Court, I'm sorry United States Supreme Court cases....

“So the statute I gave you, if you want to fold that in half just so that you know don't necessarily rely on that because there is a portion of that that doesn't comply with the law.

“…I don't want you to get confused and don’t rely on that copy or that print-out of the statute that I've given you a long time ago.”

A grand juror asks, “So we’re to disregard this?”

Alizadehanswers: “It is not entirely incorrect or inaccurate, but there is something in it that’s not correct, ignore it totally.”

When a grand juror asks more questions,

Whirley chimes in, “We don’t want to get into a law class.”
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/grand-jury-wrangled-confusing-instructions

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
53. I'm talking about the legal requirement of closed grand jury proceedings
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 07:33 PM
Nov 2014

I'm talking about the public need for cases like this to be out in the open so they see that justice is done.

There are cases where a closed door grand jury is needed. But a case like the Michael Brown homicide needs daylight and the public needs to know that all that can be done to arrive at that justice has been done.

That is why the comparison to the George Zimmerman case is relevant. It was open, the public could see what happened and hear the legal arguments for and against his guilt. When the verdict came down people were not happy, but they had the satisfaction that they had seen the process.

Unless there is some other legal proceeding against Darren Wilson or the Ferguson Police Department, there will never be public satisfaction. There will always be questions. And we can see from the transcripts that overt legal mistakes were made by the prosecutors - mistakes that could not have passed without challenge in an open court.

You have the same section that Lawrence O'Donnell pointed out. That Missouri law had been declared unconstitutional in 1985 but the prosecutors in the grand jury still let the jury listen to Wilson's testimony with the impression that the law was still valid. Although they later called back the law, the way it was done obviously left questions in the jurors' minds - and the prosecutors did not give the answers the jurors needed to satisfy their questions.

Either those prosecutors have a poor grasp of the law or they willfully mislead the jurors.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
54. Grand juries are usually required to secret by law
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 07:40 PM
Nov 2014

If there was an indictment, none of this information would have been released to save it for trial.

Like I said in another thread this is above my area of expertise but if prosecutors are telling juries to ignore Missouri state law then the law needs to be changed.

Even though legal experts agree that this subsection of the law has been at odds with the U.S. Constitution for almost three decades, the language is still in state law. In fact, the new criminal code that takes effect in 2017 retains the language.

That is the language that Flanders, Goldman and Sen. Jamilah Nasheed want to change.

Continuing confusion

Even though the legislature had not changed the law, the Missouri Supreme Court adopted a new jury instruction that complies with Garner. It does not allow a police officer to claim he was entitled to shoot an unarmed fleeing felon.

But Flanders and other legal experts think that Garner and the jury instruction don’t solve the problem.

Flanders said the prosecutors in the grand jury actually were wrong to say Garner trumps the law. Garner was the constitutional standard for a civil lawsuit. Missouri does not have to criminalize all police action that is unconstitutional. So, Flanders and other lawyers believe the state law still is in effect.

If Wilson had been indicted using the Garner rule against shooting an unarmed fleeing felon, he could have challenged any conviction by relying on the Missouri law that permits an officer to shoot an unarmed suspect.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/grand-jury-wrangled-confusing-instructions

Its not so cut-and-dried as it appears but in any case, it is hard to argue misconduct when they were told to disregard it -- maybe poorly but told to do so at any rate.

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
55. I meant to say "I'm NOT talking about the legal requirement of closed grand jury proceedings"
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 08:25 PM
Nov 2014

Screwed up, replying and finishing up the cooking for our dinner at the same time.

At this point unless there is a civil proceeding, I can't see anything happening to Darren Wilson other than the lifetime notoriety he's earned. He won't be tried under Missouri law, he almost certainly will not be tried for federal civil rights violations. He will be yet another cop who shot a young man without sufficient reason and got away with homicide.

