Am I a bad liberal if I'm starting to get Tired of this Shit?

[arcane1]

Seventy-nine people, including six juveniles, were arrested and five police officers were injured during the violent downtown protests in San Francisco on Friday night, Police Chief Greg Suhr said at a Monday news conference.

Of those arrested in the demonstration — which sought to oppose Black Friday shopping and express outrage over the fatal police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. — 23 people were San Francisco residents, Suhr said, with 56 coming from other California cities or from out of state.

Four people were booked into San Francisco County Jail — one on suspicion of assaulting an officer, two over outstanding warrants, and one on suspicion of possessing goods that police said were taken from a looted RadioShack.

-snip-

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/SFPD-79-arrested-5-cops-wounded-in-ugly-protest-5928429.php


There are some good videos at the link too.


I'm tired of seeing my city get destroyed all the fucking time! Just a few weeks ago, it was Giants fans trashing the place in "victory", and now it's these assholes.

SFPD is the most protest-friendly PD you can find. We are always having spontaneous marches of some kind or another in this town, and the SFPD response is always the same: they ride motorcycles ahead of the marchers to block cross traffic, allowing the marchers to cross intersections safely. They look out for the protester's well-being, even when they marched down Turk a few years ago to take over an unused church building.

Thanks to these idiots, that good will is probably gone now, and every peaceful march will be suspect

There were, after all, peaceful demonstrators that night. But nobody will ever know, because they'll always be associated with destruction.

And please don't try to convince me that all 79 people were cops. I've seen enough protests in this town, and I've seen plenty of assholes too. Were the World Series riots of 2010 and 2014 all caused by cops too? If so, there were dozens of them.

Assholes, ruining it for everyone since the dawn of time

[jwirr]

1. Depends where you are placing the blame.

[arcane1]

8. On the individuals responsible for the actions, naturally.

[jberryhill]

12. As if it can always be squarely placed

I believe both of the following statements are true:

1. There are legitimate grievances which lead to built up frustration that eventually finds an outlet if they cannot be resolved through ordinary processes of petition for redress.

2. There are *some* people who have unresolved internal issues who might otherwise engage in anti-social behavior, but who have found that channeling it through a moral cause of convenience allows them to believe they are expressing righteous moral outrage, thus providing justification for such behavior.

Those statements are, I further believe, independent of political orientation.

Take "the abortion clinic bomber" - I think that sort of person would be firebombing something, even if they did not profess to have a moral belief of some kind about abortion.

Or... take people who join the military. Some do it out of a sense of duty, patriotism, family tradition, or even lack of economic alternatives, and some do it because "I want to shoot and kill people legally". It's that second sort - whose primary aim is to engage in a particular behavior with a fig leaf of moral justification - who are damaged individuals.

edit to add: this is not any sort of commentary on the persons or activities described in the OP. I don't know those people and certainly could not judge.

So what does that make me?

[arcane1]

15. It makes you rational

And that's a nice sight to see

[jberryhill]

22. Well I'm sure I can get a second opinion on that

[arcane1]

25. LOL I know the feeling :)

[Fumesucker]

51. You're also rather amusing sometimes

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. Martin Luther King Jr said...."riot is the language of the unheard"

[jberryhill]

31. Yes, that is what my point 1 is paraphrasing

That is correct.

It is also an opportunity for the unhinged to join in the fun.

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. and I am sure there were some unhinged that joined in the fun of the French Revolution too!

[jberryhill]

36. Indubitably

But the guy who was working the Place de la Concorde on the ground that, despite not caring about politics, he did rather enjoy chopping off heads, is a sociopath nonetheless.

[notadmblnd]

2. So, did you write an angry "I'm tired of this shit" screed when the Giants fans trashed your city?

I don't recall seeing one here.

[el_bryanto]

4. I don't know what your point is

The poster makes it clear that he found those incidents deplorable as well.

Is your response to say that since Giants fans did it, it is ok for these protesters to do it as well? That seems like an odd tack to take.

Bryant

[notadmblnd]

9. You can read into it what you like. However, I said no such thing.

[el_bryanto]

10. Than what is your point? Please elucidate. nt

[arcane1]

7. I did on Facebook, both years.

[truedelphi]

3. It said on the news that three of the looters caught last week by police had

Criminal records.

And most protesters are schooled in non-violence - but FBI and CIA and other agencies send in agent provacateurs. you an always tell who these people are - they try and incite anger and then try and persuade to violence.

Anyone reading Rolling Stone over the last several years knows that these agencies target mentally ill young adults, to go along with the program of violence. And they are willing to drive these young adults to the protests, and in once case, they took the mentally ill young adult out shopping for the stuff needed to make a bomb. Then after all the items needed had been purchased, this individual was arrested by police as being a terrorist. I forget how manyyears the poor thing ahd to do. This was someone who had a problem getting out of bed and into the shower on most days - but the agents got her to a shopping center for bomb purchases.

