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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMichael Brown Robbed Convenience Store, Stole Cigarillos, Dorian Johnson Says
Michael Brown robbed a Ferguson, Missouri, convenience store of two handfuls of cigarillos just minutes before Officer Darren Wilson fatally shot him on Aug. 9, according to his friend Dorian Johnsons testimony before a St. Louis County grand jury. Wilson testified Browns possession of the cigarillos was the impetus behind the encounter that ultimately led to his death.
Wilson avoided indictment on criminal charges Monday after the grand jury decided there was a lack of probable cause to suggest that he committed a crime. The decision generated widespread outrage, particularly in Ferguson, where police used tear gas to subdue crowds that started fires and destroyed property.
In the days and months after Browns death, the convenience store robbery was considered a major factor in determining his and Wilsons motives during their fatal encounter. Initial documents identified Brown as the prime suspect in the theft, which was captured on video, but Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said Aug. 15 Wilson did not stop Brown on suspicion of robbery. Wilsons supporters pointed to the robbery as proof of Browns moral failings while critics said Wilsons actions were reprehensible whether Brown was guilty or not.
Johnson, 22, who lived near Brown, had known Big Mike for about three months by the time of his death. The pair didnt hang out every day, but Johnson felt comfortable enough with Brown to introduce him to his girlfriend and young daughter. He tried to mentor the younger man, he said, and the two would discuss anything from the latest sports news to their plans for the future.
http://www.ibtimes.com/michael-brown-robbed-convenience-store-stole-cigarillos-darren-wilson-shooting-dorian-1729359
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)This is a conservative source and a who cares story, does not demand the death sentence decided on the sop by a pumped up cop guy with a gun. or in other words bullshit
mattclearing
(10,091 posts)Johnson contradicted Wilson's account in significant ways. This article is cherry-picked to give the worst impression of Brown while side-stepping the elements of Johnson's testimony which were unfavorable to the writer's (and Wilson's) narrative.
Response to hollysmom (Reply #1)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... people they're supposed to serve.
The FPD is there to take, not to give
Enrique
(27,461 posts)this OP appears to be in response to people still in denial that Brown robbed the store.
If you want to ask someone "who cares", why not direct it at the people still putting a lot of effort into denying that reality.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... human being.
The racist are continually using the robbery as justification to label Brown as a threat as if the robbery didn't happen then Brown would be alive...
Sick
very sick
Socal31
(2,484 posts)uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... which the FPD only called a robbery after Brown was killed
No.. the store incident had nothing to do with Wilsons motivations... I don't believe Wilson needed to back up into two teenagers after he told them to get out of the street...
NONE of that had nothing to do with what happened at the store...
It makes people feel good to connect the too but it takes beliving what the overtly oppressive and criminal FPD says...
I pray the civil rights suite the citizens have on the FPD suck them dry to the bone
Socal31
(2,484 posts)But nobody is really arguing that point. Strong-arm robbery does speak to state of mind around the same time frame. The reason this thread was made seems to be because there are people posting blogs saying it didn't happen.
I have yet to see anyone on DU say that because it happened, he should be killed in the street.
What I see in the video is behavior that lends credibility to the fact that Brown was capable of being out of line and violent. Still, not a death sentence, so don't remind me that he didn't deserve to die
A series of events put Brown, an immature and seemingly irrational man, and Wilson, an immature, poorly-trained, and frightened officer in the same place at the same time.
Being a public officer trusted with a firearm and powers of arrest, of course the responsibility to diffuse the situation falls on the older party in a position of authority. He had a clear opportunity to avoid using deadly force once they were out of the car. His mistake was far worse, since it directly lead to the death of an unarmed man.
The proper outcome was Brown in the back of the cruiser looking at felony charges, and Wilson having an epiphany that if he can lose control of a situation that fast, and be that afraid of someone about the same size as him, then maybe he chose the wrong career. He still ended up coming to that realization, but at the cost of a young life.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... the street PERIOD...
