General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"A letter to … the girl who accused me of rape when I was 15"
It was entirely mute apart from the simple, but essential, Do you want to ? and Yes.
We parted with closed-mouth kisses and I returned to my mattress to sleep.
I woke up being shaken by my friends father and two policemen. They were telling me to get dressed and come with them. I didnt have a clue what was going on.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/29/letter-to-girl-accused-me-of-rape?CMP=fb_gu
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)...and my biggest fear as the mother of a teenaged boy.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)While reading this, all if could think about was what if this happened to one of them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 30, 2014, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)
This with my boys. Ever. Just not something up there on the list with them.
Heart broken is about top of the list. Car wreck. Fight with other young men.
Never have I feared false rape claims. The odds are just not there.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)will happen to our son.
My intent in my response was pure.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)I wasn't challenging your intent and I too was being sincere. Your comment was just the first I read, with two sons it had me think. Hence posting what I did.
We gave certainly had conversation about this and so much more but I really am not at all fearful. I can say, in all my life and all the boys and men I know, i do not personally know one man/boy that experienced this.
Tgat allows a comfort level of not being on my list.
Bettie
(16,071 posts)Fake rape claims are not the norm as some seem to think.
However, articles like this one tend to keep women from reporting rapes, which appears to be the intent.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)crime, to report a rape brings back so much pain to the victim. it makes absolutely no sense to suggest our girls would just frivolously claim rape when it isnt. there is NOTHING in it for her. more so, than any other crime.
Bettie
(16,071 posts)never result in a conviction. Only about 3 of 100 even go to prison (if I'm recalling the statistic correctly).
And yeah, once you report a rape, you (the victim) are on trial. Every moment of your life is under a microscope.
Did you flirt with that man? You asked for it.
Did you wear a short skirt? Low cut top? Well, what did you expect?
Didn't fight back? Come on, you know you wanted it!
False allegations are made from time to time, but it isn't so widespread as to negate all the actual rapes that are not reported due to fear and humiliation.
A woman who reports a rape is generally branded a slut and told she's at fault for being victimized. There is no up side there.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the adults failed. as a parent, i cannot fathom putting kids in this position.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)I am just aghast at how the laws are interpreted that all young men are perps
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)reported rapes are being ignored, put in a drawer, rape kits left on shelves.
yet, you are AGHAST that laws interpret all males are rapists?
even with video, taken and distributed on line for the entertainment of men, we cannot get the police to act.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)And other then trolling for an argument would you jump on a response made to some one else
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)clarify, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but the breakdown is here
https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment
A big part of it is the 54% that do NOT get reported.
Of those that ARE reported, according to these stats
over 25% lead to an arrest.
75% of those arrested are taken to trial
and over 50% of those who goto trial, are convicted.
Then only 60% of those convicted goto jail
But for the title to say "receive no punishment" means that we need to believe
1) it is not a big deal to be arrested and questioned by the police
2) it is not a big deal to face a trial, and pay for a lawyer
3) it is not a big deal to face a trial, pay for a lawyer and get convicted and pay a fine, and go on probation.
All of those seem, to me, a little more harsh than a root canal. Something most people like to avoid.
Not as bad as going to prison, of course, but hardly a walk in the park and a jolly good time.
The 25% number is the smallest of the group. But the question is not answered there - why only 25%?
olddots
(10,237 posts)I supose there are very , very very rare cases like this but what is point of this OP ?
bluesbassman
(19,360 posts)Seems to me it's saying that victims of false rape allegations suffer similar trauma as victims of rape.
Is that not a worthy topic for discussion in your opinion?
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Missing from the OP tale is the geography of the event. It's very rare for age of consent to be under age 14. Thus it's highly like that the girl could not give consent legally, regardless of the words that came out of her mouth. Rather than focusing on her, likely a statutory rape victim under local law, the author of the OP link should be condemning statutes that don't have a Romeo and Juliet exception.
Chipala
(15 posts)Whats rare are when they are proven to be false like the Duke Lacrosse case. I had a false rape claim but it was so unbelievable and ill timed I was never charged. I have also been arrested for something I didnt do. If you would have mixed both of those incidents it would have been horrific so I can relate to the OP. Family court, alimony and child support turned are like nitric oxide to false allegations of many sorts with rape being but one.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)try to persecute men through false claims of paternity and rape to swindle them out of money?
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)I'm glad to see they didn't dignify your post with a response...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Like wearing a "Hello: My Name is Men's Rights Advocate."
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Are you basically saying that false rape accusations (especially where they've been proven false) must be suppressed because 1) they're extremely rare and 2) even one proven false rape accusation casts doubt on all other allegations and that's hurtful to the cause of stopping sexual violence?
We hopefully all agree that sexual violence is a massive problem, but ignoring the very real plight of individuals that are falsely accused (however rare it is) simply because it doesn't fit your narrative, or you view it as hurtful to your cause, is pretty sick and twisted.
By your logic epidermolysis bullosa, whose pedatric victims are informally referred to as "butterfly children" because they live their often short lives in extreme pain due to skin fragility, should be ignored because "it's extremely rare" as maybe only 1 in 20,000 children are born with it. It doesn't need any funding, no sympathy for its victims, etc., because it doesn't affect very many people, and especially should be ignored because it doesn't affect YOU.