Another reason for people to stay angry. I just hope it becomes another reason to work for more justice.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
3. Grand juries are not public.
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:08 PM
Nov 2014

Some evidence presented to grand juries isn't admissible in a criminal case. The process is designed to be a sort of mediator in cases exactly like this one. The prosecutor saw no cause so rather than subjective dismissal sent it to a grand jury to determine. That grand jury found no criminal intent or laws violated either.

So no, grand juries must stay and remain private. ..not secret, members of the public were present, they're just not supposed to disclose the information.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
5. Sure, sure... if that helps you sleep better at night.
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:14 PM
Nov 2014

If you read the testimony, it's clear from the moment Brown's body started bleeding out on the street, this case was not being investigated like it mattered. Then it got into the hands of the prosecutor who didn't even want to look at evidence, let alone impanel a grand jury. He'd made up his mind before what evidence was left to collect was collected. Then when his hand was forced, he proclaims he gave the grand jury ALL THE EVIDENCE and all that evidence was presented to the grand jury, when in fact, that is not generally what is done at a grand jury. The prosecutor cherry picks his best evidence to show the grand jury and asks for an indictment, McCulloch didn't even ask for an indictment.

And thus, no one got justice in this case. And I'm not arguing that grand juries should be open to the public, I'm saying grand juries shouldn't be used as private trials (and this grand jury very much appears to have been a private trial--and I'm not the only one saying that, plenty of lawyer's and legal scholars are saying it too).

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
8. I suspect he knew what the grand jury determined...
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:51 PM
Nov 2014

That a person fleeing a felony can be justifiably killed. If it weren't for Mr. Brown's own actions he would be alive. Pretend you are in a civil case and apply blame. What percentage of blame do you assign Mr. Brown? Hint, most people would assign well over half... Maybe you don't like that and if enough others wish it changed, it can be. Until then. ...

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
11. Can you say with 100% certainty that he actually presented all the evidence to the grand jury?
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:21 PM
Nov 2014

He doesn't have to because it's not a trial. With the way this was handled, we'll never know for sure if he presented all the evidence he had to the grand jury (unless there happens to be a civil or federal trial).

This is why he shouldn't have used the grand jury in the way he did. He only presented to the public what he showed to the grand jury. Now that the process is over, I'd love to see if a FOAA request could be done for all the evidence to see if he did indeed present it all or if he only presented the evidence he knew was favorable for Wilson.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
16. I trust that the grand jury heard the evidence
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 11:54 PM
Nov 2014

But believe this boils down to one question. Was Mr. Brown fleeing the commission of a felony? If the answer is yes, nothing else really matters.

Furthermore if additional evidence is found a grand jury can be reconvene or the prosecution can file against Wilson. If it went to trial without more than there is now, Wilson would most likely be acquitted and could never be retried....another reason a grand jury was a good idea under the circumstances.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
18. Wilson, the Defendant here, was never cross examined.
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 11:59 PM
Nov 2014

That is extraordinary. Unbelievable actually. The deck was stacked in his favor by the prosecutors and it was done deliberately.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
21. Not extraordinary or unbelievable or rare or even unusual in a grand jury proceeding. ..
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 12:54 AM
Nov 2014

It is what grand juries do. .

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
22. Um, yes it is.
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 12:56 AM
Nov 2014

You have no clue what you're talking about. Defendants rarely even testify in grand jury proceedings. And when they do, you better believe they're cross examined.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
24. By whom?
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:04 AM
Nov 2014

By the prosecutor for Chrissakes. Instead he was too busy cross examining the eyewitnesses and finding contradictions in their statements. He completely ignored contradictions in Wilson's statements. The process was rigged. And I am a former prosecutor.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
27. So let me make sure I have this right....
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:36 AM
Nov 2014

You, a former prosecutor, are saying,

"Wilson, the Defendant here, was never cross examined."

cross examined?...well....ok...

I asked, "cross examined by whom"...you respond "the prosecutor. ..", I asked if the prosecutor examined the witness, you said yes...

Now tell me again who didn't "cross examine" the witness?