I've heard too many people say ... he robbed the store so of course he attacked a cop!!!
That's bullshit
Socal31
(2,484 posts)Are fairly well accepted as probable. It's after the fight in the car, with Brown actually preventing the first two rounds from firing, then running, that the responsibility shifts from Brown to Wilson.
Some say he had his hands up, Wilson said he started charging him and felt he had to shoot. I believe the distance was too far for an immanent threat of life, hands up or down or anywhere. A civilian would be in jail with that story.
By not immediately discounting the parts that reflect negatively on Brown, the important and life-ending sequence at the end can be analyzed. Conceding that there were multiple bone head actions by multiple characters is in no way suggesting someone deserved to die. Or the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comment I saw (suggesting he might not have deserved to die, but should have known it was a possibility), which is just as big of a bag of horseshat.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)I have some serious doubts about the events that lead up to it. And your probable doesn't discount them.
Socal31
(2,484 posts)But since we weren't there, giving more weight to the most likely sequence of events is all we can do.
Having doubts about the initial confrontation sounds as if you are saying most likely scenario was Wilson being wiley enough to stage everything so he could run him down and shoot him.
The truth is somewhere in the middle of Brown being a demon monster who could only be stopped with numerous gunshots, and Wilson pre-meditating a murder of a minority just for fun.
I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone claiming too close to one absolute or the other.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)that dared to mouth off to a cop that ordered him (rudely) out of the street. Wilson who had already passed him by then shoved the car in reverse till he was next to them. It seems he may have grabbed Brown from the window while pulling his gun out and Brown tried to shove him off. At which point Wilson probably fired twice. Brown ran down the street and a pissed of Wilson followed him while his "friend" high tailed it the other way.
That is my guess on the initial confrontation based on what I have learned during my life.
You obviously have different experiences and guess differently.
But neither of us really knows.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And pushing the man into account, why aren't you taking the fact Wilson was fired from his last job because of racism? Seems to me Mike Brown didn't listen to Wilson so Wilson turned his car around and wanted to teach Mike Brown a lesson.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)What's more gob smacking is people are giving the people who lied multiple times about what went on and didn't even have the balls to file report...
any benefit of the doubt...
that's aweful
stop it
regards
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)You accept any of their well coordinated intimidating lies you want as 'probable'.
Stop including anyone but yourself in that statement.
Response to Socal31 (Reply #13)
marym625 This message was self-deleted by its author.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And never reported it, no. Can't be arrested when there's no complaints of a robbery
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)The cop needed to non-violently subdue Brown, arrest him, charge him with a crime, and let the judicial process take its course.
simak
(116 posts)And "non-violent" is a two way street.
There is no doubt in my mind that Wilson did not show Brown the sort of respect we often get from police.
Irrespective of that, when a cop tells me to do something I comply. Respect is a two-way street, and even a rude cop is still an armed man with the authority to use force and the right to defend himself from violent resistance. I can't give the kid a pass for doing something I would never dream of doing.
Finally, even if the cop was indicted and convicted Mike Brown would still be dead. I think if we could send a message to Brown that justice was served he would still regret being dead.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)...and therein lies the problem:
We have one man's testimony about what happened believed while the testimony of several eyewitnesses is dismissed as lies.
Sorry, but Michael Brown did not deserve to die for this. Policemen take on the job to "serve and protect" (what a laugher these days), knowing full well that they are placing themselves in harm's way... Children should not be born with the idea that someday they will die because a cop overreacts and is thinking only of his own skinny butt.
simak
(116 posts)I do not believe that "white cop shoots black kid" is automatically probable cause. It was very generous of the prosecutor to bring this before the grand jury in the first place. I wouldn't have expected it to even get that far.
I don't suppose we'd ever find video evidence of your own kid roughing up a store clerk. We shouldn't put it past Brown to do other things your kid would never do.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)simak
(116 posts)And mere disagreement is not probable cause, either.