Or we should ignore cases like Michael Brown because out of the millions (maybe billions) of law enforcement officer-citizen encounters in a year, only 400 result in an officer killing that citizen. Too rare to necessitate any action right?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Something to be prevented and deadly serious when it happens, but a minor problem in relative terms.
It would be like every time overfishing and shark-finning is mentioned, some people would bring up shark attacks.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Someone on here posted that they themselves had been falsely accused, and your response was one of the biggest strawman posts I've ever seen on here (and I lurked for years before finally signing up for posting privileges):
Other poster: "I had a false rape claim but it was so unbelievable and ill timed I was never charged. I have also been arrested for something I didnt do. If you would have mixed both of those incidents it would have been horrific so I can relate to the OP."
Your exact response: "So you think women are a bunch of liars who try to persecute men through false claims of paternity and rape to swindle them out of money?"
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I tend to treat factual claims--including autobiographical ones--with skepticism when they come from a dude complaining that men have to pay child support.
And they pushed the loathsome MRA talking point that false rape accusations are a commonplace occurrence.
Person had an obvious ideological agenda.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Amazing that we see no OP's about false accusations of felony assault, arson, fraud etc.
Only this particular genre, which happens to be the hobby horse of the online misogynist activist community.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)or all the black men in jail on trumped up charges?
They are discussions of justice, but false accusations about sexual assault would be misogyny?
Now, who's got a hobby horse?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)are the most vociferous men's rights advocates on the site who also act as if domestic violence hurts men as much as it does women, etc etcetera. And that the emphasis is on the horrible lying woman (or here girl) not abuse of authority or prosecutorial misconduct.
See, it's never about systemic injustice with these OPs, it's about how we shouldn't trust rape victims.
Drale
(7,932 posts)because it doesn't fit into their "roses are red" world view and it sad that they call themselves liberal.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)That is innumerate "Men's Rights" propaganda
closeupready
(29,503 posts)For society, for those who file false charges, and those who are charged with them.
You are so out there.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Deadly serious if it happens to you, but rare.
False reports are not the reason people disbelieve rape victims.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Just saying
Mojo Electro
(362 posts)There never seems to be any repercussions for filing false rape claims. It's very easy for a women to use that as a weapon against a man.
It's a lot more common than most people like to admit.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)character threatens Richard Dreyfuss that she is going to falsely cry 'rape!' if he fails to vacate the premises he subleased legally from her ex-boyfriend.
I saw this film with my family when it was released, but didn't recall that bit - I mean, unless I was obsessed with Marsha Mason or Richard Dreyfuss films, why would I have remembered it? But upon watching it again very recently, that little bit of dialogue REALLY leapt out at me, particularly in light of how social mores have changed since that time (for the better, I might add). That is, American society in the 70's looked so lightly at the act of rape that it could even be legitimate fodder for mainstream wisecracks. One can't envisage that happening in modern comedies, or at least I can't.
eridani
(51,907 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Unless you are going to surprise everyone and produce legit research to back up your MRA mythology.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)This is also very rare
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025886887
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Of course if we did, everyone would instantly become a chief fire inspector dude/dudette LOL
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)women who get marginalized in such a way?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Never seem to have 100+ post threads on inner city violence or issues facing the Native American community but hey, I'm just here waiting for my beer and travel money
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Two words: Darren Wilson
Renew Deal
(81,846 posts)For being wrong.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Now let's hear from the victim.
Shoulders of Giants
(370 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)There's always another side to any story.
So yeah, let's hear from the victim.
Strange thing is, though...had this been told first from the victim's point of view, would there be a similar call for a story from the "rapist's" side?
I'm thinking probably not.
Because if someone most consider to be a victim anyway (by virtue of race or gender or whatever) says something happened, then it must be true. No other side of the story. Don't even suggest there might be another side
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a lying slut.
Peopke who think that shit is cool got issues.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Here is what the author said: "I dont know why you told your friend that I had raped you maybe because you didnt want to admit youd had sex so casually or maybe because you were scared."
And this, I think, is the entire point of the OP:
"Rape is an abhorrent crime and every victim should be able to report it. But false accusations of rape are abhorrent too, and the victims too easily forgotten. Not only do false allegations damage the life of the victim but they also contribute to the trivialisation of the seriousness of genuine sexual violence."
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.
By: anonymous.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)above me pointed out, nobody called the girl a lying slut.
What the guy did say was that perhaps the girl lied because she was afraid HER FRIEND would think she had had sex too casually.
Girls are often harder on other girls than guys are when it comes to casual sex.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)How do you know this letter is factual vs fictional?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)nobody really knows, do they?
But even if the letter is a work of fiction in this case, it could be, and probably is, factual in a whole lot of other cases.
How do you know this has never happened before in the history of humankind?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)weaving their web of deceit at parentally-supervised sessions of binge-drinking for middle-schoolers is something that happens quite often.
About as often as 15 year old boys who are shitfaced and horny maintain perfect clarity and memory and judgement at all times.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Nobody would do that. It makes it much more known and public.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)"Nobody would do that".