 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
33. He's the Defendant in the proceeding, which is captioned Missouri v. Wilson
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:55 AM
Nov 2014

While technically the questioning of the Defendant is a cross it was not conducted that way. That is my point. At a minimum, he was not confronted on his contradictory statements. His questioning was not conducted the way it would be conducted in any other grad jury proceeding where the Defendant testifies, which is unusual in itself. In Missouri prosecutors do not even have to (and I assume usually don't) present exculpatory evidence.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
35. The defendant can always be called in a gj case
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 02:00 AM
Nov 2014

The defendant can take the 5th, but has to take the stand if called.

Ultimately the first post I responded to was erroneous, the defendant was examined by the prosecutor. You may not like the examination, but he was examined.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
37. You are completely missing the point.
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 02:10 AM
Nov 2014

which is not whether or not he was "examined," but whether a proper cross examination, the kind of examination that would occur for any other defendant, which would be conducted using leading questions, and in which he would be confronted with his prior inconsistent statements, was conducted here. It wasn't. Instead the witnesses were effectively the ones who were cross examined. You won't argue the substance because you know that no other Defendant would get that kind of preferential treatment. You want badly to believe that the system worked. It didn't. The result was preordained because the system here was rigged. It wouldn't work that way for anyone else.

The Defendant can be called but it is extremely unusual. And in a state like Missiouri where you don't need to put on exculpatory evidence you would not normally call the Defendant.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
41. I don't believe it matters
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 09:09 AM
Nov 2014

I believe Wilson has a positive defense that made prosecution stupid and conviction impossible. Police immunities combined with Browns irrefutable (by any objective person) commission of a felony minutes before his confrontation with Wilson, made Wilson's actions justifiable.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
44. In other words:
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 12:26 PM
Nov 2014

You defend the process because you like the result it yielded. That is not the way the justice system is supposed to work. If the process is not fair and impartial, if we change the rules depending on the defendant, then the results lose their legitimacy and the moral authority of the process is undermined.

The prosecutor thought it important to explore the inconsistencies in the eyewitnesses testimony. He didn't find it important to explore the Defendants inconsistencies. Instead the Defendant advanced his self serving, conclusory narrative without any challenge at all. You realize no other defendant, not you nor your loved ones would get that kind of preferential treatment right? What happened is very strange and robs the process of any cloak of legitimacy.

btw, commission of a felony does not give the officer carte blanche to shoot a suspect. Nor do "officer immunities"

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
45. I'm not defending anything,
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:33 PM
Nov 2014

I am recognizing the reality of the situation and the law as it is now and was when this happened.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
46. Of course you are.
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:55 PM
Nov 2014

You are defending the fact that the process was stacked in favor of the Defendant here, and that this Defendant was treated in a manner no other Defendant would be, no other Defendant will be in Missouri, after this case, because you agree with the end result: no indictment, no trial. The fact that the prosecutor rigged the process to create that end result doesn't phase you in the least. It bothers me because it undermines the legitimacy of the legal system. You should be bothered by it if you are connected with the legal system in any way.

There was more than enough probable cause here, which is the legal standard. And a prosecutor doing his job properly would have had no trouble getting an indictment. The prosecutor here didn't want an indictment, but wanted political cover, so he took it to the grand jury and handled the case in such a way that it would create the outcome he wanted. That is outrageous and a perversion of the system.

I repeat, the law as it is now does not give an officer carte blanche to execute a felony suspect. If prosecutors (and juries) simply accepted the self serving word of Defendants, as happened here, and granted Defendants the deference they did here, then no one would be convicted of anything.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
47. Keep lying to yourself if you wish. ..
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 05:25 PM
Nov 2014

The combination of complete lack of provable criminal intent and immunity given agents of the State, equals positive defense...and no bill by the gj....like it or not....

Oh, and "probable cause" isn't "the legal standard", it is "a legal standard" that has nothing to do with this case....another "legal standard" is "criminal intent"...

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
52. Seriously? Again, you are wrong.
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 07:15 PM
Nov 2014

The legal standard for a grand jury to indict a Defendant is probable cause. That is the entire point of the grand jury proceeding, to determine whether there is probable cause to support a bill.

probable cause has nothing to do with this case?