I interpret 12 shots as eleven wasted opportunities for Mike Brown to take that cop more seriously. Apparently Brown interpreted them as a sign of his own invincibility.
Are we going to charge the cop with provocation for firing so many non-lethal shots?
marym625
(17,997 posts)Back Dorian Johnson.
And don't forget, Wilson is a known racist fired from his last job because of it.
Wilson should be charged for shooting indiscriminately in a residential area. Both he and the people in the home he shoot into are lucky no one else was hurt.
One of the most horrible things I have seen on DU; "I interpret 12 shots as eleven wasted opportunities for Mike Brown to take that cop more seriously."
So you think that the killer shot wasn't wasted?
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)gunned down for a robbery? I do not think so. Frigging cop is in the wrong and there is no justification for the cop shooting him.
I cannot believe I am seeing some DUers on here defending Wilson. A child was murdered and by all accounts he did not attack Wilson.
Your post is so sad!
simak
(116 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)He can't be called a child anymore?
He's more deserving of death because he's bigger than the average 16 year old?
Kids need to turn in their "kid" card when they reach a certain height?
UGH. This reminds me of so many years ago when my then 3-year-old daughter was told by some busybody idiot to "act her age" because she was taller than the normal toddler.
I say again, UGH.
simak
(116 posts)I'll bet your 16-year-old knows better. So why didn't Mike Brown? Are we gonna blame that on the cop too?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I can only hope he behaves and remembers what his mama taught him when he walks out the door. It doesn't work that way always; however, he should NEVER be shot at 12 times for it.
No, what I'm gonna "blame on the cop" is murder and the inability to do his job with a clear mind when working with children. His own unhinged testimony (really? "demonic?" "hulking?" I don't want a man with those types of issues ever "protecting" anyone).
My kid IS a kid. Michael Brown WAS a kid. It is not safe to say anything. Their minds and emotions don't grow with their heights.
simak
(116 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)simak
(116 posts)The whole idea of minor status is that a parent or guardian is responsible for the minor's actions. With that responsibility comes the authority to supervise them until they're sufficiently socialized to be out on their own. The parents' responsibility, not the cop's.
And the police receive no instruction to waive their right to self defense for juvenile delinquents. Just as they are not instructed to allow minors to break laws. And just as citizens do not waive their rights when those rights are threatened by children.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Robbery is not a capital offense.
Twelve shots should never have been fired.
The cop's responsibility in total. Thank DOG he resigned. Let us hope he never picks up a gun again.
simak
(116 posts)But threatening police is still dangerous, because they don't need to wait for due process to put you down.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Mr. Wilson was denied a severance; I find that telling.
simak
(116 posts)He resigned. Nobody gets a severance for quitting.
locdlib
(176 posts)been fired and charged with murder.
bluesbassman
(19,358 posts)When dealing with anyone regardless of age. Too many LEOs seem to have this concept backwards.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Response to bluesbassman (Reply #52)
Post removed
bluesbassman
(19,358 posts)Your boy Wilson should get a medal. Or something.
Response to bluesbassman (Reply #60)
Post removed
uncle ray
(3,155 posts)oh, wait. he fucking DID.
There is no shortage of witnesses - black witnesses - who say he did not. Do you really know he did, or are you just choosing your witnesses based on what they said?
marym625
(17,997 posts)Don't forget that some witnesses that said his hands weren't up are still not backing Wilson. Huge difference between didn't see it, weren't up but to the side and "about to charge like he was going to run through the bullets"
To believe he would stop running for his life to turn and charge some crazed person shooting up the neighborhood, is to believe a fairytale. Or more accurately, a lie by a cop who didn't follow any police protocol
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
Fired at close range, blood splatters. Another test that seems to be missed by the way.
Just like the forensics don't prove Michael Brown wasn't shot while running away. The one shot in his arm could have come from front or back per reports from at least 2 of the autopsies. I think all 3 but I can't remember the third for sure.