Because you would be surprised at what people will do and/or say even when it doesn't make sense to do or say it.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Fortunately he had the best alibi -- he was at a friend's house the night she said it happened playing a role-playing game, when she said it happened at his house during the same time-frame as the game.
Since it could be proven the "Anonymous" in the OP had vaginal intercourse of some kind with the 13-year-old girl, and it could have been an age-related case as well -- they might not have had as broad of Romeo and Juliet laws in my state. Since the OP's letter mentioned underage, I was wondering if the charge of "rape" might have been related to his age vs her age.
I've also been raped, and the case dismissed because there wasn't enough evidence to prove it -- wouldn't even take it before a grand jury based on texts and emails, since he didn't confess over the recorded phone call..
False accusations are damaging to getting justice for real victims. Yes, they do happen. I'm not sure what this case actually was, because I didn't hear the 13-year-old's side of the story to explain why, if it was true there was a witness in the same room, she wasn't able to alert them that she didn't want to participate in what was happening (if she'd binge-drank so much that she was blacked out or unable to protest, as one possible reason given what was written in the boy's letter, for example).
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)from 13 year olds is not a problem of crisis proportions, imo.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)To be truthful, I don't know for sure if this story is true or false.....I mean, it could be B.S., possibly, but hoaxed incidents of false rape accusations are at least about as rare as actual accusations themselves, if not more so.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you made the statement. so i am giving you the opportunity for clarification. who? says that teen sex does not happen?
you made the statement. not me. i ask. you have the chance to answer.
you are redefining this thread.
why?
not a single damn person on this thread is stating that consensual sex does not happen among teens.
the point being, it is derailing and dismissing. that is what i am calling out.
you state i am missing the point. i nailed the point. your point. to dismiss others voice on this thread, stating WHO is saying consensual sex does not happen among teens.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I was clear enough here. But since you insist, may I underscore the point?
To be truthful, I don't know for sure if this story is true or false.....I mean, it could be B.S., possibly, but hoaxed incidents of false rape accusations are at least about as rare as actual accusations themselves, if not more so.
And I stand by what I wrote/ We have no clue if this story of a boy being falsely accused of rape by a girl is 100% true or not, but we ought not to dismiss it entirely, either.
the point being, it is derailing and dismissing. that is what i am calling out.
you state i am missing the point. i nailed the point. your point. to dismiss others voice on this thread, stating WHO is saying consensual sex does not happen among teens.
You can stop bullshitting us(and projecting!) now, Seabeyond. None of this is the least bit accurate or truthful, and you know that as well as I do. There was no dismissal, or derailment on my end, and in fact, quite the opposite, actually.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.
Bettie
(16,071 posts)"YOU didn't want to admit YOU'D had sex so casually"...but that's not calling her a lying slut? Um, yeah, it is.
But is it extremely common in our society to assume that rape victims were asking for it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it was like.... rape week, triggering a lot of hurt and pain for a lot of people. mostly women. but, there were men too.
granted, the question asked was 3, 4 buddies, going into a room of an unconscious girl, and fucking her.... rape? how it was a norm. what they did in the day. ect...
this OP was so long ago. from a then boy, now a man. booze? at that age? for either?
from the little i invested in this story from so many years ago, from a now man, seeing himself innocent of rape, cause after all.... i mean, who would want to see themselves as coercing a 13 yr old drunk girl in some other persons home. ... where there is not safety, security, trust.
honestly. i could not read the story.
parents, all around, failed these kids.
Bettie
(16,071 posts)on all levels.
Giving kids alcohol at that age, letting them all sleep together, etc?
I remember the rape threads now, I had to stay far from those threads because it made me so angry, because YES, screwing a passed out girl is rape and should never have been the norm, never.
But, rapists have been making excuses for as long as there has been rape. Somehow, it is always someone else's fault.
mythology
(9,527 posts)At best you are assuming that is what was meant based on your own presumption.
Bettie
(16,071 posts)And yet, the entire article is about how she's a liar (evidenced by his insistence that he was an innocent victim in the whole thing) and he makes a point about how SHE had sex so casually.
To anyone reading it, she's a liar and was "easy", if that suits your sensibilities more.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"had sex so casually."
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)accurate summation of their actions. But then, I'm not invested in a manichaean ideology.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You were there?
Also, "had sex so casually" is not an objective description, it's a detrimental judgment--one that you apparently share--towards a drunk 13 year old girl.
Not surprised you're so willing to believe an implausible tale of a lying, scheming, drunken thirteen-year old virgin seductress.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)kind of thread. They seems so static -- even droll -- these discussions. Little is accomplished, few are persuaded.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's just noting that you explicitly agreed with some pretty noxious 'slut-shaming'
That's just plain guilt
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I mean I don't know what the OPs point was - but reading the letter from the Guardian was pretty disturbing. While false accusations of rape are very rare (and not nearly the problem that actual cases of rape are), they do happen I would imagine.
Bryant
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a 13 year old girl who was drunk. Seems off in a number of ways.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)(who did go by anonymous so it's hard to verify any details) was not being honest?
Or is it more that he blamed all his problems on an incident that happened when he was 15?
Bryant
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The remarkable level of detail for a drunk, horny 15 year old being one.