I don't know where you're getting your info from (sounds like you are pulling it out of your ass), but you have no clue.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
19. Yes, if person 'a' runs out of a bank with alarms sounding, with a bag of money,
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 12:26 AM
Nov 2014

Person 'a' doesn't need to be convicted of robbing the bank to be arrested. If person 'a' decides to run from police and ends up dead, his death in the eyes of the law is his own fault whether he runs in front of a car, or is shot by police...even in the back.

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
31. Nice strawman
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:55 AM
Nov 2014

Did Brown run out of a bank with alarms sounding, no.

So we have two sides to the story, one says the cop grabs the kid and tries to pull him in the car, the kid runs and gets killed.

Tell me are you really fucking o.k. with that?

No trial, the cop just gets to kill the kid and walk away? Really.

Knock the bullshit strawman shit off and stick to the facts.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
36. yep
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 02:08 AM
Nov 2014

Robs a store, resists arrest, strikes a cop, what's next?

Frankly i doubt even one of the jurors believe what you made up above actually is what happened. ...

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
30. Is jaywalking now a felony?
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:50 AM
Nov 2014

Because other than that you have nothing to claim Brown created a crime that Wilson was aware of.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
32. Assaulting/battering a police officer is a felony
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:55 AM
Nov 2014

Whether the assault/battery leaves a mark or not....and then there is the strong arm robbery. ...

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
34. again you got nothing
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 01:59 AM
Nov 2014

the cop said he was assaulted, others say the cop was the aggressor. Strong armed robbery is in question, did Wilson know about it at the time of the shooting?

Seems like plenty of reason to have a trial to sort out the facts so ignorant asses don't go around making up facts.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
38. See, the cop gets to be the aggressor, it's his job
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 02:15 AM
Nov 2014

Yes, it was determined he did know about the robbery and had a description of the assailants.

There is no way to win based on the evidence. You are asking for a repeat of Zimmerman. Know-nothing public demands a trial, prosecution knows there isn't a case but files based on public pressure, Zimmerman walks. Alternatively the prosecution is allowed to do their job and a year or two later more evidence surfaces and the case can be successfully prosecuted. ...can't happen now...

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
39. Wrong
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 02:18 AM
Nov 2014

It was not determined that he knew about the robbery.

You seem to want to fill in the gaps for him. Have an agenda?

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
43. are you referring to the part about Wilson
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 11:06 AM
Nov 2014

If you are you are just being obtuse?

So testimony from one side, from the person potentially saving his own ass, is what you have for proof?

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
57. Someone asked me to point to what I consider open racism
Fri Nov 28, 2014, 09:31 AM
Nov 2014

On another thread, when I lamented that seeing out and out racists on DU showed how much trouble th US is in. These days they don't necessarily wear pointy hoods and use the n-word. Instead, they refuse to acknowledge facts that show a young black man wasn't a robbing thug who attacks a cop by hitting him on his turned-away cheek with a non-dominant hand through a window, runs away, then turns and charges him again.

No, they say that cops have open season on any black man they magically suspect has committed a non-existent robbery instead.

csziggy

(34,133 posts)
6. The whole point is that a grand jury was not the best way to handle this
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:14 PM
Nov 2014

I can see how for some cases a grand jury is advisable. But for cases like this where a lot of information is already public, a grand jury just makes it look as though the government is trying to hide the truth.

For this case, the prosecutor could have simply gone for charges, had a trial and let the evidence be brought out into the open. Then I think it would have been like the Zimmerman-Martin case. People were not happy that Zimmerman got off, but they had the opportunity to see the evidence and see how the prosecution dealt with the case so they were not as angry as they are now.