You didn't answer me
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
marym625
(17,997 posts)I thought you meant in the vehicle.
You still haven't answered my question
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)It wasn't relevant to whether or not Wilson's story and behavior made sense and should be questioned.
That was relevant information for a defense, but not for an indictment.
Putting the victim on trial is a common defense strategy. The prosecutor participated and everyone is shouting about this incident as if it absolves an unrelated behavior in a different location.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)made another one to defend your hero Wilson.
Slowly but surely you are outing yourself! The thing is, you cannot repress how you really feel for too long!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)There's a lot of racist logic at play here on DU by people who are ostensibly defending Brown.
Let me spell it out:
1. If Brown was A Good One, then he didn't take the cigars.
2. If Brown did take the cigars, then he wasn't A Good One.
3. If Brown wasn't A Good One, then he deserved to get shot.
4. Since he didn't deserve to get shot, then he was A Good One and he can't have taken the cigars.
5. If someone alleges that Brown took the cigars, then they are saying that he wasn't A Good One and that he deserved to get shot.
You see the racism?
It's respectability politics.
Dead white people are allowed to be train wrecks and we still defend them, but if dead black people weren't saints, then they weren't Good Ones and they probably got what they deserved. This logic strips black people of their humanity.
I'm capable of being disappointed in Mike Brown for stealing while also believing that this case shines a (much needed) light on systematic racism and oppression.
Just because Marquette Frye was probably driving drunk doesn't mean that there wasn't hella racism and police brutality happening in Watts.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)Now run along a spew whatever you want on here! Maddy was right, but you survived her!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Nice of you to side with that sexist troll.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Do you think that's cool?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)He wouldn't have shot at a teenager running away a total of 12 times
If Wilson was a good one he wouldn't have been shooting in a residential area risking the lives of innocent people, including children. He's damn lucky the shot that went in that home didn't kill someone.
If Wilson was a good one he wouldn't have pulled his gun on people walking in the street.
If Wilson was a good one he would have carried his taser even though it was uncomfortable
If Wilson was a good one he wouldn't have lied to the grand jury about knowing about the shoplifting. (Check the records - his story change from what he initially reported to the detective)
If Wilson was a good one he wouldn't have been fired from his last job because of racism.
If Wilson was a good one he would have followed protocol and Michael Brown would be alive.
If Wilson was a good one he wouldn't have been shopping his story to the highest bidder before the Grand jury announcement came out.
If Wilson was a good one and wanted his story told to exonerate himself he would have looked for the most reputable, not the most money.
And who are you to call people who defend Mike Brown racists? Because a kid was shot and killed without reason, something that never would have happened with a good cop, and people defend that they're racist?
Shame in you doesn't begin to cover it
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Johnson has stated this in every LEO he's given.
Brown's actions in the convenience store really have nothing to do with his being killed. However, the Ferguson police dept. has done an admirable job tying the two incidents together.
simak
(116 posts)That is not the same as saying there is no relationship.
If the kid manhandled the clerk like that, then it seems more believable that he would engage the cop. And it certainly gives him a motive to engage. Even if the cop really did not know about the robbery.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)And just because he's 18 doesn't make him, mentality wise, more than a kid. Sorry, but I'm in the Dorian Johnson camp... I believe his tale, a story that's never changed over a tale that has changed numerous times. Johnson may not be telling the whole truth but he's consistently telling his truth--Wilson, not so much.
Besides, there's a history in Ferguson between the police and its African-American residents. Brown knew that history, people throughout the community know that history. It's almost like saying that it makes sense that someone would "charge" towards someone shooting at them. The only people I know of that do that are people in the military--they run towards gun fire but sane (or non-military trained) human beings don't.
I think Michael Brown would no more rough up a police officer than he would "charge" towards someone who was trying to shoot him, especially if he's being stopped for a strong arm robbery... why add an additional charge to your sheet?
simak
(116 posts)But if he does bully the clerk, then you need to presume things you can't possibly know for sure in order to dismiss it as evidence he would resist a cop. It is what it is.