Also, paternally-supervised "binge drinking" followed by parentally-supervised co-ed sleeping arrangements seems implausible at best.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)It was a fictionalized account. You aren't saying he's lying about being innocent; you are saying he's lying about the incident occurring at all.
I wonder what the standards in the UK are for printing anonymous letters like this; because some elements of it would be verifiable if he gave his name to the Guardian, but requested it not be published.
Bryant
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Another is that this is a very self-serving account.
"'I did that' says my memory. 'I couldn't have done that' says my pride, and stands its ground. Finally, memory gives in."
--Nietzsche
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)There's no way to go back and find out what the girl said or what the incident really involved; nor would it do much good to do so. Rather you look at this incident and read based on your own experiences and biases. There are those for whom sounds completely plausible, and others for whom this doesn't make any sense at all.
I come down in the middle (it could have happened, it might not have, and there's no way to know); I suppose because it comes from the Guardian which is nominally a pretty liberal paper - if I read this at a more conservative place I would probably be more critical.
Bryant
MADem
(135,425 posts)There did seem to be an unspoken "...and it's all YOUR FAULT" up in there...
You damaged my perception of women entirely and the only relationship I have since been able to sustain is with a man I can trust.
I'll be honest--these first person confessionals don't resonate with me. People can throw out statistics about how many people get convicted and how many accusations are false, and DNA tests exonerating this one or that, but it's all a mish-mash. People are always going to try to paint themselves and their motives in the best possible light. They may also take the view that THEIR perceptions are the only accurate ones. By another token, it's entirely possible for a person to participate willingly in a behavior and then, later, regret it.
But there's really no way for any of "us" to know what the "truth" is unless we were a fly on the wall observing this encounter.
I'd much rather see a conversation between the victim/accuser and the alleged rapist/other victim (depending on who is who and what the truth is). I think the only way to sort it out is to have the two of them talk with each other and express their feelings and perceptions. Anything other than that is just an exercise in Taking Sides about who is "right" and who is "wrong," who the "victim" is, who the "perpetrator" is, and maybe even (given the shitty parenting) who the "enablers" are.
This confessional essay doesn't get to the heart of the matter at all--it does create a rallying point for people who want to see these issues in a particular way, though. If people want their biases confirmed they can find that here--if they want to rail against the "they always get away with it" POV, this essay works, too. It creates a lot of heat but not nearly enough light.
tritsofme
(17,370 posts)It appears you have already judged the guilt and innocence of the two parties, why bother hearing the other side?
treestar
(82,383 posts)We are supposed to assume the boy here is telling the truth. The article only gives his side.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)offerings on different subjects. I am not sure what one is supposed to get out of any of them since they are all one sided.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/aletterto
"I tell practically no one now about what happened, for fear of being perceived as a rapist [...]."
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Renew Deal
(81,846 posts)He wasn't even charges according to his letter.
Ino
(3,366 posts)This is why it's statutory rape to have sex with a 13-year-old. Excuse me... a 13-year-8-month-year-old. Can a 13-year-8-month-year-old virgin consent? Does she even know what she's consenting to? He reports that he asked the essential Do you want to
? Did he finish that sentence? Want to... what? Maybe she thought he meant snuggle or make out or pet.
That was as irresponsible as going ahead without a condom because virgin-boy didn't expect to have sex and the scheming virgin-girl didn't offer a condom if she had one. As irresponsible as "the usual Friday night routine of underage binge drinking and smoking to look cool."
The point of Anonymous's article, which I don't believe is a true story, is contained in the last paragraph...
It's a classic whining "what about the boyzzzzzzz.... sometimes the accusations are faaaaaalse!" story, with the added bump of suggesting such an incident can make someone gay ("the only relationship I have since been able to sustain is with a man I can trust."
Damn those scheming little 13-year-8-month-old virgins! They will ruin your liiiiiiiife!
Wella
(1,827 posts)13 is still a child in Western societies.
Chipala
(15 posts)teenagers have sex all the time. Throwing them in jail for it makes their life worse. Especially with our jails. Trust me there are girls at that age and younger who know what sex is. When I was a kid I saw it and I did it. I was just talking about it with my wife. She cant believe what I did with girls at the age of 9. Its why I keep an eye on my sons because I was having sex before I was a teen.
Ino
(3,366 posts)but just because they are both young teens doesn't mean a 13-year-old girl's consent is acceptable.
If she can't "consent" when the accused is an adult, then her "consent" when they're both underage isn't really consent either! Especially when what the boy knows is an "essential" question is an open-ended "Do you want to..."
Oh, I believe there are girls that age and younger who know what sex is. They have been sexually abused. They think that's how to get attention and affection. They think that's what males want from them... that's ALL that males want from them. They think that's what they are FOR.
treestar
(82,383 posts)good grief.
moriah
(8,311 posts)And I mean sheltered as "homeschooled by Fundies who never taught her sex ed and a late bloomer so they hadn't even had the period talk" sheltered. Especially if the "Do you want to" was said right before intercourse, which is what makes more sense to me as a time to ask, not while petting or kissing or before any touching at all.