This case needed to be out in the open. Instead it feels as though far too much is being hidden and the truth is lost.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
10. It followed Missouri criminal procedure, and again
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:04 PM
Nov 2014

This is exactly the type of case for a grand jury. I suspect there isn't a prosecutor in Missouri who could find charges with any chance of conviction. The grand jury process is sometimes used to demonstrate that to the public without destroying the innocent. This was private, not secret. ..members of the public were fully involved.

aint_no_life_nowhere

(21,925 posts)
7. Michael Baden wasn't allowed to testify
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:26 PM
Nov 2014

I would have liked to hear his opinion on the forensic evidence as he is a very qualified expert. I'm surprised no one is revisiting Baden's own private autopsy on behalf of the Brown family (for which he took no fee) in which he concluded that there were no signs of struggle on Brown's body and that there was a possibility that one of the bullets hit Brown's arm from behind as he was running away. It might be interesting to get him on TV to get his reaction to the forensic evidence now that the transcript is out.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
12. The problem is, since they didn't do measurements
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:23 PM
Nov 2014

Baden can't say with 100% certainty what his conclusions are. Do we know if they even traced the trajectory of the bullet that entered the woman's home? For all we know, that was the bullet meant for Brown's back.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
9. I have been asking this question a lot
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 09:56 PM
Nov 2014

They were so brazen, or so afraid of the evidence, that they tanked it in a grand jury. Which is supposed to be closed. They denied even a hearing of the evidence to the public. If that's not closing ranks, I don't know what it is. Though the sad part is that since the prosecutor is so obviously working for the defendant, the trial would have been an absolute slaughter of justice.

Gman

(24,780 posts)
13. The public does not have a right to have Wilson on trial
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:24 PM
Nov 2014

if he were to go to trial, the public has every right to know what is happening in the trial. Big difference.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
14. You missed the entire gist of the article
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:28 PM
Nov 2014

The article talks about how basically this grand jury was used as a trial and the court decisions cited in the article state that it's actually unconstitutional to run a grand jury as a private trial.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
20. No, it wasn't a trial, it was a grand jury
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 12:49 AM
Nov 2014

If it were a trial Wilson could never be tried again, since it was a grand jury, if new evidence comes to light he can be charged.

If tomorrow a video of Zimmerman saying, "I'm gonna kill that Travon Martin". It doesn't matter. If in 5 years something damning comes out Wilson could still be charged.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
56. nobody has a legal or constitutional right to a public trial of anyone without probable cause
Fri Nov 28, 2014, 05:31 AM
Nov 2014

What manner of horrifying legal system are you pretending we have? No, there is no legal or constitutional right for anyone to have anyone charged for anything prompting a public trial WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE.

Do you not get that there MUST be sufficient evidentiary reason to charge anyone with a crime and try them for it? That both legally and constitutionally NO ONE can be charged with a crime prompting a public trial without probable cause that a crime has even been committed and that this is a GOOD thing? Why on God's green earth would anyone want to live in a country where anyone without sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed to begin with be subjected to criminal charges for anything? Bad enough that half the states in the country still use grand juries that are nothing more than secret star chambers to manufacture probable cause when it doesn't exist or doesn't exist in sufficient quantity in order for a jury vote to indict them resulting in anyone being legally permitted to be railroaded into having criminal charges filed against them and subjected to a criminal trial - by the government.

That's the kind of horrifying legal system that guarantees that anyone can be charged with any crime just because the government finds you bothersome. Imagine how that would work for minorities, whistle blowers, labor organizers, environmentalists and yes, PROTESTERS who are exactly the sort of people that grand juries are used to "find" probable cause. And that's exactly how they've been used and are still used by the government against the very people anyone here would be screaming and pulling their hair out over someone being so legally and secretly railroaded. Let's not forget that the prosecution works for the state or the US government in the case of federal grand juries.

Railroading anyone into being charged with a crime is exactly what grand juries are DESIGNED to do because there is no fair examination of ALL the available evidence to show probable cause making grand juries secret star chambers used against those very people that anyone here would abhor being railroaded and even legally railroaded. They violate the Sixth Amendment for the right to legal counsel as well as the right to confront and question witnesses. Add to that, hearsay evidence is allowed along with illegally obtained evidence. Anymore, only half the states use them though all the states still have legal provision for their use, and it's that railroading secret star chamber design of them that's is why half the states stopped using them opting for a far more fair legal proceeding like an adversarial preliminary hearing that is overseen by a judge, requires all evidence to be presented and shared by both the prosecution and defense, allows legal counsel for the accused and any witnesses, is held publicly, etc. It is much the same as a pre-trial hearing except that the accused has not been charged with any crime.