Gotta keep the Big For Profit Jails and Prisons filled to capacity, no matter how many decent shop owners lose out, and no matter how many mentally ill adults are pawns in a much bigger game.

[el_bryanto]

5. Do you have a link to that story? nt

[truedelphi]

49. Sure thing. May 2012 and here is the URL:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-fbi-entrapment-is-inventing-terrorists-and-letting-bad-guys-off-the-hook-20120515

[el_bryanto]

52. Thanks much. nt

[jberryhill]

23. I thought they mainly did this through dental implant radios

We have a quite prolific member who can provide a wealth of detail about that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11359144

[Bandit]

6. Do you think the Black Community is tired of this shit as well?

They have been enduring it a hell of a lot longer than you have..

[arcane1]

11. Because of Black Friday?

I'm not following.

Besides, there were an awful lot of white faces at that scene.

[upaloopa]

14. What does that mean?

Who has a right to be tired of this shit? Does it come down to race now?
The author of the OP is what not entitled to be tired of this shit?
Why divide people?

[yeoman6987]

13. Most of America, think it is over

They only know what is going on from local news and maybe the 30 minute World news. We are more aware of things going on. I know 100 percent I would not have heard this if not for DU. We get a huge education being on here. I am privileged for sure in that way.

[I_stand_4_oranges]

16. Tough tits..

Until things change in this country; expect more confrontations.

[arcane1]

17. And smashing other people's things will change what, exactly?

Besides making it harder to conduct peaceful protests?

Please, enlighten me with your tough talk!

[branford]

19. It'll definitely change things . . .

The police will become more popular, they'll procure more military hardware, all protesters will be viewed by the general public as potentially violent and destructive, and greater numbers of Americans will support the police when they claim they have no alternative but to deal the "malcontents" with a "heavy hand" for our safety and their own.

It will also probably help elect more "law and order" Republicans who will then support building more private prisons and other conservative programs.

I'm also fairly certain it will not help race relations in the country.

However, I could be totally wrong. Just look how everything went for Detroit since 1967 . . .

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. I imagine that is what the British said the morning after the Boston Tea Party!

And smashing other people's things will change what, exactly?

[arcane1]

44. It was British tea. Do you believe it was the police who provoked this behavior?

[tenderfoot]

53. Smashing people's shit - like we did to Baghdad with "shock and awe"

I see your point.

[840high]

45. Destroying is not the way to do it.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Basically yes.

Allow me to interpret this:

Suhr said officers had set up barricades to keep the protesters from an annual Christmas Tree lighting ceremony, but that the demonstrators broke through.

“At this point in time, breaking through the barricades, this was no longer a First Amendment march,” Suhr said Monday. “This march, if it ever was a First Amendment march, was hijacked by a criminal fringe element bent on destruction and criminal conduct. Were it not for the efforts of the officers and the leadership on the ground, it could have been far worse.”

When the people peacefully assembled to protest attempted to join a public event they were met with force by the SFPD, provoking a small riot.

I know the 1st amendment is obsolete, quaint, a relic of an era when a "free speech zone" would have been too ridiculous to propose with a straight face.

I support the right of the people to protest peacefully as they see fit not as the state sees fit. When that right is abrogated by agents of the state, all bets are off.

[arcane1]

21. Respectfully, you're wrong.

Were the police responsible for the World Series riots too?

I noticed you used the word "peacefully". In that, I agree.

[jberryhill]

24. Does one citizen gathering trump the other one?

to keep the protesters from an annual Christmas Tree lighting ceremony

You know, the Westboro Baptist Church folks would love to be graveside for their protests, but they aren't allowed.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. A public event is a public event. It is open to the public.

[jberryhill]

30. And the Westboro Baptist Church folks can certainly enter a public veteran's cemetery, yes?

And should the WBC determine to exercise their First Amendment right to scream like banshees on federal land open to the general public, they should be allowed to do so notwithstanding the minor inconvenience their exercise of liberty may be to those trying to conclude a funeral.

Yes?

[Warren Stupidity]

32. I support the WBC's first amendment rights too.

I know, only good guys should have rights, am I right?

[jberryhill]

47. Reasonable minds differ

as to whether one need ride every slippery slope at the amusement park or when consistency becomes doctrinal rigidity.

I'm willing to accept that Dove soap is 99 and 44/100% "pure" and the other 56/100% is presumably biohazardous toxic waste matter of some kind.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

56. So, the protesters got to create havoc at another peaceful assembly

I happen to believe that there's a fine line between free speech and civil disobedience. If the police were protecting the the other group's right to peacefully assemble and the protesters resisted, the protesters were engaging in unlawful behavior and deserved to be arrested.

Don't engage in civil disobedience if you aren't ready to pay the price.

[Warren Stupidity]

57. The protestors were, according to the SFPD, peaceful before they got corralled and barricaded by the

SFPD. So I reject your premise.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

58. It is my understanding that until they attempted to

interfere with the other group, everything was ok. If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about that.