15 isn't that much older than 13, either. In my state, we have "Romeo and Juliet" laws that give a guideline as to an appropriate age difference -- here it's 3 years, some may have 4 or 5 years age difference acceptable, especially with older teens who haven't reached the age to consent to sex with adults (to make an 18-year-old not guilty of rape if he had sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend who has been his girlfriend for years, etc).
What's sad is some states criminalize conduct between two 13-year-olds. What are they going to do, send the one who's older by a few months to jail? Both?
Now, if she was blacked out drunk, or if she was so intoxicated she couldn't alert the person allegedly sleeping next to them, that's where things get hairy. None of us have heard the girl's side. Perhaps she said to her friend she had sex and the friend said it had to be rape because she'd been drinking, but wasn't passed out yet, and reported it to the police who snagged on the age issue (because the age issue seems to predominate the perp's story). Or perhaps he threatened her and told her to keep her mouth shut. I have no idea.
But there's a reason for Romeo and Juliet laws. Not all states have them, and a situation could very easily arise where consensual sex between two teens that are close in age lands one of them in jail. And I don't think that's right.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)From Wikipedia, "On average, girls begin puberty at ages 1011; boys at ages 1112.[1][2]"
I remember when I was a kid, maybe about that age and I was reading about it, the books all seemed to say it occurred around 16-17, though I no longer recall specific male/female differences. Either those books were wrong, or puberty has accelerated in a few short decades. Another possibility, is the books were intentionally lying (I'm not saying they were), perhaps a result of a sexually-repressed Christian viewpoint.
When puberty begins, kids are gonna start experimenting. It's just the way nature makes us.
If what you say about the age-of-conset laws is true, then those laws are in need of update to reflect reality instead of outdated understanding.
Dammit, I'm not done typing, and I gotta go.
eridani
(51,907 posts)We are much better fed than we were a couple of hundred years ago.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)(And of course there are huge differences in individuals but elevated levels of fat do produce some estrogen, and enough estrogen means menarche if I recall the term correctly. )
latebloomer
(7,120 posts)but I was appalled at my daughter's 22-year-old friend's accusations of rape against a young man who she gave oral sex to when they were both drunk.
Fine to regret your decision, but look at your own actions and the consequences, rather than attempting to ruin someone else's life.
Mz Pip
(27,430 posts)The two teens had consensual sex at a party. When the girls boyfriend found out she said she was raped.
It happens. The idea that girls don't lie about sex is ridiculous.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)(I'm not going to presume that all relationships are heterosexual). We don't send 12 year olds to war, but we do send 18 year olds. That's one way that society recognizes that there is a difference between a young teen and an older teen.
unblock
(52,116 posts)the story as written doesn't add up. there was a potential witness sleeping close by. if the girl objected and screamed, it could have all come to a quick end.
so we're to believe three things:
first, that the girl claimed to not give consent (not merely by virtue of age, but he's accusing her of lying, implying that she explicitly claimed that she didn't say yes); and
second, that the girl didn't make a noise at the time. certainly not enough to wake up the potential witness; and
third, that the system took the above scenario entirely seriously for months.
to me, it's simply not very plausible that the system took the scenario seriously as described. they would have asked the girl why she didn't object, why she didn't make a noise, why she didn't wake up the other person.
there are two far more plausible scenarios:
one is that the girl was actually asleep the entire time. drugged, perhaps, maybe just too much alcohol.
two is that the boy threatened violence or other harm if she said anything.
the boy could have still written a letter claiming even that was a lie, and as this is an anonymous case i can't say, perhaps it was. but what i can say is that it's much more plausible if the girl's story included such a threat, and the boy's letter becomes far less sympathetic had he mentioned that accusation as well.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)and how did I know it would inspire so much hatred and disbelief here? To those who claim that this is an exceedingly rare problem, does that mean that people who have had to live through this shouldn't talk about it?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)would believe every syllable of it without an ounce of skepticism, including this part:
But I will never be able to forgive you for what you did to me.
The author called a 13 year old girl a lying slut, and the usual suspects at DU found it plausible.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The author obviously has some 13 year old girl in his past that he deeply hates, not much more to discern here.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)malaise
(268,693 posts)and I feel his horrific pain
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Which makes it kind of hard to feel sorry for the guy. Even if everything he says is the truth.
Marr
(20,317 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)1. Anonymous accuser (same as op, but not unusual in rape cases).
2. Accuser friends also unnamed.
3. Both known accused unnamed.
4. Allegations that a song causes rape.
cali
(114,904 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)I asked why it should be so hard to feel sympathy for one of the children in this narrative, yet so easy, apparently, to feel for the other.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)He was two years older than her. It is not the I do not have sympathy for the young man, if his story is true. However, I would think a 15 year old boy would think it is not okay to have sex with a 13 year old girl. I would think he would know that a 13 year old girl is too young to consent to sex.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I'd say that's much more like a year.
Ino
(3,366 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)that makes it much more like a year-and-a-half
instead of much more like a year.
Marr
(20,317 posts)It seems like you're trying to make the boy in this scenario seem as much a predator as possible.
Ino
(3,366 posts)but 15 minus 13 does equal 2. So there actually is a basis for saying 2 years?
You are quibbling about months... shaving off two months, then rounding down to one year! If you're going to correct someone, at least be accurate.