Likewise, you rely on Brown's presumed rationality to insist he wouldn't attack a policeman. Where do you suppose that rationality was when he was stealing the smokes? He couldn't be expected to know that robbery will lead to an encounter with police, but we can all be assured that if the cops show up he will rationally be obedient? Not buying it.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)entire thing to make sense. It's easy for Brown to bully the store clerk, he's bigger and the clerk is unarmed. But with your rational, he's going to see an unarmed store clerk and an armed police officer as the same easy target for bullying. Yep, you've changed my mind, that makes perfect sense.
For the most part, people only bully people they can get away with bullying--like a much smaller store clerk. I would imagine with the history the members of the community in Ferguson have with their local constabulary, they know they can't bully the police--it's quite the other way around (which is one of the reasons the Fed is investigating the Ferguson PD).
That said, I'd imagine after he was shot the first time and having a second shot fired at him, he really knew he couldn't bully a police officer. As a matter of fact, he knew it so much, he ran away. Even Wilson admits he runs away in his grand jury testimony.
The threat to Wilson is actually over once Brown runs away.
Lets consider this--if we believe every single word that Wilson says, his getting out of the SUV actually puts himself in danger of further harm from the runaway "Hulk Hogan Demon." He could have waited for back-up (which he apparently called for at some point during the scuffle and Brown running away) and followed in his SUV. It's obvious at this point Brown doesn't have a weapon, especially if he was fighting for Wilsons' gun--I mean, why try and take the officers' weapon if he has his own, right? So Brown runs away without having taken Wilsons' weapon. How is he a danger at that point if Wilson doesn't get out of his vehicle? Let's say for the sake of argument that Brown runs away (and Wilson stays in his vehicle waiting for back-up) but decides for some unknown, crazy reason that he's Mike Tyson and wants round 2 with the cop...I'm pretty certain SUV vs. "Hulk Hogan Demon" the SUV wins every time.
simak
(116 posts)What I need is for the innocent victim to appear innocent before I side against the police whose job, in a nut shell, is to protect the community from people like Mike Brown.
Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said Brown saw the clerk and the cop as the same easy target. What Brown established, on video for the world to see, is that he will use force to prevail, and was in fact doing so only minutes before the encounter. And what all this means is that you now have to get inside his head to rationalize how a person of questionable judgment would never possibly attack a cop.
I don't for a second believe everything Wilson said. But I also don't believe things would have come out any differently if Brown was white, and I don't believe it would have gone to the grand jury if Brown had been white. So I'm not going to hold it against Wilson just because the suspect was black.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Wouldn't it be great if all victims were innocent?
Like prostitutes that get raped...
Or drug addicts that get killed by drug dealers...
Or gang bangers who get shot in drive-by shootings...
Or prisoners that get killed by other inmates in prison...
Or underage college girls that get drunk at parties then raped...
Not every victim of a crime is an innocent but they're no less deserving of their rights.
As I stated in my previous reply to you, once the confrontation was over at the SUV and Brown ran away, he was no longer the aggressor and became the victim. It doesn't matter what he did at the store and it doesn't matter what he did at the car. He had removed himself from any violence at that point and Wilson became the aggressor.
simak
(116 posts)tavernier
(12,368 posts)The conclusion as to how it happened in my mind:
MB seems to be a kid with some anger and frustration issues (aren't they all at that age), but especially when growing up in a racist town and state. He has come to learn to use his size to battle his frustrations because he knows his large frame and angry scowl can be intimidating and threatening. It looked to me like the convenience store owner was about to pee his pants, in fear of his life. But to a kid like MB, the theft of a few cigars and the machismo behavior was more of a teen prank, a way to impress his older friend on a Saturday night. In his head, it wasn't really a crime: he didn't rob the cash register or punch out the shop owner.