Back in the 1980's a popular chief judge, Sol Wachtler, (who said that grand juries could "indict a ham sandwich&quot announced that grand juries should be abolished because they were designed and operate as a way to charge anyone with a crime without probable cause and advised the use of an adversarial preliminary hearing where ALL the evidence is examined and overseen by a judge in order to determine whether or not there actually IS probable cause. The adversarial preliminary hearing is what half the states use now and thanks to people like Sol Wachtler why they no longer use grand juries.

Grand juries are a prosecution haven and designed as a secret legal cover to charge anyone with any crime without probable cause especially those very people who are far more likely to be found guilty at trial due to bias - before the civil right era imagine how that went for black people - and those very people the government dislikes... all those people I referenced in the beginning of this post and more. They're a secret legal rubber stamp that can charge anyone with anything. Though the accused may not be found guilty at trial, we all know how bias can play a part in trial results (recall the Memphis Three, the NY Palladium murder case, etc.). Even if found not guilty at trial just imagine what the accused had to suffer including what can be years of jail time before trial finally crawls around to being held.

Just look at how they work: though they are supposed to find whether or not theres is sufficient probable cause to bring criminal charge/s they are designed to charge anyone without any probable cause as first, only that evidence and testimony that is favorable to the prosecution is what the jury is presented without including all that evidence that nullifies the "favorable" which obviously makes that presented "favorable" evidence nothing but a lie. For example, Johnny was chosen out a line up as the man who raped the victim which is the evidence the grand jury receives, except that Johnny has solid irrefutable evidence that he was three states away at the time of the rape, but the prosecution is allowed to not give that information to the jury, and unless this rape case was huge news with evidence leaks in the media for which this alibi evidence was widely discussed (and fairly discussed) the jury is not going to know that Johnny couldn't possibly have been the rapist. Raise your hand if you're ok with this ordinary COMMON and TYPICAL grand jury proceeding. Anyone getting a Duke Lacrosse vibe?

Add to that a grand jury is allowed to see and hear any evidence or testimony that is hearsay and when the questioning by the prosecutor can be designed to make it appear that it is NOT hearsay evidence but actually a blatant lie. Usually, hearsay evidence is given by those people that are part of the prosecution "team" such as POLICE OFFICERS (yes, I said it) that know that the prosecutor doesn't want the jury to realize it's hearsay and will be questioned in such a way and give their testimony in such a way as to make it appear that it was evidence seen, heard or otherwise witnessed by them personally. For example, a police officer that was part of the investigation was told by Sally's neighbor, Jeff, that he (Jeff) overheard Sally tell someone that she killed her husband. But the police officer in giving his testimony would make it appear that HE (the police officer) and Sally's neighbor, Jeff, overheard Sally tell someone she killed her husband. Yes, it's a flat out lie, but who's going to know? The prosecutor who is totally in charge of the grand jury proceedings certainly isn't going to admit it, the police officer that perjured himself certainly isn't, and anyone that knows any differently is sworn to secrecy forever about anything that occurred during the grand jury proceedings.

SCOTUS back in the 1970's ruled that prosecutors can also use evidence that has been illegally obtained. Or illegally planted, but who's going to know? The prosecutor presenting that "evidence" certainly isn't going to divulge that, and the police officer or paid snitch used to obtain it certainly isn't going to either.

Sick to your stomach yet?

In the Brown/Wilson matter McCulloch (who didn't personally prosecute the grand jury case to begin with) didn't have any other choice but to present all the evidence (or what we believe is all the evidence since it's all the grand jury got) and allow the jury to decide because he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He couldn't make the decision himself to not bring charges against Wilson though he knew there was no probable cause because of the uproar that it would be claimed he refused to file charges because he was biased. Of course he wasn't going to make that determination himself which is how over 90% of all criminal cases are decided - the prosecutor alone makes the decision. His only choice at that point was to hand the case over to a grand jury.