I don't believe his is the whole story, or a wholly accurate story. In fact, I don't believe it's a true story at all.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)And as the story goes, he asked her an open ended question "do you want to?"
To do what? Did 13 year old even understand what is it he wanted to do?
kelly1mm
(4,732 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)A two year age difference is not huge between teenagers, even a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old. Disregarding that according to the story they were 1 year and 4 months apart.
And I knew the facts about sex when I was 13. They start on education about that in the sixth grade at most schools, and 7th grade when I was going to school had an entire quarter dedicated to sex ed. My Dad bragged (and I cringed) about his first sex with an 11-year-old at 12. I'd much rather kids mess around with other kids if they're going to mess around, than to seek out adults who have far more power over them.
In my state, it's legal if both parties are willing and they're less than 3 years apart in age, no matter what their actual ages are, until the age of consent. Which makes far more sense if we want to prevent adults taking advantage of kids.
What if they'd both been 13? Would the boy still be automatically at fault? Or did they rape each other, if you're going to go by laws that say under 14 cannot consent at all, like Indiana does?
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Since the author talks about binge drinking prior to ending up at the house where they were allowed to sleep in the same room?
moriah
(8,311 posts)I'm not going to say what's legally "too young" for kids to fuck around with other kids of a like age. Otherwise, we'd be arresting 5-year-olds for playing doctor.
As for the booze, no, I'm not one of the people who thinks having sex with a drunk person is rape, if they're able to participate in the sex. Obviously if they're passed out, that's rape. The hairy area comes when the person is in a blackout -- it's very damn hard to tell if someone's blacked out, because they may speak, move, and act like they have full control of themselves. And in this case, we don't know if she was black-out drunk or not, since we haven't heard her side, if "Anonymous" wasn't just penning fiction out of whole cloth and actually was arrested.
Edit to add: If I had sons, would I teach them that's a Bad Idea to have sex with a drunk female? Yes, I would, and explain all of the consequences -- from false rape allegations if she doesn't remember to the fact drunk people rarely use condoms. I'd explain that even one drink should be enough for them to not have sex with that female, but also the things to look for so he knows if he needs to get help for that female if she's all over him rather than taking advantage of her drunkenness or letting others do so. If I had daughters, would I teach them that it's a Bad Idea to try to drink like the boys? Absolutely, and tell them exactly why it's so bad, which I know from personal experience (having been raped while passed out), along with mentioning again that alcohol impairs judgment about who you choose to sleep with and if you choose to use a condom.
But I'm not of the belief that two kids of a like age fucking is rape, even if she's had something to drink, if both parties are willing and able participants in the sex act. Stupid yes, and I wonder where the parents were in all of this, but not criminal.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)25 or 30, either.
Teenaged boys are stupid about a lot of things. Some guys are still stupid at 25 or 30 (and beyond) but that's not the point here.
They can't control their emotions. They can't control their libidos. They are not models of self-control for any aspect of life.
Not an excuse...just fact.
I mean, let's turn this around. What if the 15 year old boy were seduced by a 31 year old woman? Is he a man, or just a kid without life experience?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)Compared to the adult woman, they are certainly at a level of maturity that gives the older party power to manipulate the situation, often by manipulating those very same emotions and libidos.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)raping a boy is ok?
is that really how you interpreted my reply, my words?
you will find i am about the first to state, that it is wrong for an adult woman to have sex with our youth, whether the boy says ok or not, for a number of reasons. you will find i am the first to state the many issues with that, no different than if an adut man had sex with a girl.
consistently and always.
further.
i suggest, my post stating that boys do have control over emotion and libido is standing up for boys, not insulting them.
dontcha think?
moriah
(8,311 posts)So laws like those in Indiana, where regardless of the defendant's age, having intercourse with someone under 14 is a crime, are pretty fucked up when you have a 15-year-old defendant.
At least my state has a "Romeo and Juliet" clause -- where if the teens are willing and are close enough in age (3 years), that it's not criminal conduct.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)That has not been my conversation.
I really am not getting into pecking out that whole subject. You first suggest that I am fine with a 35 yr old woman raping a child. Now you suggest I have a problem with kids having consensual sex with each other. Why?
moriah
(8,311 posts)It may not have been "the" reason, but at the end of the story and at the beginning it looks like they went by the ages of the parties as factors in charges.
If the victim had continued to say it was not consensual, if she *ever* said that (because the guy focused so much on age, I wonder if that was ever said), there would have been a trial.
But I'm sick of people trying to say that a 15-year-old is so much more powerful and in control of their emotions just because they might be the older party, and not by a great deal. If you see, this went up to the comment from LisaL that because the victim was 13 she didn't feel sorry for the alleged perp at all, even though he was only one year and four months older.
The person you responded to said that 15-year-olds aren't much more knowledgable and powerful than 13-year-olds. You disagreed, which is why I posted. I think maybe now you can see my logic in the questions I'm asking?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my copy adn pasting of her words, and addressing those words, are a clue in on what i was talking about.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Assuming for a second that this is indeed a true case, that actually happened:
TBH, this problem really isn't all that common, but, unfortunately, it DOES happen on occasion. And when such *is* proven, we should support those who were victimized by such a false accusation, just as we should support those people who are victims of actual rape. I know I would.