Minutes later on the street a cop cruises by and MB and friend are told to get out of the street. Still feeling a bit macho, MB challenges the cop. They probably exchange words and DW feels safe in his car until he realizes that he has just been punched in the face. From there the story gets blurry, but I think when it dawned on MB that DW was going for his gun, he knew things had gone too far, and decided to retreat. But of course by that time DW had plenty of motive (in his mind) to continue. As MB was retreating he could have shot him in the leg, or both legs, if he was so worried about the "hulk" charging him. We know he had plenty of bullets, and they do train officers to target shoot, right? But suddenly MB, AFTER leaving the squad car, KNOWING DW has a gun, decides to turn and charge him? I don't think so.
I don't think MB was an Angel. I think he was an angry young man who had probably pulled off similar petty thefts in the past and gotten away by bullying and intimidating clerks.
I don't think DW was in the right line of work. I think he was a racist cop in a racist town and enjoyed his role of intimidation. I think he is hiding behind his excuses of fear for his life, to admit that he didn't have to shoot to kill.
It was just a matter of time before these two came together.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Not to mention a shot to the leg has a pretty good chance of hitting the femoral artery which will kill in a couple of minutes.
http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)It was almost literally noon.
tavernier
(12,368 posts)Not sure how I got the "nighttime" impression; possibly because all the film I've seen from the town since then has been taken at after dark protests.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I've seen quite a few people make that mistake.
Similarly, a lot of people seemed to think the Trayvon shooting went down at some ungodly hour but it was really only 7.
Interesting.
CanonRay
(14,080 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)Why dismiss his eyewitness testimony where it actually mattered?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)committed murder. Murder wins! Sorry. It was murder. A jury does not need to indict to know that. Wilson should be "under" the jail.
Brown challenged a cop, and the cop defended himself with completely predictable lethal force. Nobody claims that the kid deserved to die for the theft.
The cigarillos simply explain how Brown was asking for a visit from the police, and how he might be both capable and willing stand up to them.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)I should have known better.
simak
(116 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Reasons to murder? There is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, that Brown attacked Wilson. Evidence of a struggle is debatable as to "who" was the aggressor other than Wilson's words that save his ass. The other party is dead. Very convenient for Wilson.
simak
(116 posts)There is evidence, and there were witnesses.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)eom.
Derek V
(532 posts)So?
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Is that if he told the truth about what happened at the convienent store then he is likely telling the truth about the incident.
The "Get the F on the sidewalk" contrast to "Hey guys, why don't you walk on the sidewalk."
The first is more like what a cop would say but if he didn't realize he matched the suspect's description until after he said that, cops don't usually cop an attitude for jaywalking (unless you aren't white dealing).
Then Wilson said that Brown said "What the F did you say?" If this part is true, then Dorian's description feels more honest. It's all about how you say thing -- Christoph Waltz for comedic effect used tact in the face of unreasonable aggressive tones & Inglorious Basterds he was a polite Nazi. Point is, how you say things can lead people to react a certain way.
I wasn't sitting there with a recorder so I don't know for certain what factually happened. The 3 people with a front row seat -- 2 are different accounts and the third one is dead.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)unreadierLizard
(475 posts)You'll ruin the narrative that everyone and their mother is pushing about Brown! He was a kind boy who was never in trouble.
Even though all of the evidence shows that this is full of horse-shit and he was, by the looks of the case, another wanna-be gang banger who tried to act tough and got shot down for it after reaching for an officer's weapon. Go after the REAL police brutality cases like Tamir Rice - not a case of "I fought the law and I lost".
Oh and if you disagree with the majority here then you're a racist fascist sexist KKK member who hates everyone including all black people! Because of your opinion, God forbid.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)NONE of the evidence supports your crap--only the assertion of Darren Wilson, who's kind of on the line to concoct a justification for his actons.
As for your last line--if the shoe fits, wear it.