But the problem with that was that there was NO evidence to put before the grand jury that was favorable to the prosecution. NONE. ZERO. Every bit of the forensic evidence supported Wilson's version of events. Those eyewitnesses that testified that Brown had his hands up, was kneeling in surrender when Wilson shot him, etc. obviously never saw the incident at all because their interviews with detectives were that bad. For all we know there might be more of them that weren't presented to the grand jury because they were so obviously lying witnesses that saw not one second of the incident. All the witnesses - probably the worst of which was Dorian Johnson (go read his grand jury testimony - which is a study in how to perjure one's self as obviously as possible and that throws Mike Brown under the bus trying to save his own butt from the possibility of prosecution because of his presence during the robbery at the store that he also testifies he was terrified of) were even more unfavorable to the prosecution than a number of the one's that were favorable to Wilson (7 of those witness btw are black).

So, what else could McCulloch possibly do having NO evidence at ALL favorable to the prosecution? Introduce himself to the grand jury, go over procedural rules and lunch times and then say "Well, sorry, we have no evidence at all to show you, coffee and danish being served in the lounge now, Thank you."? When he CAN'T present any evidence favorable to the prosecution because there ISN'T ANY he didn't have any choice but to present what we know they received. And if anyone that's been so adamant about Wilson being guilty hasn't bothered to look at that evidence now that it's been made public you'd see that for yourselves (which is exactly why it is being ignored).

Further complicating the issue was the popularity of the case and stunning amount of press coverage all of the jurors would have been paying attention to. Grand jury jurors are not forbidden from seeing any media or researching themselves anything about the case because they serve for a term of a specific amount of time and handle every case put before them during their term with no one having any way to know what cases they're going to be, so there is no rule that they can't immerse themselves in media or research about any case they handle.

Grand jury jurors also have broad powers in that not only can they question a witness themselves and can ask them anything they want that the witness must answer they can demand from the prosecutor to see or hear any evidence they want and must receive it. In most cases a grand jury investigates they don't know anything about the case because the media didn't think it warranted any coverage and so wouldn't know what evidence to demand unless it was evidence they didn't receive that they knew they should have (ex: an autopsy report concerning a homicide case - the jurors would know that one existed and would demand to see it if for some reason the prosecutor kept it from them). The jurors in this case already knew what evidence should exist because of the extensive media coverage constantly talking about the incident including excruciating detail of the scene which is where that forensic evidence would come from.

This should scare the crap out of anyone...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juries_in_the_United_States#Criticism

Limited constitutional rights

The prosecutor is not obliged to present evidence in favor of those being investigated.[41]

Individuals subject to grand jury proceedings do not have a Sixth Amendment constitutional right to counsel in the grand jury room,[42][43] nor do they have a Sixth Amendment right to confront and cross-examine witnesses. Additionally, individuals in grand jury proceedings can be charged with holding the court in contempt (punishable with incarceration for the remaining term of the grand jury) if they refuse to appear before the jury.[2] Media is not allowed.[44] Furthermore, all evidence is presented by a prosecutor in a cloak of secrecy, as the prosecutor, grand jurors, and the grand jury stenographer are prohibited from disclosing what happened before the grand jury unless ordered to do so in a judicial proceeding.[2]

In 1974 the Supreme Court of the United States held in U.S. v. Calandra that "the exclusionary rule in search-and-seizure cases does not apply to grand jury proceedings because the principal objective of the rule is ‘to deter future unlawful police conduct,’ [. . .] and ‘it is unrealistic to assume that application of the rule to grand jury proceedings would significantly further that goal.’" [45] Illegally obtained evidence, therefore, is admissible in grand jury proceedings, and the Fourth Amendment's exclusionary rule does not apply.

{snip}

Be very careful what you wish for - and what you champion and what you complain about.



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