Derek V
(532 posts)I dunno about this...
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)When I was 22 (I think, early Twenties for sure), I lived in one of those bedsits (for Americans: Single room that combines bedroom and lounge, sometimes with a small kitchen built in, the only thing welfare will pay for if you're under 35) where someone has turned what was built as a normal house into a load of bedsits. The walls were paper thin and so were the ceilings and floors. Unless you made a specific effort to be quiet, the entire house could hear you quietly cough.
Anyway, one time I happened to overhear the upstairs neighbor's sometime girlfriend trying to apologise for accusing him of raping her. He pointed out that he's just spent overnight in the local police station because of this accusation and he just wanted her to leave. She was sobbing and repeatedly apologising while he just kept repeating that he wanted her to go away.
So it does happen. Occasionally.
But it happens relatively rarely. The Home Office (who are responsible for crime and policing here in the UK) estimates the false accusations at 4-6%. So, for every 100 men accused of rape, maybe 6 are innocent and 94 are rapists. Now, that doesn't mean we should automatically believe every woman who claims she has been raped because that 4-6% still exists and it's possible that she's one of them, that's why criminal trials have presumption of innocence. But it does mean we should investigate in the knowledge that, statistically, she's much more likely to be telling the truth.
What defeats me is how we can discourage the false claims without also frightening off the (statistical majority) genuine victims. Is it possible to do so? Or are the occasional false claims something we just have to live with if we're trying to make it easier for female victims (male victims of rape have a whole additional battle getting people to even believe they exist) to report their attacker?
NOTE: I'm ignoring the whole issue about age because they were relatively close in age and so, both are doing something stupid fucking at that age.
kcr
(15,314 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Yet this girl was seemingly taken at her word, almost without question.
I don't know anywhere near enough to say that the guy's lying, so I won't assume that. This just seems like a peculiar case.
cali
(114,904 posts)It's one side of the story. In any case, this is not representative of false rape claims as the two were quite young children.
I am not discounting false rape claims- they're terrible and destructive, but this case is hardly a good example.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)also no note as to who called the police.
eridani
(51,907 posts)One bullshit statement casts a shadow over the whole narrative.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)My intent was pure and clear because the OP spoke to something I talk to my 16-year-old son about. Not that "all girls are ___ who out to get you." Not that this can ever even possibly happen to him someday.
Yes, I know that the cases are few and far between, but I did/do worry about it enough to counsel my son not to be an idiot, himself. Because, at the end of the day, it would be on him for making a decision.
Writing me down in some imaginary notebook or making an assumed judgment against me would be unfair.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and I did not intend to include you in that attribution.
Apologies for the lack of clarity.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I hope you have a terrific day.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)because a story doesn't fall in line with an opposing bias?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Spell it out for us.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)You want two sides of the story in one situation before you pass judgement, but then in another situation you only require one side of the story.
We haven't even heard Cosby's side of the story, but I'm rather certain you've already convicted him, so it won't matter what he says.
I'm not saying those women accusing Cosby of sexual assault are all liars. Im just suggesting that we don't have enough information....which is exactly what you are saying about the story in the op.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)There are 15 at last count. One for Cosby, 14 for his victims. And spare me the "we don't have enough information" apologist bullshit.
You don't believe those 14 women who have gone public, under their own names,but you believe the anonymous writer here.
The odds that all 14 women are lying is around 1 in one quadrillion. (.03 ^14)
Transparent. as you always are when it comes to women.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)A - It's a conspiracy / propaganda / paid posters, and therefore can be safely ignored. Also known as the shill gambit.
B - The messenger of said article or opinion is not perfect, and therefore the message can be safely ignored. The more ad hominem attacks on the messenger, the better. No need to discuss the article or anything - focus on the messenger and 'shoot' as much as possible.
C - Something a random person said on the internet can assumed to be 100% true, because nobody would ever lie on the internet. There is only one side to a story, and any others are not important. The source can be so much as a small blog - as long as it validates my opinion, it must both be true and 100% accurate.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And a rather clumsily executed one at that. Never bothered to get the cast of characters straight. Nor to make clear who exactly it was that called the police.
To wit, the 'friend'--
...
...
...
...
...
Also, did the guy have a stop watch on?
Extra credit for the father of the year who supposedly allowed 13 year olds to get drunk and smoke and have co-ed sleeping arrangements.
Who called the police?
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)I'm sorry but his anecdote really doesn't mean shit to me. I feel for the guy given the circumstances. It sounds awful. But that really doesn't mean the 13 year old girl wasn't a victim.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)When boys have more freedom to explore budding sexuality, and girls are condemned for it, as has been, and still is to some degree, traditional in our culture, this kind of scenario is more likely to happen. It didn't happen to me, nor to anyone I grew up with. In my experience, I had a hell of a lot more to worry about from my mom's boyfriends than I ever did from the horny boys at school or in my social group.
I certainly never worried about this situation for my sons.