But just to be clear, I do not think that they had a right to interfere with the other assembled group, and that they had a right to be protected from the protestors interfering in their assembly.

[arcane1]

61. Nobody was corralled in Union Square n/t

[JEFF9K]

27. A certain element on this site ...

seeks to redefine "liberal" in a way that is guaranteed to hurt the Democratic Party.

[LostInAnomie]

34. +1

[TBF]

35. I think there are actually

many liberals/progressives in the "love is all we need" camp. I'm not one of them but I do have empathy with that. Sadly I think it is going to get a lot of worse before it gets better. And it's not because the looters (or protestors or whomever) are at fault INDIVIDUALLY - it is because we have great SYSTEMIC problems in this country (not yelling, just emphasizing your use of the word "individual" as opposed to looking at the overall systemic problems).

As income inequality continues to worsen we are going to see the stress come out in a variety of ways - domestic abuse, lack of civility, destruction of property, violence in general. All of these things are more likely to happen when people feel like they have nothing to lose.

ETA - I did rec your post not because I necessarily agree with your POV, but because I do think it's a very important topic to discuss

[arcane1]

40. Thank you for your post. I suspect we agree much more than disagree.

Indeed, my gripe is only over certain specific activities, not the overall picture behind them.

Hell, I've been marching and protesting in this town for 13 years now, and 99% of them were pleasant and uneventful. I'm not happy with this latest trend. Plus, since I've most often seen this behavior in non-political contexts, it's hard to take it politically now.

Look at this asshole from 2010. Is he an angry, frustrated protester with a worthy cause? Nope, he's a Giants fan "celebrating" their victory:



THAT is what I'm f-ing sick of: using large crowds as cover for dickish behavior.

[TBF]

60. I hear you -

when we protested US involvement in El Salvador in the 80s (I'm old!) I can assure you there was none of that on the UW-Madison campus.

[NuclearDem]

37. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time shedding tears

over a few buildings and cars when a black family will never see their son again.

[arcane1]

42. I can feel bad about more than one thing at a time.

Perhaps you could too, if it were happening in your home town.

[Scootaloo]

38. Sorry, no one cares what you are "sick of"

Because what you are sick of is pretty fucking petty and inconsequential compared to what the people protesting are sick of. You know, the ongoing conduct of murders of brown people and miscarriages of justice against them, by the same men (and sometimes women) who take n oath to protect them?

[arcane1]

43. Am I only allowed to be sick of one thing? Can I support the cause yet decry the actions of a few?

Besides, you obviously cared enough to reply

[840high]

46. I care what he's sick of.

[snooper2]

59. did you read all the grand jury evidence yet?

[GeorgeGist]

39. So the World Series riots were OK with you and SFPD.

Seems to be what you're implying.

[arcane1]

41. Try actually reading the OP instead. I put Giants fans in the same category.

Quote:

I'm tired of seeing my city get destroyed all the fucking time! Just a few weeks ago, it was Giants fans trashing the place in "victory", and now it's these assholes.

[onecaliberal]

48. The people who are tired of this shit are

The black and brown folks who are constantly harassed by police and oppressed by the whole system. I don't know about bad liberal, definite lack of compassion or thought process about why there are protests to start with. Good thing people didn't think like that when the struggle for civil rights was taking place.

[arcane1]

50. There are many people tired of much shit, together.

[cally]

54. And, the destruction gets reported

instead of the reason for the initial protest. I'm furious about it, also. Fewer numbers will go out and protest because they do not want to be associated with the violence.

[arcane1]

62. And the cops will begin to anticipate and prepare for it :(

[Zorra]

55. Like JFK said, "those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution

inevitable".

Americans have The 4th of July; the French have Bastille Day. On July 14, 1789, an outraged group of Parisians stormed the Bastille, a fortress and prison in France where prisoners of influence were held, in hopes of capturing ammunition.

Shortly thereafter, King Louis XVI and his wife Marie Antoinette took refuge in Versailles as the violent peasants pillaged and burned châteaux, and destroyed records of feudal dues—this reaction is known as the grande peur (great fear).

For the peasant class, the Bastille stood as a symbol of the hypocrisy and corruption of the aristocratic government - controlled mostly by nobility and clergy. This important event marked the entry of the popular class into the French Revolution.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/99bastilleday.html

Maybe the 1% should get a clue. When there is no hope of improving intolerable conditions of injustice, equality, and ever increasing oppression, oppressed people become hopeless and angry, and they start to break shit The 1% should be wise and relinquish control of the government to the people, and allow a more just and equitable system to come into being.

Unfortunately, they believe themselves to be invincible in their gated communities and ivory towers; their greed and arrogance always supersedes any type of good judgment, so eventually, their heads are gonna roll, one way or another. They are surrounded, and there are very few of them, compared to a a 99% that grows more discontent and furious by the day.

The name Custer comes to mind.

I'm not advocating violent revolution. I'm just sayin', ya know?