My concern is this: it's a pretty effective propaganda/manipulation tool to put stories like these out for public consumption in such a way that public perception is led to believe that it is much, much, much more probable, or more frequent, than reality, while de-emphasizing actual rape.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)And then sometimes even when you prove yourself innocent, it isn't enough to prevent a prosecution.. Just look at the Duke Lacrosse case. People believed the accuser without any shred of evidence. Feminists, Al Sharpton, NAACP, etc.. the mob didn't care about the truth.
Right now, there are several cases working through the court system of men who have been expelled or suspended from school based on nothing at all but an allegation and not a shred of evidence.
Even 28 Harvard law professors have come together to strongly condemn new college campus rules regarding sexual assault allegations. They say it violates the rights of due process, current laws, and Title IX of the Civil Rights Act....
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-10-15/harvard-law-professors-condemn-campus-sexual-assault-policy
The American justice system is based on the premise that guilt must be proven in a court of law beyond reasonable doubt. Every modern system of law in the civilized and democratic world is based on this premise. It's unfortunate that we have radical elements in our midst that want this changed in situations that suit their agenda.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)getting away with rape?
P.S. An accusation from an alleged victim is evidence, whether it be rape, fraud, etc.
P.P.S. This person was not prosecuted.
P.P.P.S. You have zero doubts this anonymous story is 100% truthful, accurate, and honest?
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Benjamin Franklin said it's "better 100 guilty go free than put a single innocent in jail."
Humans tried it the other way around several times throughout history where people are guilty until proven innocent. It was disastrous. It led to incredible abuses of power and violations of human rights. Such a system should never exist in the modern world.
If the accusation is considered evidence, so too is the other side of the story. And if a prosecutor or grand jury says the accusation doesn't rise to the level of guilt beyond reasonable doubt...then there is no case.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)loose so they can rape between them hundreds if not thousands of women than it is to have one guy get thrown in jail wrongly.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)should walk, even with one innocent.
as much as we enjoy that saying, some seem to enjoy more the verbal depiction of a 100 rapists allowed to rape.
and more
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Another way to put it would be that putting an innocent person in jail is an injustice that is 100 times worse than letting a guilty person go free.
What's worse in your mind, that Darren Wilson and George Zimmerman is walking free OR an innocent man served 30 years for a murder and rape he didn't commit?
Which is a worse injustice in your mind?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)If I had my way, every rapist on the planet would rot in a dank hole forever, but I still believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)This isn't even a convincing made-up scenario.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)I don't read them and neither should DUers.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)on a DISCUSSION board!
This is sarcasm, by the way. If you don't like a particular subject, feel free not to click on it.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)sarcasm, I mean.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I've actually seen the same thing expressed without sarcasm.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)And so many people thinking teens having sex is statutory rape.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... meaningful in some way to his charges.
Had he been much older, it would have been that way in my state. At 16, you can be arrested for having sex with a 13-year-old, or at 15 with a 12-year-old.
LexVegas
(6,030 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)seaglass
(8,171 posts)A letter to ...
We will pay £25 for every Letter to we publish. Email family@guardian.co.uk or write to Family Life, The Guardian, Kings Place, 90 York Way, London N1 9GU. Please include your address and phone number
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/aletterto
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)If his story is true and she actually falsely accused him of rape rather than him raping her and then claiming she consented, perhaps he should take his anger and frustration out on his fellow males.
It's very simple. False accusations are uncommon compared to the number of verified rapes, and they are extremely rare when you consider the countless rapes that go unreported each year.
His story would be easier to believe if so many men didn't have an inability to keep their urges in check.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)Post and scurry on back to DI
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)nt
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)seaglass
(8,171 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)upset over rape of a 13 yr old, or a false claim against a 15yr old? or MRA talking point that false claims exceed actual rapes?
this was for the OP's amusement?
pathetic.
fuck
i do take note that he does not participate in this thread. just gather his guys around him to see if he stirred shit, and insult
why i may address him differently than others in that group? i respected him more. now he has let us know exactly what he is about. i do not respect that.
seaglass
(8,171 posts)I don't know why this thread would be viewed as anything more than flamebait. This is a discussion forum, the OP did not engage in any discussion. The first responses were within 15 minutes of the thread being posted. Maybe he needed to run out for milk.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)well. with some on the thread, i appreciated where they took me in thought.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Maybe it's something for people to think about and discuss. Just because you don't take the subject seriously doesn't mean that nobody else does.
What is so insulting about posting an op-ed piece from a news site?
seaglass
(8,171 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I assume I'm still allowed to disagree.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That's a point you might like to consider too.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)seaglass
(8,171 posts)it was a letter that the writer was paid for. We just disagree on the OPs intent.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my serious posts in this thread. 3. intent matters which was a part of the serious discussion in this thread, you will note, if you are at all observant.
see how some like to redefine posters?
what seaglass did (see, more serious on the reasons certain posters post certain things.) was show us past behavior that squares with present behavior. that matters. we do the same when we discuss fox news or any number of propaganda groups.
piece of cake for me.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I've seen it for a long time.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I didn't see any factual errors.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the 13 year old girl's recollection matches his?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)The Rest of The Story.
...
Good ... Day !
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)In the grand scheme of things, perhaps false accusations are "rare", but it would be wrong to simply dismiss this man's experience as an abberation or just collateral damage in a broader effort to apprehend real rapists.